Talk:Atalie Unkalunt/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 11:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Review

• I'll take this on, looking forward to working together again! Mujinga (talk) 11:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Yay! Thank you so much for looking at her. I look forward to your help in improving the article. SusunW (talk) 12:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Hiya I was actually thinking of you last week when I passed through London - I was hoping to get some pix for Gerlin Bean but sadly ran out of time. Thanks for nominating the article, wow what a fascinating life this woman had. And it's interesting Hoover had an American Indian VP. I'm confident we can get this to GA standard pretty easily, although I would point out I was able to find a few nitpicks in your referencing, which is unusual!! I'll put the article on hold now and await your replies. Mujinga (talk) 13:28, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
• How I wish we had photos for Bean, but so it goes. Thanks for looking at this one. SusunW (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks for the fast responses SusunW. On the Bean, hopefully I can sort it next time I'm passing through the UK. On the article, you already fixed the Brooklyn Daily Eagle issue, so I just have a few more nitpick spotchecks to discuss then we are done. Mujinga (talk) 21:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Yay that's it then. I've rejigged the Boston uni sentence, feel free to revert if you don't like it. Congrats on another good article! Mujinga (talk) 14:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• Pictures - well done you and GRuban for finding so many pix. All are appropriately licensed and relevant. Links could be made to YMCA, Fire & Fireside and Charles Curtis if you want. Alt texts are brill. Mujinga (talk) 12:47, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks! I honestly rely on George's help for photos. He's the master. I can do research on them but then I am not 100% confident without other eyes. Adam Cuerden's restoration on that Curtis photo was brilliant! The original was in such bad shape, but he waved some magic wand and did his thing to make it lovely. I am always leery to link in photos if they are linked in text, because of overlink. SusunW (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Copyvio - earwig flags nothing of concern, I found a bit of close paraphrasing to be mentioned below Mujinga (talk) 12:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Article's coverage is broad and focused, it is neutral tone. The history is stable. Mujinga (talk) 12:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Reflayout is great, no original research and sources seem reliable pending a few spotchecks below Mujinga (talk) 12:50, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• A few comments on prose below and I added a couple of commas in the text, hope that's ok

Prose

• "published books" in the lead - her achievements are impressive, but books plural? she published the book of poetry, what else?

•  Done Changed it to read "published a book" SusunW (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• names: lead gives Atalie Unkalunt and Iva J. Rider; infobox gives those plus Atalie Rider, Iva Josephine Rider, Josie Rider; article boday starts off "Atalie Unkalunt, which translates to Sunshine Rider, was known as Josie Rider to her white friends" so it's a bit confusing. I wiould expect "Her English name Iva J. Rider appears on the final rolls of the Cherokee Nation." to appear in the body somewhere. also why take this particular sentence to start the body: should her birth not come first and what language does the name translate from?

• Touchy subject. Her birth name was Atalie Unkalunt. It is very doubtful that she ever took Iva Rider as her own name, but more likely that it was assigned to her at the Indian boarding school (which was the usual way English names were bestowed), but as far as the government was then concerned, that was her legal name, which is why it's imperative to say that, since it is what appears on her official enrollment record. The fact that she never used the name Iva (she could've been Princess Iva on stage, but wasn't) and preferred her "paleface friends" to call her Josie, pretty much suggests to me that she rejected the English name she was given, but all of those variants appear in sources, so I listed them. I have added translates from Cherokee to English for the first part and added "using their English names" to the end of "Thomas and his children, Ola, Mary Angeline, Ruth Belle, Phoeba Montana, Mittie Earl, Roscoe Conklin, Milton Clark, Iva Josephine, Cherokee Augusta, and Anna Monetta Rider, are shown on the final Dawes Rolls for the Cherokee Nation, except the oldest and youngest". SusunW (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Cool Mujinga (talk) 14:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• "except the oldest and youngest" - hard to parse, maybe better to put that info at end of sentence?

•  Done SusunW (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• "the white settlers would become the demise of Native people" reads funny to me - could you say the white settlers were the demise of Native people?

• I don't think so. In the plot, it hadn't happened yet, it was something that was going to happen. I've changed it to would cause the eventual demise, if that works, then  Done SusunW (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Great thanks for the clarification! Mujinga (talk) 20:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Benedict alleged that Unkalunt had stolen some silk material, furnishings, and clothing, originally valued at $355 but reported in court to be worn and threadbare items worth about ten dollars from Ainslie" suggest something like Benedict alleged that Unkalunt had stolen from her father some silk material, furnishings, and clothing, originally valued at $355 but reported in court to be worn and threadbare items worth about $10

•  Done SusunW (talk) 15:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Unkalunt testified that Ainslie was upset by her rejection and to hurt her backed his daughter's claims" suggest "Unkalunt testified that Ainslie was upset by her rejection and in order to hurt her backed his daughter's claims."

•  Done SusunW (talk) 15:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• sidecomment - this scandal sounds really acrimonious :( love gone awry can be horrible but a daughter going to court and all the nasty racist angles on this make it seem like a nightmare for Unkalunt

• Agreed. If you read the sources, I left out a lot of the worst of those racist claims, not just about the trial, but good grief many of those newspaper articles were hard to read. Money combined with a sense entitlement can make people do horrible things. Frankly, I was really angry at the treatment of her by the press in general when I finished writing her article and thankfully George stepped up and worked through to make it neutral. People can be awful.SusunW (talk) 15:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• A few sources I've read eg the Encyclopedia of the American Indian say she was a soloist with the Boston Symphony so is that worth mentioning to emphasise she wasn't just singing but was the main attraction

•  Done added "as a soloist. SusunW (talk) 16:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• On the princess thing, this is obviously very sensitive stuff and I am far from being an expert, but some sources claim she was a "real princess" whereas the article makes it seem as if it was more of a performing name. Any thoughts on that?
  • to add, now i see at trial in ref46NYT she said she wasn't an actual princess

• Indian princess is a stereotype. It was something made up by white people wanting to romanticize indigenous people and elevate certain people to an acceptable status so that society could interact with them, which of course could not happen if they were simply some lowly "Indian". For example, she said her father was a politician, the press called him a "chief" (he never was a headman, as far as I could determine). She used it for promotional purposes of her career but there are no royals in Native culture. SusunW (talk) 15:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification Mujinga (talk) 20:33, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Spotchecks

on this version

4 ewen & wollock wiki says: She was born on June 12, 1895, in Stilwell, Going Snake District of the Cherokee Nation Indian Territory to Josephine (née Pace) and Thomas Lafayette Rider (Dom-Ges-Ke Un Ka Lunt) - this is mostly backed by source but not "Going Snake District of the Cherokee Nation Indian Territory"

• Added a source. Statehood did not occur until 1907, so Indian Territory is a given, and references to Adair county are wrong, since it wasn't created until after statehood.[1] Her mom was white, so even though tribal membership usually stemmed from the mother's town, in this case, it was through her father. SusunW (talk) 17:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done Mujinga (talk) 20:34, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

25 BDE - information is present. opposite to what i say below about callam, here you summarise what the journalist says but you could just give the quote since you are using basically the same words

• To be honest, I personally do not like giving quotes in articles, but especially if it is not attributable to a person. There is not even a by-line, so it seems weird to quote an unknown someone. SusunW (talk) 17:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Well for me it's fine how you attribute it to the "reviewer for the Brooklyn Daily Eagle". The problem for me still is that the BDE says "Princess Atalie sang in a clear, rich voice, sympathetic and well sustained" and you say "described her voice as clear, rich, and well-sustained, giving sympathetic interpretation of the music". So I'd suggest just saying something like "A reviewer for the Brooklyn Daily Eagle said she "sang in a clear, rich voice, sympathetic and well sustained"". Mujinga (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

•  Done SusunW (talk) 20:48, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

28 callam p114 - the information is present; i'd question whether it's necessary to quote callam's description, and if you do want to, then you should attribute the quote. In addition our " depicted a general and exotic Native village" is a bit close to "it depicts an exoticized and generalized “Indian” village"

•  Done I've attributed it to Callam. Changed it to "a nondescript but exotic Native village". SusunW (talk) 17:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

59 callam p99 says "Her art appeared at the Art Alliance and the Rehn and Douthitt Galleries in New York;" so the ref backs the text, you could also add the Art Alliance gallery

•  Done SusunW (talk) 17:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

58 ponca city information backs claims

46 NYT "She had testified at her trial that she was earning a living working as a secretary for a real estate company" - The article (which I found hard to read) says she was working for the Tidewater Oil Company as a secretary issuing dividend checks so not a real estate company - and she also received income from her foster mother, from journalism and from working for a real estate operator. So I see where real estate comes from but i think the summary can be improved

•  Done changed to "as a secretary for the Tidewater Oil Company, as an assistant to a real estate agent, from writing, and from a benefactor". SusunW (talk) 17:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

55 mcbride - information is present

81 menyuk and galban wiki says: When the Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian was founded in 1978, seventy-five images of Unkalunt, which had been donated to the C.H. Nash Museum at Chucalissa by Mrs. Dale Hall, were given by Chucalissa to the Smithsonian. source says: 1/ 75 Photographic prints 2/Donated by Mrs. Dale Hall to the C.H. Nash Museum (Chucalissa) in 1967. Donated by the C.H. Nash Museum (Chucalissa) to the Museum of the American Indian, Heye Foundation in 1978. - a nitpick yes, but I'm not seeing a cite for the NMAI being founded in 1978

• Good catch! I rewrote the info on the provenance. SusunW (talk) 17:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

•  Done Mujinga (talk) 20:35, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I think I answered everything Mujinga, but if not, or if something else needs to be fixed, changed, etc., please ping me and I'll try to fix it. I appreciate your help in improving the article. SusunW (talk) 17:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

A few more spotchecks

On this version:

• 4 & 15 - "In September 1916, she enrolled at the New England Conservatory of Music in Boston, Massachusetts, studying under Millie Ryan, Clarence B. Shirley, and Charles White." - aargh sorry another nitpick, if she left per Muskogee Times-Democrat in mid-September and visited various places, she might have enrolled in October? Maybe better to say late 1916? Mujinga (talk) 20:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

•  Done SusunW (talk) 21:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• 4 & 16 "Simultaneously she trained in literature under Dalla Lore Sharp, at Boston University and attended the Emerson School of Oratory" - Standard Sentinel indeed says literature, but the Encyclopedia of the American Indian says she studied logic, ethics and psychology? Mujinga (talk) 20:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Can't see Encyclopedia of the American Indian, "borrow unavailable", so I have no idea what school or under whom to add those last 3. Feel free to edit if you can see the source. SusunW (talk) 21:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oh darn that's annoying you couldn't access the source - what I meant was whilst the Standard Sentinel indeed says she studied literature at Boston University, the Encyclopedia of the American Indian says she studied logic, ethics and psychology at Boston (no more details given), so that's a straight up clash between the sources Mujinga (talk) 11:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• When I get that "Borrow unavailable", it usually means someone has already borrowed it and they can keep it for 14 days. But today I can borrow it, so they must have released it? Anyway, I just said she also studied, because the source says at Boston University.  Done SusunW (talk) 12:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• 79&80 "she continued to produce content for newspapers and magazines, sang at women's and community group meetings, and participated in programs sponsored by the State Department for Voice of America" - VoA yes, magazines yes, radio stations, concert halls, not seeing specifically "women's and community group meetings"? As a sidenote the Sequoyah County Times says she was writing her third book but it doesn't say what it was Mujinga (talk) 21:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

•  Done Added multiple refs. Clippings mention Women’s National Farm and Garden Association, Ridgewood Women’s Club, and that concert at the May 20th 1951 for the Totzauer school is open to the public, i.e. community gathering/meeting. I've changed the wording to reflect gatherings. SusunW (talk) 21:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• 47,48,49 At the end of 1924, Unkalunt became embroiled in a lawsuit with Lucie Benedict, the daughter of the well-to-do art dealer, George H. Ainslie. Benedict alleged that Unkalunt had stolen from her father some silk material, furnishings, and clothing, originally valued at $355 but reported in court to be worn and threadbare items worth about $10. Newspapers reported that Ainslie and his wife had met the singer during a meeting of the Greenwich Village Historical Society, held in his gallery to promote Native American art. After his wife died, Ainslie befriended Unkalunt and arranged for artist friends to paint her portrait and complete a sculpture of her. When his attention became romantic, although Unkalunt refused his advances, Benedict sought to terminate her father's infatuation by accusing the singer of theft. Unkalunt testified that Ainslie was upset by her rejection and in order to hurt her backed his daughter's claims. - lots of claims here, all verified
• 63 Unkalunt gave lectures and sang performances to women's clubs and community organizations throughout the United States. She participated in the Wisconsin Dells Indian Pageant from 1924 to 1936 and various inter-racial music festivals. She also organized Indian Day celebrations and Native dances. She broadcast musical recitals and educational programs about Native cultures via shortwave radio to Australia, France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, South Africa, and several locations in South America, as well as on WJZ in Newark, New Jersey and WRC in Washington, D.C. - all good - and this ref would back "women's and community group meetings" as well Mujinga (talk) 21:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)