Talk:.22 Long Rifle/Archive 2

Inappropriate

As a 22lr rimfire enthusiast and a Wikipedia reader I find the following entry curious to say the least and I sense it is innapropriate, or perhaps not the best use of space.

"The .22 LR has also been found to be the weapon of choice for several suspected Mafia assassinations, with the victim usually being shot at close range in the head. Such inexpensive Saturday night special pistols used in this way are called doctor guns, the implication being that they are most effective when inserted into an orifice (such as a nostril, or ear) before being fired, and then being disposable by virtue of their very low cost"

Regarding the 22lr rimfire round, this is not the sort of thing I would come to Wikipedia to read about. Talking about how one can insert a 22 into the orifices of another person thus the "doctor gun" designation would seem to lend itself to some urban legends website and not Wikipedia. I am suggesting the claim is untrue, I am questioning whether that sort of thing is appropriate for this Wikipedia article.

I am sure there is some nutcase out there who has put the barrel of a 22 in the vagina of a woman and pulled the trigger, should we go research that use of a 22 and document it here as well? Perhaps have sopme links to vagina/22 lr killers?

And are we going to document every nut job who has used a 22 while committing a crime and document it here? Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia or a vehicle to hype weird and unusual urban legend sort of information. Is that the purpose of this page? To document uses other than what the bullet was intended to do?

The 22lr rimfire is a small game, plinking and target bullet, why do we need to find grotesque instances where it was used for reasons other than its designed purpose? Yeah some special ops allegedly use 22s sometimes. Fair enough but "doctor guns" and orifice shooting? Do we really need to put stuff like that in a Wikipedia article? And although only one criminal who used a 22 in a crime is mentioned, suppose someone wants to document every psycho who ever used a 22 during a crime?

Perhaps a more suitable page might be "Gun Psychos and Crime: Their methods and preferred calibers" and leave this 22 Long Rifle article to discussing the 22 Long Rifle.

Anyhow, call me square if you will, but I just find some of this article to be highly questionable.

Mr Christopher 20:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I agree that stuff should probably go on a separate page, or maybe a subsection on "Mafia" or "Hit Man". I think the bit on suppressors should probably be kept, since the .22 LR seems to be the caliber of choice due to the small volume of gas, and countries that put little limit on suppressor possession often sell cheap, all plastic suppressors for .22 LR firearms. I'd also like to see some real external validation of the "assassin's weapon of choice"--certainly the Ruger MKII shows up lots of movies as such, but is that a reflection of reality, or just Hollywood? My general rule of thumb is any information on firearms given in a movie is 99% likely to be entirely false...

As for the term "doctor gun", I think it can be yanked as unverifiable--certainly I see no mention on the web, other than here. scot 20:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and supressors for a 22 are pretty common outside of the United States. And I failed to mention that otherwise I think this entire article is exceptional. Mr Christopher 21:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with previous concerns that material regarding the use of .22 LR by hitmen was written in poor taste, but the use of suppressed .22 LR in professional killings is in fact documented. I think there is enough evidence to support the notability of statements regarding their use in such a manner on the website Crime Library, which has articles that describe a vast range of crimes. Its articles provide accounts of the use of .22 LR rounds and suppressors in killings. However, according to its articles, the use of suppressed .22 LR rounds for murder is almost exclusive to hitmen. There are two articles that mention use of suppressed .22 LR by the Italian Mafia, John Gotti -The Last Mafia Icon and "What're You Gonna Do Now, Tough Guy?", and an article on the murder of Vincent and Margaret Shelley in 1987 by the "Dixie Mafia," Biloxi Confidential. There are an additional two article that describe the use of .22 LR with homemade suppressors, BLOOD BROTHERS: GARY AND THADDEUS LEWINGDON, about a pair of serial killers, and The Artist and the Killer: Frank Bender and Hans Vorhauer. Those two articles are of almost no relevance because the first is about serial killers and not hitmen while the second is about a hitman but does not give specific examples of when he used his attaché case gun for murder. I can see why the mention of .22 LR in crimes might seem repugnant and irrelevant, as any firearm caliber can be used for nefarious purposes, but the truth should not be censored.

By the way, Strong Men Armed confirms use of suppressed .22 LR by Marine Corps Force Recon. However, it does not give very many details, only that they are in their arsenal.--TDogg310 (talk) 22:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

A significant majority of the world uses the metric system of measurement, And as such it might be helpful to list distances in meters, as well as yards.

Yes I agree, although in the firearms world distances are frequently measured in yards but I believe both should be specified —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.228.75.44 (talk) 09:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

I would also agree, but I would suggest that the article be standardized: some measurements are listed as '40 grain (2.5gram)' and others are vice-versa, with the metric first. I don't know which way it should go, maybe there's a policy on that, but in any case I think it would be a bit more readable if all measurements were shown the same way. 4.249.147.40 15:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. WP:UNITS says:

"If for some reason the choice of units is arbitrary, choose SI units as the main unit, with other units in parentheses. For subjects dealing with the United States, it might be more appropriate to use U.S. measurements first, i.e. mile, foot, U.S. gallon."

This is not a specifically USAian subject, so SI units should go first. --Wasell^(D) 08:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This is en.wikipedia.org so the units used by English, American, Canadian and Australian shooters should be listed first, although I do find metric conversion useful information that should be included. Naaman Brown (talk) 18:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Of the the English-speaking countries listed, only the Americans make little or no use of the SI (Metric) System. The point is not which system "shooters" use, but which system is most common in English-speaking countries. This is not a special-purpose reference, but is intended for the general public.Heavenlyblue (talk) 00:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

the 22lr can kill at 1 mile, people underestimate it! Cj3006 (talk) 10:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

This is true. I seem to recall reading tests done by forum members at some military-themed firearms forum site (I cannot recall which one) circa 2009 in which they discovered that .22 LR was capable of penetrating things like, for example, a mostly-frozen turkey wrapped in several layers of heavy winter clothing from distances past 400m, if the marksman has the skills to hit it from out that far. "It's only a .22" is a term that should cause us to raise an eyebrow when we hear it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 19:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles

"A standard rimfire cartridge can have a ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles (2,400 m).citation needed"

A citation is not needed in my opinion, it's written virtually on every 22lr ammo box. Plus, this affirmation is already present in the intro. There's no need to doubt manufacturer warning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.37.252.220 (talk) 23:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)