Talk:2017 New Jersey gubernatorial election

Lisa McCormick edits

Yes, Sharpe James was convicted, which I am aware of. However, this is not the place to mention it; descriptors are usually offices held or occupations. In addition, the link the unregistered editor who keeps making these changes provided on my talk page for Democracy for America's supposed McCormick endorsement leads to a 404 page, while the link on this page clearly lists her as an applicant for the endorsement. The other supposed endorsement has a citation that seems to imply that she is a member of the group that supposedly endorsed her, and mentioned nothing about an endorsement. ALPolitico (talk) 16:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

To build on this, the same editor appears to have made edits to John Wisniewski which seemed designed to make him look bad, much like it seems that mentioning James' conviction on this page was designed to make Murphy look bad. The fact that the links provided on two different pages do not state that McCormick received this endorsement--this one (archive) on this page clearly states she is an applicant for an endorsement, while this one (archive) on my talk page leads to a 404--not to mention that this source (archive) for the other endorsement only seems to imply that McCormick is involved with this Democrats for Change group, not that she has received its endorsement, makes me believe that this editor is attempting to somehow influence public opinion about Democratic candidates for Governor. ALPolitico (talk) 16:48, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Number of candidates in lead

Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is appropriate to mention the total number of candidates. Djflem (talk) 14:16, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

There are also two independent candidates, Gina Genovese and Vincent Ross and a Constitution Party candidate, Matthew Riccardi. Djflem (talk) 21:46, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Subsection: Third party and independents

Why is this subsection entitled New Jersey gubernatorial election, 2017#Third parties and independents if there are no independent candidates as claimed by User:Display name 99? Below are two references one from candidate, Gina Genovese, she herself using the word independent

• http://observer.com/2017/07/meet-gina-genovese-an-independent-running-for-nj-governor/
• http://www.gina4njgovernor.com
• https://www.insidernj.com/independent-guv-candidate-genovese-run-veteran-operative-derel-stroud/

Djflem (talk) 07:07, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't know why it's titled like that. There are always lots of independent candidates in any contest-too many to list. That's the point. If none of them have ballot access (neither source you mentioned for Genovese says that she does)-then there probably isn't a sufficient reason to take not of it. In that case, the part of the article mentioning independent candidates should go as well. But if Genovese is still a write-in candidate, and yet you can produce enough coverage of her campaign in reliable sources, we could possibly make note of that in the "Results" section and change the lead accordingly. Display name 99 (talk) 12:05, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Here's one source that uses the word independent for all non-Dem or non-Rep candidates plus Balletopedia:

• http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/06/do_these_5_independent_candidates_have_a_chance_to.html
• https://ballotpedia.org/New_Jersey_gubernatorial_and_lieutenant_gubernatorial_election,_2017

Djflem (talk) 13:04, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The Ballotpedia article distinguishes between actual third party and independent candidates by identifying the party affiliation of third party candidates and labeling the independent candidates as independents. I'm not sure why you linked to that, because it seems to go against your argument. Not to sound condescending, but the concept of third parties and independents is fairly simple. Any political party other than the Democratic or Republican parties is labeled a third party. An independent is what we call somebody who doesn't affiliate with any party, whether it be Dem, Rep, or anything else. Also, here's an article from the LA Times referring to ind. and third party candidates separately. Display name 99 (talk) 13:20, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

This discussion got started because you seem to have had problem with the idea of independents having ballot access and that's why you deleted the word when you edited the the article.Djflem (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

What I said was that it didn't seem as though any of the independents had ballot access, and that we should only mention candidates who have ballot access. Did you notice that part, or are you in the habit of ignoring what people say before responding to them? Anyway, taking another look at the article, I see that Genovese is listed in the "Results" section as a member of the "Reduce Property Taxes" Party. I read in one of the articles you cited that her main platform is the reformation of property taxes, but it seems they all refer to her as an independent, rather than as a member of a third party. We could change it to identify her as an independent, in which case the word "independent" would be added back into the lead. The only problem is that she's currently listed as a third party candidate instead. Display name 99 (talk) 13:46, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I noticed that you removed the mention of independent candidates, apparently without checking or providing references which candidates had ballot access. Since changes to article are what's important that's what I look at.Djflem (talk) 14:37, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The results section typically doesn't omit anybody with ballot access. It was on that basis that I removed mention of independent candidates. Now do you want to go with my suggestion to identify Genovese as an independent and restore that word to the lead? Yes or no? Display name 99 (talk) 14:45, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Official List Candidates for Governor and Lieutenant Governor For November 2017 General Election (PDF). New Jersey Department of State. Retrieved 17 September 2017. does not clarify the situation as it uses the neutral "slogan" rather than "party". There is one Constitution Party candidate and two others who seem to have given a name to their campaigns. Not sure if there are any other members to the "parties" other than the candidates, but certainly the parties are not nationally recognized, and likely not recognized on a state-wide level. I would describe them as Independent politicians, and if you agree, would include that in the lead.Djflem (talk) 13:16, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed Genovese to independent and re-added the word to the lead. That should take care of everything as far as I'm concerned. If you decide to change Ross to an independent, I won't revert or protest. Display name 99 (talk) 13:53, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Well it just got reverted by somebody claiming that "Reduce Property Taxes" was her label on the ballot. I removed "independent" from the lead. I guess then that we should just go by what the ballot says, which is no independents. Display name 99 (talk) 16:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The reference, which I provided above, doesn't says "label", it says "slogan". What is the conclusion that is being drawn and why?Djflem (talk) 18:44, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The "Party/Designation" part says "Reduce Property Taxes," not "Independent." So I guess she's not an independent. Display name 99 (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Is that the conclusion being drawn? I cannot find any refereces for the Reduce Property Taxes party in New Jersey. Do you? (the preponderance of references refer to independent, don't they?) What does "designation" mean in this case and why would they distinguish designation from party if they mean to say party? Djflem (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Please see:Political party designation. Ballotpedia. Retrieved 17 September 2017., which states "A political party designation is used when a candidate qualifies to run for office as an independent but desires that a different label be printed next to his or her name on the ballot."Djflem (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Sigh...I didn't expect this to get drawn out for so long. If you want to make the change, go ahead. But the person who reverted me might revert you. Display name 99 (talk) 21:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Please also see from NJ Department of State Divison of Elections: the Political Party Affiliation Declaration Form (PDF). New Jersey Department of State. Retrieved 17 September 2017., which lists the recognised political parties in the the state for which voters may affiliate and register themselves.Djflem (talk) 21:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

I should point out that NJ election results tables on Wikipedia have tended to use designations/slogans in lieu of the independent label for independent candidates. See: New Jersey gubernatorial election, 2013, United States Senate election in New Jersey, 2014, United States House of Representatives elections in New Jersey, 2016. ShoppingCartographer (talk) 01:40, 18 September 2017 (UTC)