Talk:Alternator/Archive 1

Archive 1

Citations

The Brushless Alternators section appears to plagiarize a 3 page paper by Graig Pearen, which has a 2000 copyright —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.140.130 (talk) 14:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• Impossible to tell from the only link I could find, [[1]], as it requires a subscription to view. However, the wiki article appears very generic, being a simple description of operating principles, which would probably be much the same no matter who wrote it. Suckindiesel (talk) 15:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Construction

there are multiple types of excitation systems for different types of alternators. not all have a rotary exciter. some clarification could be made that alternatives exist. With the existance of some robust semiconductors, there is interest in static exciter for maintainence and performance reasons. main field exciters for 10kA+ exist.

Edits

It was surprising that this topic had so many edits and so little information before I pitched in.

Do you suppose in-depth discussion of various alternator construction methods (including homemade alts) would be in order here?

RatOmeterRatOmeter

Radio frequency

The first successful radio frequency alternator was made by Nikola Tesla in 1899 and operated at 30 hertz. On March 10, 1891, Tesla received the patent US447921, "Alternating Electric Current Generator".

Do you mean 30 kilohertz? The first page of Tesla's patent mentions 15 kilohertz. But the sentence as it sits can't possibly be right. --Fred 05:17, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Changed it to VLF. Also, the radio alternator was a specific instance ... not very practical for general use. The patent in the title was the 1st practical one. JDR

Pictures?

I would really like to see a nice close-up picture. 11:09, 8 October 2005 64.13.17.240

I added a diagram of the most basic alternator - is that what people want? Egmason (talk) 10:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

POV? Remove refrences?

I'm not but it seems as if there are a few anti-tesla edits. 200.108.7.108 and Wtshymanski both seem to be editing out info .... the anon removed the citations ref|Blalock and ref|tesla. Wtshymanski seems to imply that the patent is irrelevant because it doesn't mention communication ... but radio communication was just beginning! It would have near impossible to patent radio at that time ... and Tesla, as cited in the Ratzlaff (sp?) book on Tesla patents, repeatedly had to go round and round with the patent examiners to get his patent approved ... sometimes rewritting them to allow the examiner to understancd them. Sincerely, JDR

Tesla had many communication-related patents - but the alternator was not one of them. The text prior to my Aug 24 edit I thought was ambiguous. It's important not to obscure the legitimate Tesla legacy by imputing discoveries to Tesla that he never claimed. Certainly Tesla's other wireless communciation patents are more relevant to communications, even though "radio" was in its infancy at the time...though Tesla's patents don't use "radio" as we currently understand the term. I disagree with and object to the suggestions that I have "edited out" information or that I'm "anti-Tesla", whatever that means. --Wtshymanski 18:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Tesla had patents on alternators. Tesla claimed he had invented radio and a radio frequency alternator is part of the foundation of that claim. It's important not to obscure the legitimate Tesla legacy by disreguarding discoveries of his. Radio wasn't in it's infancy @ this time ... it was just being born (eg., it had not even begun developing into anything practical; it was 2 years later till Tesla himself demonstrated the principles of radio which was reported worldwide). He was one of the first (if not the first) to demonstrate "radio" as we currently understand the term. A quick reviw of the revision as of 13:00, 31 August 2005 Wtshymanski and the revision as of 07:16, 22 August 2005 seems to indicate: 1. you removed the part about the 1st practical alternator which was invented by Tesla and 2. implied that he did intend to use similar types of machine in his later work with radio. Also do note ... that the patents (teh RF alternator and the practical alternator) are numerically in order from one another; U.S. Patents 447920 and 447921. Sincerely, JDR 20:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Gordon who?

I have looked @ the cited text and could not find the full name of 'Gordon'. If anyone could provide a full name I would be appreciative. The text is from Thompson's Dynamo-Electric Machinery and states Lord Kelvin and Sebastian Ferranti also did early work in alternators. Also, Gordon's patents [5536 (1881) and 2871 (1882)] are British I believe (the cited text doesn't state what countries the patents were in). Sincerely, JDR 15:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever posted the J.E.H. ... seems to be the British electrician, James Edward Henry Gordon. Tesla also mentions him in one of his speeches on AC HVHF. Anyways, thanks again, JDR 22:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it is worth adding that these also seem to break on cars all the time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.163.106.171 (talk • contribs).

History

Please keep the development of the number of cycles per second straight.

J.E.H. Gordon, Lord Kelvin, and Sebastian Ferranti developed ones at 100 and 300 hertz. Nikola Tesla operated around 15,000 hertz. Later alternators were between sixteen and several hundred hertz. 204.56.7.1 18:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

too much automotive alternator information

I reckon there´s too much information on automotive alternators. The main use of alternators is power generation. On an every day´s basis you´re more likeky to find an automotive alternator and not an industrial one, but most of the electricity in the world is generated with these machines (whether synchronous or asynchronous,these in wind mills). It´s by large its main use. It is not an article on car mechanics.Xareu bs 06:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is Wikipedia, so you know what to do: be bold and edit the article. Add more information about power generation if you wish!

Atlant 12:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

well to be perfectly honest yes there is a lot about car alternators although the majority of people use their car everyday and it would be more use to them to find out how a car generator works as they're more likely to try and work on them than an industrial power generator. like the guy said before if you're goin to be anal about it edit it youself and stop complaining. also one last thing u commented that the main use of alternators is power generation... wel is a vehicle alternator not generating power or is that just attached to a vehicles engine for no reason. unless of course you mean power generators for mains electricity in which case i would like to guess that there is more automotive alternators in the world than power generators. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.132.24.231 (talk • contribs).

Just FYI: In the future, you might want to avoid accusations of anal retentiveness; that could be taken as a violation of WP:CIV.

Atlant 14:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Formulas

Please add some formulas —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.212.152.66 (talk • contribs).

Naming

Quote:

"In principle, any AC electrical generator can be called an alternator, but usually the word refers to small rotating machines driven by automotive and other internal combustion engines."

I think this may be another UK/US language difference. In the UK, AC electric generators of all sizes are called alternators. Biscuittin (talk) 20:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Animation

Does theese animations serve their purpose: to give grafic information to a reader that is unfamiliar with the topic? Imo they are not good and should be replaced or deleted. KjellG (talk) 22:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the animations are quite good, but I would make two changes. First, the stator should have six poles, not three. Second, it is designed to show how a three phase motor with a wound rotor operates, not how a three phase alternator works. There should be a single rotating magnetic field vector, with north and south ends, of constant amplitude atop the rotor, and it should induce sinusoidally alternating currents in each of the stator pole pairs, 120 degrees out of phase with each other. Karn (talk) 04:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I like the 3 phase, 3 coil view rather six coils, but I've never understood why an article on alternators is being illustrated with an animation of a motor. For another thing, the rotor is AC excited - it would be much clearer with DC.

There have been phases on WP where inappropriate images have been added, simply because any animated image was "cool", no matter how misleading it was. This has been especially the case for rotating electrical machines. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Fan Belt?

‘Fan Belt’ redirects here, but there is no mention of Fan Belts on the page, perhaps at least a short comment should be made for people who do not know how these topics relate? DJE (talk) 14:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Laymen Questions

Automtive Alternators - Do they generate just enough energy to run the electricaly systems or do they generate and store excess energy? If they do not store excess energy could they be designed to do so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaunji (talk • contribs) 08:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Any excess energ is stored in the starting battery, alternator output then reduces when this is fully charged. As the alternator absorbs engine HP, there seems little point in generating & storing any further excess, as the return will be less than the input, due to losses. Suckindiesel (talk)

To put this another way, once the alternator has "made up the charge deficit" in the battery that was caused by starting (cranking) the engine, the voltage regulator in the alternator automatically modulates, from moment to moment, the alternator output to match the electrical load created by all of the systems in the car. It does this by maintaining a pre-determined "bus voltage" on the output terminal of the alternator.

Atlant (talk) 22:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Automotive alternator history

The automotive alternator has an important 50-year history. The Leece-Neville Co. originated it for police cars, etc. The rectifier was external copper oxide at first. Much later, Motorola developed the press-fit rectifier for alternators. This made the alternator practical for regular cars. I will locate my old Leece-Neville catalog for documentation. Also, I have Motorola press-fit rectifier information. Press-fit rectifiers were changed to button-diodes later. When I locate my information, I will write a separate article.

- Lee -  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.161.131.126 (talk) 14:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC) 

Separate page

I started an alternator (auto) page. If no one deletes it i will change the links appropriatly. Please fix it since it is a cut and paste of this paragraph. Silverxxx (talk) 04:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Galileo Ferraris

Should Galileo Ferraris be included into this page? Faro0485 (talk) 19:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Archive 1