Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dragon Ball/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive

Since this project has been more or less vacant, and now has a resurged interest I thought it prudent to archive the Talk page. --DesireCampbell 06:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Requests

Yes, on the Vegetto article there's a picture of an attack that's listed as the Final Kamehameha even though it doesn't look like it. If you go to the talk page you can see me arguing with Kojidude trying to get him to show some proof that the attack in question is the Final Kamehameha as I believe that the attack is just a generic attack that whoever wrote the article decided to call the Final Kamehameha. Is there any way to confirm wheather Kojidude is right or not?

Starone 18:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Link to article: Vegetto#Final Kamehameha
• Link to Talk: Talk:Vegetto#Final Kamehameha --DesireCampbell 18:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
• DaizEX forum discussion on the matter, consider Duo's post (old topic, do not reply) [1]
• New DaizEX discussion on the matter [2] --DesireCampbell 18:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Dark Dragon Flame

I just joined, some of you might have already seen some of my edits in the DB pages but anyway hi to everyone that has never heard of me, I will make the most to keep them as top shape as possible as I have tried to do in the past :) -Dark Dragon Flame 07:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Awesome. Welcome =) VelocityEX 23:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Wheeeeeeeee! --DesireCampbell 02:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks-Dark Dragon Flame

Big Thanks

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank Ned Scott for diving in and cleaning up the main page. Thanks bud. --DesireCampbell 02:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, no problem, I just go around and steal good ideas from other projects ;) -- Ned Scott 02:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hehe, I started a temp page for the project by copy-pasting the entire WP:SM page :P --DesireCampbell 02:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Dragon Ball References

To meet Wikipedia:Verifiability, required for a GA or (eventually!) a featured article, we need sources. Very few Dragon Ball articles are sourced and most of those are from websites. Even wonderful ones like Daizex are just websites and so we'll want some print ones, too. Unfortunately, there aren't very many. And the ones that are there aren't great. But... better than nothing.

Also, can anyone find online a repository of VIZ and FUNI press releases? I used to be able to get them on Google Groups, which is how I pinned down dates for many things in Dragon Ball (franchise), but bad me didn't know to actually do inline citations then and the work is lost. They also have plenty of marketing spiel, but nuggets of important information like revenue projections, licensing agreements, etc.

I've started a short table just from what I can dig up tonight. Please feel free to add to this. JRP 06:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

English references:

• Pojo's Unofficial Absolute Dragonball Z - ISBN 978-1572435551
• Total Dragonball Z - ISBN 978-1572434165
• Dragonball Z: An Unauthorized Guide - ISBN 978-0312977573
• The Dragon Ball Z Legend: The Quest Continues - ISBN 978-0972312493

Other books which appear to have some DB-related coverage:

• Millennial Monsters: Japanese Toys and the Global Imagination - ISBN 978-0520245655
• A World of Regions: Asia And Europe in the American Imperium - ISBN 978-0801443596 (Great reference here: DB did 2.95 *billion* in global merchandise revenue in 1996 alone!)

Japanese references:

Daizenshuus:

• #2 - ISBN 978-4087827521
• #3 - ISBN 978-4087827538
• #4 - ISBN 978-4087827545
• #5 - ISBN 978-4087827552
• #6 - ISBN 978-4087827569
• #7 - ISBN 978-4087827576

• Perfect File #1 - ISBN 978-4081020164
• Perfect File #2 - ISBN 978-4081020171

• ?? - ISBN 978-4081020195

Hey there, I was wondering do you all think that all the hard work done in the Son Goku page is enought to raise it to Good Article classification if the references and all are added to the article or more change is nedded?

BTW the article might still have the long article tag but it isn't really needed anymore what can be done about that? --Dark Dragon Flame 01:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The Son Goku page? Yeah, cut that plot recap down to 5 lines per saga (per Toei saga, not Funimation saga). There's no need for every charcer page to have a rehash of the plot. Give an incredibly brief synopsis about his involvement in each saga and link to the saga summary pages appropriately. On the other hand, I think the page could be lengthened a bit by adding a section detailing his name - where it comes from, why it's pronounced as it is, and the similarities he shares with his namesake. --DesireCampbell 02:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll work with the origin of his name tomorrow, DesireCampbell can you do the sagas part? --Dark Dragon Flame 03:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Oooph. I could, but I'm not sure what everyone else would think about it. I mean, I'll be cutting probably 90% of that section out. I'll make a note on the Talk about what I'm doing first, and get the whole cut done in one edit (for easy revert) just in case. --DesireCampbell 03:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Template?

Should we make one of those templates that say "[Article name] is a part of WikiProject Dragon Ball..."?--SUIT⁴² 08:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be a great addition --Dark Dragon Flame 08:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...Let me take a shot at it... -- bulletproof ^3:16 08:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok there... What do you think? Created new temp and new cat. -- bulletproof ^3:16 08:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks nice. Good job--SUIT⁴² 09:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Just finished adding the new template to a Lot (115) of Dragon Ball related articles, but there are still a lot left; if someone can add it to the video games articles please do it, I'm tired and will rest for a while see you then, what do you think of my job? -Dark Dragon Flame 10:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Another question- are we going to assess articles?--SUIT⁴² 19:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know yet... since the articles are already being assessed by the parent Wikiproject, Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga-- bulletproof ^3:16 20:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I just added the template to the Sagas, movies and episode lists, I'm not sure if there are any pages left if they are just tell me --Dark Dragon Flame 23:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The To-Do list has been updated! Take a good look at it and help improve it.-- bulletproof ^3:16 02:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Added Senzu to the list of articles to expand, I rewrited it in an encyclopedic tone and did cleanup to this page but it's still to short for an item with so many appearances, maybe adding a list of uses or something like that to make it longer will help. --Dark Dragon Flame 03:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Administrators in this Wikiproject

Are there any administrators in this Wikiproject? If not, I wouldn't mind helping in admin related ways, such as deleting pages, protecting pages when necessary, etc. I don't have a clue about anything related to Dragon Ball though, so perhaps "joining the project" per se isn't a good idea? Either way, people should feel free to contact me if they need something admin-related doing --Deskana (request backup) 12:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I added myself as a member after having a discussion with another member. Contact me on my talk page if anyone needs anything :-) --Deskana (request backup) 12:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty cool to have an admin help out here and there, in case we have a problem. Welcome to the project, Deskana =) VelocityEX 01:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

maybe ill help too Kenn5 23:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You aren't an administrator--SUIT⁴² 04:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

But you're still free to help in any other way you are able to. -- Ned Scott 04:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Movie Titling

My fellow Editors I look at alot of the article pretaining to good old Dragon Ball and something really gets to me. That is when many of you edit a article and put a movie reference or link on to the article, you guys use the movie number and not the movie title. I feel that it is wrong to use movie numbers. It seems better to use the actual title for the movie. Be it the Funimation version or the Toei Studio version, it just doesn't look right editing a encyclopedia using links saying something like Movie #4 when the link or reference should use titles like (Funimation title) Lord Slug or (Toei title) Super Saiyan Goku. - Heat P 21:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the harm in this since there were so many of them. And the problems with using the Toei titles have been well documented. Just using the number seems to make most people content enough. JRP 21:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

What people? Real Dragon Ball fan like us? Thats it. What about people that just getting into DB or doesn't know much about it but wants to read on it. Despite it being a link to the movie article. It should not be title that way and to make this a more general looking encyclopedia site I say use the actual titles not numbers. If so just use the Funimation titled movies.

Heat P 22:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

In this case the best option might be using the names of the Funimation dubs since those are the names the articles themself have, and it's better to use them since japanese titles are so long. Using a shortcut like Movie #12 doen't have an encyclopedic tone to it unless it's Movie #12 Fusion Reborn. --Dark Dragon Flame 22:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

That I agree with. Something like you said. If some don't get what DDF means. He means a link like Movie # 12, Fusion Reborn and by what I myself mean a link like "the film or movie Fusion Reborn" and not this way, Movie 12. That there does not seem like the encyclopdia tone DDF meant.

Heat P 22:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Since we are talking about Dragon Ball films, should we include the chinese movie Dragon Ball: The Magic Begins to the project? I don't think we should but just asking what you think --Dark Dragon Flame 23:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

HMMM...I have never watch it. The only Dragon Ball thing I never actual seen completely but from what I read and seen in shot, pictures and the short videos on youtube. Naaaaa...

Heat P 00:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Just because it was absolute crap doesn't mean it isn't relevent--SUIT⁴² 06:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I know but it's not made by anyone related to Dragon Ball, actually if I remember correctly they don't have Dragon Balls they have Dragon Pearls or something like that, but if we include thigs that are related we should add Dragon Ball AF right? and since it's not clear I decided to ask for opinions. --Dark Dragon Flame 06:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

If it's Dragon Ball related and has an article then it falls within the scope of the project. -- Ned Scott 07:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, so "even this one", interesting if an article is related to a project it falls under their classification even if it's an evil hoax designed to raise the fans hope just to let them down later, thanks for letting me know that --Dark Dragon Flame 07:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

We are Wikipedia, we take the good with the bad. Think of it this way, we can use that article to help spread the truth that it is a hoax. -- Ned Scott 17:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I think if anything, we should just refer to them as their proper title. That's my opinion. VelocityEX 02:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Character Lists

Has anyone started this area yet? Also are we still keeping them separate by series or sticking all characters in one page? I'm just worried with the sheer quantity, even if only the few minor characters show up there with actual details, the page might get quite big resulting in poor running for some users (Ever used a complex web page, it makes IE eat up RAM for fun).

Anyway, if someone hasn't created a blank list page for this I'm willing to go to work on it later today when I get back from work. Let me know guys.Darkwarriorblake 09:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

We have lots of character lists they are separated, some by species or by relation to a certain character or saga -Dark Dragon Flame 10:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Dragon Ball Character References

We really need to do something about the character references. Nearly every character article has an unreferenced tag, Majin Buu doesn't have one but its references aren't done very well. Anyway, we really should get to that if we want any of these articles to reach Good Article Status--SUIT⁴² 21:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, what shall we do about them? I have no idea how to do a reference thingy. Power level (Dragon Ball) 20:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to reference tv episodes which means you have to go find the manga chapters and I imagine that would be incredibly difficult at this point of time nearly what? A decade after it stoppped?Darkwarriorblake 20:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I said character pages not the episode pages.--SUIT⁴² 07:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Expansion: Dragon Box

I just noticed this page needed cleanup (It's on teh To-Do List). I figured it'd be easy to work on this page, considering there is a lot of information regarding these sets. I'm gonna start. Anybody wanna help out? VelocityEX 05:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I did a bit on that page a while ago, but I may look into it again some other time--SUIT⁴² 07:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

So...opinions?

So what are opinions so far on the Freeza article? I think it looks a lot better than before, any other changes, comments, etc? Coz I want to get this to GA but without input or other peoples contributions I don't know what else needs fixing.Darkwarriorblake 14:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Sign up?

Why was my user name removed from the list of members? future_trunks

List of Monsters in Dragon Ball

We need a List of monsters in Dragon Ball. Toriyama shows that earth is inhabited by three types: Humans, Animals, and these Monster types. That's what Pilaf, Buyon, Baba's monsters, etc. are and there's no category for them that I can find. Evan1975 01:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Seiyū

It would be nice if the character infoboxes had a place for the seiyū. Evan1975 03:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Naming

So what was it decided would be used for character names? Viz, Funi, Steve Simmons, our own rominizations, what? Takuthehedgehog 05:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Mostly the original japanese pronuciation is being used (see Burdock for example) in most cases due to the wide variety of ways to write them or entirely different and alternate names in different dubs; however there are a few exeptions in wich dub names (mostly Funi) are being use as is the case when naming characters that only received name in a dub or characters with complicated names that are either hard to say or remember, but mostly we try to use the japanese names to be more accurate -Dark Dragon Flame 05:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

So, for example, Broly, who's Japanese name is Burori and is a pun on broccoli, would be named Broli? If so we need someone to explain that to them because I tried to change the article yesterday and someone reverted it imediatley.Takuthehedgehog 18:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The article is Anglo-centred and Broly seems to be the most common way of spelling that based on the westernised version. Besides you can't just go changing every reference from Broly to Broli and leave the article named Broly. Changing Hercule to Mr Satan makes sense because its a completely different name amd the original is Mr Satan. Broly is just based on the area I guess and pronounciation/spelling. I personally vote for Broly.Darkwarriorblake 18:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, okay. But why is Burdock so special? Bardock is the more commonley used name and it's only a one letter diffrence. The way I see it it's the same as Broli. Takuthehedgehog 21:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

No, its just used more commonly in the nations that have Funi's dubs as in most cases the perception is that is more popular just because is more used on one's own country, but Wikipedia is not centered on Funi's domain only. -Dark Dragon Flame 04:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Tsufurujin

What should the Tsufurujin page be called? It currently uses Tsufurujin, and both dub names lose most of the pun. What are they called in Steve Simmons' subtitles? Takuthehedgehog 21:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the Super 17 fight really a "saga/arc"?

Hi guys. Is the Super 17 arc officially called by TOEI a saga distinct from the shadow dragon one? Or is this just what FUNImation called it on their website?

Because from what I've read online and seen from the show, this arc opposes what every other "Dragonball arc" (in all 3 series) considers a saga when you take into acount: themes, narratives, plot devices, etc. This should really be part of the "Shadow Dragon" arc as 1 long story (it's the same story). It's as if FUNI were to make up a "Dabura saga" as distinct from the entire Majin Buu saga. (but if TOEI said it, then I guess that's ok).

I have yet to see Toei divide any of their series into 'sagas'. The whole saga thing isn't official. Most of it's been done by either FUNimation, or by fans. Personally, I think the Super 17 arc would count, as while it is very short, it does mainly focus on Super 17. Most story arcs in Dragon Ball or 'Z' don't really do that (Unless you refer to the Androids, of course) 66.222.198.121 03:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, thats a good point. But like you said: The androids (first 5) had their own story until Cell showed up. All in all it's the: "Android/Cell" arc (but FUNI separated them both into their own sagas, even made the trunks episodes into his own saga). But as for the Ginyu force episodes, it's similar to this (they focused on the arrival of the ginyu force and had very little on anything else).

I still hold my ground that the Super 17/Evil Shenlong stories are 1 story/dragonball arc. The fact that the balls cracked caused hell to open up, and then release the evil dragons (all 1 continuous plot, with characters going through "new" development which goes through the entire story until the end of the series <IE: Vegeta wanting to catch up to Goku again>. Similar to the android/ginyu argument: the entire "Bebi" story didn't really begin until about episode 20, but everything before it was revealed to be part of the same story as it was all leading up to them being on planet M2, but you cant call both stories different.

Anyways, it was fun chatting. I just wanted to share this idea and see what everyone thought of it. It just never sat well with me to consider the Super 17 7 episode thing an entire arc, as it says on the wiki site that it is. take care :)

I think of it is a seperate (albeit small) arc. Just because it has ramifications in the next arc... well, one could say the same of the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, the Daimao and Ma Jr. arcs, and the Pilaf and Muten Roshi arcs technically. One can't really compare it to the Cell saga/androids, because in that case it was one defined story. Dr. Gero made all of them for revenge on Goku. #17 and #18 existed for Cell's eventual completion. Super 17 and the dragons are not remotely linked, aside from the fact that the crack is what lead to villains coming forth. Onikage725 11:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with you, but even if it's not too well written, Shenron ties everything up at the end of the Evil Dragon fight as if it was part of 1 long story. Also Goku wishes back everyone who died at the start of the big event, and specifically states starting from Super 17 until the end. The villains came from the over use of the dragon balls, and so did the dragons. (The Super 17 battle, which was very very short for Dragon ball, would have been 20 minutes out of 2 hours if it was a movie, was just a big openning to the saga and an excuse for them to make the wish that allowed the Evil Dragons to come out. (they needed an excuse big enough to use the dragon balls again).

Gohan and Dabura

Wuz up guys. I been gone for a while on vacation with the fam. I was looking over the DB articles and I am really starting to like what I see but something caught my attention as something always does, it's about Gohan and Dabura's fight. Can someone tell me where they read it or seen other than Gohan's hair that he was a Super Saiyan 2 in the anime? Please don't give me that " Look at his hair its a Super Saiyan 2' hair" cause that has been discussed many times. Just wondering because I still do not see it. Also if you are going to use the manga for the main source for the articles why but Super Saiyan 2 in the articles when he didn't use it in the manga during that fight? Talking about Dabura's article. You got non-manga usage and in it you say he was a SSJ in the manga and in the anime a SSJ2, but in the article you got SSJ2 when using manga work for the main plot and summary of the article. Call me crazy but does that seem right. So I will not change a thing. I just want to know before I go and do edit it. Does it say somewhere that he was a SSJ2 in the anime, really says it?

Heat P 01:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No he was SSJ1, it seems people speculate he was SSJ2 just because of the look of the hair, again -Dark Dragon Flame 02:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok then since there is no source that anyone has give us I will edit it back on Gohan's and Dabura's articles. Please don't use speculation on the articles. please.

Heat P 14:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

List of Dragon Ball special abilities

Ugh. Somebody's gone through List of Dragon Ball special abilities and changed most of the move names into English. Was there a consensus on this? For the record, I can't stand it; I can't find anything now. Wondering what the opinion is here before I try to do anything with it. Evan1975 06:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it to an earlier version, if it changes again find the person's talk page and post it in here. Takuthehedgehog 16:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I already explained it on Takuthehedgehog's talk page. I ain't gonna say it again... Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah there was concensus only two users were aganist the change, we did these just because although it might be confusing to us the casual reader will find it easier to identify the abilities, just check the article's talk page to see how it went; also please don't revert pages without checking the talk pages it's kind of a drag having to revert them back without a justified reason-Dark Dragon Flame 01:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It is quite idiotic for someone to revert an article without seeing if it was discussed first. Power level (Dragon Ball) 06:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any links to any discussions or consensus. If you don't provide any, I recommend Takuthehedgehog's revert. Evan1975 18:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Jeez this isn't difficult people, just put one name first then the translation. Darkwarriorblake 19:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Evan didn't you read, look at the article's talk page don't be lazy. -Dark Dragon Flame 21:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to let it clear the final score was 7 users in favor vs. 2 users aganist the change. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

As I said on the article's Talk, all names follow the same guideline: use official romanizations. Technique names should follow Daimao's official romanization spellings or translations. If a technique is named in a supplemental volume that has no official English romanization, then a standard Hepburn romanization is acceptable. --DesireCampbell 22:44, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

List of Dragon Ball special abilities has been temporarily fully protected. All Dragon Ball WikiProject members, please see the respective talk page to solve the dispute. It seems that we're gonna go by Steve Simmons subtitled names, so let's just get all of the examples from Daimao straightened out on that talk page A.S.A.P.!!! Power level (Dragon Ball) 20:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

List of articles that need renaming

I figured if we're going to use all official English translations, a list of articles that need renaming would come in handy. Here's what I've found, go ahead and add others that you find too, but please only list articles that the character's name is in the title of, as they need to be moved to be changed, unlike lists where they can just be edited.

• Broly
• Tsufurujin
• Rou Dai Kaioshin
• All android characters, including Super 17
• Muten-Rôshi
• Uranai Baba
• Piccolo Daimaō
• Paikuhan
• Dabura

Articles I've found that I'm not sure need renaming are Uub (Dragon Ball) and Majin Buu. Takuthehedgehog 00:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Since when is Dabura not called Dabura? He sure as hell was in the episodes I watched. No-one looks for Doubler. Broly is ok too. Steve Simmons does the translations from Japanese to English for FUNimation. His translation is used for the subtitles for the Japanese version of the show on all of FUNimation's Dragon Ball Z DVDs. Takuthehedgehog 00:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, the UK version and the US version I have, though I don't know which organisation it is by, both call him Dabura and I'm pretty sure that's more the accepted name than Dabra.Darkwarriorblake 00:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, I reiterate, what we believe is a more proper romanization is not at issue here. WP:Anime states we should be using official romanizations if possible. Whatever Daimao uses is what we should use.

And, as I've said before, every character entry should have at least a small section detailing the character's name. --DesireCampbell 01:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

"Piccolo Daimaō" in the Japanese Wikipedia translates to "Piccolo Large Devil" (ピッコロ大魔王) "Large", "Grand", "Great", etc., can mean Dai. Mao is anything that has to do with "Evil", "Demon", "Devil", etc.,: Perhaps this is the name we should use for him, "Piccolo Great Demon" or "Great Demon Piccolo" (or perhaps something of the nature)... Power level (Dragon Ball) 03:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

About Dabura, yes Dabra sounds unusual but the point of that name is to keep the name puns going (Bibidi Babidi Buu) and it's the best of the romantizations no matter if it sounds good or not, we can't let something as meaningless as that stand in the way of doing things the way we should. In this case the romatization should be used to keep the pun alive so should be the case with Broly. -Dark Dragon Flame 04:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

However not all articles should have the official romatization as title, just tought I should let what I think clear. -Dark Dragon Flame 04:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not? If they type in the dub, manga, or some other name it would redirect them anyways. Takuthehedgehog 04:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Because if we rename all the pages we would have to rename all the links directing there in the other pages and that might take a while, there is more important stuff to do with the Dragon Ball pages like expanding content or doing cleanup. -Dark Dragon Flame 05:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

A good point. This stuff can wait until all of that is done. Takuthehedgehog 05:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you just need to take care of double redirects when renaming. Normal redirects really don't harm anything. -- Ned Scott 05:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't get why Funimation's are 'official'. Still, theres whats 'official' and what people will be actually searching for. Hercule redirecting to Mr Satan, that makes sense, it was a stupid PC name change and most DBZ fans know from net lurkings what his real name is meant to be. But Dabra? I'm not a Dabura fan or anything but who actually calls him Dabra? Naming should at least be sensible. Is Piccolo Daimou actually called Great Demon Piccolo in Dragon Ball? I've never watched it.Darkwarriorblake 14:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

He is called "King Piccolo" in the FUNimation dubb. He is called "Demon Lord Piccolo" (or "Demon King Piccolo) in the Viz manga. Since Wikipedia is not censored, we shouldn't go by any of those. We should title the article something like Piccolo Great Devil, Piccolo Large Devil, Piccolo Grand [Lord] Devil, etc. Or, in this case since WP:UE, and for the name to make sense, it should be Devil Lord Piccolo, Demon Lord Piccolo, or Evil Lord Piccolo. Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No. Those are just titles. His name is Piccolo. We only use the disambiguating title to make him separate from Piccolo Jr. (the Piccolo of the rest of the series.) One answer would be to have Piccolo go to the elder and Piccolo Jr. go to the current Piccolo, but that would confuse more people than it would help, I think. My suggestion is to go with Piccolo Daimao as the elder and not translate the term. (It doesn't translate in a non-ambiguous way, anyway.) JRP 20:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

JrP, have you seen the Japanese Wikipedia for Piccolo Daimao? "Daimao" actually has a translation if you compare the katakana (or kanji whtvr) only if you have a translator on your computer. The entire name is translated as "Piccolo [flute] large devil" if I recall correctly. It is a title, just as King Kokou (king of the Dragon World) or President George W. Bush (president of the U.S.,) get it? Power level (Dragon Ball) 04:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, he needs a title to distinguish himself from Piccolo Jr. I think if anything, the title should be somethign to do with 'Demon' or 'Devil'. What is the name referred to him anyways in the Japanese subtitles? 66.222.198.121 04:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have some of FUNimation's Dragon Ball DVD's that I bought off eBay. The DVD's translator, "crazy old Steve Simmons", had his complete name spelt as Piccolo Daimao-sama in the Japanese audio with English subtitles. Which, if it were translated into the English language exactly (word for word), it would be something like Piccolo [flute] large devil-lord. Of course, we'd have to establish a more organized name to have it make sense. But, what we can't do is censor it to something like "King Piccolo", 'cause that's too childish and it is unofficial, hence, it ain't his original name. Does everyone understand what I mean here? This would be like how we compromised for Mr. Satan to be Hercule's main article name on Wikipedia because its his original name. Power level (Dragon Ball) 06:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Does noone listen to me?

"Why are Funimation translations 'official'?" Because they're legitimately licensed products. Funimation has a license for, apparently, all English speaking countries. While there are several English dubs that vary from country to country (or from year to year), the home releases all contain the same Japanese audio with subtitles.

We use this as our translation of choice because it is (1) accurate, and (2) (more) widely available (than any other English version). This falls in line with WP:NAME, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MOS-JA, and WP:Anime guidelines.

"We should title the article something like Piccolo Great Devil." No. "Daimao" is not part of his name, really. It's a title. Like Muten Roshi, or Kame sennin, or Kami, or Saichoro. "Daimao" is used to distinguish one Piccolo from the other. As our guidelines state, we should use whatever name the official romanizations give him. If Simmons translates the name as 'Great Demon King Piccolo', then use that. If he uses 'Piccolo Daimao', then use that.

"I'm not a Dabura fan or anything but who actually calls him Dabra?" Um, I do. But that's not the point. What names we choose should not rest on which ones we like - we should rely on official romanizations, as the guidelines state.

Have I not been clear on this in the past? The guidelines are in place, and they make sense. Am I missing some obscure reason as to why we shouldn't follow them? --DesireCampbell 05:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually,someone else translated Dragon Ball. But that's beside the point. Who here actually has FUNimation DVDs and can check for the names used in the Japanese subtitles? I know I don't have any DVDs, outside of DBZ movies 1-3, 8, and 10-13. Takuthehedgehog 15:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a few of Funimation's Dragon Ball DVDs. What would you like to know? Power level (Dragon Ball) 06:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to know what the Japanese subtitle track translates Tsufurujin, Rou Dai Kaioshin, Muten-Rôshi, Uranai Baba, Piccolo Daimaō, and Dabura as. I already know that Jinzoningen (Android in the dub) is translated as Artificial Human, Paikuhan as Pikehan, and Broly as Broli, but I don't know about the other characters since I don't have those DVDs. Thanks PL. Takuthehedgehog 16:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't buy the new uncut DBZ collection yet, but I will as soon as I get paid $_$. But I do have some of the Dragon Ball DVDs. The Piccolo Daimao arc (my favorite since it has the most onscreen deaths) the main names are: Piccolo Daimao-sama, Muten Roshi-sama, Uranai Baba, and that's pretty much the names the Japanese audio uses. I'm not sure about Burori, Dabura and the others since I don't have those DBZ DVDs. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

In all cases, but especially Muten Roshi and Chichi, punctuation is very important. Is it "Chichi", ChiChi", Chi Chi", "Chi-Chi"... If any accents are used (though I doubt they are) they need to be included as well. Also, I'd like to ask everyone's opinion on what to name Muten Roshi's article: Muten Roshi, or Kame sennin. Is there any reason why one should (or would) be better? --DesireCampbell 18:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Just got done watching DBZ Movie 2 for the first time. In it, Muten Roshi is called... Muten Roshi. Also, Oolong mistakes Piccolo for Piccolo Daimao, and calls him Piccolo Daimao, without the line over the o. Also, Muten Roshi's article should be called Muten Roshi IMO, since thats what most people call him and because Daimao translates Kame Senin as(atleast when Goku says it) Old Man Turtle Hermet, or something like that. Takuthehedgehog 23:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Really? Are you sure Simmons isn't translating じいちゃん (Jiichan) as "old timer"? Regardless, if "Kame sennin" is translated as "Turtle Hermit", then the article, and the character should be kept as "Muten Roshi". By the way, is the "Kame House" kept as "Kame" or changed to "Turtle"? --DesireCampbell 00:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I might be wrong. Goku says it while he's in the Hottub in movie 2, so I probably just heard wrong. I'm not sure what Kame House is translated as, nobody said it in Movie 2, or atleast to my memory. Takuthehedgehog 18:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just wondering if you knew. I was tinkering with the idea to switch Muten Roshi over to Kame sennin because the house is "Kame" house, not "Muten Roshi" house. But if Daimao says "Muten Roshi" and "Turtle hermit", then it's clear his article should stay where it is. --DesireCampbell 20:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sweet. Glad that's taken care off. Anyways, about the Androids. Most fans consider that 'Android' is not a good term to refer to them as. 'Jinzoningen', if I remember, translates to 'Cybernetic Being', right? That might work. Or just have it as #[Insert name here] VelocityEX 06:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Not really "cybernetic", more simply "artificial" or "man made".

_{(-from daizex.com-)}

人造人間 (jinzôningen)

kanji	sound	meaning
人	jin	person
造	zô	create, make, construct
人	nin	person
間	gen	interval, space

人造人間 (jinzôningen)

kanji	sound	meaning
人造	jinzô	artificial
人間	ningen	human being

And it's clear that while most of Gero's creations are, in fact, androids, 17 and 18 are clearly cyborgs.

There are four ways we can choose to name these characters:

1. "Jinzôningen ##" - Simply use the original term. It's extremely accurate (as it's the actual word), but not well known, and could prove rather confusing.

2. "Android #14, Android #8, Cyborg #18" - Use "Android" for characters that are androids, and "Cyborg" for #17 and #18 (and maybe Dr. Gero?). This option makes it clear that #17 and #18 are cyborgs, but could cause confusion because, again, the term "cyborg" is not used in official English translations - and further, using a separate name for on set of Gero's creations and another for the rest is a bit odd.

3. "Creation ##" - "Creation" is probably the best English word to describe the broad meanings of jinzôningen. This option would mean using a single English word for all of Gero's creations. Though, again, as this is an un-official term, it would prove confusing due to its unfamiliarity.

4. "Android ##" - What I think the best option is, is simply following the naming guidelines we have in place already: use Daimao's official translations. "Android"'s not a bad translation, per say - though some meaning is lost, it's pretty close. It may cause some confusion as to why two cyborgs are called "androids", but that can be explained easily in the articles. The term "Android" will be far more recognizable, simply because it's the official translation.

Of course, I'm assuming that Daimao uses 'Android' in his subtitles. If he uses something else, then, we should go with that. Choosing a naming guideline is hard because it's a balance between accuracy and popularity. Using the direct romanizations would be most accurate, using the most well known names would be popular. We use the official Japanese script translations as available on all English home release DVDs. This option is neither perfectly accurate, nor the absolutely most popular - but it's far more accurate than anything more popular, and far more popular than anything more accurate. --DesireCampbell 19:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I heard that Daimao uses Artificial Human in his subtitles. Takuthehedgehog 23:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Really?! That'd make my day. Does anyone have any of the Cell saga DVDs? Or movie 7? *excited* --DesireCampbell 19:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If movie 7 is the one with Androids 13-15, then, yeah, I have it (the DVD of course). What would you like to know Desire? Power level (Dragon Ball) 21:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't tease me! Tell me! Tell me! --DesireCampbell 22:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Clyde Mandelin is the DB translator, I believe. I have the FUNI Ma Jr. dvds, and the subs use Daimao . Relevant example-

Piccolo: What business do you have in the Lower World!?! Kami!

Kami: Have you just now figured it out, Piccolo Daimao?

In "Super Android 13," the subs use Artificial Humans. Hope that helps. And for that bit far above, using Dabra would be like using Boo. If Buu is ok, so is Dabura. Onikage725 12:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

GT: 5 years, or 10?

Okay, before anyone does this again, here's the scoop: In Funimation's English dub they, for some inexplicible reason, decide to say that GT happens ten years after the ending of Z. This line is not present in the original script, and it, like "Bardock is a scientist" is completely erroneous. The GT 'Perfect File' books, which are what the GT portion of this timeline are derived from, state five years, not ten. Stop changing dates. Please? --DesireCampbell </wiki/User:DesireCampbell> 13:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind my previous comment. I thought I was the one at fault, but apparently I changed it to the correct version after all. x_x Daishokaioshin </wiki/User:Daishokaioshin> 23:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC) Haha! You changed the dates back correctly, others have been changing them. I doubt they mean to vandalize, they just don't know the correct information. I hoped that this bit of Talk would deter others. --DesireCampbell </wiki/User:DesireCampbell> 01:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

About GT, I doubt that the Bebi and Super 17 sagas are 1 year apart, especially with Vegeta being jealous of Goku for being SSJ4, it would not have taken a year for him to react. It more like hints that 1-2 weeks passed between the Bebi and Super 17/Shenron arcs. (FF)

I think the people who change it to 10 years depend on the story. Most people seem to miss that the end of DBZ takes place like 5-10 years after Buu's defeat then GT is beyond that. So if you just leave the story at "Buu was defeated" then they must just be skipping the end of DBZ's timeline and adding it up.Darkwarriorblake 00:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

As listed in the "GT Perfect Files" books and the seventh daizenshuu, the final scene in Dragon Ball (the budokai with Pan) takes place ten years after the defeat of Boo. GT begins 5 years after that. --DesireCampbell 00:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with DesireCambell. Not only is the source (perfect files) an official authority, it's all we have. But I disagree about what the site says dividing the: Bebi saga and Super 17 saga by 1 year (it's hinted that it happened 1 week or month after). Also we could be a little more detailed about the article- The Super 17 Saga happens on May 7th since it's on the same day as the Tenkaichi Budokai .......and the last scene in GT happens 100 years later again, on May 7th. --FoxFang

Good Article

Ok people as you know one of our Project's priorities is to raise Goku's page to Good Article classification, now the best way to reach this goal is to have as much people as we can working in the article at the same time under the same goal; although the article is a lot better now than what it was it still requires some work, so what I propose is to set a date to work on the page and raise it to GA in as fast as possible (without affecting the quality of the article or doing it in a rush) so we can proceed to work on the other Dragon Ball pages that need work, how many of you are willing to help me raise this page to Good Article and when do you think it's the best date to work on it (I personally think monday might be good since it's one of those holidays that are somewhat boring since everything is closed), thank you all for your time. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I haven't actually seen anyone but me and maybe 1 other doing any actual work on it. I've trimmed down the summary immensely, I don't think you could get it shorter without missing some important plot points. I neutered his techniques which were essentially histories of the attacks and nothing to do with Goku and I cleaned up a bunch of game lists. I can't be bothered working through his transformations though. Darkwarriorblake 00:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been trying to cut down the plot recap, and got about half-way before my computer, uh, broke. Now that my machine's up and running again, I can continue my efforts. How does it look so far? User:DesireCampbell/Son Goku (Dragon Ball)

--DesireCampbell 00:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Looking good, I have been waiting for you to add it so I can add the part about his name's origin and with the plot taking less space we can add some other important and interesting stuff, we must remember the article's size (see GA Superman for example it is a big mass of letters that is somewhat interesting to read) is not the only factor needed to raise it to good article, the article must appeal the reader's interest. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to request some help for the GT portion, if I could. I've seen the series only sporadically, and quite some time ago. --DesireCampbell 00:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Apart from the dragon saga I don't think you're getting it any shorter. The Dragon Saga can be shortened though.Darkwarriorblake 00:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think that part must be completely rewrited, just read how it sounds now it needs to be writen in an enciclopedic tone. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The article won't reach GA unless it has good references, and so far it has none--SUIT^-n-tie 23:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I believe that we must make the changes first since if we add them now and then we add Desire's rewritten version it would be kind of pointless. -Dark Dragon Flame 23:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we should remove the 'In Popular Culture' section. There's only one tidbit of information in there. And I agree with SUIT. It needs references =P

Maybe not remove it just integrate it to the article and move the image to a place where it looks better. -Dark Dragon Flame 06:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Can I go ahead and redirect the last movie characters?

Doing this here should be a little quicker. Anyone care if I go ahead and merge the last three one movie characters(Bojack, Tullece, Janemba) with their respective lists? I'm sure you know my argument by now. Nemu 12:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

How 'bout a big fat NO!!! Dude, you seriously have issues with characters who appear less frequently in the series. I've said it before and shall say it again, "As long as there is sufficient information to write about the character, they deserve a main page. Quit being greedy and selfish about how "you" want the articles to be. If you redirect without consensus, you'll be reverted and warned. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

If we said it to him that straight he will nominate them for deletion, but seriously no need for that. -Dark Dragon Flame 17:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

PL, please just be quiet. You're the one the got me to start up again by posting three weeks after I had gotten fed up with trying just to try to trump me. Really, after you tried to keep the New Vegeta eternal stub, I've pretty much ignored any sort of opinion you've had. Nemu 23:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Silence Nemu! You seriously have issues with articles you find to be "worthless" for no apparent reason! I don't even know what the hell you're talkin' about now. "Vegeta eternal stub trying to keep"? HUH?!! What are you sayin', eh?! See, this is why I don't understand Wikipedians like you and that Recoome! Both of you are bias, and I don't mean that as a personal attack. Seriously, you guys have got to straighten out and be more like everyone else on the encyclopedia. My point is, just take what others have to heart you guys. Especially for you Nemu. Quit redirecting every main article just because you think they're not worth having a main article. Talk to others before acting as such! As for you Recoome, quit creating sockpuppets! You are only supposed to have one account to edit on Wikipedia. Also, don't subvert to 3rr using confirmed socks either Recoome. It's just ridiculous that you just had to edit war on the Action figure article doing such actions! Mend your ways, the both of you! Power level (Dragon Ball) 23:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you really have that little of a grasp of English? The article New Vegeta was a stub that would never grow. You tried to keep it because you cannot let a page go. You don't understand that this site is an encyclopedia, not an in depth guide (goto the Dragon Ball Wikia for that). I have no bias. I'm looking at this from a broad perspective. I see DB and it's characters. These minor character mean nothing in Dragon Ball, even less in the rest of the world. You, on the other hand, are incredibly biased. Everything Dragon Ball deserves to stay in your eyes. You would probably want to keep an article on Goku's boots if it was made. When the hell did Recoome come into this conversation? Nemu 00:24, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Also,is "Vegeta eternal stub trying to keep" what you actually read or were you just trying to act confused? If it's the first, you may want to check if you have Dyslexia or something. Nemu 00:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

And you say I'm a dyslexic retard?! Nemu, do not redirect those pages again without advising the community. I actually agree with Desire on this one, they have enough content to warrant a page - but not by much. It doesn't mean that you can idioticly redirect them! At least fix 'em up a bit, like I did, but don't just redirect them like that as it causes problems. Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Dyslexic does not mean retarded. Dyslexia is when people have trouble reading due to various mixings of words and letters. By your mixing of the words, it seemed like a possiblity to that and your constant questioning of people. The discussion is over. Nobody besides you objected. Please stop wikilawyering. You probably mentioned nothing of this to whomever you contected. Nemu 23:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you check yourself out Nemu for Dyslexia or somethin' because you seem to have it! Me, Dark Dragon Flame, and DesireCampbell see that the three articles are "okay" so far, just fix 'em up a bit rather than retardly blank 'em by redirecting to whatever. Again, you check yourself out, not me!!! Power level (Dragon Ball) 01:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm.... looking over all of them, they seem to be big enough to warrant themselves their own page - but not by much. Articles should be created when they can't easily be contained in another article. Characters should be included on lists wherever possible, only breaking off to full articles when they become too large for the list. --DesireCampbell 20:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

They have info, but it's all just right from the movies. It's fine on the larger character pages because, besides Goku, they aren't around for every single second of the series. The movie characters are pretty much cookie cutter characters around for a short period of time. There is nothing to explain besides what's already on the movie's article. Nemu 23:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

A character needs an entry - that much is clear. The only choice here is whether to give him his own article, or leave him in a list. The choice to split a character entry from a list to his own page should be decided based on entry length: if the characters entry is so long that it overshadows the other characters on the list, then he should probably get his own page.

Again, I should mention that I'd much rather a single character list instead of the *looks* twelve we have now. And I think every character entry should be significantly longer than it is now. But that's a whole other thing.

As it stands now, those character articles are too big to be added to the lists. If someone wants to cull the articles of useless info to the point where it's small enough to fit in the lists, then do so - and I'll give them my full support. --DesireCampbell 02:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure all three of those could easily be redirected at any time. The only real info on the pages are the plot summaries, which are really unimportant. The entries probably would be fine with a little rearranging. Nemu 02:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

When a character article includes the line "Suddenly, 19 receives a kick in the head and is sent flying aside" you have to admit something's wrong. I love Dragon Ball, and would love to work on the articles, but this WikiProject is scary. I tell you, the thought of having the full weight of WP:DBZ fall upon me for recommending the merger of Bardock's article into a List of characters scares the hell out of me.

The article on Raditz is just one of the problems. Goku's article says he's a Saiyan right of the bat, when everyone knows Toriyama was making it up as he went along and Goku "wasn't an alien" until DBZ. There's an article on the Z Fighters, which is nothing more than another in a long line of lists. There's an article on Bra? Goku's Power Pole has a longer on the show history than Bra! Come on people, what of your ultimate goals?--Nohansen 04:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The Project is still in its infancy: long term goals haven't been discussed at length yet. Generally, the main goal is to clean out dub information, put in more relivant information, and cut down the total number of articles.

One specific goal is to delete, or merge, a lot of character pages. There are far too many character pages (including Bra's) that have little or no information on them. These character pages should be deleted and merged into a list. Further, the twelve character lists we have now should be consolidated into a single one. --DesireCampbell 10:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so whenever PL stops his WikiLawyering, I'll get to weeding out the unimportant characters(filler, one episode, generally not note worthy) from the list. Once we have them down to a resonable size, we should merge some of them. Nemu 11:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, now... PL's just doing what he thinks is best - just as we are. The whole point of a collaborative effort like Wikipedia is to encourage differing opinions about what should, and shouldn't be included.

I'll try to get a little list made up as an example of what I'm thinking of. --DesireCampbell 16:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)\

With any other person, I'd agree, but PL's opinion is keep everything no matter what. That sort of makes it hard to respect it. At this point, with the rest of the movie characters merged, I can only assume that's he's just trying to hold this up for some reason. I had already assumed at this point that nobody cared besides him due to people editing this project and the related articles without commenting. Nemu 19:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I myself am coming on this issue kind of late but from what I can tell Nemu wants to merge those three movie characters with their respected lists as well some characters like Bra as Nohansen mentioned and Pl dosen't.

Well I looked over them and I am sorry PL but Nemu is right their summaries and bios are just so short to have their own article. Most of their bios is movie summaries something people can go to the movie article and read about if we fix them if they do not mention it already. So putting them in there repected list does seem right or just make a new list of movie characters.

The only movie characters I see that need their own article which they have is Broly, Coola, and Garlic Jr since they have a series of movies or appeared in a movie and the series.

Both of you Nemu and PL just need to calm down and think it through first. I agree with Nemu but it wouldn't really hurt too keep them as such but then again other movie character may need their own articles too if we keep it as such like Tapion how has a long history in such a short movie. However it has to be a majority thing to agree on.

So Nemu please after we on the project agree on such leave then articles be. I agree with you but as I said we ALL need to come to an agreement not just a agruement between you and PL. Just wait and see what others think.

Heat P 16:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you and Nemu here on why to remove the articles. I think a character (or anything, really) should be split into its own page when the length becomes too great. I don't care if the character is important, or interesting, or on screen for two minutes - got too much info? New page!

And one character list - not twelve (seriously, twelve?!) --DesireCampbell 17:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that length should be a determining factor when deciding whether or not a character needs its own article, the question is whether or not the information that makes up that length is noteworthy. Pu'ar, for example, has a fairly lengthy article, yet transitions from a third-rate character to near background status soon after his introduction. Likewise, Marron has a long article, though most of her article amounts to when she appeared and what other characters were doing at the time. I could list some other characters that are in the same boat, but I think you get the idea. ~SnapperTo 18:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's pretty much: Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, especially point seven for these articles I'm trying to merge. Nemu 19:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Nemu since it seems you like to do work that requires a lot of writting why don't you go ahead and start merging the character lists, that surely is more needed than disscusing if some characters deserve redirects or not. -Dark Dragon Flame 19:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Man its like a gestapo in here. Look, there are articles on this site for albums that just feature a track listing. If a character is remotely noteworthy they deserve an article. Bardock, Broly. Maron, no unless there is sufficient data in which case putting her on a crammed list would be non sensical. Darkwarriorblake 22:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thoae albums can actually be made into real articles. They're placeholders until that happens. These articles, though, can be filled with nothing, but a plot summary. Read - Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information Nemu 22:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, does anyone have any valid objections to redirecting these pages? WP:ILIKEIT and "they have info" are not valid reasons. I really shouldn't have to do this just because DB86 needs to keeps his precious pages, but I guess I do. Nemu 00:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

You know how I feel about it. If these character's bios is just a movie summary then I say merge then. So I agree with you. But wait and see if you get the majority of your votes first. Don't need to start a needless agruement. Heat P 13:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Plot recaps are not good enough. If that's all you have for a character, he doesn't get his own page. Name puns, character design notes, speech pattern information, techniques and transformations, character personality sketches: these are all great sections that every character can have, and can become quite long. Plot recaps stay short. --DesireCampbell 18:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Is that just a general comment or are you addressing someone? Does anyone mind if I redirect them later today if there are no valid complaints? Nemu 21:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Deleting Category:Dragon Ball Supporting Characters

Hello.

I have depopulated and tagged the above category for deletion. My reasoning is that all characters in it were already in Category:Dragon Ball characters and it can't be precisely defined what a "supporting character" is in this series. Beowulph 13:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, almost every character in that list has it's own important role in the series. -Dark Dragon Flame 17:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I placed my vote for its deletion already. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Black star Dragon Balls

I was looking over the Dragon Balls article and I see we left out or overlooked something about the Black Star Balls. That they don't revert to stone when they are used. If they were they would not show on Trunks's Dragon Radar or when Giru turned himself into the Dragon Radar. And remember the Dragon Balls including the Namekian Balls turn to stone until the year has gone by or when the balls can be used again like Namekians is half a year if all the wishes are used and when only one of the Earth's Balls (Dende's DBs) wishes are used half a year too. So it seems the BSDBs can be used over and over if collected in time before the planet they were created on is not destroyed yet. Also that they need to remain on that planet without another wish being used when the year comes to an end or the time of the BSDBs will not reset and that planet will still be destroyed. Is that something we need to mention in the article?

Heat P 13:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If it's not on there already feel free to add it, sounds like a big thing to leave out. Good job catching it. --DesireCampbell 19:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, just doing my job? Heat P 12:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I went and edit the Dragon Ball (artifact) article, the Black Star Dragon Balls summary with the info I just gave you up top. Can someone go over it and see if I left anything out or fix that summary if they find anything wrong? Thank you. Heat P 14:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Article rearranging

Raditz has been nominated for deletion due to little information in the article, and Nappa's article is even shorter than Raditz's. Should Nappa be deleted as well? Takuthehedgehog 03:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe just merge and redirect it to the list?--SUIT^-n-tie 03:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd have to agree with SUIT on this one. // DecaimientoPoético 03:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

While we're at it, I'll suggest Dodoria and Android 19. They're both pretty small. Nemu 03:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I third it here. -Dark Dragon Flame 03:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Mabey we should make a list of articles that should be deleted? (I know, we've got too many lists on this page as it is, but I still think we should. Trunks' time machine sure doesn't need it's own article, and a lot of other things don't like Zarbon and Bra EDIT: Just found out Bra doesn't have an article anymore.) Takuthehedgehog 03:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think Uranai Baba and Android 16 are worth a look, too. If you trim Baba's abilities and the plot summaries in Android 16 there's almost nothing left. Also, I'd suggest merging Super 17 into Android 17. It's basically the same character, just the former is the evolution of the latter. On the same note as Raditz, I think Bardock should be merged into a list. There's nothing there and him being Goku's father is not reason enough to keep the article around.--Nohansen 03:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I not exactly sure about Zarbon, but the rest (especially Hope (Dragon Ball)) need to go. // DecaimientoPoético 03:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC) After just looking through Zarbon's page, I'd say he should be merged with the rest of them. // DecaimientoPoético 03:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that's it's insane that 'Hope' has its own article - but Capsule Corp is a redirect. Frankly, any article that's even suggested to be merged or deleted almost certainly has my support. If it appears like having its own article is unnecessary, get rid of it. --DesireCampbell 04:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I made a list. I think any page that remains in the top section for a few days should be merged. Sound good? Nemu 03:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Zarbon looks like it has only a little more information then Dodoria to me. Also, I think Chaozu should be merged into a list. It's just a plot summary and abbility list. Takuthehedgehog 03:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Would a complete list of all current character articles be useful to show? It would allow people to see what there is to work with. ~SnapperTo 03:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we redirect/merge all of the really non-important Dragon Ball characters? How about this then: I'll agree to everything if ya leave the most important ones like Son Goku, Kuririn, Master Roshi, Piccolo (and his father), Freeza, etc., because they actually did things that changed the course of the Dragon Ball history forever. The other characters didn't really do something big like these guys did. Get what I'm saying? Power level (Dragon Ball) 06:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Just because a character does something important doesn't mean they deserve their own article. Raditz tells Goku that he's a saiyan, but there's not enough information on Raditz to justify his own article. The Piccolo Daimaō article is pretty short on it's own. Mabey we could merge it with Piccolo? Takuthehedgehog 15:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::If we're thinking about merging Daimaō, what about Kami? Beowulph 17:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to add an "articles to be kept" section to help give us some perspective. Beowulph 18:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

We could merge Kami into Piccolo also, I think that would be fine. Since they are all originally one being, we could mention that in the opening of the article. Takuthehedgehog 18:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Merging three technically different character into one character article would be fairly confusing. Sections on the list would be fine, and easier to navigate. Nemu 18:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess so. So Kami and Daimao go on the list of Namekians and Piccolo keeps his article, Sounds good to me. Takuthehedgehog 18:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. could be merged, if you remove most of the cruft in both articles. They're basically the same character, anyway. Now Kami is a different character altogether, it sould stay as is. --Nohansen 18:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

These lists look solid to me. Nice work, Nemu (and Beowulph). JamesMcCloud129 18:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo merger sounds good too. Piccolo is pretty much just Daimao reincarnated. Takuthehedgehog 18:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

We're still going to have a section on the list for Piccolo Daimao, so I do think it would be better to leave him there, and just let the Piccolo talk about them like it already does. I would say the same for Super 17 Nemu 18:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but Daimao would work good in Piccolo's article since they're basically the same character, and it would help expand upon Piccolo's article. Same goes for Super 17, although Android 17 needs to be longer more than Piccolo does. Takuthehedgehog 19:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, how exactly are they going to be merged? The problem I'm seeing with merging is that we'll be talking about Daimao, then say he's gone and Piccolo now exists, but they aren't the same. It just seems like it could get sort of messy. It's not really as clear cut as Buu or anything. Nemu 19:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The are articles on comicbook characters with the same name, say Speedy. The lead section on a merged Piccolo article could read something like "Piccolo is the name of two fictional characters in the Dragonball Universe. The first, Piccolo Daimao is the evil counterpart of Kami, the God of Earth." and from there it goes into Piccolo's bio. "Piccolo Jr. is the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, born after the Evil King's death at the hands of Goku." and so forth. It's not that difficult.--Nohansen 19:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, what about the different "Supermen"? Kal-El, Kal-L? (and I'm sure I've forgotten others). Further: Piccolo, Piccolo Daimao, and Kami are separate characters.

Think about it this way: would you list them as one entry in the list? If they're separate entries in the character list, then they remain separate. --DesireCampbell 19:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Daimao and Ma Jr. are NOT the same character. Ma Jr. was born with a unique soul. He inherited his "father's" memories, but he is a different character. You'll note that we have distinguishing articles for Future Trunks and the one from the main timeline. And while we're at it, there are a number of articles on the list to delete that I think ought to be discussed. I mean, I understand that idnividual attacks and Trunks' time machine don't need articles, but Kami, North Kaio, Trunks...these are major characters, no? Onikage725 22:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

But some of these characters don't have enough to write about to need their own article. The information about them would go on a list of characters. Takuthehedgehog 00:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yea but Daimao was like the DB equivolent of Freeza, and noone wants to drop his article just because he only had the one saga. And Daimao left a pretty big legacy too. He also shouldn't be relegated to a list of Namekians, nor should Kami. IF they get merged to a list, there needs to be a demon list made and Daimao would go there (and Kami to the list of deities). Neither of them is a true Namekian after the split. Kami is God of the Earth and pure good, while Daimao is pure evil. No Namekian is shown to give birth to demon-spawn as Daimao can, and his victims are said to be unable to pass into the afterlife (a trait attributed to demons). Ma Junior does not posess this taint, as Kami notes when Raditz is said to have passed Enma Daio for judgement, as he was "born" a full Namekian. And Trunks? He really shouldn't be on the same article as Future because they are two different people. They are genetically identical but have two entirely different histories and personalities. I feel that merging the two would just make for clutter. And his article shouldn't be relegated to a list because he is a main character in the Buu Saga (the second longest Z arc if I'm not mistaken), as well as being one of the main characters in GT. That's just my 2 cents on it anyway. And even lil' Chaozu, he's one of the Z Senshi and in a good portion of the series, even if he is the least of the team. He can't be less important than Naruto's Choji Akimichi, yet the folks over there have managed to keep a nice article on him. Onikage725 02:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The Dragonball characters lists are pretty problematic. Take Kami-sama: All through DB he is a deity, make that The Deity of the Dragonball Universe... but in DBZ he is revealed to be an alien, a Namekusei-jin at that. So where does he belong? I'm of the mind that, if he must be on a list, make it the deities one, that's what he was until DBZ retconned his origin.

About the articles with no determined merge location...

• If Android (Dragon Ball) is merged with the List of Androids in Dragon Ball it could turn out a pretty decent article.
• Merge Ki (Dragon Ball), Power level (Dragon Ball) and Scouter (Dragon Ball)
• Room of Spirit and Time into Kami's Lookout
• Kami's Lookout into a Locations in the Dragonball universe or something of the sort. Same with Karin Tower, Serpent Road, Hell (Dragon Ball), etc.
• Kintoun into Goku
• Merge Majin (Dragon Ball) with what used to be List of Majins in Dragon Ball and place Dabura in there
• Again, merging Piccolo Daimaō and Piccolo (Dragon Ball) can work.

By the way, Karin is a deity who looks like a cat. Where does he belong?--Nohansen 03:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Is he a deity of some kind? What exactly constitutes a "deity" in Dragon Ball?

Regardless, I think the place for him is the same place for everyone else: the character list. One list, not twelve. --DesireCampbell 03:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem with there being one big character list is that there are far too many characters. Every henchmen, every one episode villain, every character that seems to have been given a name has an entry somewhere. Of course, even if you get rid of all of those characters, you still have a far too many characters to put on one list. Having a couple, very broad content-based, lists is the only way to avoid a surplus of characters without having 10 character lists. ~SnapperTo 03:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

We definetily need to trim down the ammount of lists to less than five; just take a look at them we got list to list characters related to a alien (Frieza) instead of having them in the list of aliens, seriously we can cut it to at least three lists. -Dark Dragon Flame 03:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone given thought to dividing the characters by story arc instead of race?--Nohansen 03:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't that at least double the ammount of list we already have? -Dark Dragon Flame 03:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't that just call for more articles?
As for splitting up the groups, Saiyans, Namekians, and Freeza's crew are all aliens, so they could just be put with the other aliens. Humans, animals, androids, and "monsters" are all from Earth, so they could be put in something like List of Earthlings in Dragon Ball. Then Dragons and deities could be crammed together somehow. Doing something like this would leave just three incredibly long lists of characters. ~SnapperTo 04:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

There's an article for every saga in Dragonball. Take the Freeza arc, for example: delete the race lists, add a "Characters introduced in this arc" section and now the characters are in chronological order, the saga articles are a little bit better and problem of "on what list does this character belong to" is resolved.--Nohansen 04:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue here is that we want to reduce he ammount of lists as we change it not just change it, there are a lot of unneeded lists right now, I seriously like Snapper2's aproach to fuse dragons and deities since that would cut the ammount of unrequired lists. -Dark Dragon Flame 04:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of cutting up lists based on saga - it just seems odd. No other Wikipedia fiction character list is structured that way. Plus, it seems like we'd be repeating what the saga articles are saying.

That said, the lists we have now are pretty badly divided up too. Like, there's a list for Saiyans, and a list for those in Freeza's employ - Vegeta, Nappa, Bardock, and Raditz were all Freeza thugs as well as Saiyans. Should Dende and Kami be on the Namekkian list or the Deity list? As the lists are now, we're dividing up characters based on race and employment. Many characters can be placed on two or more lists.

If we simply divided up the lists by race, this would also lead to characters on multiple lists. Where would we list Trunks, Bra, Gohan, and Goten? In the human list or the Saiyan list? This option coule work, but it would involve putting characters on one list, and adding "see List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball#Son Goten" on the other list.

So, dividing the list up by race leads to problems, dividing up the list by saga seems redundant and odd, keeping the lists divided like we have now (by more than one category) is stupid and must be changed. I think dividing up the characters by race is the best option - but I'd also like to consolidate all characters to one list. Long, yes - but easier to find everyone. --DesireCampbell 11:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I actually like the race idea. For the question above about characters on two lists, we could just handle those characters by citizenship. The half-Saiyans would be on an Earthling list. Bah, have to go, I have some ideas tho so I'll list them later Onikage725 12:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I actually think one character list is the way to go, but it would be sooo long I don't think anyone who comes to wikipedia would even bother to use it. Maybe dividing in 3 lists by alphabetical order?

• Dragonball characters: A-F
• Dragonball characters: G-R
• Dragonball characters: S-Z

Even then it'd be hard to navigate and find what we're looking for.

Let me push the Characters by story arc idea one more time. Okay, we have the Saiyan Saga (Eps 1-35) Instead of a detailed summary and a blow-by-blow on the fights, have a general summary: What's the arc about? What new concepts introduces? What are some of the plot twists?

Then, the list of characters, with a bio and an image of how he looks like in that arc:

• Son Gohan - Goku and Chichi's son, saiyan/human, trained by Piccolo
• Raditz - Saiyan, Goku's brother, etc, etc.
• Kaoi-sama - teaches Goku the Kaio-ken, blah, blah, blah.

Of course someone like Gohan deserves his own article, so when he appears again in the Freeza Saga add him to the list, have a 5-line summary of what he does in the arc and link to his article.

--Nohansen 14:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with the dividing up characters by Saga since most of the minor characters only appear once and then vanish. We could probably even merge it into the saga articles themselves as one of the main sections. One of the other benefits would be a pretty healthy trim of the character article itself since all of the characters actions would be detailed in the main saga portion. Beowulph 14:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to have to again disagree with dividing character lists by saga. The point of the lists are to make it easy to find a character without too many different pages. That's why I'm pushing for one list. Long? Maybe. East to find everyone? Definitely.

Dividing the character lists by saga would lead to more articles than we have now. There's thirteen sagas as defined by Toei. We have twelve already.

Dividing lists at all, I think, is unnecessary. I think a single list would be sufficient, and while long, wouldn't be longer than other (ie1, ie2 character lists.

For now, we should focus on cutting down needlessly long character pages, and merging them into the current lists. Then we can easily consolidate all the lists into one. Then, if as a group we agree that that one list is too long, then we can divide it up. --DesireCampbell 23:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I like that idea of some of the names on the list to be merge but some I feel should still have their own articles.

• listed below

and most of the undetermined list. These characters or sectios had a major impact on the series or had a very important role in the series and have enough info to have there own article. The ones on the undetermined list that can be merged without much disagreement is,

• Tsufurujin
• Red Ribbon Army
• Uub (Dragon Ball)

Thats is my recommendation. What you guys think?

Heat P 14:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If we go the route of adding a "characters" section to each saga/movie article, I'd like to see how many character articles we'd actually need afterwards. For example, if we detail what Mirai Trunks did in the Trunks Saga, Androids Saga, Imperfect Cell Saga, Perfect Cell Saga, Cell Games Saga, each of the movies he was in, and place other relevant details on his "list" page (name pun, origin, summary etc.), what would be the need for his article? I'm thinking this could apply to most characters in the series. Beowulph 14:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Heh, sneaking on during break, here's a quick thought- what do some other articles do? Do some of the other series' have a good model we could use? Is there a "norm" at the moment for anime articles (or a guideline at the anime wikiproject in general)? I'll dig around when I can, but just food for thought. Onikage725 17:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Woah, Woah, Woah, Goten and Vegetto should not be merged. Any main character should have their own page. Vegetto is an important and popular character despite his briefness. He deserves more than a few paragraphs on the list of saiyans page. Darkwarriorblake 22:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

But if you remove the plot summary from Vegetto and trim the wordy description of its attacks, you'd be left with just enough info for a list entry.

I honestly don't understand how Vegetto has its own page. Vegetto is an fusion, an "attack", not a character. A brief one, at that. I think it should be merged to Vegeta.--Nohansen 22:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree completely. Vegetto is a character, not simply the result of a technique. Saying Vegetto is simply one of Goku's attacks is the same as saying Gohan is one of his attacks. Both are characters with distinct personalities that show up after two other characters, uh, "perform a technique" *wink*wink*nudge*nudge*

Vegetto is a character, and as such deserves his own entry. Whether or not he gets his own article is a question of length. --DesireCampbell 01:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

If fusions are characters, how come Kibitoshin doesn't have his own article nor entry on a list? I'm just asking.--Nohansen 04:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

He has one at List of deities in Dragon Ball. -Dark Dragon Flame 04:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

That he does. Damn, these lists are a mess. I fixed the redirect on Kibitoshin.--Nohansen 04:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I merged humans, animals, and monsters into Earthlings. Should Freeza related characters → aliens? Wasn't there something about merging Dragons and Deities? After we get these articles all merged, we should try to raise the quality be a lot. Nemu 05:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Nemu. For once, I'd like to say "good job!" I did a few fixes myself. Do ya like it? Power level (Dragon Ball) 05:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

If that's the direction that's going to be taken, then I had suggested merging deities and dragons together (maybe List of higher powers in Dragon Ball?) And if it helps, I had also suggested splitting androids amongst the alien and earthling articles, as well as merging saiyans and namekians into aliens as well. ~SnapperTo 06:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, dragons and deities are merged. The dragons could technically be deities, so I think that seems fine. I'll get on the others in a minute. Nemu 06:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, if anyone is bored, there are a ton of redirects that need changing. Nemu 06:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I"m confused. There are characters in List of aliens in Dragon Ball that I don't think are aliens but demons. Let me name them: Janemba, Majin Buu and Dabura. Let me name the reasons why I don't think they're aliens:

1. Janemba - he was originally an oni from Hell gone bad.
2. Majin Buu - was "created" by a wizard/sorceror named Bibidi. I think he was called a demon or monster in the series, but I'm not too sure about that.
3. Dabura - From what I remember, he was lord of the underworld or somethin'. It would explain how East Kaioshin knew him since both characters dwell in the Other world. Should there be a new list titled List of demons in Dragon Ball or should they be merged with List of monsters in Dragon Ball? Garlic Jr. should be added to such a list and not have a main article since I believe he is still a minor character in the story because he didn't do anything "big" that changed the course of the Dragon Ball series. Also, he is more likely a demon/monster than an alien, although he did draw his power from another planet if I remember correctly. Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

They all are demons, so is Princess Snake. -Dark Dragon Flame 19:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

So, should they be merged elsewhere? They really aren't aliens from what I can recall. Power level (Dragon Ball) 21:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's see, they being demons makes them different than your garden variety monster, how about adding them to List of deities in Dragon Ball and rename that to List of supernatural beings in Dragon Ball, how about it? -Dark Dragon Flame 06:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd support something like that. And Garlic Jr's race refer to themselves as demons, and that "planet" is the Devil Star (Makyo). There are a number of others on the alien list as well. Hirudegarn was created in much the same way as Majin Buu, a magically created monster of pure evil. Piccolo Daimao and his minions are another example. Daimao is not a true Namekian, but is rather negative ki given Namekian form. He is dubbed the Great Demon King, his victims cannot find rest, his spawn (aside from Ma Jr) are demonic, and he is susceptible to the Demon Sealing Wave/Mafuba (note the only two times this was used on a non-demon were against Kami; the first time was due to the "Reverse mafuba" technique and the second was in the filler Garlic Jr. arc). I'd have to dig up movie 9 to double check, but I always thought Bojack and co. were demonic in nature. They have power ups similar to Garlic and his posse, and they were sealed away by the Kaio (who I don't think normally interfere with mortal affairs, given the no-intereference policy displayed towards the Cold empire). Now Bibidi and his brat, does anyone know off the top of their head if anything beyond "pissed off wizards with Napolean complexes?" I only ask because the general seperation of the realms and them being in opposition to the Kaioshin makes me think of a more supernatural nature. Obviously if that isn't actually said anywhere then they are best left where they are. Onikage725 14:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, does anyone else think that the various biographies on the character pages could be done away with? It seems to me that plot summaries on Saga pages or episode summaries with an ep list would serve the same purpose. For example, the Raditz incident is covered on Goku's page, in more detail on Piccolo's page, and on the Vegeta Saga page. Why not just have one place for plot summaries, and have brief bios, creation notes, name meanings/puns, special attacks, other media, etc for the character pages? That could also serve as a good test for who should be merged. If the in-depth play by plays are nixed, and those other sections don't have any relevant info, then they should be on a list. Onikage725 14:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Bibidi being a decent adversary for the supreme deities in the DB universe lends me to believe he has to be some sort of "devil" figure here wich would make him definetily supernatural in origin; if we are to keep the plot summaries we can only focus them on the caracter the page is about for example we don't want an entry on Goku's page that says and then Piccolo scratched his nose and did a backflip cause we don't really need that, there's a reason for saga pages after all.-Dark Dragon Flame 21:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, where was it discussed that Earth (Dragon Ball) and Kamehameha (Dragon Ball) would be redirected? I thought the articles were alright, weren't they? Power level (Dragon Ball) 04:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Well apparently a few people decided that 75% of the articles here sucked and should be reduced to list entries. Noone asked me, personally. Yet, going through them, I find myself hard-pressed to disagree. For example, the Kamehameha (and Kaioken, and Genki Dama) all have adequate, detailed entries on the technique list. That kind of goes to what I was saying about the plot summaries. There's no need to say the same thing twice. Onikage725 12:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh someone asked above about Karin. He'd go on a deity list, at least in the role of servant. Kibito and Popo show up in those places, right? Also I'm pretty sure they refer to him as sama, he's the first stop on the way to the Shinden/Lookout, he grows the Senzu, etc. Also, at least in the anime, if someone who didn't know him acted like he was just some talking cat, those in the know freaked. Onikage725 12:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Guy I was looking at the Template and someone add more villians to the list, Zarbon, Doboria,Nappa, Ginyu Force and A.17. Does these villians real need to be on the list, or are we going to keep them on until we figure out what to do with the merging of articles?

Heat P 15:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I think when we're done we should link to all the characters with their own articles, and then link to the list with all the other characters on it, but that's just me. Takuthehedgehog 18:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Takuthehedgehog, I reverted your redirect to the Earth (Dragon Ball) article for the moment. I looked over the Kamehameha, Kaio ken and Genki Dama articles and saw that they were pretty much needed to be merged as they were plot summaires. However, since the Earth (Dragon Ball) article looked more informal than a plot summary would, I saw no reason as to why it should be redirected. Any thoughts people? Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It was on the list of articles to be merged and didn't look like much other than a list of important locations to me. It would work good on the proposed "List of locations in Dragon Ball", but it didn't look like enough for it's own article to me. The information is all in the history so it would only take a copy and paste to get it all back. Takuthehedgehog 20:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I put it on the disputed list. I, too dispute that merge. It is the central location of the majority of the series, and I don't see what is helped by dropping an informative article in favor of like 2 lines on a short list. Onikage725 11:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

What about List of supernatural beings in Dragon Ball is there oposision to rename the List of Deities in Dragon Ball to this after the inclution of the demon characters? -Dark Dragon Flame 22:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for that. Onikage725 11:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I with you. That sounds better. Heat P 18:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I moved the demons in the list of aliens to the list of deities, I need to go so I will rename the page tomorrow that unless one of you does it before ;) see you all then. -Dark Dragon Flame 03:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok just finished moving it and checking the redirects; if someone notices a double redirect please remove it I was sleepy while doing so and one might have slip by me. -Dark Dragon Flame 05:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Like what you done with the List of supernatural beings in Dragon Ball. Just need to be twiked a little but it seems to be good. But on the List of Earthlings in Dragon Ball and List of aliens in Dragon Ball the Artifical Beings (Androids and Mutant Machines) are on these pages. Do you think they should have there own list instead of saying they are Earthlings and Aliens( List of Artifical Beings in Dragon Ball). They are not really naturally born or magical created except for A 17 and A 18 and Dr Gero. And on Dr. Gero, sorry I don't wanna be a pain but I still think he deserves his own page as a major or rather an important villain. Lets say he deserve his own page a little more than so that have their own like Zarbon and Dodoria.

Heat P 14:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Cool. I moved Garlic and Daimao in there too. Wondering still if Bojack should go I can't find my DVD, can anyone help with this?) and Lord Slug's group. I know Slug himself wasn't demonic, but if I recall correctly his minions were. Here's a question though...what to do with Piccolo the younger? Born a "true" Namek, he still is the son of a demonic being, has all his memories, calls himself son of the demon or great demon king at times, was resistant to the demonic bite of Garlic Jr's minions, and later merges with Kami (who is on our deity list). And that doesn't even consider that he was born on Earth and grew up their, and would "legally" thus be an earthling. Onikage725 16:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Piccolo Sr. and Jr. were both actually Nameks, as of course was Kami. They had forgotten who they were and assumed they were supernatural, but nothing that they did were outside the range of other Nameks, if you include Slug on that list. Whether Piano and the rest of the musically named "demons" were mutant Nameks or not was never explained. I think "demon" was in this case a bit of a honorific. JRP 16:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing though- Daimao and Kami aren't run of the mill Nameks. Kami has "ascended" one could say. He is pure good. Daimao is literally his evil karma taken form. His ability to spawn monsters isn't demonstrated by any other Namek (though one could argue that they simply never had a need to). His weakness to the Mafuba is another indication. It is described as a technique for sealing demons. As I noted earlier, the only two times it is used on a non-demon is a case of reflection and then in filler. Also, they do make specific note of his demonic nature in reference to Piccolo Ma Jr. not being the same. Specifically, when Kami hears of Raditz's passing, he mentions that someone slain by a demon (as in, Daimao's victims) cannot find rest. Therefore he takes the fact that Raditz passed on to judgement as a sign that Ma Jr. was different from his "father" and had some hope for him. Also don't forget that Kami has access to Enma-sama (something your average mortal can't do without some form of teleportation), and in Dragonball was capable of possessing a human host (again, an ability no normal Namek has ever shown). As for Slug, I don't think he should be on that list, but his minions should be. Onikage725 21:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a problem with the Piccolo articles in that nowhere it is acknowledged that out-of-universe Kami and Piccolo weren't aliens. It's not until the Saiyan Saga that these aspects are introduced. Until then, Kami and Piccolo were the equivalent of God and Satan... And Goku was the monkey boy from Journey to the West until it is revealed he's actually an alien.--Nohansen 20:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Bojack is a space pirate. So alien. And Vegetto, Gotenks and Gogeta should have their own articles, taku is wrong to just go redirect them. Regardless of their brief nature they are important, popular and most importantly what people will search for. Noone would miss a Pui Pui or Bojack article but Vegetto, Gotenks and Gogeta? Come on.Darkwarriorblake 16:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Can people offer some reasons to keep the disputed articles, so we can decide? Most of the characters were fairly important, but were only around for a pretty short time(Vegetto), or have nothing but trivial things to write about if they were around longer(Videl). The planets can easily be confined to a list or whatever. Kamehameha could probably be condensed onto the list pretty easily. Nemu 18:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Kamehameha (Dragon Ball), Planet Namek, and Vegetto were all "merged", but all were reverted due to no indication of why being given. You could try merging them again and specify why you're doing so, and see how that works out. If it doesn't, a topic on each article's talk page would probably be the best place to discuss it, as this giant discussion is becoming unmanageable. The rest were all disputed by User:Heat P because the "characters or sectios had a major impact on the series or had a very important role in the series and have enough info to have there own article". I'm at least inclined to agree with keeping Power level (Dragon Ball) and Earth (Dragon Ball); the former has had a number of articles merged into it, and I don't know where else it could go, while the latter is more prominent in the series and can have Kami's Lookout, Karin Tower, Room of Spirit and Time, and maybe a few others merged into it. ~SnapperTo 18:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I myself was the one who put the list up but after I looked at it a few names can be merged. Videl, Tao Pai Pai, Yi Xing Long, and Power levels (But what would that be merged with). But others do have a long or very important history that is too much to put in to a merged section of a list. Pilaf is kind of iffie. But the others should be ok to have their own.

Heat P 11:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone explain to me the reasons why Vegetto is being redirected? Thanks! Gooden 21:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Read. The. Discussion. The basis of it was to decide which pages needed to be redirected. All of the ones on the list were to be merged with the target article, then redirected. Vegetto was on that list, thus redirected. That is all. There was no indepth discussion on each character. Nemu 21:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You folks can't just pick up and move something without an immaculate reason! I disagree with that voilation. You cannot do something without reasoning behind it. Until you tell me the reasoning, i'm going to get down to the bottom of this mystery, until i know for sure that Vegetto can be an article again, or the reasons for it's redirection is justified immaculately! Gooden 21:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Just drop it. Vegetto was merged along with many oother articles. Stop disrupting the project and get on with your editing.--SUIT^양복 21:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Why should i let this go? I can't just accept Vegetto not being an article! I'm going to investigate the matter. And you people are being absurd by not informing me the reasons to your actions. I believe that this character should be an article, and you folks just don't give a dam about what i say? So this is a monarchy situation now? I thought we should talk about things? No problem, as i told Nemu, if you don't want to talk about the situation, then i'll take into my own hands! Gooden 22:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Articles

Articles to be kept

The following articles are to be kept though cleaned-up and/or expanded to meet Wikipedia quality guidelines.

• Android 17
• Android 18
• Baby (Dragon Ball)
• Broly
• Bulma
• Coola
• Cell (Dragon Ball)
• Dragon Ball (artifact)
• Earth (Dragon Ball)
• Freeza
• Future Trunks
• Garlic Jr.
• Kuririn
• Majin Buu
• Piccolo (Dragon Ball)
• Son Gohan
• Son Goku (Dragon Ball)
• Super Saiyan
• Tenshinhan
• Vegeta
• Yamcha

Articles to be merged/redirected

The following articles are to be merged into the designated lists.

Undetermined articles

The fate of the following articles has yet to be decided.

• Mr. Satan
• Muten-Rôshi
• Namekian
• Oozaru
• Pan (Dragon Ball)
• Power level (Dragon Ball)
• Saiyan
• Son Goten
• Trunks (Dragon Ball)
• Uub (Dragon Ball)

Disputed articles

The following articles have been proposed to be merged, but one or more people disagree.

Freeza - Good article??

I'm thinking about putting it up for Good Article status. It has references and it's pretty good in my opinion. Any comments before I do so? I'll wait a couple days--SUIT^-n-tie 05:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the way the transformation section looks because of all the images, but I changed it myself by removing all the images and adding one new one showing Freeza's first three forms. Other than that it looks pretty good. I say go for it. Takuthehedgehog 05:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Having looked at it just now I will say it's the best article we have in this project at the moment, specially because it has proper references wich is what's kepping Goku out of GA right now. -Dark Dragon Flame 06:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Did a bit more cleanup myself, changed a couple gramatical things and added/removed links to other wiki pages. Takuthehedgehog 06:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

You should probably go back and find the paragraphs that used to be in the video game section and replace the list. Nemu 11:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

You should also get more OOU citations. I'm not tottaly sure, but it may be too in-universe(compare to some other character GAs). You probably should also cut down the lists into full prose. Nemu 11:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The list is more useful than the paragraphs that were there before. Considering I'm the one who's done the lion's share of the work on the Freeza article too I won't be impressed if that list just ups and disappears for "Freeza was also a playable character in BUdokai 3".Darkwarriorblake 11:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It's useful if people want a list of games he's been in, but not if they want an encyclopedic overview. Nemu 18:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason the list of video games is divided by Dragon Ball series? Some of the games he appears in aren't strictly 'Dragon Ball' games. I'm changing it to just a straight chronological order. --DesireCampbell 18:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we separate Freeza's actions in the manga from those of the anime? Additionally, I don't think we should say that Coola is Freeza's brother and Kuriza is his son without some note that those characters are not in the original manga (similar to what we have on the list of Dragon Ball special abilities). Beowulph 15:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree about making a note about Coola and Kuriza not being in the actual anime or manga but seperating Freeza's action from the anime and manga would kind of difficult because not much was different between the two other than a longer lenghtly fight in the anime, and the add stuff he did when M.Trunks arrived. If we did that then we have to go on every article and do that to all the characters. It is a delicate subject but it can be done just. Can you give us a small example here of what you mean by separating the manga and anime so we can get a idea of what you really mean? We don't wanna go in make changes and mess up the article and turn it into a bad article again.

Heat P 16:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I mean things like details of Freeza's encounters with Burdock and Vegeta's father and his appearances in the anime (in cameo form) after his death; IMO, we should have non-manga section which contains this anime filler as well as his movie appearances. Beowulph 01:09, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

At least Coola exists in the DB universe. Kuriza is from a parody. He has nothing to do with DBZ in that regard, its more a popular culture thing at best.Darkwarriorblake 17:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, that brings up Dr. Slump. How is it that Kuriza (who has never appeared in any series, nor movie or TV special, nor the manga) is included as a Dragon Ball character, but Arale (who defeated General Blue in the manga, and the anime, and appeared in another movie) isn't? --DesireCampbell 22:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

As I mention to you in Onio Issues a second ago Dr. Slump Character have their own Dragon Ball list but I do understand what you mean like why they are not mentioned in other articles. but they should be. Now this issue with Kuriza is the same issues we have with Onio on the Super Saiyan page. Just because he on a Self-Parody about Dragon Ball does not mean he should not be mention. He is still a character created by Akira Toriyama in which Toriyama has made Kuriza Freeza's son. So yes he should remain on Freeza's page but only on the relative list under Freeza's introduction picture, or maybe a note at the bottom of the page mentioning their non canon relationship. Beowulph I say I somewhat agree on mentioning some of the non manga stuff but we need to be very careful if we do input it in but again we have to go though all the main or important characters and do the same if they do not have them on their pages already.

Heat P 06:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Then maybe we should put on Trunks page that the kid in Blue Dragon looks just like him but in a Great Saiyaman outfit. It doesn't matter if he was made by Akira Toriyama, its a parody and nothing to do with continuity at all even if it features DBZ characters it isn't DB, DBZ or DBGT so not it shouldn't be anywhere near a Dragon Ball article, Onio or Kuriza.Darkwarriorblake 07:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Apparently some of you guys are not getting it. We who care want to put these characters on some DB articles because of their true connection to DB despite being a parody or from another manga. No we should not add some character because they look like someone for DB but has no true connect to DB. Did Toriyama create these characters in other mangas and games like Blue Dragon and Dragon Warrior with a real connection to DB other than the way they look? No because many creations of his all have the same or similiar look because of his artistic style. Kuriza is connect because Toriyama made him Freeza's son. Onio is connected because he is a Saiyan, ya a fat one but one none the less. If it can be mentioned that DB character that appear on in that manga appear on the NM article why not add the connect of some of the characters to in NM to DB? Same goes for DR. Slump for their connect to DB. I said before I do not like the idea of Onio being on the Super Saiyan article but for the good of an encyclopedia it must be is some shape or form. Kuriza is already mention in Freeza's article anyway in the relatives list. Onio is off and on on the Super Saiyan and other Saiyan lists articles when some unknown IP user is not erasing his name. So far these articles have become or remained good article despite these informations remaining on these atricles.--Heat P 12:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

If Kuriza appears only in that story which is a parody, I mean parodies are never considered available or relevant,and in the anime and manga Kuriza doesn't exist. ? And then please who wrote this article could kindly tell me if this son should be considered..existent olso in the normal dragonball z story or not?So why he doesn't live with his father? And who is the mother?

We are not trying to say he is part of the Dragon Ball story only their connection to Dragon Ball. As mentioned many times that in the manga Neko Majin Z Akira Toriyama made Kuriza Freeza's son. And as for why he didn't lived with his father and who is his mother? Does every character in any anime that is not show with their parents show any explanation on were their parents are? For example Goku, only his father was shown. Krillin has no explanation on who his parents are when he was younger. Does it explain who Freeza and Coola's mother is? No it doesn't. So that question was a very unnecssary question.

Heat P 13:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Onio issue

Fellow editors a small but large problem is arising again on the Super Saiyan page and that is the issue if the Saiyan Onio from Neko Majin Z should stay on the page or be taken off for good. Already some unknown IP user went and erased it despite the majority rule on it. I would fix it but we need to have a vote on this. So to fix this I will bring it here so we can settle this once and for all.

I myself agree to put him on and keep him on the page. If you want to know my reasons go to the talk:Super Saiyan page and read why. Anyone else agrees or disagree?

Heat P 18:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Onio is a Super Saiyan - but he's not from the same series as, um, every other Super Saiyan. So, perhaps he should be listed, but under a different header than the others, or clearly indicate that he's not from a Dragon Ball series. --DesireCampbell 19:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

That's sort of discriminating; he is a SSJ and all SSJ have the right to be on that list self parody or not. -Dark Dragon Flame 23:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the contention is that the list should be about not simply "Super Saiyans", but "Super Saiyans in Dragon Ball". Adding Onio to the list without specifically pointing out that he's not part of the Dragon Ball series would be misleading.

This brings up Neko Majin Z. How should we handle it? Do we include characters from it? Like Onio and Kuriza? They aren't part of the Dragon Ball series any more than Doctor Slump is. --DesireCampbell 02:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not just add a Notes section at the bottom of the article and put something thats says... Although Onio is not part of the Dragon Ball series he is shown to be capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan in the parody manga, Neko Majin Z.. Then he can be removed form the list of Saiyans that reached SSJ 1 in the article, since there would already be a note at the bottom that states he is capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan without confusing the reader into thinking he is part of Dragon Ball.-- bulletproof ^3:16 03:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan for Onio (the article's about Super Saiyans in general, not just Dragon Ball Super Saiyans). But what about Kuriza? He's connected to Dragon Ball, but he's not actually part of it - and yet he's listed as a DB character.

But then again, he's playable in DBZ 2...

We should either cut him out, or include all of NMZ's characters. Having a character entry for Kuriza and not Onio makes no sense, "all or nothing" as it were. --DesireCampbell 11:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Well Desire from the comment about "Adding Onio to the list without specifically pointing out that he's not part of the Dragon Ball series would be misleading."? Well the thing was it was mentioned on there a few months ago but for some reason it was erased that he was part of the Neko Majin Z manga. But I agree with the concept of putting a note on the botom of the page, mentioning next to his name he is a NMZ character, or create another section on the page on him but unless we turn the article into Super Saiyans (Dragon Ball) or something of that nature he must be included because he is a Toriyama created character. Believe it or not I don't like that his name is on the page but for the good of the encyclopedia he must be at less mentioned for his connection to Saiyans just like Kuriza is.

Now again for the good of the e-pedia NMZ characters should be in some form mentioned too. However we need to mention they are of the NM mangas and not directly in the DB mangas and anime. But let people know that the NM manga is connected to DB, be it a self parody created my Akira Toriyama, a NM character that is the child of a real DBZ character, actual DB characters showing up in the NMZ manga, Being part of a couple of DBZ games as hidden characters, someone in NM being of a same race as a race specificly created for DB, or other mentionable things that truly connect it to DB. We will figure something out.

Heat P 13:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I just don't see how we can rationalize incorporating NMZ into Dragon Ball articles, but not including Dr. Slump. I mean, the only difference is that no NMZ characters ever appeared in Dragon Ball - while Dr. Slump did. Logically, Dr. Slump characters should be included before NMZ characters. --DesireCampbell 22:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I got what you mean. I say we do add Dr. Slump characters too in some way, shape, or form, and before NMZ. They however do have their own Dragon Ball list thought. But just like NM. Dr.S can be included in form or another.

Heat P 06:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok on the note DesireCampbell suggestion on Dr. Slmup characters connected to Dragon Ball. I went and put in List of Dr. Slump characters in Dragon Ball and were there was a list that list has been completely erased and the search has been redirected to List of Dragon Ball characters My questions is who erased the list and redirected the search to the Dragon Ball list with no sign of these characters or a list of characters and why?

Heat P 13:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It looks like TNN is the one redirecting things. We can look at the page history still so we can add the characters when we make the new list of characters. Takuthehedgehog 18:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Dr. Slump characters, why isn't there a List of Dr. Slump characters? If there were, you could a note at the end of each character entry reading This character also appears in the Dragonball episode (Insert name here). (Insert details of the appearance here).--Nohansen 12:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

There is was a List of Dr. Slump characters in Dragon Ball as said before. Not if there were one, there was one. There really was no need to erase it was there? However you are right. If the link goes to List of Dragon Ball characters then we can do that. But if TNN (SUIT) erased it and link it to List of Dragon Ball characters then TNN should have went and put the names for the characters from Dr. Slump on that list in the first place. We can't erase something then link the search to another page and on the page there is nothing on the think you searched for.

Heat P 13:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Onio is a super saiyan. period. self parody or not he is a super saiyan and therefor should be listed. its not like Neko Majin Z was some random fan-fic or something it was written by Akira Toriyama. I really don't see how this is a problem DBZROCKS 13:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem is the article is named List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball. Even if the character was created by Toriyama, he's not from Dragon Ball, he's from Neko Majin. If the Neko Majin article already acknowledges the DB-parody, the Onio entry on the list is unnecesary. Like the List of Dr. Slump characters in Dragon Ball. If the Dr. Slump article acknowledges the crossover, that list is unnecessary.--Nohansen 14:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing, on the List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball in the talk page no one really is making a big fuse about it. He does not need to be on that page because it said List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball but he is on the article Saiyan with he is completely at right to be on because it does not say Saiyans in Dragon Ball but there he is not being argued about there but we have a big problem with some Users on Super Saiyan that doesn't want him on it. See why do people agrue about him on the Super Saiyan page when does have the right to be on that one because it does not say a List of Super Saiyans in Dragon Ballbut not argue about him on List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball, a article that is mainly for Saiyans in Dragon Ball? Here is what I feel, on the List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball he should be removed but for Saiyan and Super Saiyan he should stay.

As for the list about Dr. Slump. I have realized that it does not need a list but still add them to the List of Dragon Ball characters as special appearances, a crossover, or something of that nature.

Heat P 17:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

But why limit it to saiyans in Dragonball? As far as I know Dragonball is the only series besides Neko Majin Z to feature saiyans or supersaiyans. Adding Onio won't kill anybody. Also stuff like "List of Saiyans in Dragonball" that exclusively feature species or things that only apear in Dragonball don't need to say "in dragonball" at the end it just takes up more space.DBZROCKS 22:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

We can do that and it would stop a lot of confusion. But it has to be a unanimous or majority voted decision. Don't want to remove it and have people jumping down your throat for erasing Dragon Ball from the that article title.

Heat P 14:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

than let us begin the poll! suport or not? (note, please explain why you suport or dont support putting Onio on the list of Saiyans and changing the name from list of Saiyans in Dragonball to list of Saiyans). DBZROCKS 23:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well I support Onio on only two of the three Saiyan pages because the title of these article are simply Saiyan with is a decription of the saiyan race and Super Saiyans with explains what a Super Saiyans is and who has become one in Akira Toriyama's mangas. Like I said before if he created another Saiyan or Super Saiyan in another manga they should be included in these articles but not included in the List of Saiyans in Dragon Ball simply because of it's title with is exclusively for Dragon Ball characters but I have no problems with the idea of changing it to List of Saiyans. That would give Onio the right to be on that page too.

Heat P 11:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Category:Dragon Ball cast members

After a discussion at CFD, it was suggested that Category:Dragon Ball cast members should be {{listify}}'d. Anyone from WikiProject Dragon Ball like to take this on? Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll try it out. If anything, the workload should be divided in half. I'm gonna focus on the American (and anyone non-Japanese) voice actors right now. That ok? 66.222.198.121 06:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Template:DB_char

Template:DB_char is in horrible condition (IMO). The way its set up currently divides characters based on race and affiliation, and too many minor characters are listed. I think we should have a template more along the lines of Template:One_Piece_characters where characters are souly devided by affiliation, and only list importatnt characters. Because of the vast ammount of characters and changing roles, we would have to deside on how to deside if a character is important enough to be mentioned on the template, because we can't have a template that takes up half a screen for many reasons. Before this is changed though, I think we need to first finish with the merging/redirecting of articles so we know which characters to link to what pages, but some other ideas on this subject would be nice. Takuthehedgehog 03:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I always thought it was pointless to have characters that redirect to lists in there along an entry for "list". -Dark Dragon Flame 04:09, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I tried doing it. Besides the formatting, is anything bad about it? Nemu 04:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

That's actually pretty good. 66.222.198.121 06:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

It looks alot better now, great job. Takuthehedgehog 09:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I've got a contention with our division between "Main" and "Supporting" (see above). It's pretty tough for me to be satisfied that Son Goten, who is important only in the Buu story arc, is a more major character then someone like Kuririn, who was very important in the original Dragon Ball and up to about half way through Dragon Ball Z. I also have a problem with the "major villains", as several of them aren't even in the manga. What criteria are we using to state that Garlic Jr. is a more important villain then Piccolo Daimao? To be frank, it looks more like a "popular" character template. Beowulph 20:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I don't think space should be a concern. Have any of you looked at some of the military templates? Check out Template:WWIIBritishAFVs for how to hide sections. Beowulph 20:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I added Piccolo Daimao and Super 17 to the villains section, and Red Ribbon Army to Others, since they're pretty important in Dragon Ball. 66.222.198.121 21:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the "article merger nominations" should be deleted once the article is merged. There needs to be some record on the talk page that discussions were taking place. That's the reason there's a Nappa (Dragon Ball), and a Dodoria, and a Zarbon once again and the reason the character template is growing too. Just letting you guys know.--Nohansen 20:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

What happened? no offense to anyone involved but this new template looks much worse and is more of a downgrade than anything else. DBZROCKS 23:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Dragon Ball Z movies

I just wanted to point out that a number of Dragon Ball Z movie artcles have been moved to include "Dragon Ball Z:" in articles' name and created numerous bad links in doing so. Whats the general consensus on this? Just wanted to bring this to your attentions. -- bulletproof ^3:16 02:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to include the entire name of the movie. Just because it's part of a franchise doesn't mean we should take the franchise name out of the title. I'm sure Wiki probably has some rule saying articles on movies should include the entire title, otherwise Borat! Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan wouldn't have such a long article name. With some of the movie names you can't tell that it's a DBZ movie without Dragon Ball Z in the title. Takuthehedgehog 18:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

My concern here really is about all the bad links the mover created when he decided to move all of these movie articles. -- bulletproof ^3:16 02:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

mass deletion?

Is it just me or has there been a lot of deletions with charecter pages (like with bardock Gotenks and many others) lately. I've been taking a wikibreak for I while, did I miss something?DBZROCKS 23:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's what happened while you were gone. Takuthehedgehog 00:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks now I understand. though why was list of Androids merged it was better on its own DBZROCKS 00:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

hehe, didn't you noticed that big text block up there, anyways the articles weren't deleated they were merged somewhere else cause we needed to cut the number of lists. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I do know it was merged (I even said so in my previous statement) I was just saying that the list of andriods was better left off not merged. and also why are thier animals under earthlings? was the list of animals deleted as well? DBZROCKS 00:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow is there a list of what was deleted? I really didn't expect all this stuff to be deleted in the three days I was gone. DBZROCKS 00:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I cleaned up Bardock's entry on the list of saiyans (See here) but it's been reverted. I'm not looking to make a big thing out of it. I just want to know the Project members' opinion on my edit.--Nohansen 15:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

the main page problem

I have seen all the new changes that have happened since I took a break but I think there is something we are all forgeting about. The Main Dragonball Z page itself it isnt very usefull it just rambles on and on about censoring and box-set releases. sure theres a page on Dragonball in general but thats no excuse for having no information on the plot and other elements of Dragonball Z in the Main page. Im sure we can work to improve this article to help it meet wikipedia's quality standerds. DBZROCKS 01:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

If it's gonna follow the usual anime guidlines, the article should have sections like this..

- Little intro like this...

Dragon Ball Z (ドラゴンボールZ, Doragon Bōru Zetto) is a Japanese anime series based on the Dragon Ball manga written and drawn by Akira Toriyama. The series primarily centers around the adventures of Son Goku and his friends as they defend the Earth and many other planets against various villains.

An adaption of the Dragon Ball manga, Dragon Ball Z primarily draws upon the 17-42 volumes of the manga . So far, the anime series spawned 291 episodes, 13 movies, and variously related merchandise.

Plot

Characters (this should have at least two or three characters from each 'race' of Dragon Ball, not including the villains)

Reception (In any case, the stuff from 10 years ago should count 'as first', then anything else afterwards)

Format (Airing stuff. Elfen Lied is a good example)

Theme songs (Already have that)

Cast Blah blah. But yeah, that's my opinion 66.222.198.121 04:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

sounds better all ready. but just to be safe lets remove all that boring stuff about box set videos. DBZROCKS 12:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

If anything, the box set stuff should be in 'releases'. Or we should make a 'List of Dragon Ball Z media' page and include it in there VelocityEX 02:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure but it the box set stuff should be really trimmed down right now it takes up too much space.DBZROCKS 12:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Merging thoughts

After reviewing the recent merges to the lists I had a few ideas for them. instead of having it as one big list dividing it up without making another list would be good take list of earthlings you could divide it up into animals humans and androids/cyborgs. Aliens could be divided up into Frieza related Charecters Namekians and miscellaneous aliens. Dieties could be split into The Kai's and dragons (shenlong Xing long etc.) this could make the lists eaiser to follow and more organized. any thoughts? DBZROCKS 22:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Participants

Can we have some sort of standard? Such as you must have more than 30 edits or so to join? I've seen a lot of users with little to no contributions joining, so I was wondering about this--양복⁴² 17:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

There is one (Da Bulls ) that the only contribution he had was singning this page, funny isn't it? yeah we definetily need some sort of standard. -Dark Dragon Flame 17:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

A standard would probably be m:Instruction creep. I would simply suggest removing users who do not have enough contributions to participate in the project meaningfully. --Deskana (Alright, on your feet soldier!) 17:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine--양복⁴² 17:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems like Power level (Dragon Ball) is no more... -Dark Dragon Flame 18:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Emotionl statements on article pages

I was looking through some of the minor character articles and I notice that on a few, someone went and put what seem to be a emotional opinionated theory on a couple of pages. For instants on Super 17 page at the end of his Bio/story summary, in the technique and in the trivia section. In the Bio section explains a theroy on how the original A 17 could have been wished back to life. If you read it you see what I mean by an emotional original research. Well I don't mind if some theroies are add but only if it is stated in that why but we can't put emotions into articles as it can ruin it as this is a encyclopedia not a personal forum or theory site. We need to watch how we add stuff to articles. Many things like theories and adding things that you know is true but keeps getting erased or people don't want to add for some reason or another. Heat P 16:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I know what you mean I had to do some serious editing on the android 18 article because it was loaded with thoeries and video game information. example: Max power:puts Android 18 into max power mode and lets her use her utimate blast. WTF? DBZROCKS 21:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

List of Dragonball Z movies.

seeing as how the number of lists has been cut down completely (see my thoughts on it on Merging thoughts) and that the Dragonball Z Page lists the movies twice can we delete the list of movies page I was just there and it looks pretty bad. PS:Happy March! DBZROCKS 21:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Akira Toriyama's view of GT

very interesting, i found the translation of what he wrote on the dragonbox

"ドラゴンボールDVD BOXを買っていただいたみなさん、ほんとうにありがとうございます。 I am truly thankful to all of you who bought this Dragon Ball GT DVD Box.

連載していた　ドラゴンボールが無事終了し、本来なまけもののボクは　やっと　しめきり地獄から解放されめちゃめちゃ　喜んでいました。 Having quietly ended Dragon Ball in serialization, I, who am lazy by nature, was happy to finally be liberated from Deadline Hell.

テレビアニメの方はもうすこし続けたいとのことでしたが、ボクはもうこれ以上は…。というわけでドラゴンボールのアニメはストーリーも含め、すっかりアニメスタッフの方々におまかせすることになったのです。 The people from the TV anime were wanting to continue just a little further, but since I didn't want to do any more than I already had, I ended up leaving everything, including the story, up to the people on the anime staff.

それが『ドラゴンボールGT』です。 That is "Dragon Ball GT".

GTというのはクルマ用語で「グランツーリスモ」つまり速くて高性能なクルマってことですが、この場合は宇宙を駆けまわるっていう設定でしたので「グランドツーリング」壮大な旅という意味を込んでGTとしました。 "GT" is an automotive term, "gran turismo" -- in other words, a fast, powerful car. But in this case, since the plan was to be running all around the universe, I made it GT, carrying the meaning of a great journey, "grand touring."

GTでボクがやったことといえば　このタイトルと最初の主要メンバー、一部のメカデザインと数枚のイメージカットだけですが、ずっとドラゴンボールを続けていただいてきた優秀なスタッフのみなさんなので　安心して　おまかせすることができたのです。 In GT, the only contributions that I made were the title, the initial main character designs, some of the mecha designs, and a number of image cuts. But thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball, I was able to relax and leave it to them.

とくに、アニメーターの中鶴くんは　すごい腕前で、ボクの絵のクセなんかをあっというまに会得してしまい、ときどき自分でも　このキャラデザインを描いたのは、ボクか？中鶴くんか？　などとわからなくなることがあったりするぐらいです。 In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is so skilled, and has such understanding of the peculiarities of my drawings, that there have been times that even I have been like, "Did I draw this character design, or did Nakatsuru-kun?," not being able to tell the difference.

たとえば　このGTに登場する『スーパーサイヤ人４』というのは中鶴くんのデザインで、上に描いた絵は、ボクがそれを見て描いた　似顔絵なんです。うまく描いたでしょうか？ For example, "Super Saiyan 4," which appears in GT, was Nakatsuru-kun's design. The image I drew above is the likeness I made after looking at it. Did I do a good job?

原作　ドラゴンボールの　壮大なサイドストーリーであるドラゴンボールGTを　ボクといっしょに楽しく観ていただければ　幸いです。 If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased.

鳥山明 Akira Toriyama"

- could this be relevant to the article on that Akira believes this to be a "side-story" to GT and not a direct continuation of his story?

Well even though Toriyama said a "Grand Side Story" it is truly not one as by definition found on the Wikipedia page side story here is the definition for it.

"A side story in fiction is a form of narrative that occurs alongside established stories set within a fictional universe. As opposed to a prequel, sequel, or interquel, a side story takes place within the same time frame as an existing work.(GT takes places 5 years after DBZ ends and not along side it)

Side stories are common in epic type series, especially war oriented series where it is possible to tell many stories from many different points of view.(GT is one conscistent story and not many different ones) It is typical for side stories to be self contained, small scale events, insignificant in the bigger picture. They tend to be one shot stories with a beginning, middle, and end and focus heavily on character drama while the major action occurs mostly in the background.(GT in the begining may have been seen like that but it became a bigger complete series with no one shots and does not focus on character drama, it focus on all the major action that does not occur in the background of the story and has major big scale events.)

A side story is not quite the same as a spin-off. A spin-off takes already known characters, usually supporting or background characters and involves them in a story or series which highlights them and further develops their character.(This is what GT does to Goku, Pan, Trunks, and Vegeta) The series' true main characters may make cameo appearances or be referred to in dialogue.(The main DB character Goku is the main focus of GT.) Side stories, rather, focus on a completely new set of characters who have no history and typically no connections to the existing main characters.(Do i need to say more?) The settings for side stories are intentionally away from the major events that the main characters are known to be participating in.

So even though Toriyama said it is a Side Story, it is actually a Spin off or sequel to DBZ. It is just not a continuation he created.

Heat P 13:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, It's good that Akira Toriyama finally recognized Gt as part of the dragon universe (pretty much stops many GT arguments right there). It's interesting (as UTC noted) his way of thinking of it. While Akira Toriyama clearly said "Side story", I think interpreting it as "spin off" is near what he probably meant to say. It's obvious he doesn't want GT to be a direct sequel to DBZ (meaning concluding what DBZ had set up: themes/narrative/ etc like Gohan's potential, Goku/Vegeta rivalry). Gt is another story, it's own story. And I think fans can live with that (I know the only reason I didnt accept GT was because I wanted "Z" (anime universe, not manga) to be the ultimate ending to THAT story that started with the Saiyan saga all the way to Buu. It's like The Lord of the Rings trilogy being a sequel to the The Silmarillion (same universe and some characters, but it's 2 different stories). Or Star Trek Next Generation not being a direct sequel (IE: the real end to...) the Original series, etc.

Star Wars is different as the expanded universe novels continue the same fight that was in the movies, making them sequels. In a way, it's a "spin off", except there is a clear word for that in Japanese and it's definately not what Akira Toriyama wanted to say (I've read this already in Japanese from my friend who owns all 3 dragon boxes. So it's just that: "A side story" (another story in the dragon ball universe that happens to happen years after Z) Great find. (FoxFang)

In a way I agree but it does not clearly state in that translation of his statement that it is obvious he didn't want GT to be a direct sequel to DBZ. And as by the translation and I will quote "Having quietly ended Dragon Ball in serialization, I, who am lazy by nature, was happy to finally be liberated from Deadline Hell. The people from the TV anime were wanting to continue just a little further, but since I didn't want to do any more than I already had, I ended up leaving everything, including the story, up to the people on the anime staff. That is "Dragon Ball GT"." He does not in any way state he does not want a direct sequel of his anime adaption of his work. Also he states "In GT, the only contributions that I made were the title, the initial main character designs, some of the mecha designs, and a number of image cuts. But thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball, I was able to relax and leave it to them. Which in turn condradicts himself with this side story but It is his work or rather his staff. And if he wants to call GT a Side Story then I will accept it. I still like it no matter what. But you can't say he clearly didn't want it to be a direct sequel with no real statement saying it other than Grand Side Story. Yes GT is it's own story but it is still strongly connected to DB. Kind of how the Superman movies are going now. We have 2 main movies(Superman and Superman 2 and then 2 direct but different sets of sequel(Superman 3 and 4 one set of sequels and then the newer Superman returns as a direct sequel to Superman 2) same goes for DB though we have GT, Toriyama can come back anytime and give his own fix to a sequel or spin off. I just wanted to show you he (in my eyes) condradicted himself but like I also said I will accept his decision to make GT a Side Story.

Heat P 11:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you're right now that I think about it. His statement is still vague (ex- "continue it", does that mean dragon ball universe in general? Z?). I'll also accept GT as a side story that relates to DB and Z in many ways but it wasnt what DB and Z were building for as they had their own endings concluding all their issues. I think by calling it "the original DB's grand side story" can be interpreted in a few way, but it's obvious that if he wanted to view it as the conclusion/continuation of the original manga story, then he would have said so. So do you think this info should be added to the main page? (seeing as fans take Akira Toriyama's words like a gospel) (FoxFang)

The Ki (Dragonball) article

I have been thinking of taking some of these articles in the DBZ section and DBZ sections and translating them to Spanish. I have yet to see the Spanish manual of style for Wiki. I will get it done come hail or high water though. Bardock the Mexican71.224.32.19 23:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

If you seek help in doing that I don't think anybody besides me knows spanish here, but I can lend a hand. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Redirection of the Vegetto Article

Because i'm new to this system, i demand that all experienced users treat me with some kind of respect! (Of course, this will apply vice-versa) Now before i go on, i would to like to know the reasons to why Vegetto (and other articles.. but more importantly Vegetto) is being redirected (or has been). I have been communicating with a user by the name of "Nemu", and he has failed to provide reasons to why he himself is redirecting the article. This confusion is bewildering me. So can someone please talk to me? Gooden 21:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Have you read anything that I have said? Did you even look at the discussion up there? We, as a group, decided which articles should stay, or go. Vegetto was on the list to go. That's it. Nemu 21:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Demanding anything, respect or otherwise, makes people not respect you. I can't respect someone who demands something of me. --Deskana (talk) 21:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Haaaa.... relax. Ok, i know that you all agreed to Vegetto's redirecting. BUT WHY! TELL ME WHY!!!! Give me the valid reasons and arguments that supported this action. You have yet to do this Gooden 21:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC) (To Deskana) You don't have to do anything. It's a simple equation: If you want respect from me, i demand respect from you. End of story! Now let's back on track here.

It's unbelievable that you're still pursuing this. You've been told so many times by Nemu.--SUIT^양복 21:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Told me what? All Nemu has done is give me the link to this page (and i'm grateful), and tell me that because Vegetto's name was randomly inserted as apart of the Merge list, he's going to be redirected because his name is on there. I'm fighting for the reason behind this. So far Noone has given me a justified reason. Until this is done, i'll fight for Vegetto's right to be an article! Gooden 21:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll say this slowly. The. Reason. He. Was. Redirected. Is. Because. As. A. Group. We. Decided. All. The. Characters. On. The. Merge. List. Were. Too. Minor. To. Keep. Nemu 21:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

There you again with your vague statements. You all just sat down one day and decided "Oh, i think i want to put something called Vegetto on the merging list" WHY DID YOU ALL PUT VEGETTO ON THERE! You have such poor logic. Gooden

Read the damn discussion. We decided (over a few weeks) that if a character was placed on the list, and nobody disputed it for a while, it would be redirected. We did it like that to avoid single discussions like this. You must be related to Power Level.Nemu 22:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Related to who? What are you talking about? So are you saying it is too late to discuss the fate Vegetto, and that he will permanently remain a short less informed section, rather than an article which covers everything about him? Is that what you're telling me? Because you all said so, anyone else's input will be ignored? Is that it? Gooden 22:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Screw it. I'm done speaking with you. I don't know why I've bothered to for this long. You've been editing for around nine months. You should get how this site works. I'll let someone else take over, or just hope you give up. Nemu 22:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh don't you worry, whether you or anyone esle decide to tell me why Vegetto is not or should not be an article is up to you! I will find out regardless! I refuse to let something like this go on without justification. And if you folks refuse to talk with me, a new member, that's fine! I'll go elsewhere to get to the bottom of this! Gooden 22:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is the justification you seek, Vegetto as an article was pretty much a list of abilities and a plot, now when you clean up the plot there's not much left to be an article by itself, see how easy that is to understand. -Dark Dragon Flame 00:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

All right since you wont listen to the old members I a new member will explain this to you. Vegetto only appeared for two or so manga chapters. There wasn't enough info. So since the Dragonball Z section of Wikipedia was being revamped there was a Huge discussion (which I missed to two sickness) about which articles would be kept or merged. So Natrually we decided to Merge the article. Now that thats done I would like to tell you that you can't demand respect you have to earn it by proving yourself a nice and trustworthy person. so lets put this behind us and start over ok? good. Case closed. DBZROCKS 00:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say "old"...--SUIT^양복 00:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

sorry suit I ment something like experianced. DBZROCKS 00:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... interesting. But i still decline. He does deserve an article, and here's why:

• Vegetto didn't just come and go, he dominated a being who was thought to be completely invincible when he absorbed Gohan, Super Buu. That friends is an accomplishment. A major accomplishment that can be informed to those who are interested.
• Vegetto's power is amazing. The article would further explain his power to the many other powerful characters such as Gogeta, Omega Shenron, etc. He deserves an article because he is drastically important because he is a fusion who dominated Majin Buu.
• The current section in which Vegetto is linked to does not provide adequate information for the reader. My idea for an article (and Wikipedia's broader idea) is that it should be so thorougly explained, you should learn something new about it.
• Not because Vegetto seemed to be such a short "come and go", doesn't mean he does not deserve a place for an article. With an article, we can share every information about Vegetto, rather than summarize everything, leaving out important information.

I say we include Vegetto as an article because of these reasons. You guys keep saying that Vegetto's article is only about abilities, plot, and etc. Well why don't you let someone with adequate information write the article. Who are you all to say that someone is denied the privelage of creating an article? I would like to create the Vegetto article, and you folks are stopping me for silly reasons! I don't believe that you folks are doing this for the benefit of the readers. I think you're all doing this selfishly, governing only those individuals who you seem fit. So i'm asking you, let Vegetto become a article. Please! I'm getting very anxious to write about him. Gooden 01:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

He already had an article, look in the history. What you're talking about is speculation, OR, cruft, and junk. Those are all frowned upon, so, no. Your only agrument is WP:ILIKEIT, so, no. You're just a rabid fanboy, so, no. Nemu 01:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, you're free to increase his entry on the list at time (to a resonable length). The only reason it's that short is because the entry was filled with junk before. Nemu 01:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What? Are you telling me that i cannot write an article? You know what, i don't have time for this! I've been waisting my time with you folks. You can't even talk reasonably to come to an agreement. Enough! I've tried, but obviously i've failed. So it's time to take matter's into my own hands! Gooden 01:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

How the hell do you reach an agreement if "it's your way or the highway?" Nemu 02:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Gooden, you will not violate consensus. I will not let you. I suggest you take a good long look at Wikipedia:Consensus otherwise I will take measures to prevent you from violating it. Consider this your first and final warning. --Deskana (talk) 02:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Though I'm pretty sure civility and Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers isn't being followed here, there are excellent reasons why the dozens of character-specific articles were redirected. And Gooden is probably the first example I've ever seen of a newcomer preemptively biting the experienced administrators. It's great for irony, but Gooden: I also urge you to find consensus and follow it. Failing that, go write something about Naruto or something. They don't have a Wikiproject yet that I know of. ;) JRP 02:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

People are still considered new when they've been here for close to a year? Nemu 03:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

New to the project was what I meant. JRP 03:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to the WP:BITE comment. Nemu 03:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm starting to doubt this guy is a newcomer. --Deskana (talk) 03:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you folks yapping about? This isn't about me, it's about the article! I want to write the article, and according to Wikipedia: "I can be bold at that!" You people are telling me that i am not allowed to create a Vegetto article because you all agreed on something that isn't 100% justified. You're just saying, "Oh, because it doesn't seem to have enough information, we'll just redirect it to a shorter one". You are all taking the previous article as your example. You are all being completely unfair in this situation, and i refuse to accept this. None of you can tell me what to do, and i can't either. Therefore, if i wish to do something for wikipedia that will aid it and it's readers, then i do not see why you are all stopping me. This is why i will be relentless until I find out why this is happening! Gooden 03:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As stated above, read Wikipedia:Consensus. Nemu 03:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok just to be fair, i'm going to repeat my case for the Vegetto article maintenance. Here are my reasons:

• Vegetto is just as important as any main hero. As a matter of fact, he's stronger than every one from Dragon Ball Z (and probably some from GT). So why not give him a good article?
• You folks keep saying that his article does not have enough information. Is that reason enough to ban someone who has the sufficient amount of information and can enhance the article from editing the article?
• Even though you all agreed on this, i'm sure there were some who disagreed. If these people are staunched individuals about the situation, they would justify their points. If they did, then their would be no reason for you all to just ignore their say, because he or she is just one person, compare to the many of you all!

These are my reasons! So talk to me. Gooden 03:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Strength does not equal Notability. That is also no reason to make an article. The article needs notable info. All it can have for info is a plot summary of a few episodes (WP:NOT), and cruft like attacks and stuff. People disagreed for a bit, but eventually came around. Please just shut up. Nemu 04:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hm, and you all wonder why i can't talk to you folks! Hahaha, funny! Like i said before, i'll deal with this sitation my way! Talking to you folks is of absolutely no benefit! Gooden 04:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Damn, I hate people like you. You keep talking about discussing, but when things don't go your way, everybody is suddenly wrong, and you become the hero that must do everything in his power to do the right thing. If you're going to do it "your way," pleas do it soon, so you can be blocked or whatever. Nemu 04:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Should anyone feel like talking with me in a more respectable manner, i'll be waiting in my talk page. Or, you could "holler" at me right here. Until then, chow! Gooden 04:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Vegetto doesn't warrant his own article, but how about letting this Gooden fellow "write" the Vegetto article? He seems welling, give him a shot. See what he can do. Give him say... a week to write it. If it's not up to par (meaning: out-of universe, well referenced, no cruft, etc.) redirect it again. It'd be fun!--Nohansen 04:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Now we're rocking! That's the kind of agreement we need to be coming to around here! You rock! Gooden 04:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No. One thing is that he cannot write a decent article. The article he has worked on is very screwed up. He also wants to add fan cruft like how powerful he is compared to other characters. There is no way to let the article exist as it will always be junky. Nemu 04:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Congrats, Gooden. One User agreed with you. Now try getting all the other 39 WikiProject members to agree with you too. Good luck! -- bulletproof ^3:16 05:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, by my count he's still screwed because I'm not even a member of this project. I'm WP:ANIME. But I think you should let him get the Vegetto article out of his system so the project can go back to business as usual. That, or ban him. Either way.--Nohansen 05:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If we let him edit the article, he'll just say it's good, and never let it rest. We'll just have to wait until he's banned. Nemu 05:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Why are you going to ban me? Because i'm against something that's "Huge"? Because i'm on a mission to figure out why i have no right to write an article? Impressive, i never knew individuals on this encyclopedia could get this one sided. And in doing so, it will also have fooled me into thinking i could actually talk things through. Man..... Gooden 05:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No, an admin will ban you when you eventually start to edit the article all of the time without reaching a consensus. You never tried to talk anything through. You just stated your opinions and ignored our arguments. Nemu 05:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If only Wiki-star was here to see this...-- bulletproof ^3:16 05:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I never ignored anyone's case. I've been quite informative on my case. You have all still yet to tell me why i am not allowed to create the Vegetto article. You're all assuming that i will cause chaos in this article. This is the kind of behavior i feared when i signed up. This just means if i can't create the article, millions of other people who would like to see a Vegetto article won't be able to do so either. And why? Because you all agreed on it, and it stays like that forever. That's not fair! I believed users to be kind and curteous, that's what i read on the Policies and Guidlines. You all are doing a terrible job. And i will get down to the roots of it all! Gooden 05:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Millions of people seems a bit much--SUIT^양복 05:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, stop it. It has been explained to you at least twenty times, but just because your favorite character isn't notable, you say we haven't explained it at all. Nemu 05:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

So now you're assuming that Vegetto is my favorite character, and i'm a fanboy? Hahaha, haaaa man. Soon! Don't you worry, soon enough! Just keep at it! Gooden 05:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This guy has to be a sock of one of our annoying friends. Nemu 05:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed... somehow, though, I think he'll take that as an insult. -- bulletproof ^3:16 05:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

So, Gooden, besides "Vegetto's power is amazing"... Do you know anything worthwhile to write in a Vegetto article? Something on his appearance on the show? The concept and creation of the character? How Masako Nozawa portrayed him?--Nohansen 05:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Did Gooden just threatened TTN? it sure looks like it. So why is this still going I thought I explained to him the reason the article was deleted hours ago. -Dark Dragon Flame 05:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Gooden doesn't know when to stop--SUIT^양복 05:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course i know more about Vegetto: his history, his power, his actions while present, his voice makers, etc. You folks are just assuming otherwise. Which is why i am relentless to write this article! I refuse to let you folks stop me because you all said so! No, never! Gooden 05:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You are the most rediculous user I've ever seen. You just don't stop, even when the majority is against you.--SUIT^양복 05:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say he's still behind WS, and Zarbon(and friends). Anyways, good luck, Gooden. It'll never happen. Nemu 05:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Why are you people comparing me to other users whom you all seem to think were terrible members? Please cease this behavior immediately! I do not like this! And i will not repeat myself again: Do not insult me, or compare me to other users (especially when they seem to be bad). I'm not a bad guy, i'm just very determine to get something. Gooden 05:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

We are way beyond the point of assuming good faith. Nemu 05:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Gooden you remember me of someone, see what happens to rabid fanboys here I hope you cease this or you will run with the same fate. -Dark Dragon Flame 05:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Until i am given a valid reason as to why i will never be able to create the Vegetto article, i don't see why i should stop pursuing happiness. I'll make myself happy by contributing, and i know i'll make others happy with information. Gooden 05:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you just reject reality, and supplement it with your own or something? We have given you the damn reasons. You will never get "your" page. Nemu 05:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

TTN I think it's about time we start ignoring him, I mean it's not helping us you couldn't take Power Level and he wasn't half as persistent as this guy is he might lead you into an edit war, really he is way to thick to budge so why even try? -Dark Dragon Flame 06:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, at this point I have nothing to do except sleep, but I won't be able to, so I'm going to stick with this for now. Nemu 06:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Just as i've mentioned before, you all are assuming things about me. You all know nothing about me, but yet judge me easily. How do you know that the Vegetto page i create is "My Page". I'm trying to write an article that follows guidlines here. If there needs to be improvements, we can sit down and talk about them together. But instead, you're all waisting your fingers worrying about your little "clique". I just want to write the article, that's all. Gooden 06:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, you won't. The end. Nemu 06:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Your words mean nothing, which is exactly why i'm getting down to the bottom of this! Gooden 06:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Just drop the damn issue and get on with your life. You should know by now that the majority is against you and there's nothing you can do about it. Is "I'll get to the bottom of this" the only thing you can say?--SUIT^양복 06:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What bottom? No admin is going to overrule a consensus of a full project. Nemu 06:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh i'm getting down all right, alllllll the way down! You know what i mean? If not, you'll see! Be patient. Bad things come to those who push the envelope! Gooden 06:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You are taking this to serious but you are missing the point, the issue is you are free to go ahead and write the page, now if the article is insufficient (wich believe me it will) it will be brought back here and it will be disscused about all over again and it will be redirected again, then what did you acomplish? -Dark Dragon Flame 06:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Two questions for Gooden:

1. After reading this, what would you add to it?
2. Why does a character who is only around for 33 pages need an article? That's not even two-and-half chapters.

Ponder these questions, and get to the bottom of it! ~SnapperTo 06:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

See i would like to believe that, but users such as Nemu keep on redirecting the article even after i've barely started it. That's what i'm concerned about. I'm being isolated from writing the article. Why? Gooden 06:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

To Snapper: Skimming that article, it's not a matter of what i'll add, but what i'll delete. You folks say that the article is too long and some information is useless, which is why you all agreed to redirect it to a much shorter section. But when i create the article, it will look similar, but much shorter and concise, with every information about him! No questions ask! Gooden 06:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet, in the end, it would still be redirected either by someone here, or a closing admin of an AfD. Nemu 06:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If people don't want a long version of the article, why would they want a shorter version? That the article was long wasn't the issue, it was that there isn't much to say about Vegetto. ~SnapperTo 06:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother asking him questions. All we can do is sit back, and enjoy his futility. Nemu 06:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Simply telling him no obviously hasn't worked, and this may be less time consuming in the long run. ~SnapperTo 06:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

(To Snapper) And who are you to determine the amount of information which will be inserted in the article. You don't know what kind of information I, or anyone else have for the article. You're just assuming that my product along with everyone else's will be the same. This is exactly why i refuse to accept this situation the way it is! (P.S) Please ignore Nemu Snapper, at least you seem to be calmer and more interested in getting down to what this big deal is about. Thanks for the understanding! But i'll still fight! Gooden 06:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You yourself said that you wouldn't really add anything that wasn't already in the former Vegetto article, instead compressing what was there and rearranging it to make it more sensical. If this is still true, I again ask why people would support keeping what would basically be a shorter copy of what they already agreed to merge? If it is not true, I again ask what you would add. When it comes down to it, Vegetto is not around for very long, and hence there is not much to say. While you may feel he proves to be very important during his short appearance, characters who have done more, have been around longer, and can have more written about them than Vegetto don't have articles when they could be considered more deserving. The precedent that has been set is not in your favor, and it is not doing you well to start at the top and work your way down. ~SnapperTo 07:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

See, this is just a big waiting game. Nemu 06:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hm, possibly! Gooden 06:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Incase this hasn't been mentioned yet, WP:FICT supports the merging/redirecting as well. -- Ned Scott 09:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Why does this remind me of someone that was resently banned? You know the Broly lover?

Heat P 11:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This reminds me of a LOT of people. Too lazy to list them now though. -- bulletproof ^3:16 11:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What do think he'll do now that the admin on WP:ANI told him he was dead wrong? Nemu 11:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

HA HA HA!!!! I know what you mean BP. As for what he would do well that is up to him. If he is that obsesses with Vegetto then he will most likely do what he what. Which will most likely get him banned so don't hurt you heads over this stupid argument. If it had something to do with many characters then it would be a rigthous argument but over one character come on guys stop giving yourselves headaches. Heat P 12:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[3]... Nemu 14:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you folks so happy about? I'm done with you just yet! I still have the say that Vegetto does deserve an article. Which also means that you simply telling me "NO" because you all said so will only provoke me even further. So as i said before, you all need to communicate civily with me. Cease the name calling, and name comparison. That only causes more trouble! Gooden 14:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

How about no? In your mind, the only possible outcome is that the article comes back. This is not how things work. We have discussed this. You have been told to stop by a few admins. It's over. Nemu 14:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope! You've still yet to tell me why Vegetto will always be a minor character. Not because you all said so means that i must "cope" with it. I don't believe that what you folks did is right. Therefore, i need to investigate this situation to it's core. I need to ensure that every reason i have for Vegetto being an article is counter-ed with immaculate reasoning. We have not officially discussed anything. All we have done is bicker and gripe! Until you are ready, then i suppose the investigation will continue...... Gooden 14:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You want at less one reason? Here is a good reason. Vegetto what is called a Plot character. A plot character is a one time used character used for a specific reason and has no history or reason to be in a story other than for that primary use he or she was created for and Vegetto's use was to fight Buu and try and destroy him with which he somewhat did. Same as Gogeta, when he fought Jamemba and Omega Shenron. Yeah Vegetto was around for a few episodes but what history does he have other than the plot of the fight and who is was created form? Just because he had amazing powers does not make him a adequate character to have his own article again. Also you are obsesses with this character and you can say you are not but as this discussion shows you have gone up against a majority of us and you are fighting a losing battle to which shows us you are obessesed with Vegetto. I say no to this because as I said he is a plot character with no real info other than a plot of a saga. Opinions will not make a good article and will only get viewed by us again and will get rejected if it turns out bad. What opinions I am talking about? Look at your own words and you should see it if your own obsession does not blind you judgement. I got a question for you? Why do you want this character so freakin much to have his own article when there are SO MANY OTHER CHARACTERS that deserves their own a lot more than a one time used character? If you can give us that then maybe it can be considered but I myself do not see that happening. Heat P 15:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

All of what you said Heat makes absolute perfect sense. I agree that Vegetto was around for a short period of time to accomplish a job (which he somewhat did). He really had no or little history. However, i still don't understand why you should take that into consideration and decide that whatever is written for him in an article, will be useless. Most of the characters who have their article shows recap and everything that they did. If i were to add more information to the section Vegetto is in currently, it would need to become an article. You all are assuming that whatever is written for Vegetto, will be a useless. That is ridiculous. You should not stop someone from at least attempting to create the article. Only then by their own product can you judge it. This is why i'm still fighting you folks! Gooden 15:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. Why do you want this character to have his own article when there are others that deserve an article more than Vegetto? For instants a much longer and widely used fusion character Gotenks deserves his own article way more deserving then Vegetto so why do you want Vegetto so badly? Heat P 15:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Also why many think this article would be useless is because all it would be is a recap of 5 episodes that are already summaries in many other articles like the Buu saga or Fusion Saga. So why read the same thing over and over from one article to another. And yes most characters are recaps of other plots but you fail to realize that these main character have a longer history than five episodes and 2 small chapters. Heat P 15:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I want Vegetto to have his own article because the knowledge i have of him is of worth. You can't judge how i'm going to write the article before you actually see the product. A contributor once posted a link which took me to the past Vegetto article. He or she then asked me; "What would you possibly add to it?". My response was that "It's not what i'll add, but what i'll delete".

If i were to at leat start the article, it would include these features:

• Brief introduction (who the hell is Vegetto)
• Biography/History (How did he come into existence)
• Vs. Super Buu (w/Gohan) (This will breifly explain his role)
• Forms/Transformations (Can the dude Transform?)
• Voice Actors (Who's talking like Vegetto?)
• Potara History (How Vegetto's fusion parallels others)
• Techniques (what can he do?)
• Video Game Apperances (Can you play as him?)
• Notes (Some brief info on the guy)
• External Links (Where do i go for even more info?)
• Family Relations (who's the guy related to?)

This is more than enough for an article. I also have 4 more sections for him. But, i don't plan to make the article that long! Gooden 16:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Tell you what then. Rather than taking every single possible opportunity to argue with anyone, why don't you add all that to the Vegetto article as it exists on that list now? Right now, all you've done is argue about it. Bear in mind ANY original research or unverifiable comments added to the article will be deleted. If you just continue to argue then you're simply disrupting the project, and disruption is covered under the blocking policy. So choose. --Deskana (talk) 16:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to create the article, but anyone else is also welcome to add it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. Given that there is a large number of members of this WikiProject that are opposing this article for various reasons, you may have difficulty passing a deletion review. What you are missing from your article description, more than anything else, is a declaration of notability: WHY this character, more than others, deserves an article. JRP 16:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Same thing I been asking him. Why is he? Your knowledge of him does not mean really anything on here because as you may have notice we all know (excuse my language) nearly ever damn thing about Dragon Ball. My knowledge of Vegetto my be the same or even better then yours (that is only a statement not to be meant as a personal attack) So knowledge of a character you like alot does not errane him or her their own article.Heat P 16:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If by "Welcome to create the article" you mean "Deskana will delete it as its a violation of consensus and block you for disruption".... --Deskana (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see the non-existent article go through AFD than have it deleted based on concensus of a Wikiproject. We don't govern Dragon Ball articles, we are here to shepherd and improve them. Just as a general rule, I really don't want to have "WP:BIO AFD" and "WP:MILHIST AFD" based on their own concensuses. Deletion should be a centralized decision. As for blocking for disruption, that is yoiur call. I agree that I see no plausable way that a good Vegetto article could be created that meets WP:FICT and notability criteria. JRP 16:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I suppose you're right in the sense that if we can say "Look, this AfD proves that nobody agrees with you", then that's a good thing. --Deskana (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Since I practically see no end in sight to this problem we are having right now, I suggest letting Gooden do what ever he wants with the article. Deskana, just let him recreate the article, let him work his magic powers, and I'll be the first to nominate it for deletion. We'll have a vote ...again... at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vegetto and, Deskana, you can be the first to delete it. See it works out for everybody! -- bulletproof ^3:16 16:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well before we do that I have something for him. I will give you an example of a supporting character that has been around much long and is well more deserving to have their own article. Chi-Chi the second longest running female in the series under Bulma that has been in every series and has been in nearly every major saga or era of Dragon Ball, the wife of the main character in Dragon Ball and the mother of two of the main characters as well as the grandmother of a main GT character. I myself disputed her being put on a list but she has been and I and others have excepted it. A character that has other than transformations and techniques has everything you mentioned. However after her article was cleaned up it showed she was only a paragraph or two. So how does Vegetto deserve his own article over a much longer running character? Heat P 17:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As i have stated before, you all cannot govern my own knowledge of the subject. This site is designed for knowledge. If i know something, and it's not here, why not create it? I don't really care about what you all think of me, until i see some kind of justice here, i'll keep fighting. But it seems that you folks are giving me a shot. I'll create the article, bits by bits. I want you all to govern every inch of it.

• If you think the information is "decent", leave the article alone!
• If you think the information is good, but could use a little spice, talk to me on improvements. (or better yet, add the spice yourself!)
• If you think the information is irrelevant, DELETE ONLY THAT INFORMATION! Then, state why you deleted it either on the Vegetto talk page, or right here.
• And finally, if you think the information fits just right, comment on it! Bear the news to everyone!

Have we come to an agreement? Gooden 21:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No... that's not what we said. We said were you to try to create it it'd probably be deleted, and I welcomed you to add the information TO THE LIST, not a new article. --Deskana (talk) 21:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you just do what Deskana suggest you do and add it to the list Vegetto is on. Your obssession with this being a article again is going to get you banned. We on this project are telling you not to do this and for good reason but now you have actual administrators telling you no and why. Obssession creates a hardhead, blind eyes, and deaf ears. You are also still avoiding our question about why is he more deserving than others? Also your knowledge can be govern on this as you may put your own opinions, original research, or put your emotions on this character in to the article you want to create. Now I am not saying you are but that is some of the things we look at. Yes, Wikipedia is about knowledge but the right kind of knowledge, real factual and unbiased knowledge. Heat P 11:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry guys but why does Broly get one then? Its not like Wikipedia is short on storage space and if there is enough information to create an article that is at least a page and a half long then its worthy of an article. In addition to that he is a popular character that would be searched for and deserves more than a chunk on a fusion section. Same with Gotenks and Gogeta. They are individuals regardless of their component parts and important to the story of DBZ as much as Broly is to the movies. Hell supporting characters in comics get pages here. Its ridiculous to be trimming down something as big as DBZ this much. Darkwarriorblake 15:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The rule with movie villans seems to be that they have to appear in more than one movie or in both a movie and more than just a cameo in the TV series. That's why only Coola, Broli (we still need to change his name), and Garlic Jr. Takuthehedgehog 15:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)