Talk:A mythology for England/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 10:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: FishLoveHam (talk · contribs) 16:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll admit I'm a little intimidated to do this review, but as a part of the tenth good article review circle, I promise I'll give it my best shot! FishLoveHam (talk) 16:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Don't be too worried about it, it's actually quite a simple story, and the scholarship is pretty straightforward. I'll help as I can. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• Remove "that lies".
  • Done.
• "actually happened" → "happened".
  • Done.
• Remove comma after "mythologies".
  • It feels necessary in British diction.
• "20th century" → "twentieth-centurty" (WP:MOSNUMERAL).
  • Done.
• "empire" → "the empire"
  • Done.

A "resounding phrase"

• ""thinking of creating that mythology for England himself"" reword and unquote. This paragraph has enough quotes.
  • Edited.
• "recently-published" remove, unnecessary.
  • Done.
• "quotes" → "quoted".
  • He's alive.
    • Oh I see now! I originally thought it was a tense issue but it isn't, my apologies!
• "languages;" → "languages,".
  • Done.

Likely influences

• Remove comma after "people".
  • Edited. He didn't compile the people.
• "This was certainly a major influence on Tolkien" this is too brief, who argued this?
  • Attributed.
• "and was equally struck with the beauty of the Finnish language" euphemistic, needs reworded.
  • No euphemism here, it made an enormous impression on him, as the wine-cellar quote demonstrates, and it set the course of his entire career.
    • I understand that, but surely we can get the point across without the whole "beauty" of a language bit, doesn't read very neutrally.
      • Attributed. The point is, the perceived beauty is his, not Wikipedia's.
• "Many years later, he wrote" who wrote this? Tolkien or Lönnrot?
  • Attributed.
• "He made use of some of the features of Finnish in his Elvish language, Quenya." This is actually a really cool fact, but under the "LIKELY influences" section, it feels a little out of place. I suggest moving it elsewhere.
  • Um, given that we've just set in context how in love he was with Finland, Finnish, and the Kalevala, it fits perfectly where it is. Even if we can find a home for it elsewhere, we'd just be causing fragmentation where we have a single flowing thought at the moment.
    • Okay, I get it now, thanks.
• I'm not sure about how necessary the table is, it doesn't add much.
  • Very necessary; it provides a rich but compact survey of the context of Tolkien's life-changing decision, and it's solidly cited. I've sorted the entries by date to make it clear that his mythology followed all the others.
    • Fair enough!

Origins

• "University, from 1911" why "from" and not "in"?
  • Three years there, with at most small beginnings in the first year.
    • Thanks for clarifying.
• "His interest in the languages in which the mythologies were written including Finnish, which he studied from a grammar book, and Welsh; he found both languages beautiful." → "His fascination in the languages used to write the mythology included Welsh and Finnish, which he learnt from a grammar book and thought were both beautiful." (less wordy).
  • It's only one word shorter, and it works less well for me in British English.
    • It still doesn't read very easily for a general reader, like myself.
      • Edited.
• I don't see why the paragraphs have been split here, as the second one is only one sentence long and flows fairly well.
  • Closed up.

A reconstructed prehistory

• "Tolkien recognised that any actual English mythology, which he presumed, by analogy with Norse mythology and the clues that remain, to have existed until Anglo-Saxon times, had been extinguished." try rewording, this is pretty wordy.
  • Split sentence.
• Introduce Nicholas Birns.
  • Glossed.

Old English heroes, races, and monsters

• "guidance" doesn't feel like the right word...
  • Edited.
• Remove "much".
  • Edited.
• Add a colon after "that".
  • Done.
• "he used a character of the same name in his abandoned time travel novel The Lost Road." remove, unnecessary.
  • No, it shows he carried on tinkering with the idea.
    • Fine.

A reflection of 20th century England

• "20th century" → "twentieth-century".
  • Done.
    • It should be hyphenated.
      • Actually the MoS neither mandates the change from 20th, nor the hyphen: indeed it discusses "Era style" and "Centuries and millennia" with non-hyphenated examples.

• This paragraph only discusses one person's viewpoint, so I don't think the title is accurate. I think since there are many uses of scholar's responses throughout this article, that should be a section of its own with subheadings.
  • Gosh. The section seems to me to be quite separate from the others, with a strong theme, that of the relationship of the mythology to England in Tolkien's adult lifetime. Where the rest of the article looks at how the mythology is rooted in other mythologies and the past, this looks at how well-fitted it is to his contemporary experience, including the First World War, the shocked state of England afterwards (think of the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl Blues in America), the collapse of the British Empire. We shouldn't wish to merge this with anything else.
• The first block quote can be paraphrased.
  • If it could, it would be with serious loss of effect. The words are Tolkien's, explicitly reused—with shifted meaning—by Flieger. This is a rare manoeuvre, and it was certainly deliberate, turning Tolkien's thoughts about Beowulf into her thoughts about his mythology. I wouldn't seek to improve on Flieger's words, and certainly not on Tolkien's in this situation.
    • I see the argument, you can leave it.

A mythology for Britain, or Europe

• Like above, I believe a responses section would be appropriate for sections like this.
  • The bigger-than-England question is a separate aspect of the mythology; it wouldn't fit well in any other section of the article. It's certainly a minority view, but Fimi is a big enough scholar to say such a thing.
    • I think it's safe to say that the average reader has never heard of this person.
      • Added gloss at first instance; she is also wikilinked to her article. The point here is not her popular fame but her scholarly influence.

Responses heading?

• Okay, we'll take the discussion here. Respectfully, it doesn't appear that the topic has had a significant influence on popular culture as it exists today. I'm willing to forgo the idea of a Responses heading, but only if the last two paragraphs are extended—even just a little—to show their importance.
  • The chapters "A reflection of twentieth century England" and "A mythology for Britain, or Europe", I take it. They describe Tolkien scholars' view of Tolkien's writing, and they don't need extending. If I catch the drift of your meaning, you want to know whether Tolkien's mythology has had an effect on popular culture, an excellent question, and you'd like a section on that. Clearly the answer is yes to both of those things: Tolkien's mythology has had a huge impact both on other fantasy authors, and on the fantasy-consuming public, as measured both by sales of his books, and perhaps even more directly by the universal acceptance of Orcs, Trolls, Dwarves, Elves, and Wizards (and even Halflings) in popular culture. I've added a section to this effect.

Other

• Images: Images are well-attributed and captions are well-written, but they are awkwardly placed and there are way too many on this article, making it look messy. If I were to suggest changes, #1 could be smaller and made a thumbnail, #2 can be removed and if not, made a thumbnail, same goes for #3, #4 could be placed at the top of the article, No issues with #5 and #6.
  • I note your suggestions. The diagrams certainly can't be reduced much or they'd be unreadable, their whole point being clarity. The four other images are all necessary in the task of helping the reader understand and visualise the matters discussed in the text. Kullervo to the top? Ok, let's try that now.
    • I think it's good!
• Broad & summary style:
• Neutral: Balanced Y
• No OR/COPYVIO: Earwig's copyvio reports over 60% in similarity, but im pretty sure it's a mistake. I'll get a proper look at it later.
  • Its score is based entirely on the quoted and attributed letter 131, no worries there.
    • Yep, as I expected, no real violations in sight.
• Stable: Y

These are my initial comments, I'll do a spot check and another read once you've adressed these. Ping me when you're done! FishLoveHam (talk) 09:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Spot check

Primary

• [2] Y quote checks out (page 172)
• [6] Y quote checks out

Secondary

• [4] N couldn't find the quote, but I think it's down to a page number mistake. From what I can see, the text is only 18 pages long, but the reference cites page 114.
  • The page numbers as shown in Sources begin at 106.
• [9] Y
• [13] Y
• [18] Y
• [22] Y

I know you haven't pinged, but I saw you addressed everything so I just thought I'd respond now! Good spot-check results, just one thing which I'm pretty sure is a minor mistake. A few more things I'd like you to address, but it looks like we're on-track for a pass :) FishLoveHam (talk) 21:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Looking good now, @Chiswick Chap:, you have a GA! It was great working with you! FishLoveHam (talk) 15:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Progress

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
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