Talk:Achtung Baby/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I will begin reviewing this article and make straightforward changes as I go (explanations in edit summaries). Please revert any changes I make where I inadvertently change the meaning. I will post queries below. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

the band made a deliberate change in musical and thematic direction with the album. - sounds wordy and somewhat vague. I know what you mean though. I think it can be worded better but nothing jumps out straightaway. Actually, see my next edit.

The band replaced their previous earnest image with a more ironic one. - a more specific adjective or two would be good.

I'm not sure I agree with the change that was made. The reason for the previous wording was that we said "they made a change musically and thematically", then we dedicated a sentence to clarify how they musically changed, and then a sentence to clarify how they changed thematically. The new wording doesn't seem to quite be successful at doing that because it starts by saying they changed their thematic direction (which is secondary to the music), and the sentence that clarifies that now is separated illogically. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I do think there is some unnecessary duplication and vagueness which can be combined into one sentence somehow. I suspect there will be some adejctives which can be used to stamp that it wasa purposeful change. How about "the band made the decision to changed direction musically and thematically..." Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think "deliberate" is redundant. The band's sound could have changed merely by means of evolving or stumbling upon something they liked, but in this case, they consciously tried to changed. What about using colons to show the connection of what I was getting at in my last comment? Stung by criticism of their previous album, Rattle and Hum, the band deliberately changed their musical and thematic direction for Achtung Baby; musically, the band incorporated alternative rock, electronic dance, and industrial influences into their work; thematically, the band replaced their previous earnest image with a more ironic one. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

On second thoughts I agree that "deliberate" adds something - still have two "the band" s - how about - Stung by criticism of their previous album, Rattle and Hum, the band deliberately changed their musical and thematic direction, and incorporated alternative rock, electronic dance, and industrial influences into their work. Thematically, U2 replaced their previous earnest image with a more ironic one. (mentioning the album is redundant as it is obvious what they are working on/in). Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Putting an "and" in there seems to disconnect the following two sentences, as they qualify the change in "musical and thematic direction". It now sounds like they changed their musical and thematic direction AND they incorporated new sounds into their music. The sentence about musically incorporating alt-rock, industrial, and dance influences is supposed to be an extension of the previous sentence. What about this? Stung by criticism of their previous album, Rattle and Hum, the band deliberately changed their musical and thematic direction; musically, they incorporated alternative rock, electronic dance, and industrial influences into their work, and thematically, they replaced their previous earnest image with a more ironic one. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I was not reading the last sentence as part of the whole. Still seems a bit repetitive. Stung by criticism of their previous album, Rattle and Hum, the band deliberately changed direction musically, by incorporating alternative rock, electronic dance, and industrial influences into their work, and thematically, by replacing their previous earnest image with a more ironic one. - is less repetitive, but is it too ungainly? (could also put an mdash after first "direction" Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

What if we split it into two sentences like so: Stung by criticism of their previous album, Rattle and Hum, the band deliberately changed their direction musically by incorporating alternative rock, electronic dance, and industrial influences into their work. The band also changed their direction thematically by replacing their previous earnest image with a more ironic one. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 06:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that works. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

While I'm glad the pre-GAN text is getting an update from "outside influence", there's a few problems here and it needs to be fixed. This was written originally based around the idea that both the music and the themes (lyrics) changed. And, of course there was the image change too. Now we are saying that thematically = image? Not quite – lyrics/themes are very different to image. There are three points that we need to distinguish and probably carry into in the lead:

• the music/sound changed (we seem to have made that point OK),
• something like “thematically it covered much more inward and personal themes (this is already in the prose and amply supported by countless themes)
• The band’s image changed from a more “earnest” one to a more “ironic” one.

They're not the exact words I’m extolling, rather we need to be clear on the distinctions. Basically, themes and image aren't the same thing. I could just be bold and make the changes, but I await your responses. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 22:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

PS, so I've been bold and change the second of the next to sentences (and now more in-line with words in U2 article):

Stung by criticism of their previous album, Rattle and Hum, the band changed their direction musically by incorporating alternative rock, electronic dance, and industrial influences into their music. Thematically, it was their most inward-looking and personal record to date, and it was the start of the band’s early 1990’s replacement of their previously earnest image with a more ironic one.

regards --Merbabu (talk) 23:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I would like to think the 3rd paragraph of the lead sufficiently covers the themes/topics of the band's lyrics and that we don't need to introduce it in the 1st paragraph. I'm not sure what word I would use to indicate the band's image changed (a la "musically" and "thematically"). Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 23:00, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I missed this comment above - sorry. But I've fixed it anyway. And, I restructured it as it didn't make sense to have the lyrics and ZooTV/1990’s reinvention separated from the sound and image changes. (and it used the word thematically a second time! – but in reference to the lyrics not image as I think it should be).

I split it into four paragraphs for now. And now I realise, that this lead can be bigger as it’s a big article. There’s a number of ways it could be done, but each way should draw on the ample amount of text in the article. Possibly suggest either combine paragraphs 1 & 2 and expand the rest, or keep the 4 paragraphs. I’ve written a few long summary leads for long articles – see Suharto and Indonesia (an FA) for good examples.--Merbabu (talk) 23:58, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily opposed to 4 paragraphs, but that version seemed to have important details disconnected from each other. I've gone ahead and made corrections to the article. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 02:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Update - lead has coagulated nicely now :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Seeking renewal and inspiration on the eve of German reunification, - 'renewal'? - not sure that word means anything here

but it was also the beginning of a backlash (against the band). - bracketed bit redundant, also repetitive with beginning of following sentence. 'backlash' within itself carries the connotation of against ...x.

felt dissatisfied --> "were dissatisfied"

I am not sure why Even Better Than the Real Thing is left out of the lead.

We could reasonably put it in there, but I didn't want to get too carried away. The other 3 singles went #1 on multiple charts, EBTTRT went #1 on one chart. I thought that was a reasonable qualifier. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:35, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay. 'nuff said. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"his input was being diminished" - would be smoother and easier to the eye if this were reworded and de-quoted. Not a memorable quote in and of itself to warrant exact wording.

Yeah, we can definitely de-quote it, but I'm not sure about re-wording it. It seems to be a pretty common phrase in itself. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:35, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

could change 'input' to 'contribution(s)' if you want - important thing is to dequote. Might be too short to be considered a problem if unchanged actually. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"Zoo Station" dramatically represents the band's reinvention. - sounds fluffy and vague. I don't think the article gains anything by its presence.

I would strongly disagree. As the opening song on an album that was a reinvention for the band, the song begins with a startling, distorted introduction, meant to make listeners think the record was broken or it wasn't U2, and the lyrics describe new expectations that band have. On its own, the statement doesn't mean much, but I think the following text clarifies it sufficiently. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

okay then, maybe think about streamlining with the next 1-2 sentences. I'd see the word "dramatically" as veering into POV though at a mimumum. If the intro is dramatic, link the word to that. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we just remove the word "dramatically" and say "Zoo Station is one song that strongly represents the band's reinvention". Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 05:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

"can be read as a statement of intent and suggest new appetites and anticipations." - We've got "reinvention" (i.e. new direction), then "statement of intent" (? first of a bunch of songs which sound new (?), and "suggest new appetites and anticipations" (new direction (again?)) - I think this section is a little effusive somehow, sorry. I have been staring at it seeing how it can be worded in a more sober fashion. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:50, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

How about "The opening track "Zoo Station" heralds the band's reinvention. With distorted vocal tracks and industrial percussion, its lyrics suggest new appetites and anticipations." (try to use "herald" to subsume "statement of intent") (???) Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but does "herald" sound a little POV to you? Maybe something more along the lines of "announce"? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

"announce" is fine. These ones are always tricky, trying to strike the right balance :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

There are a bunch of web refs at the bottom (75-86) which are just links and need access and publishing dates and website info etc. I mention this as the article is shaping up nicely to go all the way to FAC. It is interesting and about the right size to get through. Nearly there for GA. Good work. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:46, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the certifications/charting references, which may still be a work-in-progress, I've addressed everything above. The only lasting issue is getting references for some of the new content Merbabu added. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 06:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

• Update - yeah I am satisfied it meets GA criteria now..I'll get to the housekeeping in a minute. I was also trying to give it a shove towards FAC. I think it is a good read and worth the effort. Well done all, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:00, 25 November 2009 (UTC)