Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 18

Archive 15

Archive 16

Archive 17

Archive 18

Archive 19

Archive 20

→

Archive 25

Number of links in infobox

I know NBA.com link used to provide brief profile, but right now the historical playerfile only includes statistics. Is it excessive to source the stats from two websites? — MT (talk) 01:53, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The profile going away I think is byproduct of lockout and avoiding "marketing" of players. I assume it will come back. I thought about the duplication, but basketball-ref is needed for ABA/NBA players. We could get rid of NBA.com link, but seems more "official" and then there's the profile if it exists. So maybe we adopt MOS that says use NBA.com, with exception to have bbr.com for ABA/NBA only?—Bagumba (talk) 02:46, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, NBA.com does not provide biography anymore in historical playerfile even before the lockout. Also if I remember correctly, in current playerfile, not all players have "Bio" and/or "Career Highlights" on the navigation bar along with "Home", "Career Stats and Totals", etc. The one with complete biography is the older playerfile which doesn't exist anymore. Anyway, I have two suggestion about the stats and the NBA.com link:

• Since the infobox is now used for all professional basketball players, why don't we get rid of the link to NBA.com playerfile from the infobox, that same link can be found on the External links section anyway.
• Since the infobox is now used for all professional basketball players, the infobox should allow stats from any other website (for players who did not play in the NBA/ABA and hence they do not have a page on basketball-reference). I don't know where those stats exists, but it's good to have flexibility in the infobox. To do this, we could add two parameters, "stat_source" and "stats_website". The result would be: Stats at stats_website. After this is done, we could gradually migrate the "bbr", "profile" and "historical_playerfile" parameters into those new parameters (note that these parameters are exclusive for NBA/ABA players only). This way any editors could easily choose whether to use NBA.com or basketball-reference for the statistics.

The first suggestion is to simplify the infobox so that there is no need for two similar links. The second suggestion would be an ideal format for an infobox with widespread use. Any comments? — MT (talk) 04:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

For sure, flexibility will be added to accommodate non-NBA players, or at the very least to not generate the NBA link for those players. The only way to do that now is to set "league" to something other than NBA. Leaving it blank or not specifying "league" at all assumes NBA currently. Adding new params is fine, any new bios will assumingly use those, NBA included. What I would like to avoid is having to update existing NBA bios one-by-one. Seems like a lot of work to essentially add nothing to the reader experience. Or is anyone proficient in scripts? Back to NBA players, I guess the questions would be

1. Do we only want one link in the infobox
2. If one, do we default to NBA.com or something like basketball-reference. bbr has the advantage that is also has college stats.
3. Do we use NBA.com for active players because of the bio it contains, but change to something else once they are no longer in NBA (since there is no more bio in the "historical" profile).—Bagumba (talk) 04:41, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry about updating existing NBA bios manually. AutoWikiBrowser is a semi-automatic program that makes updating things easier and I can certainly help with using this software.—Chris!_c/t 06:40, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Cool. Would AWB be able to find infoxes with

1. "league" not specified
2. "league" is blank
3. "league" contains NBA

and set some parameter like "nba_profile" to "y"? Then we can decouple the "league" parameter.—Bagumba (talk) 07:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't use AWB to narrow down infobox with specific attributes. So I will need to go through all articles with the infobox and made a change such as replacing the parameters with something else (e.g. change from "|league=" to "|league=NBA").—Chris!_c/t 00:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well "league=" already assumes by default to mean "league=NBA", so that doesnt buy us much unless we can use it to set a new param to control the NBA profile separately. In some cases "league" is already set, so AWB wouldnt know to leave say "league=BAA" or "league=ABA" alone?—Bagumba (talk) 06:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can cleverly use AWB to add new parameter by replacing any exist parameter say "|league=NBA" to "|league=NBA ... |nba_profile=y". And it is not a fully automatic tool, so I will have to look at and accept each change manually. So if a infobox already has "league=BAA" or "league=ABA", I can always tell AWB to skip that article without changing anything.—Chris!_c/t 21:44, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Good to know. There's this template Template:voidd I've been playing around with to find out which articles are using certain parameters. But I guess AWB can perform the equivalent, or are there tradeoffs? I'll try to read up more on AWB.—Bagumba (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

List of National Basketball Association head coaches with 400 games coached

Moved to Talk:List of National Basketball Association head coaches with 400 games coached § Inclusion criteria

 – Add any comments on the article talk page—Bagumba (talk) 22:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Currently there is a discussion on Talk:List of National Basketball Association head coaches with 400 games coached about the proposal to change and reduce the inclusion criteria in the list and change the title to List of National Basketball Association head coaches with 400 wins, inline with List of college men's basketball coaches with 600 wins. Initially, I created this list as the head coach equivalent of List of National Basketball Association players with 1000 games played and therefore I oppose the proposal. There is also an old proposal to expand the list to include every NBA head coach and change the title to List of National Basketball Association head coaches. There is still no consensus or agreement reached in the talk page, so we need additional comments and opinions of fellow member of WP:NBA. — MT (talk) 11:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Note:responses copied to article talk page—Bagumba (talk) 22:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Chris Bosh Foundation

Does the Chris Bosh Foundation still exist? It's discussed at some length in the Chris Bosh article, but their website appears to be down, and I can't find any recent media mentions. Zagalejo^^^ 01:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Renaming of Kobe Bryant – Shaquille O'Neal feud

Resolved

 – Everyone agreed that Shaq-Kobe feud is the best title per WP:COMMONNAME.

What is the appropriate title for this article? This page just went through two page moves and I think we should have a discussion.—Chris!_c/t 02:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems that there are various titles for feud articles. In hip-hop music there are Jay-Z–Nas feud and LL Cool J–Kool Moe Dee feud while in politics there is Feud between Karl Rove and Rick Perry. I personally prefer using full names, as these are professional basketball players who are known and used their full names throughout their career, not their nicknames. Politics-style titles are way too formal and no other articles start with "Feud between...". Therefore I think we should follow those hip-hop titles, with no space between the –, but with full names. So I suggest Kobe Bryant–Shaquille O'Neal feud, other variations could be created for redirects. — MT (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. But I will wait for more comments before moving.—Chris!_c/t 04:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable suggestion by MT. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest leaving it as "Shaq-Kobe feud" per WP:COMMONNAME. Following are ghits:

1. Shaq-Kobe feud 129
2. Kobe-Shaq feud 63
3. Shaquille O'Neal-Kobe Bryant feud 33
4. Kobe Bryant-Shaquille O'Neal feud 24

In any event, a requested move should be done if this is to be changed (yet) again.—Bagumba (talk) 18:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Following WP:COMMONNAME makes sense although I worry that some people may not know both players' nickname. But then both players are well-known enough internationally that using nickname in the title isn't really a problem.—Chris!_c/t 18:51, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

There's enough redirects where not knowing the nicknames will not prevent finding this article. Since their full names with wikilinks are in the first sentence, those who do not know their nicknames will immediately know who is involved here.—Bagumba (talk) 21:48, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with Shaq–Kobe feud if its how the media commonly refer to their feud. Anyway the nicknames are their first names or its shortened version. Their name also unique enough and they are often referred to as Kobe and Shaq in the media. I'm happy with the full names or either Shaq–Kobe or Kobe–Shaq, as long as it's not O'Neal–Bryant feud which is really ambiguous. — MT (talk) 05:11, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Flags in all time roster

There also flags in articles like Los Angeles Lakers all-time roster.—Bagumba (talk) 21:31, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we need to remove flags from other articles such as all-time roster and draft articles. There are never any problem with flags in these kind of articles, as long as the flags are accompanied with the country names, which satisfies MOS:FLAG. Charlotte Bobcats all-time roster is an FL and flags/nationalities was never an issue in the review process. If there are players with multiple nationalities, a note could be easily created in these articles. Furthermore, there are room to list multiple flags in the tables. — MT (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I lost track of the long thread. While I feel flag/country is only relevant for articles on national teams or specific lists of foreign NBA players, others thought listing the flag was fine as long as country was listed also. I can go with your proposal for now with no reservation to remove other flag/country if consensus is reached later.—Bagumba (talk) 03:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I recently created the Dallas Mavericks all-time roster and after an argument with several editors who insist that having flags in this article (even with the country names) still violates MOS:FLAG because the flags are irrelevant to the article and also some American players should not have US flags because they never played for the national team. I disagree, but in the same time, nationality column in all-time roster is only an extra information and the table looks more compact without it. Hence, I've removed the flags and replaced it with a separate section for international players, with a room to expand and explain multiple nationalities. Anyway, unlike the Charlotte Bobcats all-time roster, I omitted stats columns (points, rebounds, assists) since I think it would be very difficult to maintain. In exchange, there is a separate section for statistics leaders. Any comments about this all-time roster format? — MT (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of your portal

Resolved

 – Result of the MfD is keep and the Portal has been updated. — MT (talk) 15:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Since you haven't been notified as far as I can tell, I thought you should know of this discussion: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:National Basketball Association. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:51, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I fixed up the portal. Should we start a news section there? Last time, it failed because of lack of update. If started, I hope everyone here help to keep it up to date. Also we should enlarge our selected articles/pictures stock. It is quite small at this point. Everyone please suggest what articles/pictures to feature.—Chris!_c/t 04:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

McAdoos

Resolved

How is NFL athlete and Tar Heel Michael McAdoo related to NBA athlete and Tar Heel Bob McAdoo and/or his 2nd cousin once removed current Tar Heel James McAdoo?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I got an answer at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League#McAdoos.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

NBADL callups

Resolved

 – Info provided that DLeague assignments different from callups.—Bagumba (talk) 17:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't Jeremy Lin on the official NBADL callup archive?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Lin already had an NBA contract and was assigned to D-League, as opposed to a non-NBA player who gets an NBA contract.—Bagumba (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

He is on D-League assignment archive. — MT (talk) 03:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, which info box should I use?

Resolved

 – Template:Infobox basketball biography should be used for bios by this project.—Bagumba (talk) 17:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I created the article Ron Charles (basketball) and added what I thought was the universal pro basketball template (linked in the earlier discussion on the topic). Someone just deleted the info box because it linked to NBA.com and Charles played in Italy. Can someone direct me to the actual correct template appropriate for ALL pro players? I need to restore an infobox so all that isn't lost. Sorry so brief I'm on a smartphone. Thx. Rikster2 (talk) 23:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

You were correct with Template:Infobox basketball biography. You need to set "league" to something other than blank or NBA to avoid the NBA profile coming up. If you have any ideas to improve, join Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#NBA_defaults.—Bagumba (talk) 23:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Scratch that. You were using Template:Infobox NBA biography which is technically the wrong one, but anyways redirects to Template:Infobox basketball biography.—Bagumba (talk) 23:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. I was following the wrong link in the discussion. Thanks for your speedy response. Rikster2 (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Roster footer navbox discussion

Resolved

 – TfDs closed, consensus was to delete.—Bagumba (talk) 03:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Please join the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2011_November_5#Template:NBA_roster_list_footer regarding the footer found in NBA rosters.—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Why doesn't Template:NBA current roster template footer included in the TfD? They're similar and serve the same purpose. — MT (talk) 03:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I didnt notice that problem before :-( At this point, is it acceptable to add more files in middle of discussion, or wait for outcome and start a new TfD?—Bagumba (talk) 06:06, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be unfair to add it while the discussion is already ongoing and votes have already came in. Even though I'll expect the same results for both templates, it's better to have a separate TfD. I don't know whether we need to wait for this one to close or we can just start a new TfD now. — MT (talk) 05:15, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Another Tfd at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2011_November_10#Template:NBA_current_roster_template_footer has been created for the related template.—Bagumba (talk) 21:18, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Players coming back from overseas

It seems that Deron Williams has already had a farewell ceremony in Turkey. Is it safe to name the Nets as his primary team in the infobox? How should we handle such situations generally, now that a tentative agreement to end the lockout is in place? I have a feeling there are going to be some complicated cases, especially with regards to restricted free agents, so some caution might be necessary before we start reverting everyone back to their previous team affiliations. Zagalejo^^^ 04:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Kyle Singler was drafted but isnt coming back from Spain.—Bagumba (talk) 01:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. If anyone else comes across other articles like this, it might be helpful to post them here. Zagalejo^^^ 05:29, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Nationality in the NBA roster templates

Per WP:MOSFLAG flag icons are relevant "where the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality - such as military units, government officials, or national sports teams." NBA players do not represent their country when they play professionally. Further, "In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when the nationality of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself." The nationality of a player isn't pertinent to the purpose of the NBA or its roster composition, as there are no rules governing foreign born players. As this doesn't seem to be an appropriate use of the flag templates, I'm proposing that nationality be removed from these templates. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, we should not be blindly following WP:MOSFLAG. We should instead use common sense. Obviously, flags in these templates are useful as they provide readers info on players' representative nationality. Sure, nationality of a player isn't pertinent to the purpose of the NBA, but the NBA does record the number of foreign players in the league. Whenever a foreign player won an award, they often highlight their nationality in their reports. So, my point is we should not get rid of flags just for the sake of satisfying WP:MOSFLAG. We should think about their usefulness to readers.—Chris!_c/t 19:16, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I've said this a few times before, but the thing I don't like about the flags is that they force us to oversimplify things. A lot of players have multiple nationalities, and some have even been members of multiple national teams. Zagalejo^^^ 20:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the multiple national teams is an issue because its assumed/implied that the flag is their most recent national team. -DJSasso (talk) 18:22, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Per Zagalejo, I dont think readers should be misled in cases of dual citizenship. This should be fixed or removed. Also, if flags are to remain, their country names must be listed as most people dont recognize all the different flags. We already have lists and categories about players' nationality to fulfill David Stern's desire for global marketing. I don't think we need to put it on team rosters as well, which do not generally exist on any other sources that do provide team rosters. —Bagumba (talk)

In my opinion (ignoring those MOS), there is no need to change the roster templates, those flags are useful and there is no need to accompany them with their country names because it will clutter the roster templates. Furthermore, just hover your pointer over the flag for a few seconds and the full country name will appear, otherwise clicking on the flag will take you to the country's article. Although other roster sources rarely provides players' nationalities, there is no reason why wikipedia can't be more informative than them. However, I also don't mind if we follow the MOS and remove the flags altogether. I also agree with Zagalejo that it creates problems for players with multiple nationalities. If those flags are removed, I propose that we create another section in the team's article to list the current foreign players (and maybe former players), something like this (but not using flag icons, instead use text to explain nationalities and complex multiple-nationalities issue). A simple list like this could have an accompanying note explaining a player's multiple nationalities and national team representation, something that can't be done with the roster templates. Anyway, I'm leaning towards keeping those flags, but either way is fine for me. — MT (talk) 06:29, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Touchscreens don't make mouse hovering a viable option, nor is it the most user friendly for those with a mouse. (is it an issue for the visually impaired?) There is also our inconsistency of removing flags from all biographies because of MOS but allowing them in rosters while ignoring MOS. Noting nationality for other leagues might be relevant if they have quotas on foreign players. I dont agree with its here aside for trivia or it looking cool with the flags (and not the text) —Bagumba (talk) 07:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm not clear before, I'm not proposing an exact section like those on football (soccer) articles, where use of flags are excessive and ugly. Here, maybe a simpler version without flag icons but still indicates which national team that those players play for. Not an essential addition though, just a suggestion if those flags are removed. Cheers! — MT (talk) 08:07, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

My idea is a foreign players sections which looks like the older List of foreign NBA players, a header for the country and the text to explain multiple nationalities. — MT (talk) 08:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Per DJSasso above, multiple national teams is not an issue at all because the flags used should always reflect players' most recent national team. And players can't represent 2 countries at the same time.—Chris!_c/t 19:59, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I am opposed to overloading any field that leads to confusion. Having nationality represent both a player's citizenship and participation on a national team leads to problems when

1. There is one flag, but the player never played on a national team
2. There is one flag, but the player has dual citizenship

—Bagumba (talk) 16:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

For #1, IMO we should list the country which the player is eligible to play for. This should be easy for most players who was born in the US, except for those Americans who were born in foreign countries to American parents (e.g. Joe Alexander). Foreign players should be easier as most of the foreign NBA players have played for their national team. For #2, always list the countries that the player plays for. If the player never played for either of them, then the problem arise, such as Joakim Noah who did not play for France until 2011. This is the reason why I listed both USA and France for Noah in 2007 NBA Draft because in 2007, he holds both citizenship and were eligible to play for both countries. Anyway, a flag is not enough to clarify complex nationality issues like Noah in the roster templates before he chose France. Moreover, several players, such as Kelenna Azubuike, Emir Preldžič and Aleksandar Pavlović, have more complex multiple nationalities issues that can't even be easily explained by texts. Therefore, I support the idea of removing the flags from the roster templates to prevent any misinformation and possible edit wars. More than that, I'm proposing that nationality columns be removed from the player's infobox and replace them with the national team info if they've played for any national team (similar with association football's infobox. It's more relevant to the players' career. — MT (talk) 17:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I support removal of flags, and moreover propose removal of nationality altogether, from roster templates. However, nationality is standard for general biographies so should not be removed specifically for basketball players. For national team participation for a player, we can alternatively enhance the player template to itemize participation in all international tournaments. Basically, expand what is currently the medals section to show all tournaments regardless of whether the player won a medal. By doing this, we can also avoid problems in cases where a player might play for multiple countries in their career. —Bagumba (talk) 17:29, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If the most recent national team's flag should be used, then I believe Roy Hibbert should have a Jamaican flag on Template:Indiana Pacers roster. I recently had a little edit war in that template with several user and IP address because of Hibbert's twitter post claiming that he's American and that wikipedia is wrong. Any suggestion on this? — MT (talk) 16:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This illustrates my point of the danger of overloading the nationality field to have multiple meanings. We need to allow for dual citizenship, and it needs to be represented separately from national team participation. —Bagumba (talk) 17:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I assume silence implies a weak consensus to not include flags unless there is relevance, such as in List of foreign NBA players, and to list the country when flags are used.—Bagumba (talk) 08:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I attempted to implement this change but has trouble to do that since several non-NBA roster templates use {{Player2}} as well. I tried to make nationality column conditional but failed to make it work. I think it may be easier to create a new template or just make the change, forcing non-NBA roster templates to use another.—Chris!_c/t 04:51, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Because the template {{Player2}} has a generic title, wouldn't it be easier to create a new template specifically for NBA with NBA in the title. — MT (talk) 05:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

You were missing a "|" in your player2 changes, i.e. {{#if:{{{nat|}}} | {{!}} style="text-align:center;" {{!}} {{sort|1={{{nat|}}}|2={{flagicon|{{{nat|}}}}} }} }}. That should make it work w/o a new template. Would AWB be able to remove all the nats from NBA articles?—Bagumba (talk) 20:59, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. Thanks.—Chris!_c/t 00:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks like we still have coaches and past season's rosters to cleanup. Busy work during the lockout.—Bagumba (talk) 16:49, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Template:Player is used for the coaches, but it uses unnamed parameters, so can't distinguish ones that specify a country vs ones that dont. Ideas on easiest way to proceed?—Bagumba (talk) 16:57, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

An IP (smarter than me) figured out to just not use the {{Player}} template and use a direct link to the coach, as the only thing the template provided was the flag. Duh! —Bagumba (talk) 00:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

West rosters done. TODO: Coaches in List of current Eastern Conference NBA team rosters still need flags removed.—Bagumba (talk) 08:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic here, but do we really need the coaches' college information in the roster template? I certainly don't care where Spoelstra went to college, his college playing career is irrelevant to his coaching career. — MT (talk) 04:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I dont care either, but it looks to be mimicking NBA.com—Bagumba (talk) 07:16, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'm gonna be bold and remove them along with the flags in the Eastern rosters. — MT (talk) 11:41, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Custom made logo

The recently uploaded logos:

• 2010 and 2011 NBA Finals logos (File:2011NBAFinals.png and File:2010NBAFinals.png) are custom made according to the uploader, who listed the source as: "Custom made. Acquired logo w/o year from Google, then used Mongolian Baiti font in italics to fill in year."
• 1986–1995 NBA Finals logos (File:1986NBAFinals.png – File:1995NBAFinals.png) are are custom made according to the uploader, who listed the source as: "Custom made. Acquired "The NBA Finals" from Google. Created year in ITC Eras bold font."
• 1986–1995 NBA Playoffs logos (File:1986NBAPlayoffs.png – File:1995NBAPlayoffs.png) are custom made according to the uploader, who listed the source as: "Custom made. Acquired NBA and "NBA" logos from Google. Created "Playoffs" and year in ITC Eras bold font."

My question is, are these custom made logo suitable for use in the Finals articles? — MT (talk) 11:34, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, I have the answers from Wikipedia:Media copyright questions#Custom made logo for an event. — MT (talk) 15:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Reminds me that I left a note on the creators page about the intent. Since we had a licensed actual NBA image before, I am not sure what the intent was, and there has been no response. Making no assumption about the intent, the end result is licensed image was replaced by non-licensed image with negligible improvement. Undo the changes to affect WP pages if they havent been already.—Bagumba (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Some of the self-created logos that use the NBA logo have been deleted since the derivative work of a copyrighted NBA logo is not allowed. However some self-created logos, 1986–1995 NBA Finals logos (File:1986NBAFinals.png – File:1995NBAFinals.png), that are not copyrighted are still there. I don't know whether these logos are similar to the ones that NBA actually used during those years. Even if they are similar, I'm still not sure we can use those in here, the source given is not clear: "Custom made. Acquired "The NBA Finals" from Google. Created year in ITC Eras bold font." — MT (talk) 17:02, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

If we can use the authentic one under free use, I dont see why we'd downgrade. Revert back. Since they are fair use but non linked to an article, they will be deleted soon if they arent relinked. Ughhh!—Bagumba (talk) 17:20, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I think I've reverted back to the orig ones from NBA where they existed before. I notice that the editor tried to put logos in some Finals articles that didnt have them before, and I left them—though some of those have an issue as unlicensed, so a fair-use license probably needs to be added. I've had my fill of logos and monotonous cleanup for a while, so will probably leave those.—Bagumba (talk) 17:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Gosh, I didn't realize there are already authentic logos for those older playoffs and finals articles. Sorry, I missed those when I was reverting the 2010 and 2011 Finals. I'll have a closer look on the rest of them later and maybe I'll nominate the duplicates logos for deletion if they are not used. — MT (talk) 17:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

1997-2002 Finals seems to be the ones that are new logos where none existed before. They might need fair use if they want to be salvaged. I didnt click on all the logos to find out.—Bagumba (talk) 17:59, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Enquiry about Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game

Resolved

 – Details of sourced identified and added to English article.—Bagumba (talk) 04:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello english wikipedia people! I'm translating the GA Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game to Catalan. Looking at the references I see the second one, which is used 12 times (Bork, p. 33–35). It seems like a book but it's not listed in the Bibliography. I know Bork is a journalist. Maybe is this book? can anyone enlighten me? Thank you, cheers--Arnaugir (talk) 20:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The refernce was introduced from the edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wilt_Chamberlain%27s_100-point_game&diff=119064815&oldid=119062411 by Onomatopoeia (talk · contribs). I'll contact the editor for more info.—Bagumba (talk) 22:39, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The earlier edit had the full citation in the Further Reading section. I have added it into the current version.—Bagumba (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

"league" field in infobox

There is a discussion on this at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#.22league.22_field_in_infobox that mostly impacts NBA bios. I actually meant to have the discussion here but was absent minded. Please discuss there.—Bagumba (talk) 02:17, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorting broken in some roster tables

The roster tables at 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team and 2008 United States men's Olympic basketball team have broken sorting and mismatched column headers due to the presence of a flag column in these tables (which is not in the table header). I think either you'll need to add an optional flag column to Template:NBA roster header and the other header templates, or remove the flag column from Template:Player2 and the other player templates. — RockMFR 18:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

It was decided that nationality is not relevant to NBA rosters per #Nationality in the NBA roster templates. Since the template is specifically for NBA usage (per its name), articles for national teams where nationality might be relevant should use a different template.—Bagumba (talk) 21:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Why does a roster tables for United States team need United States flags for each player and coach? It's obvious that every player is American. I'd say just remove the flags from the US roster templates. — MT (talk) 00:58, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you should use Template:FIBA roster header and Template:Fiba player instead of using NBA templates for national team articles. — MT (talk) 05:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

User:LOL

Resolved

 – LOL apparently AWOL—Bagumba (talk)

Does anyone know why he inexplicably stopped editing on July 28, 2011? I left him a message a few days ago and didn't realize until just now that he hasn't been active for over five months. He has been a huge help to WP:NBA and WP:CBBALL for his coding expertise. I wonder why he never even left a {{retired}} or {{semi-retired}} note on his user page? Jrcla2 (talk) 20:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Guess not. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Handling free agents

Resolved

 – Wait for official announcements before updating a players team. {{current sports transaction}} can be used on high-traffic articles where enforcement is difficult. Protection can be requested at WP:AVI also.—Bagumba (talk) 18:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Tracy McGrady was updated as having signed with Hawks ... and the lockout isnt even over. I changed to "ESPN reported ..." How do we want to handle these 1) before the lockout 2) after the lockout (i.e. wait for official announcement by team/NBA, sources are OK, etc). The idealist in me says wait for official announcement, the realist knows it'll be a pain to constantly revert unless we get have some sort of protection scheme. Baseball project aint having much luck with no baseball-specific admins assisting. Posting to WP:AVI is too slow and cumbersome to explain everytime.—Bagumba (talk) 22:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Traditionally, we've waited for official announcements. It is a pain in the neck, but it is the right thing to do. Someone like User:Dabomb87 would probably be willing to protect the page, but he hasn't been too active lately. Zagalejo^^^ 00:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

On the plus side, the McGrady page is already protected, so that should slow things down.

Jason Kapono is next.—Bagumba (talk) 00:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it. You shouldn't feel obligated to fight all of these changes, because I understand it's a pain, but I'll be reverting such edits as I see them. Zagalejo^^^ 00:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Add Chuck Hayes and Jamaal Magloire to the list. — MT (talk) 09:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

There was an idea in baseball project to create template to note that the article is awaiting an official announcement for a transaction. This is a compromise to the fact that a lot of editors wont wait for official announcement before editing. A new tag {{current sports transaction}} was created. Feel free to use/modify. —Bagumba (talk) 23:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea, but I would only use it in limited cases - for example, if the player or his agent has made a statement. If all we have is a random Twitter post from a journalist, citing unnamed sources, I would just revert as usual. Zagalejo^^^ 02:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

trade: Chris Paul, Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, Luis Scola, Kevin Martin and Goran Dragic http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7333285/los-angeles-lakers-agree-trade-pau-gasol-lamar-odom-chris-paul

Doesn't sound like that's going to happen: [1] Zagalejo^^^ 02:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Lol at CP3 trade rumours. Anyway, if the article is tagged, shall we still revert? — MT (talk) 03:09, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

In this case, I would just revert, since no one seems to know what is going on. Zagalejo^^^ 03:18, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Although I would also leave the tag, because it does seem to serve as a reasonably effective deterrent. Zagalejo^^^ 03:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Since NBA said the deal is off, I rmved the tag. No sense readers thinking the deal is still pending.—Bagumba (talk) 10:05, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

ESPN has started listing transactions here. NBA.com doesn't typically update their transactions list until after midnight, although you can often find press releases on the individual team sites. Zagalejo^^^ 23:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

For List of 2011–12 NBA season transactions, I update only when nba.com mentions them.—Chris!_c/t 00:06, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I added Jeremy Lin since the article said the team announced it. Im assuming they didnt mean unnamed source from the team ... —Bagumba (talk) 01:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

NBA.com links working again

Resolved

 – NBA.com profiles were moved (again) and affected templates have been updated.—Bagumba (talk) 18:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Remember this time when every NBA.com links we used as references are dead? All NBA.com links now working again. Good times indeed. — MT (talk) 08:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The link to player's profile on the biography infobox doesn't work. See Kevin Durant. They redirect to the nba.com main page.—Chris!_c/t 19:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

NBA.com rmved "home" from the url. I updated {{NBA player}} to fix this. You might need to purge the page if its still not working.

I see home was added in July by the NBA. Dont they know how to redirect?—Bagumba (talk) 20:10, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks.—Chris!_c/t 20:12, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Jabari Parker medal records

Resolved

 – {{Infobox basketball biography}} allows medals to be displayed.—Bagumba (talk) 18:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I know it is going to be at least another 2.5 years before he is officially a part of the project, but international medal records are parts of the biographies of many NBA players. I have asked at WP:BBALL and WP:CBBALL to no avail. I will repeat my question here: I am not sure what is proper. I moved the medal record box in the Jabari Parker article. Any opinions on where it belongs?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:42, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

{{Infobox basketball biography}} allows integration of the medal box into the infobox. Not every NBA article does it that way. The only real consensus is that the medals should not be comingled with "regular" acccomplishments.—Bagumba (talk) 16:25, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Uncited ethnicity categories for clearly ethnic individuals

Resolved

 – A person's ethnicity must be verifiable and not based off of visual appearance.—Bagumba (talk) 18:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Is this type of category removal supported by consensus?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:03, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

He clearly is not white. See the picture. That is a deep shade of purple.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:12, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd say just put Category:American basketball players, it's neutral and simple, without the need for additional verification for the players' ethnicity. A lot of editors add African American category on every black-skinned American person, but sometimes they are clearly incorrect. Take Patrick Ewing and Roy Hibbert for example, the articles clearly says that they are of Jamaican ancestry, but they are still listed in Category:African American basketball players. I believe we need more proof about the players' ethnicity to avoid mistakes like this. — MT (talk) 08:21, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Since the article already has Category:Basketball players from Michigan, why add Category:American basketball players?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:30, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, I never noticed about this over-categorization. It seems that a lot of players in Category:American basketball players also have Category:Basketball players from state. — MT (talk) 08:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, please DO NOT use Category:American basketball players where a state basketball category is present. I've been deleting these all day and the problem has become worse lately. Rikster2 (talk) 19:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I would have appreciated you notifying me of this discussion. This topic has specifically been addressed ad nauseam elsewhere. See Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality as well. WP:PROVEIT also tells us that if information is removed, especially for a BLP, the burden for restoring and proving it is on the editor who readds it. I have no idea what Manny Harris' ethnicity is because there are no sources or even claims about it. If it is notable for his biography, then someone who will have written about it somewhere.--TM 12:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for not pinging you about this discussion. It is not like I went and posted it in the backwoods of some far off talk page. I was really looking for third party confirmation anyhow. In reality, I am much more concerned about whether his article has a team affiliation than in the team field of the infobox than whether this category gets restored. I hope to hear of someone writing about that soon.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, most people from Jamaica are of African descent. Zagalejo^^^ 19:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Forgive me, I did not aware of that until I read Jamaica#Ethnic origins. But still, I believe the correct term for Ewing is Jamaican-American. — MT (talk) 16:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

New York Knicks task force

FYI

 – —Bagumba (talk) 18:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

This was just created at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/New York Knicks task force. It will take a few days to create needed templates, etc. NYCRuss ☎ 14:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Is a team's media notes a valid source for uniform numbers?

Resolved

 – Team media notes are reliable for comments about their team.—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

For example, Jeremy Lin just joined the Knicks. The team's roster page has yet to list a uniform number. The team's media notes, however, does. NYCRuss ☎ 18:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Since the notes are from the Knicks, and the Knicks are in charge of their own numbers, I'd say it is reliable.—Bagumba (talk) 18:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Yi Jianlian

Resolved

 – Article now updated with Mavs info.—Bagumba (talk) 18:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Anyone have any updates on Yi Jianlian? He reportedly agreed to sign with Dallas a few days ago, but I haven't seen any official announcements myself. Zagalejo^^^ 23:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

No news at the moment, and he's still not on Mavericks roster. I'm guessing he still has FIBA clearance and work visa issue before he can sign the contract. Work visa is more complicated than I thought, even a Canadian has a work visa issue that made him missed the first 7 days of his team's training camp. International clearance for players playing overseas during the lockout also took some time. It took almost a week for Jeff Adrien from agreeing to a contract to signing with the team. — MT (talk) 11:52, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:2011–12 New York Knicks season game log

Template:2011–12 New York Knicks season game log has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. NYCRuss ☎ 16:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Related TfD: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 January 16#Game logs. — MT (talk) 07:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

High school boy's basketball All-American article discussion

FYI

Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#High_school_boy.27s_basketball_All-American if you would like to participate in this discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:28, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

American boys high school basketball underclass POY templates

FYI

Join discussion on this subject at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#High_School_basketball_underclass_POY_templates.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:15, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Template:NBA game log start

Resolved

In relation of the recent TfD of unused game logs, there is a need to remove v · d · e from the {{NBA game log start}}. I know that these are automatically generated by {{Tnavbar-header}} but I can't seem to remove it without breaking the template. Can anyone help me on this? — MT (talk) 03:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Never mind, the template has already been fixed by User:Frietjes. — MT (talk) 07:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

John Y. Brown, Jr.

I'm considering trying to improve John Y. Brown, Jr. to the point that it can be a successful FAC. It is already a good article. My interest in Brown is primarily political, but I gather he is among the most hated figures in all of Boston Celtics history, dating back to the '70s when he owned the team. Given that, it seems like the basketball section of his article might need a little more heft, but I don't know where to look for sources, etc. Is anyone here interested in helping me out with this section? Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I look around at Google Book and find something. This says Red Auerbach didn't know about the franchise swap before it happened. Auerbach was not happy because as part of the swap several Celtics players were sent away. This says Brown traded away three draft picks stockpiled by Auerbach who intended to use them for improving the team.—Chris!_c/t 21:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll look at incorporating those into the article. Please share anything else you find. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 21:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Former teams

Resolved

 – Only list teams in history for which at least one game was played.—Bagumba (talk) 07:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

If a player was on the roster of a team, but he never played any game with them, should the team still be listed in the infobox? For example, Marquis Daniels and Magnum Rolle never played any game for the Sacramento Kings and the Atlanta Hawks respectively, but User:DaHuzyBru re-added both teams in their career history section. As far as I remember, former teams should only include the team that the player has played for, but I can't find an older discussion that says so, and now I'm not so sure whether the teams should be listed or not. An example that I can found is Antoine Walker, who was on Memphis Grizzlies roster for more than five months since he was acquired. However, he never played any regular season game for them (only preseason games) and therefore the Grizzlies is not listed in his infobox. — MT (talk) 06:26, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

More examples of players who were on the roster but never played any game for the teams and do not have the teams listed in their infobox:

• Keith Van Horn, on the Nets roster from February to October 2008
• Aaron McKie, on the 76ers roster from February to May 2009

There are plenty more players who were briefly on a team roster, did not play any game, and then waived, but usually the tenure was only a few days or a week. — MT (talk) 06:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't remember if there was ever a real discussion about it here, but for years, it seemed that most active project members would only include teams for which the players made an in-game appearance. (That applied to categories, too.) It's not a huge deal to me either way, but in terms of maintenance/verification, it's definitely easier to stick with the teams players actually played for. Zagalejo^^^ 07:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

We had a discussion on draft-day trades being listed in infobox, and the point was made that they should be handled the same as any player traded that never played for that team. Since we didnt add anything special for draft day trades, we shouldnt do anything here either. Add to prose instead. When in doubt, WP:IBX says "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance."—Bagumba (talk) 07:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think former teams section should only include the team that the player has played for. Easier to keep track of.—Chris!_c/t 22:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess that idea is fair enough, but the fact is that these player's were still on NBA rosters and part of NBA teams whether they made an appearnce on the court for a team or not. DaHuzyBru (talk) 00:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

No way should players who never played a regular season game have that team listed in their career history. As far as the NBA is concerned they never played for that team and it would be confusing to the reader to include them. The extreme example is a guy who never played a regular season game in the NBA but played in other leagues for years. The novice reader should not be misled to think that this person is an "NBA player." I think it's fine to put them on "current roster" templates, add the NBA team to their "current team" on the infobox and apply NBA team colors to the infobox until they are cut, but the team should not be listed in their career history in the infobox IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 00:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

To add on to Rikster's point: It is standard convention for the college basketball, college football, college baseball, NFL, NHL and Baseball WikiProjects to include players in team categories once that player has appeared in at least one (1) regular or post season game for that team. Here's another example that is applicable to this discussion – Basketball player Quincy Q. Smith is currently a high school senior. He signs his national letter of intent to attend the University of Kentucky on a full basketball scholarship for next season. He graduates high school, spends his summer getting ready for the upcoming NCAA season, and then on September 15th he gets hit by a car and becomes fully paralyzed for life. Quincy Q. Smith never once steps foot in Rupp Arena as a Kentucky Wildcat basketball player, and never will. Yet, by DaHuzyBru's rationale, he still should be included in Category:Kentucky Wildcats men's basketball players. Why??? The Kentucky media guides will never show him in their all-time roster, on their all-time stats, or even that he ever existed. What makes this different than an "NBA" player who never sees a single minute of playing time in a regular or post season game? (The reason preseason games don't count is because they are worthless, don't count for stats and are used by coaches to see what their final roster will be once the preseason games over). Jrcla2 (talk) 01:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

And lets not go the NFL bios' convention of placing disclaimers like "*Offseason and/or practice squad member only" in the infobox. Infobox should be brief and never misleading. Minutae like briefly being part of a team but never playing are best explained in prose.—Bagumba (talk) 02:39, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Update needed for Washington Wizards logo

Resolved

 – Correct logo identified. Comment embedded in article to avoid future confusion.—Bagumba (talk) 07:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello all,

I somehow landed on the Wizards' article and was greeted by a big ugly redlink to an external site where the logo used to be. Looks like the logo has changed and was never updated in the article, so an IP tried to link directly to the new logo on the team website. I reverted that back to the old one; however, the logo does need updating. I don't have a lot of interest in the NBA or experience in file updates, so I thought I'd refer this here for someone better suited for the task. Thanks, NORTHUMBRIAN SPRǢC 15:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

The current logo in the infobox is the correct primary logo and therefore it doesn't need updating. In May 2011, when the Wizards unveiled the new team colors and logos, they made it clear that the primary logo is the "Wizards and moon" logo.

"In addition to the two new secondary marks, the team also unveiled a modified primary logo. The refreshed “Wizards and moon” mark is highlighted by the new red, white and blue color scheme as well as a modified font and tweaks to the structure of the logo." from Wizards Unveil New Logos and Uniforms

— MT (talk) 15:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. I wonder if an HTML comment in the infobox explaining that might deter future attempts to change it? NORTHUMBRIAN SPRǢC 16:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added the comment to the infobox with the above explanation. NORTHUMBRIAN SPRǢC 19:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! — MT (talk) 01:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Team seasons navboxes

Resolved

 – Discussion closed. Result of TfDs was delete.—Bagumba (talk) 07:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I recently tried several new formats for team seasons navboxes. In the new formats, the seasons are separated by location, by league, or both by league and location. The example can be seen in User:Martin tamb/Sandbox2. Anyone kind enough to help me figure out which format is better? — MT (talk) 15:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the "By location" option is the best. I don't think the league (NBL/BAA/NBA) should be included because that's extraneous information that can be discerned by clicking on that season's link. It will say right in the lead of that season's article which league it took place in. I do think it's important to show where the franchise was located per any given season, however. My suggestion, if the "By location" option turns out to be decided upon, is that you remove the 'above= ' section that says (in your example) "Franchise: Fort Wayne Pistons (1941–1957) • Detroit Pistons (1957–present)". That's redundant, since the navbox will be laid out according to name/location anyway. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

By location: Most readers will be interested in going to season based on location, as opposed to league. Not worth the real estate it takes to show league also. Agree with Jrcla2 on removing "above=". In this example with the colors and font size, its barebly readable anyways. Nice work.—Bagumba (talk) 18:00, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that "above=" line can be removed because it's redundant. Anyway, what if the team only changed their name but stay in the same location, e.g. Denver Rockets / Nuggets, Capital / Washington Bullets / Washington Wizards? Should they be separated too? — MT (talk) 01:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I would say no. Eras are more defined by location than name.—Bagumba (talk) 01:44, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I'll keep that in mind. I'll be waiting for a couple more days for some more suggestion/comments before I'll start modifying all the navboxes. — MT (talk) 03:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

RM

Resolved

 – Discussion closed. Page was moved.—Bagumba (talk) 07:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Members of this project may be interested in weighting in on a requested move at Talk:Marshon Brooks. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 08:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

All-Star Rookie Game

Since the league has changed the Rookie Game format, should we continue writing about the new NBA All-Star Weekend Rising Stars Challenge in NBA All-Star Weekend Rookie Challenge or should we create another article for the Rising Stars Challenge? — MT (talk) 05:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we need a new article. The rookie game has gone through format changes before (rookies vs rookies, rookies vs sophomores), and those are both discussed in the article we already have. (We might need to move that article to a different title, though.) Zagalejo^^^ 07:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I also thought so, but I think we definitely need a new article title since it's no longer called Rookie Challenge. We need a title that is suitable for all formats of the rookie game, perhaps NBA All-Star Weekend Rookie Game? — MT (talk) 13:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Or maybe NBA All-Star Weekend rookie games. Zagalejo^^^ 03:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Any reason to not just use the official name Rising Stars Challenge? Also, is there a need to prefix events with "NBA All-Star Weekend" in cases where disambiguation is not needed and it is the common name, e.g. Slam Dunk Contest as opposed to NBA All-Star Weekend Slam Dunk Contest and Three-Point Shootout. Skills Challenge is semi-generic; I might see the need to disambiguate there, but there isnt any other "Skills Challenge" article anyways. The opening sentence in the lead will clearly explain it is an NBA All-Star event, so I dont think it is needed in the article title.—Bagumba (talk) 04:04, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

An example of the simplified name convention is Home Run Derby, which is part of MLB All-Star.—Bagumba (talk) 04:06, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind using the new official name Rising Stars Challenge, as long as the lead clearly mentions: "previously known as Rookie Challenge". I also don't mind if we drop the "NBA All-Star Weekend" prefix from the article title, those titles are redirects to the NBA All-Star Weekend events anyway. — MT (talk) 04:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on move request at Talk:NBA_All-Star_Weekend_Rookie_Challenge#Requested_move. Rising Stars Challenge was already a redirect, so a simple move was not possible.—Bagumba (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Assessments

So using this projects importance scale as a guide, I reassessed a lot of articles. There are several categories of topics that I believe need to be clarified. NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Players

It seems to me that all former NBA players who are in the Hall of Fame should be high priority. Beyond that it gets a bit hazy. If Steve Nash should be high priority, who else should? Who is an important player? I'm not sure how exactly how to define this, but it seems to me that an elite player qualifies. How do we define an elite player? I think that the Derrick Rose Rule can be used by this WikiProject to answer that question, but consensus is needed.

For those players articles that should not be high priority, how do we separate mid from low? NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I dont agree that players like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant are changed from top to high importance while the Los Angeles Clippers remain at top importance. The NBA is marketed as a player's league, and a team such as the Clippers has little notability outside of basketball circles. This needs to be rethought and enhanced.—Bagumba (talk) 17:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I made those reassessments using this wikiproject's guidelines. For top priority, the guidelines say, "Subject is a 'core' or 'key' topic for the NBA. They define and determine the subject of the NBA WikiProject." High priority has the guideline of "subject is notable in a significant and important way within the field of the NBA, but not necessarily outside it." An example of a high priority article is "important past/present players." I happen to agree with this. Even if one believes that the NBA was once defined by Michael Jordan, which I don't, it is hard to argue that it is still defined by him. Specific franchises, unlike specific players, continuously are at the core of defining the NBA, which is the purview of this wikiproject. NYCRuss ☎ 17:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The existing guidelines are a good start point, but needs more examples and discriminate criteria so articles can be assessed with more conformity and rely less on subjective terms like "notable", "significant", "important". I'm more inclined to assess players higher, as the league has grown with its superstars, unlike say the NFL. The New York Times said "The league’s most explosive growth years were marked by predictability, the reliance on a handful of transcendent teams and stars relentlessly marketed by the major basketball shoe companies." Thus , the first question should be is importance in this project primarily driven by 1) Project member interest 2) historians 3) fans/pop culture? —Bagumba (talk) 18:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

It is better to be simple imo. Hall of Famers should be high regardless. Current top players (Kobe, LeBron...) should be high. Mid for most players who have won an award. Low for all others.—Chris!_c/t 20:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I propose to model after NFL project's guidelines, tweaking where applicable.—Bagumba (talk) 19:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

That is a good idea.—Chris!_c/t 05:55, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Sharing the scale

Since the WNBA has been folded into this project, I believe that WNBA articles should be on the same importance scale. Does the same goes for ABA, BAA and NBL articles? NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

This was news to me. Aside from being in the same corporate structure and (perhaps?) same owners, the management, players, games, and fanbase are mostly unrelated. Relative to NBA project, everything in WNBA should be low. WNBA articles can have their own importance within its own task force, similar to the discussion on team task forces.—Bagumba (talk) 17:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

All-Star games

What priority should these be? I'd go for low, but I can see a case for mid. NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Its an exhibition game and low seems right. Exceptions for mid are more notable games that are historically referenced like 1992 NBA All-Star Game, where Magic Johnson played after retiring due to HIV.—Bagumba (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with that. NYCRuss ☎ 17:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I think due to the coverage given for the All-Star Games, especially in since the 1990s with all the additional events and promotions, the All-Star Games could have mid-importance. But for the older games, where the coverage is limited, low-importance is fine. — MT (talk) 03:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Individual drafts

To me, these should be mid. NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Finals, Playoffs, and individual notable games

Some of these are currently graded as high priority. It seems to me that they should be mid or low priority. The finals and playoffs strike me as mid. Individual playoff games? NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I think finals should be high because the finals determine the champion. — MT (talk) 03:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Rivalries

Again, some are currently assessed as high priority. This seems to me that these should be low priority for how they contribute to the total subject of this wikiproject. NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

IMO, most NBA rivalries do not have much of a long history outside of Celtics–Lakers rivalry, which might warrant a high; the rest should be medium at best. Criteria could be something like # of years active, # of playoff series involved, etc.—Bagumba (talk) 17:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Low for all except Celtics–Lakers rivalry, which should be high.—Chris!_c/t 20:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

NBA regular season records

Should this be top priority? High seems more appropriate. NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The NBA isnt like baseball that has a rich history or interest in records. I would argue they should be mid-importance.—Bagumba (talk) 17:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Mid—Chris!_c/t 20:48, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Team histories and incidents

Individual teams are top priority. What about team histories, or a subject like the Knicks–Nuggets brawl? Mid seems about right to me for team histories. I'd go with low for an incident. NYCRuss ☎ 15:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Some team histories (e.g. Lakers) are more important than others (e.g. Clippers). In WP:BASEBALL, teams task forces can have their own scale for importance that is different from the larger Baseball project. Do we have this in NBA?—Bagumba (talk) 17:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Any task force can use that feature. The Celtics task force is an example of one that does. NYCRuss ☎ 17:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Just rate all teams as top for simplicity. Team histories should be mid except for notable ones like 2011 NBA lockout‎, Pacers–Pistons brawl‎ or Shaq–Kobe feud. These should be high imo.—Chris!_c/t 20:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm curious why in #Players we say the ceiling is "high" for players but teams are unconditionally "top"? The simplest thing of course is to not assess at all, so what are we trying to accomplish by assessing an article top vs high? I would assume it means all things being equal, we should work on top articles before high. If so, I dont agree with a Hall of Fame player having lower importance than the Charlotte Bobcats.—Bagumba (talk) 07:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the ceiling for players should be top too. I don't care much. The reason I think that teams are unconditionally top is that they form an integral part of the league. It would be messy if we try to argue which team is more important than the other.—Chris!_c/t 22:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The NBA, which is the purview of this wikiproject, is composed of it's 30 teams, and only of those teams. The players are not constituent members of the NBA. As I see it, the top priority articles should be those that most closely define this project. Then there is the issue of boosterism. Do we really want to get into editorial pissing contests? Yeah, you can make a persuasive argument that the Bobcats article may not merit the same attention as other team articles. Do so, however, may not be worth the effort of maintaining an extra complex rating system.NYCRuss ☎ 23:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I would not tie hierarchy with importance. Teams hire coaches to lead their players, but I dont think coaches are inherently more important than players. I havent seen pissing to be an issue to date on this talk page. We can drop it on the oft chance that it does. I really dont see how assessing teams would be anymore of an issue than players. What if we say players can be top, and teams can be top or high.—Bagumba (talk) 23:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)