Talk:2024 Green Party presidential primaries/Archive 1

Archive 1

Howie Hawkins

Both his Wikipedia page, and Ballotpedia page have him listed as running for president, but he is not listed on this page at all. Im wondering if he should be added, or why he has not been added. Ginger Ale By Lidil (talk) 22:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the issue is coverage in reliable sources. The only citation for Howie Hawkins campaign I've seen are WP:PRIMARY sources like FEC filings, campaign website, or similar or Ballotpedia, which is a WP:tertiary source. I believe editors want a WP:SECONDARY SOURCE to list candidates on the 2024 primary articles in order to avoid WP:UNDUE coverage of campaigns. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 22:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh, That makes sense. Thanks. Ginger Ale By Lidil (talk) 22:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Potential Spoiler Effect Section

Several editors have attempted to delete the Potential Spoiler Effect section for being biased or supporting a narrative. I made some edits that should hopefully provide a more neutral tone. I believe that this section details with an important issue where valid criticisms have been made, and no independent research has fully debunked, making it Wikipedia's responsibility as an encyclopedia to cover it. I'm creating this topic to avoid any edit wars and engage in discussion on this topic.

cc: users who have deleted: @Zander123sims4 + a few new users @2603:6080:E308:409E:50ED:247F:B3FC:B05F @71.112.189.5 users who have restored: @Discospinster + new user @2607:FB91:BD12:20BF:85B8:3CDA:6C2E:721C Politicdude (talk) 02:43, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Given the article is about the Green Party's internal nominating process of primary elections and not its general election campaign, a section about a potential spoiler effect that would hurt the Democratic nominee's chances is completely irrelevant, and its inclusion here only serves to further the (biased) narrative that the Green Party harms the Democratic Party/helps the Republican Party. Similar sections do not exist in articles for past Green primaries (2020, 2016, 2012 or 2008) despite the same accusations of a spoiler effect having been lodged in each cycle, and I have not seen them in any other third party primary pages either. There is a case to be made that this type of section could belong to a "Cornel West 2024 presidential campaign" page, but that does not yet exist (despite the fact that a page exists for Kanye West's 2024 campaign and all the major Dem/Rep candidates). ReallySuper (talk) 05:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the section is more relevant at Cornel West 2024 presidential campaign, which I just created. The section has been moved there. Politicdude (talk) 023:16, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

We need to add more canidates

doesn't make sense to have an entire wikipedia page devoted to a mere 1 canidate 2603:8080:4D00:4514:CC6A:CF07:C0B4:9669 (talk) 03:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

There aren't any more notable candidates at the moment. This page could potentially be replaced with a redirect to this article until another candidate runs. Politicdude (talk) 04:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

There are 6 candidates recognized by the party as formally seeking the nomination process. These candidates will likely appear on ballots in different states. There is still time remaining for additional candidates to seek the nomination. However, it is unlikely as important states like Pennsylvania which has 10 elected greens deadline for candidates to make the ballot for the primary is February 1st. https://www.gp.org/2024_nomination_process Alexcasperphilly (talk) 01:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The edits continue to be removed despite these 6 candidates being recognized, FEC paperwork being filed and able to be verified, and a candidate website exists, alongside the national party website stating their intentions to run for office. I will be reverting the information back to prevent candidates from having unfair censorship of recognized candidates. Lets continue further revisions to improve the layout and look of the wiki page and remove candidates when they formally withdraw from the race or no longer are eligible for nomination. Removing these 6 candidates in favor of recognizing only 2 candidates creates collusion with election interference with our process in our party. I am a volunteer within the party trying to make sure accurate information is posted on this page. Before my edits, the wiki had incorrect information on the number of seats held by Greens nationwide, as well as missing information on recognized candidates for president in our primary, less than 2 months before the Pennsylvania Green primary voting begins. This is too late in the process to be removing recognized candidates to prevent information from being available to those interested. When voting begins in less than 8 weeks, information should be up to date.

- Alex Casper

Inspector of Elections (Green) Philadelphia Ward 47 Division 14

State Committee Delegate - Green Party of Pennsylvania

Membership Secretary - Green Party of Philadelphia Alexcasperphilly (talk) 04:52, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Switch to Redirect

Until additional notable candidates file, this page should be a redirect to Third party and independent candidates for the 2024 United States presidential election#Green Party--Politicdude (talk) 02:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Support: No sense to have an entire Wikipedia article devoted to one front-runner for the Green Party nomination Expoe34 (talk) 21:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Support: per OP. Given that the only "major" candidate presently listed doesn't have a WP article and coverage of his candidacy has been scant (and virtually non-existent in major media outlets), it makes little sense to have a standalone page at this point. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 21:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I switched this to a redirect now. Politicdude (talk) 02:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Dates of the state primaries should be included

The dates of the primaries are coming up quickly. I will be submitting a list of those dates in the reply so that information is available. For example Pennslyvania is hosting their first primary this year. It will be February 15-29th on OPAvote and paper ballot. The deadline to register is midnight january 1st 2024. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 04:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The standing of other Green Party candidates

While the Green Party is considered a minor political party, I believe it's unfair to subject it to the same rigorous standards applied to the two major parties, the Democrats and Republicans, especially in the context of significant media coverage. I advocate for the inclusion of the other candidates listed below, namely, Anita Bell, Robert Cooke, Mason Cysewski, DeShaun Davis, Tyler Gray, Adam Hollick, Matthew McGowan, Emanuel Pastreich, Jasmine Sherman, Jackie Tate, and Jorge Zavala, in the list of declared candidates for the 2024 Green Party presidential primaries. These candidates have garnered media attention from various sources:

https://floridaphoenix.com/2023/07/03/if-he-wins-nomination-cornel-west-will-be-on-the-green-party-ballot-in-florida-in-2024/

https://www.local3news.com/local-news/full-and-ongoing-list-of-2024-registered-presidential-candidates/article_1e12ae46-03ce-11ee-8e5e-3fc55dc27e77.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Expoe34 (talk • contribs) 1:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Somewhat support. The criteria is already different, as Toler would not be a major candidate under the Democratic or Republican rules. I'm open to including other candidates, but there would need to be criteria. Both of those sources simply include lists of candidates who have filed for office; anyone can do that if they want to. Politicdude (talk) 02:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm also open to including other candidates, but the bar for inclusion needs to be higher than a mere mention of their name for having filed with the FEC (which, as Politicdude points out, is something that pretty much anyone can do). Looking at the Libertarian page, note that all the candates listed, in addition to having an actual campaign website (i.e. a genuine.com or .org site, as opposed to a social media or blog page functioning as a campaign site), have at least some degree of actual coverage in reliable secondary sources (not self-published sites like Politcs1.com) beyond a mere mention of their name. There are least a few actual details about them that verify that they are actually campaigning beyond merely filling out the resquite paperwork. Such coverage, minimal as it may be in some cases, should be the bare minimum criterion for inclusion. After all, a mere listing of names is not "coverage" and Wikipedia is not a database for "who's who" lists. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 21:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

There are 6 candidates recognized by the party as formally seeking the nomination process and likely to appear on primary and caucus ballots https://www.gp.org/2024_nomination_process Alexcasperphilly (talk) 01:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Why is there candidate censorship? Jasmine has qualified for more ballots than Jorge and has reached full recognition status by the national party before Jorge did. The moderators of this forum are too harsh on their decisions regarding who they include in a green party primary. The results are they are fixing information so that the most conservative candidates are included. Their decisions are censoring a queer black person from representation which should be scolded by the racism, homophobia, and transphobia it presents. I am reverting the edits. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 16:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we should remove stein until someone adds more citations Alexcasperphilly (talk) 17:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

A New York Times article completely about her candidacy warrants her inclusion. Longestview (talk) 18:30, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

yes but there are more citations for the other candidates being removed and they have been recognized by the party itself as running. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 19:53, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Additional Candidates

With feuds going on over the candidates that should or shouldn't be included, I've found three potential sourthathich could be used to add additional candidates:

https://floridaphoenix.com/2023/07/03/if-he-wins-nomination-cornel-west-will-be-on-the-green-party-ballot-in-florida-in-2024/

https://www.miamitimesonline.com/news/world_national/cornel-west-to-compete-for-green-party-nomination/article_4517c3c4-1f52-11ee-91bc-0396309ebff0.html

https://www.local3news.com/local-news/full-and-ongoing-list-of-2024-registered-presidential-candidates/article_1e12ae46-03ce-11ee-8e5e-3fc55dc27e77.html Expoe34 (talk) 18:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Two of these sources are literally the exact same article, and all three of them just list candidates from Ballotpedia. None of them go in-depth into any of these candidates, they're just passing mentions. Longestview (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. None of these pass WP:SIGCOV. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

are any of these contributors with the party itself? Alexcasperphilly (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Being "within the party" has nothing to do with writing Wikipedia articles. Longestview (talk) 20:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

writing the articles to be inaccurate is bad faith censorship of political parties and their democratic processes. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

censoring the black and hispanic and queer candidates in the race from representation is bad faith white supremacy being projected in the editing process in this article. I am actually a party member writing out this process. if you are not a party member you are interfering. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not "censoring the black and hispanic and queer candidates". I am not editing in "bad faith." I am simply attempting to meet Wikipedia's guidelines for notability. Wikipedia is not a indiscriminate source of information. Wikipedia is not a database. I am a longtime supporter of the Greens, but simply put, some things just aren't meant to be. Stop trying to hype up candidates who haven't even raised a thousand dollars. Stop trying to hype up candidates who literally have ZERO attention from any media source. Your accusations are extremely hurtful to not only Wikipedia, but me personally. Please stop./ Longestview (talk) 20:12, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Please stop projecting white supremacy by interfering in a democratic process. Please adjust the guidelines to more accurately and fairly represent the diversity of our party members or this does project the new jim code. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Jorge Zavala

Two of the three sources listed for him in the "Declared major candidates" section are just press releases issued by his campaign. Does that really meet the cut for "substantial media coverage"? David O. Johnson (talk) 18:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Definitely leaning on a no here. Longestview (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, per WP:PRSOURCE. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 19:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

disagree. this is a recongized candidate from the party. if you are not a party member you are interfering in our democratic process and censoring the black, hispanic, and queer candidates in favor of cishet white candidates. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Dude, please stop. Your accusations are extremely hurtful. Longestview (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Why would I shut up if these decisions project the new jim code? I do not think this ethically represents the values of our party to represent the values of diverse communities. Censoring black, hispanic, and queer candidates is systemically harmful and wikipedia does have an impact in how it represents the values of other parties. Other articles about the greens mention candidates with less media representation. So this is censorship and interference if we do not include our diverse members of our party who have been cited by the party, have campaign websites, and other sources citing that they are actively running. Because you are setting standards of which the democratic and republican party set for themselves, you are therefore not allowing the accurate representation for the process and level of organizing third parties themselves are at. I myself will always condemn the censorship of the black, hispanic, and queer people in my party. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:24, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Robert Cooke

Open to debate on the inclusion of Robert Cooke. He has been recognized as seeking the nomination but has not qualified yet for any ballots as of my knowledge. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Davi

Davi has not qualified for any ballots yet as of my knowledge, but may be close to qualifying. There is a lack of news articles about him so I am open to the debate of his inclusion. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:50, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Jasmine Sherman

Jasmine Sherman has been cited in several articles and has been posted online as qualifying in maryland which i cited, and has met national parties requirements and will likely qualify in my state Pennsylvania too. She should be included. .. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Instead of endlessly arguing and accusing fellow editors of discrimination, I suggest that your best course of action, if you genuinely believe these candidates should be included, is to propose reforms to the candidate requirements for this page. Expoe34 (talk) 21:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Why should Jasmine not be included on this page? 2601:4A:C300:ECD0:F09F:E3F8:A1FD:859A (talk) 22:53, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring

This edit war is doing no one any good.

Alexcasperphilly has definitely breached WP:3RR at this point. David O. Johnson (talk) 20:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I think there is outside interference of the political processes of our party that are leading to racism, homophobia, and transphobia in the representation of party members. There are plenty of citations. Moderators are choosing to censor black, hispanic, and lgbtiqia candidates recognized by the party itself. I do not believe this page accurately represents the candidates of our party, and does project white supremacy in who it currently is allowing to be represented at all. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 20:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia policy, none of the candidates you've suggested meet the media coverage factor. Candidate announcements or lists don't count, and the policy is already pretty lenient. Candidates like Randy Toler, who might not otherwise be notable enough for inclusion, are still included. Moreover, being a minority myself, I believe your accusations of white supremacy downplay ongoing cases of discrimination. Expoe34 (talk) 21:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm going off definitions written in the New Jim Code by Dr. Ruha Benjamin. The decisions made right now are only including cishet white candidates and more candidates have been included on the ballot. This does lead to discrimination of coverage and information accessible about those candidates. Especially if those making comments about those candidates are from outside of the party. Please consider revising the candidate inclusion requirements for this page. 2601:4A:C300:ECD0:F09F:E3F8:A1FD:859A (talk) 22:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

FYI: Alexcasperphilly has been indefinitely blocked. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 23:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Emmanuel Pastreich

The quality of citations for Emmanuel Pasteriech are weaker and there are less of them. There is 1 press release from a small journal that isnt the candidate himself. Candidates removed by the editors such as Jasmine Sherman have more press coverage. 2601:4A:C300:ECD0:3E08:EBC2:1428:C332 (talk) 06:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The stated requirements for being a "major candidate" are:

a) meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines; OR

b) have participated (or have been invited to participate) in at least two Green Party-sponsored debates; OR

c) have received non-trivial media coverage as a candidate in this election cycle.

Emmanuel Pastreich has a Wikipedia article, and therefore meets A. He was an FEC certified candidate and there are other sources saying he is running, so he was definitely running. However, he has now dropped out. ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 16:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

incorrect total of greens in elected seats. total should be 142

Total should be 142 as cited in the changes I keep making. Not sure if admins making edits are part of party or outside of party Alexcasperphilly (talk) 19:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The source cited states that there are 136 candidates in elected offices, with the 142 including appointed offices, while the article refers only to elected offices. ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 16:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Candidate Requirements

In 2020 and every primary before that, the Green Party candidates needed to meet certain requirements to get a spot on Wikipedia: "This section compiles candidates who, at some stage, were deemed active by the party's Presidential Campaign Support Committee. It is essential to note that being labeled as active does not imply official recognition from the party."

So, what's different now, and did editors reach an agreement on it? If they did, where's the evidence backing that up? Expoe34 (talk) 01:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

As of now the green party requires candidates to get 250 signatures from registered voters and $5000 in donations. The information for who is recognized at the moment as seeking the nomination by the party, meaning the formally have done everything required to be a candidate and let us know their intentions to do so, and have a website for their platform. https://www.gp.org/2024_nomination_process 2601:4A:C300:ECD0:3E08:EBC2:1428:C332 (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Also Why is Emmanuel Pastriech on this article if the other candidates are not? With an exception of Davi and Robert Cooke, the other candidates have more coverage. 2601:4A:C300:ECD0:3E08:EBC2:1428:C332 (talk) 06:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Reviewing 2020 primary page and candidates were not held to these requirements. The citations are facebook pages and linked in accounts. The citations here are stronger than the citations left in past primaries yet the editors have denied their inclusion. 2601:4A:C300:ECD0:3E08:EBC2:1428:C332 (talk) 06:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The citations are here not strong at all, sorry. Longestview (talk) 21:54, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Were the candidates included on the 2020 page? 2601:4A:C300:ECD0:6:B3F0:411D:DD82 (talk) 05:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, because the people on the 2020 page actually had ballot access and actually got votes and earned real delegates. The people on the 2024 page have, simply put, not. Longestview (talk) 06:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

These candidates are listed in the article mentioned. Why are they not listed together?

Robert Cooke

Davi

Jasmine Sherman

Jill Stein

Randy Toler

Jorge Zavala

From: https://www.gp.org/2024_nomination_process 2600:1700:3911:BC50:B4CC:E4AB:E4D5:513D (talk) 00:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

This cycle the Green Party has not had any debates. Jasmine Sherman has been invited to two different debates. They have also been invited to two different debates. Would first hand evidence suffice? 2600:1700:3911:BC50:B4CC:E4AB:E4D5:513D (talk) 01:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Firsthand evidence is not sufficient sourcing. If you can find a published secondary source, that could work. Longestview (talk) 10:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Tonight, Kansas is hosting a Presidential Candidate Forum. To my knowledge there isn’t an article being written but the video will later be posted on YouTube. Will that count as a debate with a secondary source? 2600:1700:3911:BC50:4DBC:1519:738B:59BA (talk) 01:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Does this count as a debate? https://www.conchovalleyhomepage.com/business/press-releases/ein-presswire/679743731/green-party-presidential-candidates-visit-massachusetts/ 2600:1700:3911:BC50:C5E2:BB23:B027:906D (talk) 18:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Here is another Presidential Forum: https://www.gpofpa.org/green_party_of_philadelphia_presidential_forum_and_monthly_meeting 2600:1700:3911:BC50:2992:DBA2:4E28:E20 (talk) 11:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Organized it looks like by the person who was indefinitely blocked for trying to post the full list of candidates. Lol 2600:1002:B000:8B9E:0:11:1B52:A601 (talk) 03:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

here is another source for the information about the event on Tuesday in Philadelphia

https://riverreporter.com/stories/green-party-of-philadelphia-to-host-presidential-candidates-forum,131776 2600:1002:B000:8B9E:0:11:1B52:A601 (talk) 04:02, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Daví also participated in person in the Philadelphia debate. This is missing from the Wikipedia. 2601:46:601:A203:2E78:A81D:C678:9D6D (talk) 06:22, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Dashaun "Daví" Davis should be in the major candidates section

Davi has participated in more than 2 party debate/forums, so he meets the stated criteria for the major candidate section. Please add him to it. 172.58.245.208 (talk) 00:00, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Jorge Zavala Delegate count incorrect for PA

This information released by the state party shows the results

https://www.gpofpa.org/pa_greens_nominate_jill_stein_for_president_of_the_us 2601:47:4C01:85F0:2E0D:738B:B451:D3E6 (talk) 16:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Massachusetts

As there is no source claiming Stein won all eight delegates from MA, just our assumption, it should be removed from the map IMO Crazysportsdude1 (talk) 19:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Primary Results

May some one search fur the results of the Mayne, Utah, and Massachutsus Primary Results? Does anyone have them? 24.73.80.178 (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)