Talk:Amhara people

The current conflict

Where is the current conflict covered? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66496137 Hcobb (talk) 17:43, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

In the War on Amhara page ሰይፍ (talk) 00:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Misinformation

The page of the Amhara people is constantly being violated by specific agenda of a user, Socialwave597. He used to had an Arabic user name and now he changed it to English. He deleted various informations from the page - Including Amhara relationships to the Aksum empire. And he is editing stuff based on his own agenda. Nobody is stopping him. He writing stuff which don’t even mentioned in the source, and deleted other information from other sources which doesn’t soothe his narrative. For example he wrote that it is “believe that the Christianisation of Amharas begin in the Late Aksum empire period”. Believed by who? And that is just a single example. How come no one is stoping him and letting him do as he wish? 2A00:A041:E19A:2600:DDE7:776D:809B:6138 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

The source is referring to the Christianization of Amhara Province (South Wollo), where the Amhara expanded out of. The source is the first volume of Encyclopaedia Aethiopica and is accessible in virtually every major university institution. Socialwave597 (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Christianization part

Hello, @Socialwave597. Taddesse Tamart was talking about the Agaw in Wag and Lasta. Here is what he wrote about Amhara; “Amhara troops of Tigre ancestry” meaning that according to Taddesse Tamart (which he himself mentioned) Amhara originated from Axum (what is now Tigray/Tigre). This disproves your claim. Please read carefully his works. Javext (talk) 11:53, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Javext Where does he say that? He actually says that the Christianization of Amhara took place during the ninth century (late Aksumite period), "According to the Life of Tekle Haymanot (c. 1215-1313) the advent of his ancestors to Amhara and Shewa is connected with Digna-Jan’s programme of evangelization of his southern provinces. [...] This brings Digna-Jan to the first half of the ninth century."[1] (page 68-69). The modern Amhara are a mixture of various peoples (similar to the Oromo), whose ethnogenesis took shape during the post-Aksumite era, its possible that some Amhara are of "Tigrayan" or Aksumite ancestry due to assimilation, but not the group as a whole.[2] Socialwave597 (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, in what page does he state this exact claim?

Secondly on page 72 Taddesse Tamart clearly wrote “and his Amhara troops of Tigre ancestry”. The term Tigre in this context is in reference to the area in specific Aksum. In addition I have reviewed the source you sent. The pages 68-69 have nothing written about “Amhara becoming Christians in the 9th century”. The only thing he mentioned was the fact that the ancestors of Saint Tekle Haymanot migrated to the province of Amhara/Bete Amhara during the reign of Digna Jan. Furthermore a well reliable source, Professor Mordechai Abir of the Hebrew university of Jerusalem clearly shows that Amhara became Christians in the 4th century.

This can be proven with other sources such as: The Encyclopedia of African Peoples, Pg 29 The Diagram Group which state “After Syrians convened Ezana. King of Axum 320-55, to Christianity, the Amhara gradually adopted the religion too. The spread of Islam in surrounding areas from the seventh century resulted in the isolation of the Amhara…”;

Ethiopian Review vol 4 1994 state, “During the following 800 years, the Amharas never forgot their original home, Aksum. Their emperors considered their dynasty as the continuation of the Solomonic Dynasty. They returned often to Aksum to be coronated in accordance with the tradition of their ancestors, the …”;

Ethiopia: the land, it's people, History and Culture Yohannes Mekonnen, Page 250 states: “The Amhara have an ancient Christian tradition that traces its roots to the Aksumite Empire. In the fourth century, the emperor Ezana left behind inscriptions that mention the titles "Lord of Heaven" and "Lord of the Earth," Which indicates his conversion to the Christian faith.

Ezana's Christianity is confirmed by the coins minted during his reign: earlier coins bear a crescent and disk, whereas later ones depict the cross, a symbol of Christian penetration in the Amhara region.

There are many more sources I can bring, but I think you get the point. Please take this seriously and quit manipulating sources to fit in your imaginary narratives. Javext (talk) 19:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Javext Well then you misread it. Tamrat is clearly saying that the ancestors of Tekle Haymont arrived in the region of Amhara to Christianize it, this is again reiterated on page 229 "According to some versions of the tradition of Dignajan, King of Aksum, the ancestors of Tekle-Haymanot are said to have been sent to Amhara and Shewa with numerous other priests to evangelize the region". The original Amhara are not of "Tigre origin" either (I believe you are engaging in WP:OR here), as linguistic analysis shows they branched off some 2,800 years ago.[3][4] The Amhara originate more southward then Lasta and Wag, in modern day South Wollo (Bete Amhara), hence it makes no sense for them to adopt Christianity prior to the 6th century before the Agaw, even this article on the "Ethnogenesis" tab says that they adopted Christianity after the 7th century. Ethiopian Review is obviously not a reliable source, and neither is "Ethiopia: the land, it's people, History and Culture", if you read here the author even forgot to remove the Wikipedia citations[5]. Please don't refer to WP:SELFPUB that you found on google books and try reading some peer reviewed scholarship on this topic. Socialwave597 (talk) 22:39, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I did not misread it. Taddese tamrat is the same scholar which stated that Pre-Amharic or an Amharic-like language already existed in the northern part in early times and according to Aleqa Taye, there is evidence from the names of some kings of the Axumite Empire, that they fall to Amharic. From this we can clearly see that Taddese Tamrat believes the ancestors of the Amharas were indeed the Aksumites. I have read the pages 68-69 which you asked to check. It does not state what you claimed. It only says and I quote; “According to the life of Tekle Haymanot (c.1215-1313)) the advent of his ancestors to Amhara/Bete Amhara and shewa is connected with Digna Jan’s program of his evanglizatgion of his southern people.” As you see, nothing about Amhara people becoming Christians at that time whatsoever.

In your own quote “"According to some versions of the tradition of Dignajan, King of Aksum, the ancestors of Tekle-Haymanot are said to have been sent to Amhara and Shewa with numerous other priests to evangelize the region".” It states the ANCESTORS of Tekele haymanot were sent to the area of Amhara and Shewa to evangelize, so how could the ancestors of Tekele haymanot (who is an Amhara) be sent to a region to evangelize his own people? That doesn’t make any sense. This is based off you reading into the text and misinterpreting it.

In addition to this you misread what I said leading to a complete shift in topic. One, the term “tigre” in this context is not in reference to the people, but rather to the modern region in reference to Aksum, so what it is trying to say is that the ancestors of the Amhara (Aksumites) came from that area.

We are not talking about languages but if you insist then you should note that Tigrinya and Amharic have a difference of less than 10% Ge’ez lexicon difference so it is not enough to be used as evidence in your claim.

Once again your claim that the Amhara didn’t become christian until the period between the 7-9th century is based off the assumption that the Amhara were not the Aksumites (Agazi) which is not true as I have proven already. Your capability of not being able to disprove our claims is shown by saying the sources brought are “unreliable” even though they are a variety ranging from self published and non self published sources.

Also you did not mention to one of the sources I gave. Professor Mordechai Abir of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote that Amhara became christian in the 4th century. Is he also not reliable?

In the chronicles of King Gelawdewos (1540-1559) it is stated that Amhara was “land of the Aga’azi” who were the Aksumites showing that the Amharas were the descendants of. I will provide a plethora of sources which are reliable and undeniably proof that the Amhara were Christian since the 4th century AD.

-Source: “Native Peoples of the World:

An Encyclopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues”, by Steven L. Danver

“The Amhara have an ancient Christian tradition that traces its roots to the Aksumite Empire. In the fourth century, the emperor Ezana left behind inscriptions that mention the titles "Lord of Heaven" and "Lord of the Earth," indicating his conversion to the Christian faith.

Ezana's Christianity is confirmed by the coins minted during his reign: earlier coins bear a crescent and disk, whereas later ones depict the cross, a symbol of Christian penetration in the Amhara Region.”

-Source: Oil, Power and Politics:

“Conflict of Asian and African Studies, Hebrew University of Jerusalem”, by professor Mordechai Abir

“The main recipients of the 'semitic' cultural influences were the people today called Amhara and Tigreans,' who from the fourth century A.D. became Christians and more or less dominated the history of Ethiopia. Ironically, the foundations of the kingdom of Ethiopia were laid in the area which now is partly Eritrean and which local secessionists wish to tear away from Ethiopia.” Javext (talk) 12:31, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Javext I don't want to side track on this and instead would like to focus on your edits on the article (i.e Christianization of Amhara). Now, Taddesse Tamrat without any doubt says that Amhara was Christianized during the reign of Degna Djan, if you can't, don't, or won't understand his words then perhaps we should request a third opinion here. The established fact is the Amhara were originally concentrated in a smaller province in South Wollo prior to the 14th century[6], and according to traditions this province and its people were evangelized during the reign of Degna Djan.[7] (pg 87) "Christianity soon became the central component of the ethnic identity of the Aksumites and their descendants, the Tigreans. By the end of the first millennium groups of the Amhara were also beginning to embrace Christianity."[8] Mordechai Abir's quote is just a passing line without an analysis of the primary sources, and Danver's source is just a broad encyclopedia of various different ethnic groups (WP:TERTIARY). The royal chronicles are a primary source, so we can't use that per WP:PRIMARY. I don't want you to think that I will concede based on fringe sources you find, you can find sources for anything nowadays this isn't a reference competition, its differentiating between what is mainstream academic opinion and what's not.

"Your capability of not being able to disprove our claims

"Our"? Who are you arguing on behalf of? WP:MEATPUPPET? Socialwave597 (talk) 23:59, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Socialwave597 I am starting to get tired of this discussion. Clearly you are denying every source I give which state that the Christianization of the Amharas began in the 4th century and then bring other sources that do not mention what you claim. How can you even deny that the coins minted in Emperor's Ezana reign displayed Christian symbols? You asked me for "some peer reviewed scholarship on this topic" and I did, giving you multiple of well known and reliable sources, yet you continue to deny them left and right, with random excuses.

Once again you are changing topics, ""Our"? Who are you arguing on behalf of? WP:MEATPUPPET?" I used the term "our" in reference to my claims and the sources. I understand that you are trying to find anything you can, as little as it might be, to bring me down but that doesn't look good on you. Javext (talk) 12:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Please request a third opinion then. Socialwave597 (talk) 19:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

A third opinion

I'm responding to this request from Javext for a third opinion. I've been slow to respond since I wanted to do some research first, & apologize if this inconvenienced anyone. Further, I feel it is only fair to all parties that I mention the rules about edit warring. It would be a loss to Wikipedia were an edit war to leave this article in wrong version. It appears that this disagreement is primarily over the conversion of the Amhara people to Christianity; it is this point I offer my opinion.

First, it needs to be emphasized that the question about the conversion of the Amhara falls in a dark period of Ethiopian history: the years between the end of the Aksum kingdom & the foundation of the Zagwe dynasty are poorly documented. There is a single inscription, some mentions in the histories of the Coptic/Egyptian church, & mentions by contemporary Muslim writers. (The lists of rulers & Abbas/Metropolitans is not trusted by many historians.) So the archeological record -- the study of man-made things -- is important here.

Next, the work of Dr. Taddesse Tamrat has been cited often in this discussion, unfortunately from his doctoral thesis not his published book. There are significant differences between the two, most importantly that he acknowledges that he had additional input that went into his published book from such luminaries as Richard Pankhurst & Stanislaw Chojnacki. The drawback is that Dr. Taddesse's published book is out of print, while his doctoral thesis is available online. (Fortunately thru the School of African Studies, & the British Library website which went offline due to hackers.) Despite this limitation, I will be citing Dr. Taddesse's published book here.

Socialwave597 believes that Dr. Taddesse "without any doubt says that Amhara was Christianized during the reign of Degna Djan". I have not read his thesis in full, but from my understanding of his published work he was at least ambivalent about when the Amhara were converted. He does not explicitly raise the issue when the Amhara were converted, but can assume he believed they were converted at the same time as the inhabitants of Tigray were -- or that they were concerted later. Perhaps his opinion was mixed because it is part of Amhara identity that they can trace their roots to the kingdom of Aksum, the earliest African kingdom to accept Christianity, & Christianity is an important part of defining who the Amhara are. In his book at one point he admits "Traditional material on the Amhara is lacking and it is impossible here to give any specific dates for their origin." (p. 37) Nevertheless he states further on in his book

The Amhara had long been the advance guard of Christian expansion in the south. We have already referred to an early Muslim tradition of the armed conflict between them and the Warjih pastoralists in the Shawan region, in A.D. 1128. There are traditions of a slow movement of isolated Christian families from Amhara to the region of the Shawan plateau. A military expedition by a Zagwe monarch into the "kingdom of Damot" is also referred to elsewhere.

— pp. 64f

So is there any evidence suggesting that the Amhara did convert at an earlier time then, say the beginning of the Zagwe dynasty?

First we need to define what is meant by "Amhara people". Are we talking about a people who are related somehow to the Tigrayan people, or about a people who live in the Amhara area, the Bet Amhara, & came to speak the Amhara language & profess Christianity? That is an issue I don't know if you have or can agree about, but for simplicity I'm assuming it refers to the people who live in that area & speak the language as well as profess Christianity. If either of you disagree, then I guess what I'm about to say will not be of value. But if we agree to that, then archeological evidence can help because we can then turn to the study of the ancient churches of Ethiopia.

These ancient churches show in many ways demonstrate a continuation of traditions rooted in the kingdom of Aksum, such as a basilica floor plan, & a form of construction known as "monkey-head". Many ancient churches with these features are found in the Tigray Region, which is where Christianity first entered the Horn of Africa; those to the south of Tigray would then be considered influenced by Aksumite Christianity. And there are several. (I'm excluding here the famous churches of Lalibela, since many experts believe these were secular structures later converted to churches.) The best known of these are Yemrehanna Krestos, Kankart Mika'el, & Bilbola Tcherqos. Now these have been dated to that dark period between the kingdom of Aksum & the Zagwe dynasty by David Phillipson in his Ancient Churches of Ethiopia (2007): Kankart Mika'el (which he calls the oldest such church in Amhara) to between AD 800 & AD 1000, Bilbola Tcherqos to between 900 & 1025, & Yemrehanna Krestos to between 1025 & 1150) (p. 190). This archeological evidence supports Dr. Taddesse's statement about the Amhara being the advance guard for the southern advance of Christianity.

So it would appear that the expert consensus is that the Amhara converted either around the same time as their northern neighbors, or within a few generations after. Conversion was a slow process: according to Dr Taddesse, Christianity was limited to the royal court & other major population centers along the road linking Aksum & Adulis (p. 23); it wasn't until the advent of the Nine Saints towards the end of the 5th century that Christianity spread into the countryside. (Dr. Taddesse dates this to the late 5th century, while I've seen other authorities who date this a little later, to the 6th century; as Dr. Taddesse commented the evidence for this period is limited.) We do have evidence that despite having gone into a decline after AD 600, the Aksum kingdom had still some importance as late as AD 770, when Arab writers tell of Aksumite naval battles in the Red Sea (Taddesse, p. 32).

I'd like to comment on a few more points raised in this discussion. One is that, according to my understanding of the Galla of saint Tekle Haymanot, that his ancestors who were asked by king Digna Jan to go south and evangelize were living in Amhara & proceeded to Shewa. (Tekle Haymanot was born in Silalish, between the Jamma & Mugar rivers, which I believe is south of Bet Amhara.) But I could be wrong. Another is about the use of glottochronology concerning Ge'ez, Tigray & Amhara. I had always believed from my reading that the three languages had a similar relationship to each other as Latin, Spanish & Portuguese respectively. I was surprised to read from the article Socialwave cited that Ge'ez was considered a sister language to the two, & that the split between Tigrayan & Amharic was dated to 850 BC. (The table in the article should not be read as "2800 BC", but "2800 Before Present"; Before Present is measured back from AD 1950, which calculates to 850 BC.) This is the first source I've seen that promotes such a view. Now I happen to know that the results of glottochronology are at best controversial -- please see the Wikipedia article -- so unless other authorities independent of glottochronology confirm such an early date, I wouldn't rely on that source overmuch. Perhaps not more than in a footnote noting this dissenting POV.

I must thank anyone who has read this far in my essay. I wrote more than I had planned to on this subject. -- llywrch (talk) 23:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Llywrch. Thanks for replying. I agree that the period between the fall of Aksum and the Zagwe period is a dark age of Ethiopian history and like you said, there are little to no inscriptions from that time, that talks about this topic and others. I also agree with what you said regarding the source socialwave597 brought up and his misinterpretation of the glottochronology. The split of languages specifically wouldn’t have any major input in this topic since we are more focusing on the people not their languages. On the topic of who the Amhara people are, I agree with what you said on their location (bet/bete Amhara), language (Amharic) and their religion (Christianity). However, one vital piece of information is that they are the heirs of Aksum. The reason why this is vital, is because it would mean that the proto amhara (ie people living with the Aksumite period and would later become to be known as the Amhara) lived further north.

This can be proven by various sources and traditions such as:

1. Ethiopian kings carrying out the tradition of coronation within Aksum. Spearheading the Ge’ez language renaissance in the 14th century during the reign of emperor Zara ya’qob, the deployment of military tactics from the days of Aksum (sewa regiment) by emperors most notably Amde seyon I. These traditions alone show that the Amhara identity is rooted within its Aksumite history. Alongside I have sources to back this up. Here are some: -"Encyclopedia of the Stateless

Nations: Ethnic and

National Groups Around the World", James Minahan • 2002 (p. 104) - The Semitic Aksumites eventually split into two related but distinct nations, the Amhara and the Tigreans. The Amhara spread from their *traditional lands* to conquer much of the highlands.

-“Native Peoples of the World:

An Encyclopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues”, by Steven L. Danverl -Oil, Power and Politics:

“Conflict of Asian and African Studies, Hebrew University of Jerusalem”, by professor Mordechai Abir.

Additional source: Dr. Girma Demeke in his book, Origin of Amharic, explicitly states this speaking a Semitic language is slightly different from that of Geez. According to the pidgin hypothesis, the Semitic tongue spoken by the commanders was the one that provided the Semitic features to Amharic. Indeed, there is historical support for the existence of such a Semitic tongue before the administrative shift took place from the North, Axum, to the South, Zague. Pre- Amharic or an Amharic-like language existed in the northern part in this early times, according to Alega Taye (1964 E.C: 52) "as evidenced from the names of some kings such as ጉም (721-725), አስጎምጉም (725-730), ለትም (730-746) and ተላተም

(746-767) of the Axumite Empire. As Aleqa Taye (Ibid) also points out, such names do not fall to any of the present ES, but to Amharic."

-Here in annex is a document with the main sources:

Would It be possible to restore the page back to my version? Once again thanks for replying. Javext (talk) 20:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Girma Demeke never says that Amharic was "lightly different from that of Geez" nor did he believe in the pidgin hypothesis. I'm getting signals that you never read his book. Socialwave597 (talk) 04:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Socialwave597 Girma Demeke clearly states in his book: "speaking a Semitic language slightly different from that of Ge'ez".

I also never said he believed in the Pidgin hypothesis.

Now, whether or not you are purposely misinterpreting my statements, I don't know. However, I will assume it's good faith.

-The last screenshot of this document is from his book. Javext (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

That archeological evidence you referenced is situated in the province of Lasta (which was primarily inhabited by the Agaw people) not Bete Amhara, however I am willing to concede and change the sentence to "during the Aksumite period" or something along those lines, but not during the reign of Ezana as proposed by Javext. This is my proposal. Socialwave597 (talk) 04:20, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Llywrch Hello! I apologize if I am bothering you, however It is been a week since my last reply and I haven't got an answer yet. Would you be able to restore it to my version? Thanks. Javext (talk) 15:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Javext I am willing to concede and change the sentence to "the Amhara embraced Christianity sometime during the Aksumite period" or some type of variation of that sentence. We can leave out the century or what king it occurred under since the sources seem to be divergent about that, but they are in general agreement that it occurred during the Aksumite era. Socialwave597 (talk) 03:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

All right, seems good to me. I will change it. Javext (talk) 10:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)