Talk:Acton, Cheshire (ancient parish)

Ancient parish boundaries

The following discussion copied from parent article, Acton, Cheshire. Espresso Addict (talk) 14:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

There are discrepancies between the CPs listed by Vision of Britain [1] and Genuki [2] as forming part of the Acton ancient parish. The list page and the map page for VoB also have different information (eg Dodcott cum Wilkesley is included in the latter but not the former). Until further information is available, I have gone with incorporating both sets, and have been deliberately vague about dates. More definitive information on this point would be very useful! Espresso Addict (talk) 03:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I have always found those two websites to be of varying quality, sometimes making use of old or partial information as if it were current or complete. My preferences are always to use authoritative sources that have been published in books or articles. To that end, I have four publications that will be helpful: (a) Phillips, A. D. M., and Phillips, C. B. (Eds.) (2002). A New Historical Atlas of Cheshire. Chester, UK: Cheshire County Council and Cheshire Community Council Publications Trust. ISBN 0904532461, (b) Sylvester. D., and Nulty, G. (1958). The Historical Atlas of Cheshire. (Third Edition) Chester, UK: Cheshire Community Council. (though Phillips and Phillips say this contains some inaccuracies brought about by lack of information at the time it was written, and I suspect this may be the sources of some of the problems) (c) Youngs, F. A. (1991). Guide to the Local Administrative Units of England. (Volume 1: Northern England). London: Royal Historical Society. ISBN 0861931270, and (d) Dunn, F. I. (1987). The ancient parishes, townships and chapelries of Cheshire. Chester: Cheshire Record Office and Cheshire Diocesan Record Office. ISBN 0906758149.

Looking at them in turn, we have the following: (a) (on the inserted map, contained at the back of the book) states Dodcott and Wilkesley township was in two ancient parishes: Audlem ancient parish and Acton ancient parish. (Such splits are not unknown and were part of the set up then, along with detached parts, some of which made boundaries almost impossible to draw on anything other than very fine-scale maps.) (b) lists Dodcott cum Wilksley as being partly in Audlem parish (page 36) and partly in Wrenbury cum Frith parish (page38) (c) confirms that Dodcott and Wilkesley township was split between Acton and Audlem ancient parishes (references are on page 13, and then pages 23, 24, and 38, this last one as an explanatory note. (d) is arranged in a way which means one must look up a few pages, for a few entries. For Dodcott cum Wilkesley (page 17), it states that it was a township which was located partly in Audlem ancient parish and partly in Wrenbury cum Frith civil parish, which was itself a chapelry in Acton ancient parish, though it gained a separate civil identity early. The entry for Audlem ancient parish (page 7) mentions it, but Acton ancient parish (page 5) refers one to Wrenbury cum Frith (page 42), where it states that Dodcutt cum Wilksley had part of its township within its parish boundaries.

Any discrepancies in the sources I have used can be seen, I suggest, as being brought about by using different times at which to look at the records of what parishes there were (this point is made in Dunn's short book on page 5). Dodcott cum Wilksley, as a township, was in both Acton and Audlem ancient parish, but at some early stage, Wrenbury cum Frith parish was split off from Acton ancient parish (Youngs states it got a separate civil identity "early", and I can give some partial information in terms of dates according to Youngs), and Wrenbury cum Frith contained part of the township of Dodcott and Wilksley.

I hope that helps. Incidentally, my next big new article is already planned and partly written, and is going to be called "Ancient parishes of Cheshire", which is why I have those published sources easily to hand at the moment.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

In terms of what is included in Acton ancient parish, Dunn gives the following list: Acton, Aston iuxta Mondrem (the i could be a j too), Austerson, Baddington, Brindley, Burland, Cholmondeston, Coole Pilate (the larger part, a much smaller part was in Audlem), Edleston, Faddiley, Henhull, Hurleston, Newhall (detached small parts in Acton, but partly in Audlem and partly in Wrenbury cum Frith chapelry), Poole, Sound (partly also in Wrenbury), Stoke, Worleston, detached small parts of Dodcott cum Wilkesley and Baddiley. Additionally, Dunn states that this ancient parish previously included "the parochial chapelries of Church Minshull, Nantwich and Wrenbury, and probably the parish of Baddiley." (all on page 23) Under the separate heading for Wrenbury Chapelry we find Chorley. The map insert in (a) is in agreement with all of this, except that Baddiley is shown as being completely surrounded by Acton, but having numerous small detached parts scattered mostly within Burland, Brindley and Faddiley. Chorley is located to the west of Baddiley and north of Wrenbury cum Frith. This last place is described in Youngs book (c) as follows (with some expansion of abbreviations) "Township in Wrenbury cum Frith (chapelry in Acton Ancient Parish, separate civil identity early, separate Ecclesiastical Parish 1730 as "Wrenbury" (note 3), separate Civil Parish 1866 (note 4) Local Government: Nantwich Hundred, Poor Law Union, Rural Sanitary District, and Rural District [council]. Parliamentary constituencies: [Cheshire] Southern Division 1832-67, [Cheshire] South Division (1867-85), Crewe Division/County Constituency (1885-1955), Nantwich County Constituency (1955-)." The notes give the sources and/or expand on the entries. Note 3 states that the ecclesiastical parish was a perpetual curacy augmented by the Commissioners of Queen Anne's Bounty, and note 4 states "29 & 30 Vict, c 113" which refers to the official documents (presumably parliamentary bills or orders during the 29th and 30th years of Victoria's reign) which established the civil parish.

I think we can take the Phillips and Phillips reference (a) and Youngs (c) as referring to the state of affairs that included Wrenbury chapelry in with Acton, whilst Dunn separated them out. Its a bit complicated,as is the nature of it all at around that time, with different kinds of entities and relationships, and with the sources seeming to use different dates at which they start to describe things, but I think that is the authoritative list. I hope that helps.  DDStretch  (talk) 11:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, DDStretch. I've got the New Historical Atlas out of the library again, which might help unravel the problem. I've also got a local history book on Acton which has yet another slightly different list! I will try and consolidate into something relatively simple, as I suspect the average reader isn't too interested in the finer details.

An article on the Cheshire ancient parishes would be great, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't understand exactly what they were. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)