Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League

A long-term task finally finished!

With my recent creations of John Holahan, Francis Fogarty, Arch Wolfe, Fran Foley and John Blackinger, it appears that every person to have served as a general manager in the NFL among current teams now has an article!!! This was one of my earliest goals I set at Wikipedia BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

• Now its time for all the managers of defunct teams – does anyone know where to find those? BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

That's fantastic, congratulations @BeanieFan11! What is your list based off? Is it by chance Category:National Football League general manager navigational boxes? Hey man im josh (talk) 13:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

That's what I was going off of – it seems pretty accurate (PFR also has just about all the same info). Defunct teams will be another challenge, since it doesn't seem there's anything online listing them. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the navboxes again; interestingly, a few of the current team navboxes are missing dates. The Cardinals is missing 1920–35; Bears 1920–35; Lions 1930–35; Packers 1919–20; Rams 1936; Giants 1925–36; Eagles 1933–35; Steelers 1933–35; and Commanders 1932. @Hirolovesswords: I know you've done a lot of work on NFL GMs, do you know why there's no managers listed for the teams in those years, and who served in the positions during the times? BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:45, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking at the season pages on Pro-Football-Reference, as they usually list a GM in the top part of the page. A few of these that I've spot checked are indeed missing a listing for the GM. There's also pages for executives for each team, which I'm noticing do often stop at 1936. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:54, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Just replaced part at the Giants' GM template based on this. Looks like you have Ray Walsh to create now @BeanieFan11 ;) Hey man im josh (talk) 20:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: According to page 694 of the 49ers' media guide, it looks like Spadia wasn't GM as long as listed and I can't find an appropriate "Jack White" to add to Template:San Francisco 49ers general manager navbox. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: Thanks for the info! I'm also keeping a list of NFL GMs for defunct teams if you're interested in trying to figure out some of those as well. Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:08, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Walsh done; just White left, unless we find another missing GM :) BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:34, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Finished up White; @Hey man im josh: we're done unless you can find another missing GM! BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• Congratulations! Cbl62 (talk) 13:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

An interesting challenge

As part of my general manager quest, I started up in my userspace a list of general managers for defunct teams, with the goal of finding who managed every team in every year in NFL history (also AAFC). Currently have 15 teams complete (in knowing who served as general manager), 2 partially complete, whereas I have not yet found the general managers for 34 franchises. Help in finding these would be appreciated. Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

My long-term task is done too!

Wikipedia:Featured topics/Green Bay Packers presidents! I started it in 2018....... almost 6 years. And the fun thing is that Mark Murphy (American football executive) is going to retire next year, which means I'll have to add one more GA after the new president is announced haha. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Another long-term task finished!

With my creations of Dick Harris and Joe Gray, it also now appears that every first-round draft pick in NFL history now has an article! BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I noticed you making a changes to articles that I had promoted or prepped for featured list nomination! I did however just look over the 12 that I worked on and noticed a red link for Jim Davidson in List of Buffalo Bills first-round draft picks, if you're interested in covering the AFL ones as well. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Might do him sometime soon. Throw in the AAFC as well and there's the following "first-rounders" without articles:

Jim Davidson - 1965 AFL (Ohio State - OL)

Cal Richardson - 1947 AAFC "Special Draft" (Tulsa - E)

Bernie Gallagher - 1947 AAFC "Special Draft" (Pennsylvania - T)

Larry Rice - 1947 AAFC "Special Draft" (Tulane - C)

Joe Sullivan - 1949 AAFC (Dartmouth - B)

Chet Fritz - 1949 AAFC (Missouri - T)

BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

What about adding the information of a former NFL player becoming a head coach?

What about adding the information of a former NFL player becoming a head coach? For example, former linebacker Jerod Mayo played with the New England Patriots from 2008-2015. In 2024, he was selected as the new head coach for the New England Patriots, replacing Bill Belichick. Abhiramakella (talk) 22:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Abhiramakella: Is this the same question you had at Template talk:Infobox NFL biography#What about adding the information of a former NFL player becoming a head coach?. If so, I'm not sure if people here knew that you were referring to adding a coach's former playing position to the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 14:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Abhiramakella (talk) 07:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, if a player goes on to become a coach or front office member, their playing position should be listed somewhere. If anything, I feel that the "position" parameter should not be used for job titles such as "Head coach" or "General manager". – PeeJay 20:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The documentation for {{Infobox NFL biography}} says position – used to display the player's most frequently played position. Positions must be listed as they are at Category:American football positions. Per this, coaching or other non-player positions should not be listed in this field. Just to note, one of the more famous player/coaches, Curly Lambeau, lists his playing position, even though he only played for 10 years and coached for over 30. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

NFL Article Naming

There are still so many articles that have "National Football League" in them (i.e. National Football League All-Decade Teams, National Football League 50th Anniversary All-Time Team, National Football League on American television, National Football League player conduct policy, National Football League Rookie of the Year Award, National Football League controversies, etc. With the RM at NFL, should these all get moved? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes. "National Football League" is itself ambiguous (National Football League (disambiguation)), so its not like spelling it out provides natural disambiguation with the other sports leagues. As it is, NFL anyways redirects to the American football league as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. We already moved to the shorter title NFL rivalries from National Football League rivalries.—Bagumba (talk) 01:05, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll work to get everything moved over on Monday when I'm on PC if there's still any left. Unfortunately I got pushback at WP:CFD/S about renaming categories, simply because someone WP:IDONTLIKEIT and won't cite any policy or MoS and opposes the renaming based on personal preference. Hey man im josh (talk) 01:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

The joys of Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" not being a guideline. —Bagumba (talk) 01:55, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey man im josh, if you are still up for it, most of the awards in {{NFL awards}} still have the full name, in addition to the articles above. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba, @Gonzo fan2007: I took care of quite a few of them today. Should only be a few here and there left to cleanup. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh and Bagumba: here is what was remaining from {{NFL}}: History of the National Football League, History of the National Football League championship, National Football League Century Division, National Football League Management Council, National Football League on television, Comparisons between the National Football League and NCAA football and National Football League on American television. I think an RM on all the cats and templates will be needed at some point. Kind of a confusing mess now. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:57, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah the cats are in limbo because they were opposed at WP:CFDS. Their argument against the renames was that it's a "basic thing" that "categories should match and not switch over" (as in utilize abbreviations). They were unable to link me to a guideline, MoS, or discussion regarding this though. I routinely see acronyms used in subcategory trees and I see no issues with the acronym being used in subcategories of the main topic category (Category:National Football League with subcats that include "Category:NFL..."). Someone, however, will have to start the process, and I don't personally feel up for it.

A few examples of other categories which include subcategories that utilize acronyms:

• Category:Federal Bureau of Investigation
• Category:Central Intelligence Agency
• Category:National Basketball Association (note that these moves were all relatively recent, a lot of which were by me)
• UK being utilzied in a large number of category titles

And the list goes on. So I don't see abbreviations being used in the same way we use them on articles as an article. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Anyone in a article-creating mood?

Hi, for anyone who is feeling an urge to create new articles for this project and for college football, there are a ton of requested articles at Wikipedia:Requested articles/Sports/American football for a variety of subjects, from players and coaches to rivalries and terminology. Some of these have been lingering around for awhile with no action. Feel free to be bold, help create some new articles and expand Wikipedia's coverage of American football! Fretyr (talk) 16:43, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

• Do not assume that these topics are notable simply because they appear on this list. For example, the list includes 17 proposed articles on rivalries of the Cleveland Browns. That's in addition to the Three Browns rivalry articles that already exist. Cbl62 (talk) 19:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think all of those rivalries probably need to be removed from that page. I think we're already at 100% coverage for actual NFL rivalries. SportingFlyer T·C 00:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Cowboys-Lions article (again)

I know the last proposal got shot down, but I found coverage of the incident on March 25, 2024. As such, WP:SUSTAINED is covered to some degree. 69.118.230.235 (talk) 22:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

A single article from a sub community of SB Nation (specifically one focused on the Lions) is not enough to argue for WP:SUSTAINED. I'm probably the biggest Lions fan at WP:NFL, and I can't make an argument for supporting creation of that article. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Step away from the dead Lion. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Josh (we'll agree to disagree on biggest Lions fan...); it's not an ongoing controversy. No rules changes, no one lost their job. Both teams made the playoffs; they didn't meet again and the Lions advanced further anyway. Mackensen (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Question from American football project

Can someone take a look at this topic on Wikidata ?

The question is about a dewiki article about "fake", and Play-action for which they also have an article. We're wondering if it's a duplicate or if there are several kind of "fake" in football and "play-action" is a special case ? TomT0m (talk) 19:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Copying from WT:AMF, since this project is more active. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• @TomT0m: Since no one else has responded to this: if I remember correctly, a "play-action" is a type of fake, but not all "fakes" are "play-actions". (E.g. a play-action is a "fake" run that turns out to be a pass, whereas a draw play is a "fake" pass that turns out to be a run). BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  @BeanieFan11 So basically it's just a kind of Feint in the football case ? TomT0m (talk) 16:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  @TomT0m: Yes, I think that could be used to describe it. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Johnny "Blood" McNally

I've always been bugged by the naming of this article. Like of all the different names, this is not the common name:

• At ProFootballHoF.com, it is either John "Blood" McNally or "John McNally"
• At Packers.com, it is John "Blood" McNally
• At PFR, it is Johnny Blood
• NFL.com has him as Johnny Blood or Johnny (Blood) McNally
• At Wisconsin HoF it is John "Blood" McNally
• A recent Green Bay Press-Gazette article has it as Johnny Blood
• A New York Times article has it as Johnny Blood

Thoughts? I'm leaning towards just Johnny Blood. Simple, easy, no punctuation marks and generally the common name ("John" and "Blood" are included in each name). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think Johnny Blood makes the most sense in this case, similar to Night Train Lane. Personally I'm not a fan of the quotation marks mix name, as I think it can be confusing and it's not natural. Rather the nicknames or personal be included at the target.

I was curious, so I pulled the list of players that currently utilize quotation marks:

• Billy "White Shoes" Johnson
• Boyd "Red" Morgan
• Bremond "Bay Bay" McClinton
• Carl "Spider" Lockhart
• Charles "Yogi" Jones
• Clarence "Pooh Bear" Williams
• Clarence "Pug" Manders
• Claude "Hoot" Gibson
• Ed "Too Tall" Jones
• Gary "Big Hands" Johnson
• J. T. "Blondy" Black
• Jack "Hacksaw" Reynolds
• James "Little Man" Stewart
• James "Shack" Harris
• John "Tiny" Andrews
• Johnny "Blood" McNally
• Keith "End Zone" Jones
• Paul "Tank" Younger
• Rick "Doc" Walker
• Thurman "Fum" McGraw
• William "Red" Dawson

Perhaps we should consider cleaning some of these up as well. Looks like Ed "Too Tall" Jones also has their nickname listed as their common name at NFL and PFR. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with cleaning all of these up. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

They definitely need cleaned up. The big question is, what is the WP:COMMONNAME for each one of these players. Ed "Too tall" Jones I know is primarily referred to as exactly that but I'm not sure about the rest of these.--Rockchalk717 05:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Some of those are WP:NATURALDIS in lieu of the fallback parenthetical disambiguation. —Bagumba (talk) 05:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Plain "Too Tall": Seems a bit revisionist, as I recall broadcasts introducing him as Ed "Too Tall" Jones, much like Billy "White Shoes" Johnson or Gary "Big Hands" Johnson. For these articles I listed, many of the cited inline sources have <given name> "<nickname>" <surname> in the sources' titles. I'd be wary of giving too much weight to recent database listings.—Bagumba (talk) 05:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:National Football League Players Association#Requested move 29 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:National Football League Players Association#Requested move 29 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 14:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Updating uniform images

Hello everyone, recently I've been working hard on updating and improving the uniform template and images used to represent the NFL teams' uniforms. An example can be seen here, where the image is anti-aliased so that users may edit it with greater ease and the image reflects great accuracy towards the new uniforms. I currently have images finished for the Jets, Browns, and Lions, and I am currently working on the Texans. There is also the 28 other teams I plan to work on over the next month or so. I can't upload anything yet, so I'm wondering how I would approach contributing these new images? ExpergeTech (talk) 15:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Infobox problem

I've caught a serious issue that may require this project's attention. At some point in the 2010s, {{Infobox gridiron football person}} (and a variant-capitalization redirect from {{Infobox Gridiron football person}}) were redirected to {{Infobox Canadian Football League biography}} — but the problem is that since NFL football is obviously also gridiron, this has resulted in a lot of NFL players who never had anything whatsoever to do with the CFL, but whose articles are currently using the CFL infobox because they were using gridiron and then got "corrected" (or because they're still using gridiron but it's functioning as a redirect to the CFL template.)

Obviously that redirect should never have happened in the first place, since NFL football is also gridiron and it was never safe to assume that gridiron always meant CFL, but because it did happen, there are a lot of people that currently have the wrong infobox on them. Can this project initiate some kind of process of cleaning this up? Bearcat (talk) 16:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I've created a hidden maintenance category for Category:NFL players using CFL infobox, which I have started populating with the articles I come across. Bearcat (talk) 16:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I have noticed this issue in the past. Hmm... wondering if there's possibly some type of bot that could run through and change it (the parameters are almost all similar in the boxes); doing it manually would take a lot of time... BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

That would be a good idea, I'll see if I can put together a bot request. It'll be a bit more complicated, because there appear to also be some AFL rather than NFL players impacted — but I'd also note that we should probably also recreate the generic "gridiron football person" as a standalone template, which will at least partially fix the problem since some of the articles are still using that name rather than having been "corrected" to the CFL. Then there can probably also be a cleanup project to move people using that infobox to the more specific infoboxes as needed, but it at least becomes a separate project that can be looked after separately from any CFL fixes. Bearcat (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Try WP:BOTREQ or even WP:AWBREQ. —Bagumba (talk) 17:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

You can use this search query. There's about 1,500 pages using {{Infobox Canadian Football League biography}} that have some NFL team category but no CFL team category.—Bagumba (talk) 17:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The move discussion is at Template_talk:Infobox_Canadian_Football_League_biography/Archive_2#Requested_move_17_December_2016. It looks like it was based off the documentation saying Infobox gridiron football person was only supposed to be used for CFL. It's obvious now that the documentation didn't reflect actual usage. If you're curious, you can look at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2014_December_14#Template:Infobox_college_football_player to see how much of an even bigger mess football infoboxes were a decade ago.—Bagumba (talk) 17:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Update: I have recreated the generic "gridiron football person" as a standalone template, as it existed prior to the page move, and updated the documentation from the obviously incorrect "only for CFL players" to a "please move people to one of the more specific NFL, AFL, CFL or college football infoboxes where possible" statement. I'll file a bot request later today, but there's a bit of other cleanup work I have to get through first, like removing the maintenance category from the people I've already added it to who don't need it anymore given that I've recreated the old template. Bearcat (talk) 18:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, if it's no longer redirecting to CFL, a revised query for {{Infobox gridiron football person}} on NFL only pages is here—Bagumba (talk) 18:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, there's pages like Vai Sikahema of an NFL-only player that directly uses Infobox Canadian Football League biography. So the original query I gave is still helpful.—Bagumba (talk) 18:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I have now further reverted "Infobox CFL biography" back to "Infobox gridiron football person" on everybody else that I had already added to the maintenance category — however, that only covers off people who had ended up in Category:Pages using infobox Canadian Football League biography with unknown parameters for one reason or another (which is what tipped me off to this problem in the first place), so it's reduced the number in Bagumba's query above from 1,500 to 1,051, but obviously that's still a damn lot of people. So I'll file a bot request shortly, but I'll also look into whether it's possible to have somebody familiar with complex template coding add automatic hidden maintenance categories to the gridiron template to sort them for "should be moved to one of the league-specific templates" status. Obviously the gridiron template isn't nearly as wrong as the CFL template is, so that won't be nearly as urgent to fix and can be more of a "work at your own pace" project for the longer term. Bearcat (talk) 18:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, it's less maintenance in the long run if we could merge all the pro players (US+Canada) and even college. {{Infobox basketball biography}} does that for basketball. However, in the past, football wanted everything custom. Then we have to transform after each draft. And we squabble when a player plays in both the NFL and CFL.—Bagumba (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

That's true as well. It's entirely possible to write template code that can account for all the variables, so that there really isn't any pressing need for each league to maintain its own separate infobox — that's also what's done for politicians, so that there's just one generic {{Infobox officeholder}} that codes for all the variables, instead of American presidents and American congresspeople and American state legislators and American state governors and and Canadian prime ministers and Canadian federal MPs and Canadian provincial MLAs and Canadian provincial legislators and British and French and German and Italian politicians all each getting their own unique country-and-role-specific infoboxes.

So I'd honestly have no objection to that solution either, other than that it's complex enough that it may take a while to implement, and probably isn't a thing we could just whip up in a flash to solve this within five minutes. Bearcat (talk) 19:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

College in lead (again)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

So on the discussion about the way we describe what team a player played for in college in February, Bagumba (talk · contribs) says "I'd suggest modifying the body to something like "Araiza committed to play college football at San Diego State University (SDSU) for the Aztecs..." I've seen the argument made that non-sports fans and non-Americans may be more familiar with the university, so a link to it at some point makes the connection more obvious." but what amount of support does this have? It has become an issue on J. J. McCarthy's page, where Centurion Seraph (talk · contribs) continues to revert every edit returning to the former. Could we please settle this once and for all and codify it as a guideline one way or the other? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:39, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay… I’m trying to be understanding here but what i gather from that is the University and team name are ideally listed (SDSU and Aztecs) ; which both are included in JJ’s? The University of Michigan where he attended college, along with the Michigan Wolverines football team page Centurion Seraph (talk) 21:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Centurion Seraph: You clearly didn't check the original discussion. The majority of (modern) NFL player articles use a piped link (Michigan) going to the football program they played at and omit the full university's name. The issue is there has been no clear consensus supporting the format you continue to revert towards. But if there is, could somebody please link me? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:12, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Clearly there’s not a consensus if there are on-going discussions regarding it. And we’re not debating between one or the other, both are included. Just just putting ‘Michigan’ as you continue to so reads the most confusing, as he played in the state of Michigan to an uninformed reader. Even possibly confused with the Michigan Panthers new team to an uninformed reader. I fail to see how including the ‘University of Michigan’ and the ‘Michigan Wolverines football team’ both is confusing in any way Centurion Seraph (talk) 22:42, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

& in this very certain instance, we take pride in the “University of Michigan” name, hence ‘U of M’ as its shortest nickname. This a world class educational institution, as well as a football team. Centurion Seraph (talk) 23:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Specific instance* Centurion Seraph (talk) 23:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I think a well-developed lead would mention both the school and the team, but I could see arguments for just naming the team, especially if the player played at more than school. The thing we should absolutely avoid is writing out the name of the school with a pipe link to the team/program article. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Im sure i have done that last part a time or two in the past, in the future i will refrain. Thanks for sharing that. Centurion Seraph (talk) 23:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The February discussion is actually at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 23 § Link to college football team article instead of college article. The rough consensus has been to link the football program in the lead and the university in the body. Do not pipe the program to the university e.g. [[Michigan Wolverines football|University of Michigan]] per MOS:EGG. —Bagumba (talk) 00:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. But on JJ’s page the University is piped to the university & the football program piped to the football program; do you see anything wrong with the way it’s currently formatted? Centurion Seraph (talk) 00:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

...codify it as a guideline one way or the other?: There's an example at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League/Player pages format § Lead —Bagumba (talk) 00:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Ack. Bringingthewood changed the original indentation here—Bagumba (talk) 00:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I find it less concise and repetitive. He's notable as a football player, and the program is most relevant. "Michigan" in successive sentences a a tad repetitive. What the drawback of the university in the lead? —Bagumba (talk) 00:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Open to interpretation. Arizona State implies a state university, Michigan does not. Furthermore #7 ‘college attended’ states that university needs to be present in the final presentation. Centurion Seraph (talk) 00:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you please stop reverting valid edits? You have gone well beyond the WP:3R rule and have been unable to compromise at all, putting yourself at risk of being blocked. Bagumba can you take a look at the other edits to help settle this? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Dissident93, this is really only half the issue as well. You were trying to add inaccurate information over and over again and I just think it’s ironic that an entire group of people editing that page can come to a consensus on how it best looks, except you every time. Has to be your way every time. Never willing to compromise.

I’m willing to fall my sword over this Centurion Seraph (talk) 01:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about when you tried to say he was 27 and 1 in his career, over and over again. I had to insist that it was just his starting quarterback record that he was 41 and 3 career Centurion Seraph (talk) 01:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Misunderstanding a fact of his doesn't imply I'm adding "inaccurate information" (it was already in the article). I obviously see the error now and have included that in my edits, but you clearly didn't even try to read it before reverting. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 01:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

That's better discussed at the bio's talk page or at WT:CFB. —Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Consensus can change, but let's see if there's support here to actually change it. —Bagumba (talk) 01:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes id like to see as many opinions as possible, to get a concrete stance. If there continues to be no consensus i fear people will continue to have the University piped to the football program as a middle ground. Which you prefer not as stated above. Centurion Seraph (talk) 01:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think people have used it as a "middle ground", but more that there was a bad MOS:EGG "standard" in the past and some people just copied it. —Bagumba (talk) 01:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

But this really isnt the issue regarding J. J. McCarthy’s page which has both University of Michigan & Michigan Wolverines piped to their football program. Is having both not correct and worth reverting time and time? Its been the lead for months now, with no issue until today. Centurion Seraph (talk) 01:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Likewise, WP:CCC applies, and perhaps WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. —Bagumba (talk) 01:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba I appreciate you taking the time to contribute to this discussion. Though we seem to be of opposite viewpoints, you've done so intelligently and in a helpful manner. Centurion Seraph (talk) 02:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

7 should have been struck. It has not been consistent with recent discussions. —Bagumba (talk) 00:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Centurion Seraph Wow, all I was going to say is that someone with all those edits and so much time here, maybe you could teach me a new way to get my point across. I get slapped down like a red-headed stepchild when I do certain things. You should ask for a vote soon and maybe we could end this. A consensus is a good thing. In the past, when things are brought up and go nowhere .. it only brings future headaches. That's all I'm saying. Bringingthewood (talk) 01:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bringingthewood I would like a vote, clearly we need one. A few outspoken people seem to be considered a ‘rough consensus’.

@Bagumba Though you feel seven should be have been struck, the fact of the matter is it hasn’t been. Centurion Seraph (talk) 01:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Sure. But if we're going to WP:WIKILAWYER, it's WP:JUSTANESSAY. —Bagumba (talk) 01:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Life's too ******* short. Maybe we can get some sort of vote going. Not sure if it's a user or Michigan thing with J. J. McCarthy. Hopefully this won't end up like a high school city or official sack stat consensus. Bringingthewood (talk) 03:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

All this discussion and I'm even more confused where the community stands before the OP. Centurion Seraph (talk · contribs) continues to state I'm intentionally adding false information to the article. They have been unwilling to compromise anything with the lead, breaking the WP:3R with both me and Bringingthewood. Centurion also claims "Its been the lead for months now, with no issue until today.", but it was only added by 2600:6C48:647F:7F50:8958:7342:6122:10D (talk · contribs) in February, with the only editors actively opposing my edits since then being Schwabby1997 (talk · contribs) and other anonymous IPs such as 2600:6C48:647F:7F50:4479:7314:25FE:E56 (talk · contribs) and 68.188.185.250 (talk · contribs). Notice how they only edit Michigan-related articles and all revert to the same wording? Seems like a clear sockpuppet to me. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 16:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I've opened a sockpuppet investigation into JooneBug37 (talk · contribs), which seems to be the primary account. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe @Jweiss11 reverted you edits to include both University and Program yesterday (not that im speaking on his stance). So are we the same too? Thats the most ridiculous claim Ive heard, im not operating any other account other than Centurion Seraph. Investigate your heart out. I do mostly edit University of Michigan related pages but that is not linking me to any other individual.

I did make concessions on the last line, so youre wrong. But yes February is 2 to 3 months ago, and in that time you’ve done nothing to add content or improve the page, you’ve only come by to do deductions of a collaboration of user edits. Most of the information has been inaccurate based on you not including the starting quarterback multiple times, based on you insisting that they won a national championship for the 2024 season, removing entire paragraphs because you think they read with bias, and that’s a few of the many things you’ve insisted upon deducting for no good reason, based on your personal preferences. Not to mention you can’t let it go that it includes both a university and team program. If all these accounts are opposing you it’s probably for a good reason. Centurion Seraph (talk) 17:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Nor have I ever created another account other than the one im posting with right now. Centurion Seraph (talk) 17:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd advise you to make your case there where it can be seen. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

It's safe to assume everyone here is aware of the edit warring policy now, if they weren't before. WP:AN3 is the appropriate venue should there be any further issues. —Bagumba (talk) 01:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba I got it. Thank you. By my count, in reading JJs edit history; since the new year (2024) @Dissident93 has reverted the lead nine times to his oftentimes deluded version. Thats not to mention all the reverts and deductions to other sections across this time span and the number of people opposing him.

Now he launches a bad faith accusation at me, regarding a bewildering sockpuppet investigation, is this not considered apart of edit warring? Centurion Seraph (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.