Talk:Aftermath of the Libyan civil war (2011)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: JCAla (talk · contribs) 17:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I am reviewing the article. A preliminary review will be posted soon. Regards, JCAla (talk) 17:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

The article is very well written and truely informative. But there are still some things to be done, I put my comments below.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

**Please put a  Done next to every point you have amended, or put a  Not done next to ones you have not done, with a reason.**

Lead

• Can you add one sentence on the struggle of rather secularist elements inside the NTC with Islamist elements such as the Muslim Brotherhood as this might be a major issue in the aftermath period?

Section: Uprising and civil war

Done
The section has no sources.  Done. Added sources. Jeancey (talk) 23:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Section: Events after Gaddafi's death

Done

"Jibril then stepped down to make place for elections and was succeeded as interim prime minister by Abdurrahim El-Keib after a brief period in which his deputy, Ali Tarhouni, assumed his duties." Can you clarify the sentence? Maybe you mean "after a brief period in which his deputy, Ali Tarhouni, had assumed his duties". Also whose deputy was Tarhouni?  Done. Made it clear that Tarhouni was Jibril's deputy and added "had".--Anders Feder (talk) 13:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC) "On 23 January 2012, the town of Bani Walid was captured by local militia fighters." Captured from whom? Gaddafi loyalists or the NTC?  Done. Clarified the sentence and added a new source. Jeancey (talk) 23:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Section: Security

Done

"According to interim interior minister Fawzi Abdelali, the authorities are planning to integrate 50,000 former rebels in the security forces ..." into  Done. Jeancey (talk) 19:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC) "According to a report by the Secretary-General of the United Nations, up to 7,000 people, including women and children, are being held in in private jails outside the control of the NTC, "with no access to due process in the absence of a functioning police and judiciary". Many of the prisoners are being subjected to torture and systematic abuse, and there are reports of "women held in detention in the absence of female guards and under male supervision, and of children detained alongside adults." A large number of the detainees are sub-Saharan Africans, in some cases accused or suspected of being pro-Gaddafi mercenaries, and some individuals were "being targeted because of the colour of their skin"." Please put the sources after each of the direct quotes, so they can be better attributed.  Done. Jeancey (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC) "In the months following the Libyan uprising, the Sahel region saw thousands of combatants originating from Mali and Niger, ..." Combatants or mercenaries? The original AFP report[1] used the more general "combatants", and I suggest we do too as it is unclear to which extent mercenaries were used. Early on, NGOs had difficulty confirming that mercenaries were being flown in on airplanes as some rumors had suggested. My take is that these fighters were probably just Tuareg who were defending their self-interests (Gaddafi being an ally and financial backer) while possibly taking compensation from Gaddafi in the process.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Ok, but maybe you can mention that there were allegations that some of those combatants were mercenaries? JCAla (talk) 11:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)  Not done. I would recommend against that, on grounds of WP:V. We simply do not have sources to back up any claim of connection between the particular fighters causing trouble in the Sahel with the alleged mercenaries who took part in the civil war. Implying anything else would, in my opinion, be a WP:SYN.--Anders Feder (talk) 20:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC) As this is not the main article on the civil war, I agree. JCAla (talk) 09:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Section: Politics

Done

"According to Sallabi, the party is not Islamist, but respects the general principles of Islam and Libyan culture." This might be controversial and needs a reference directly after the sentence.  Done. I added the reference. Jeancey (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC) "The party has the backing of the head of the Tripoli Military Council, Abdelhakim Belhadj, as well as tribal leaders and members of the NTC." Can you elaborate on "members of the NTC"? Is it backed by a majority, minority or else of NTC members?  Done. ish. I modified the line slightly to make it a direct quote from the article. The article was not specific about which members of the NTC it was. Jeancey (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC) "A statement from the group said the party was an "Islamist party committed to the principles of Islamic sharia", aiming to work for establishing a state based on institutions. The chairman of the party, Khaled al-Wershefani, said the group aimed "to focus on national unity and build a Libyan state which is modern, civilized and developed and which does not exclude or marginalize anyone."" Please put references directly behind direct quotes.  Done. I added the reference. Jeancey (talk) 23:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC) "Jalil called for patience and promised that personal details and official information of all government officials would be published publicly on the Internet in time.[68] On 21 December, Jalil called on former rebel fighters to produce a list of potential candidates to join the NTC, saying seven to nine would be accepted as members of the interim body." The connection between the two sentences is missing.  Done. I agree. The allusion in the sources is that Jalil made this call to appease the protesters (many of whom were former rebels themselves). However, it is too vague that I can credibly reproduce it in the article, so I think I will just slash the latter part of the paragraph.--Anders Feder (talk) 20:46, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

"On 21 January 2012, hundreds of protesters stormed the NTC's headquarters in Benghazi, protesting the speed of reforms and lack of transparency from the interim government. When the head of the NTC, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, appeared to address the crowd, the protesters began throwing bottles at him."

• Anything known about the background of these protests? Any political groups/interests behind it?

I couldn't find much on this, but added a note that many of the protesters were wounded veterans of the civil war.--Anders Feder (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I did find something on it. See Al-Arabiya: Libyan protesters storm government headquarters in Benghazi. And there is probably more.

"'The protesters are calling for the sharia law as the source to be clearly stated in the constitution,' Ghaith al-Fakhri, an Libyan Islamist figure, present at Benghazi’s Tahrir Square told AFP. ... In addition to Benghazi, hundreds of Islamists demonstrated in squares in Tripoli and in Sabha in the southern desert. ... The Islamist demonstrators encompassed members of the conservative Muslim Brotherhood and harder-line Salafis, who both back strict versions of Islam, and relative moderates who prefer a civil state simply inspired by sharia. Demonstrators also expressed opposition to any plan to make Libya a federal state. ... Experts believe the Muslim Brotherhood is the most organized political force and could emerge as the leading political player in Libya after Qaddafi, who harshly suppressed Islamists during his 42 years in autocratic power."

"By contrast, a group of secularists who have staged a sit-in in the square for more than a month chanted: 'We want a civil state.' ... Nour al-Zintani, a participant in the month-long sit-in for a secular state, said the majority of Libyans wanted Islam to be a part of their life but not a strict interpretation of it. ... 'We all want sharia,' she said, standing next to her teenage daughter, both of them wearing a Muslim headscarf, 'but not the one they’re talking about, the one that rejects women. We want a moderate Islam that gives women their rights.'"

This would also address the issue I raised below about the existence of non-Islamist parties. Can you integrate something to this regard into the article for weight issues? JCAla (talk) 09:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• Please expand on the "Foreign relations" subsection? Only Syria and Sudan are mentioned.

I'll be adding a bit about Egypt, Lebanon, the UK and possibly others over the next day or so.--Anders Feder (talk) 22:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok. JCAla (talk) 09:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Section: Economy

Done
"Most oil companies has deployed small teams to restart production." have  Done. Jeancey (talk) 23:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

References

Done

Can you replace the two refs that need registration with open refs?  Done. Jeancey (talk) 01:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC) Ref47 has a time out.  Done. Jeancey (talk) 01:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC) nowlebanon.com, tunisia-live.net and ninemsn.com.au are not necessarily reliable sources, can you replace them?  Done. Except for one Tunisia-live link. All of the other sources I can find reference that article, and I can't find the quotes anywhere else. Maybe someone else will have better luck. Jeancey (talk) 01:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC) Can you transform the reflist into one with two columns since it is relatively long?  Done. Jeancey (talk) 01:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Further comments

Done

Please put relevant related wikipedia articles into a "see also" section.  Done. Jeancey (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC) If you know of any books or especially notable works on the subject you can also put some under a "further reading" or "external links" section.  Not done. Since this is so recent, I cannot find any books on the aftermath of the war. I'm sure that in the months to come, there will be, and I'll try to be on the lookout for them. Jeancey (talk) 23:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC) You can also add the article to this template and then add the template to the end of the article.  Done.

• The article seems to focus a lot on problems that have arisen, were there any notable positive developments besides the democratic elections to be held and oil production resuming? If there weren't, that's fair. Just checking. I. e. besides the Islamist parties, are there any other notable parties forming?

That is something I have been looking forward to too, but as attested by recent protests in Benghazi and elsewhere, progress has been slow. There was news a while ago of schools reopening without Gaddafi-controlled curricula, but I felt it was too little material to start a new section just yet.--Anders Feder (talk) 13:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok. What about other parties? Reconstruction efforts? Anything you can find on that? JCAla (talk) 11:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

No, I haven't seen reliable sources on other parties yet (though I'm sure they exist, they are just lower-profile since Libyans tend to favor parties that acknowledge and respect moderate Islamic values). As for reconstruction, I have mainly seen information about idle talks between the government and various possible contractors (Turkey seems particularly interested in this). Any major projects will probably not be approved until the new constitutional assembly is in place. I'll do a second check on both points though.--Anders Feder (talk) 20:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I weren't able to find anything on a second search.--Anders Feder (talk) 20:53, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

See politics comment section and also see this article. JCAla (talk) 09:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Images

• Can you find some more images and illustrations?

So, are we done here or is there more to fix? Review appears to be abandoned on both sides? Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

No. Anders Feder asked for more time, which I had granted him. I think the article is very good, but the editors seem to have no time or interest to further work on it. I would appreciate your opinion as a second opinion on this, if you don't mind?! JCAla (talk) 17:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The last post by Anders on Wikipedia was on February 15, saying he'd lost motivation, but would like more time. That's six weeks ago, a long time to be absent from Wikipedia. If there are still issues with the article that make it fall short of GA, then if you can't (or don't wish to) fix them yourself you should bite the bullet and fail it; two months on hold is too long. The article can always be fixed at a later date and resubmitted. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's been nearly two months now, so I'm failing this because GA reviews are not meant to be held open indefinitely. It can always be re-nommed when he returns. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 01:14, 7 April 2012 (UTC)