There are not only two Pudens. There's the Holy Pudens (roman Senator), his Son (a high militarian). Father of #1 was also an Pudens, Rufus Pudens. The Pudens, Martialis has written about. An other militarian was the fifth. If somebody is interested (and speak german) - I'm the author of the Pudens-Article in the german Wiki: de:Pudens Kenwilliams 23:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
- What sparks this elaborate genealogical fantasy? Any gesture towards a source would be welcome. --
Wetman 04:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to know what sparks your contempt for the ideas of other's Wetman. We know from debates in other articles that you don't accept the association of Martials's Puden's with this one, but your continued categorizations only show your dogmatic close-mindedness. There are two debates here which these series of articles must outline, one debate which does not accept the association, and one that does. The only fantasy here is the one that conveys the sense that there is a monolithic reject of this association. --WikiRat 10:54, 4 November 2005 (EST)
OK, what we have:
- Holy Pudens. Roman Senator. Named Aquila Pudens, together with Priscilla (mother of St. Paul) father of 1) Novatus, 2) Praxedis, 3) Pudentiana, 4) Timotheus (known from the Bible), and 5) Rufus Pudens (both daughters seem to be fictive and they are not longer official Saints of the catholic church). About him there are a lot of legends. There are people who think he was a jew, born at Pontus (in my opinion a bad joke).
- Rufus Pudens, Son of the first. He was a roman officer. 2nd highest in Britain, behind Aulus Plautius at the time of emperor Claudius. There (again, seems to be a legend) he should have married a british noblewoman. And both should have been one of the first Christians in Britain. He isn't ficitve - but the most wo "know" is a legend.
- the there ist the Pudens of Martial - called Aulus Pudens (but Aulus seems to be incorrect) - and I also belive, he's an other Person. He was as Officier in Dacia - a little later than Rufus Pudens was.
- Titus Valerius Pudens - soldier at the 2nd Legion Adiutrix. was from Pannonia Superior, died in Britain (in Chester was fount his tomb in 1732)
- next Pudens was a Proconsul in Lycia-Pamphylia under Marcus Aurelius und Lucius Verus (PIR ² P 1064)
- L. Arrius Pudens - Consul in 165
- Q. Servilius - Consul in 166
- After all I must say thanks to Wetman - found a mistake. The Rufus Pudens who should be father of the first, St. Pudens seems to be a hagiographic person without any historical background. A (very) later invention. There are also al lot of more "Pudens" known epigraphically - but these are mostly Slaves or former Slaves of the known Senators (and their families). The six (or maybe five, maybe the Pudens of Martial is one of the other known ones.
@Wetman - from where it comes? It's my job after 5 years of study Ancient Histoy and Classical Archeplogy...
At last - sorry for my miserable english. Kenwilliams 16:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks KenWilliams, I think this is both helpful, and somewhere between my understanding and Wetman. We must be able to take this and rework a neutral article (possibly more)? Wetman? --WikiRat 00:06, 6 November 2005 (EST)
- There must be fantasies at work here in addition to these genealogies, since I have never expressed any thoughts about Martial's friend Pudens one way or the other. I have not edited the brief stub here, nor have I complained about the similarly childish genealogical nonsense at the entry Caractacus. The epigram of Martial was sparked by the marriage of his friend, whom he calls "Pudens" to a Claudia [1]; the connections among these various names are imaginary. An elaborate genealogical fantasy is not contempt, merely a description of facile connections of various Pudens, with no basis in inscriptions or texts. Apparently then, to judge from the above, there is no serious basis for drawing these connections, other than modern so-called "legends". --Wetman 06:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks, owner of all thruth! Kenwilliams 21:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- There must be fantasies at work here in addition to these genealogies, since I have never expressed any thoughts about Martial's friend Pudens one way or the other. I have not edited the brief stub here, nor have I complained about the similarly childish genealogical nonsense at the entry Caractacus. The epigram of Martial was sparked by the marriage of his friend, whom he calls "Pudens" to a Claudia [1]; the connections among these various names are imaginary. An elaborate genealogical fantasy is not contempt, merely a description of facile connections of various Pudens, with no basis in inscriptions or texts. Apparently then, to judge from the above, there is no serious basis for drawing these connections, other than modern so-called "legends". --Wetman 06:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- In light of Wetman's reservations, my understating, is similar to Kenwilliams, and though Kenwilliam’s native tongue is German, I will try to redo all of the articles on the Pudens family. Concede that Kenwilliams’s understanding of the Puden’s family is more advanced than my own, I will try to use Kenwilliams’ article as the bases for the English ones. I will ask KenWilliams to assist with the sourcing and try to convey Wetman’s reservations. --WikiRat 11:56, 7 November 2005 (EST)