Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 6

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Add Wendy Carlos

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As I've said earlier, there are some big omissions among electronic musician, and she is one of them. She is known for pioneering work with Moog and produced one of the first well-known electronic music albums in 1968. As an aside, I was also going to suggest Delia Derbyshire  5 but it seems she is listed under Western art music - Composers instead.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom --EleniXDD※Talk 08:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I say this as someone who loves her work and has a copy of Switched-On Bach but Carlos is not in the same ballpark as the other artists we list. Most of her discography isn't even in-print or licensed to digital platforms anymore. Artists is such an oversaturated category and we shouldn't be listing artists that the vast majority of people in the world haven't heard of unless they have a demonstrable legacy that clearly lasts to this very day. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   I wouldn’t use Carlos’s stubborn refusal to put her music online as evidence against her vitality. It was completely impossible to listen to Prince on Youtube until he died, and I’m pretty sure he was a level 4 before that. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Yea but that wasn't my only point. Prince is a household name. Wendy Carlos is a deep cut even in the electronic music world. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   Streaming/licensing aside, vitality isn't the same thing as overall fame, it also counts influence and importance to the field. Iostn (talk) 16:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Max Richter

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Maybe one of the biggest classical composers around right now.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Big fan. The Blue Rider 22:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Way too early to say if he will be vital. No major musical awards won yet, relatively few interwikis, and no clear signs of worldwide renown. There are a ton of similar artists who I think deserve a slot here first and even those I would vote Oppose. One such example is Ludwig Göransson who has more interwikis, more than 3x as many daily pageviews, and an entire Wiki page dedicated to his awards and nominations. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Recentism. Agreed with Aurangzebra. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Mike Oldfield

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Creator of one of the most culturally recognizable instrumental works of the late 20th century.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not really seeing the vitality upon a quick glance through his Wiki article. Yes, Tubular Bells is widely recognized but I think that's more so because of The Exorcist  5. When I hear that track, I think The Exorcist, not Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells. I don't think most people would even know who composed that track or the name of the album it was on even though it is recognizable. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Tubular Bells seems to be more widely associated with the Exorcist in the US, in the UK it is a lot more well-known independently of that. I did consider adding Tubular Bells separately on its own to musical works but there have already been a lot of proposals there lately and I was not sure if it would pass. Iostn (talk) 16:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   That makes sense. Maybe it's American bias but I hadn't heard of the names Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells before reading this post and I consider myself fairly well-versed in music personalities. Would reconsider my vote with further input from others. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Olaus Petri

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A major contributor to the Protestant reformation in Sweden. We already list Mikael Agricola  5, who was a similar figure in Finland, so I propose that we list Olaus Petri as well.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 19:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Propose

Discuss

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Move Pau Gasol  5 and Hakeem Olajuwon  5 to Non-U.S. Men

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Gasol is Spanish, and Olajuwon is Nigerian, but both are listed as Americans Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom, Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Gasol Hakeem is trickier because he attended an American college and played for the USMNT _pbp 15:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. S Gasol/O Olajuwon because of his international play notability. Hakeem has minimal notability attributable to international affiliations.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Gasol only, clearly not American. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Olajuwon – US citizen represented the US national team. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. You know you can just move them yourself. Although I am slightly against moving Olajuwon since he has US citizenship, and he never represented Nigeria as an adult. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Just moved Gasol. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add Chick Corea

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Notable omission in the jazz musicians category. Pioneer of jazz fusion and according to his Wikipedia article, "considered to have been one of the foremost pianists of the post-John Coltrane era." Two of the other artists cited in that category are Herbie Hancock  5 and Keith Jarrett  5 who are already VA5 and he has more interwikis than either of them. In fact, he has 51 interwikis which is extremely high for a jazz musician. Some of his compositions such as Spain (instrumental) and 500 Miles High are fairly recognizable and are considered jazz standards that are highly respected and played in the jazz world. He is tied for 4th in the list for most Grammy wins of all time and every other artist in the top 10 is VA5 or higher. He also has an album (Now He Sings, Now He Sobs) in the Grammy Hall of Fame which indicates "lasting qualitative or historical significance." He has 60+ albums with their own Wikipedia articles (either with himself solo or as ringleader of Return to Forever) and multiple works that are considered the greatest jazz albums of all time such as Light as a Feather. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Definitely a major oversight Iostn (talk) 13:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Peter Thiel

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I know he sometimes acts like a cartoon villain, but he’s been one of the most influential people in the tech world for close to thirty years now. He is closely related to PayPal, Palantir Technologies, and Facebook and has considerably shaped Silicon Valley politics as an author and investor.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Recentism. Let's see how his legacy stacks against other investors. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

   He’s been a notable figure since 2002. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Věra Chytilová

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Czech filmmaker best known for directing and writing the 1966 film Daisies, which in 2022 was voted the 28th greatest film of all time by the Sight & Sound critics poll. Celebrated for her defiant, experimental, and uncompromising approach, she is perhaps the most important figure from the Czechoslovak New Wave after Miloš Forman.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per Iostn. Daisies isn't even VA5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Daisies is a classic film, but is she really well-known for anything else? Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Saman Khuda

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Since we removed Achaemenes, here’s another guy whose vitality is just “found a dynasty”. There are some differences (the biggest one being that there’s a general agreement that Saman Khuda actually existed), but like Achaemenes, he was never a ruler.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Samanid Empire  5 is enough. starship.paint (RUN) 09:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 01:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Eze Nri Ìfikuánim

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This might not be fair since this article only has two sentences, but I'm not sure what make him vital other being the first Eze of Nri, a kingdom we do not list.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
2. good point --EleniXDD※Talk 06:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Good find. I wonder if there's an easy way to create a list of VA5 articles sorted by page size in bytes to get rid of other obvious candidates like this. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
4. The article was created in 2009 and has hardly been bigger. How vital can this person be if nobody knows about him? starship.paint (RUN) 14:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Swap for Kingdom of Nri. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

   @Iostn: I proposed that for addition on the History and Geography talk page. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Walter Jackson Freeman II with António Egas Moniz

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Portuguese neurologist that founded the field of psychosurgery, namely the procedures of cerebral angiography, and more famously the lobotomy. He recieved a Nobel Prize for it. 51 interwikis compared with the lesser known figure of Freeman with only 13 interwikis due to his minor role comparatively in the psychosurgery field. The Blue Rider 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. We don't have the founder of lobotomy? Yeah, we should fix that. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom EleniXDD※Talk 04:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Support addition, not convinced on removal. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Margaret, Maid of Norway  5

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She was seven when she died. Also even though she's here for being the queen of Scots, she never left Norway.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Sometimes, even if they lived for only a short period of time, their death may have many consequences, namely creating a sucession crisis, which was the case here. The Blue Rider 11:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove John I of France

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This is a baby. This is not a kid who didn't make it to adulthood, this is a literal infant who died before he was a week old.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. A life of four days, how to be vital? starship.paint (RUN) 12:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 16:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
4. EleniXDD※Talk 04:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 01:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Louis XVII

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Per logic of John I and others above. Was a claimant to the rule of France but never really held it, and died young _pbp 16:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 16:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
3. EleniXDD※Talk 04:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Article: "He never actually ruled." starship.paint (RUN) 07:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I normally would not support an entry like this, but he held a special significance in the history of the French Revolution  3, which isn't VA4 but VA3, a time which is often considered to maark the start of the modern era of politics. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Sophie, Countess of Bar

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I am just not seeing anything that makes her stand out from all the other rulers of the states that make up the Holy Roman Empire.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Even her French Wikipedia article is similarly short. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Why is she even here? Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 00:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Jacques de Molay  5 to military leaders

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Final leader of the Knights Templar, martyred, namesake of the youth wing of the Freemasons _pbp 10:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 10:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 19:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Carlo Ancelotti

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One of the greatest managers of all time. Interstellarity (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Ancelotti is the most decorated UCL manager and has been highly regarded for over a decade. Idiosincrático (talk) 22:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. Plus he is also one of the coolest men of all time. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Tim Minchin

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Minchin is of moderate notability as a comedian in Australia at best. I can't see how he is vital at this level. Gizza (talk) 00:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom. Gizza (talk) 00:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Sam Zolotow

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I expanded the critic section title under the writers and journalists page a while back chiefly because of this guy, and I would like to shorten it back to just critics. All this guy did was report on Broadway box office returns.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Not seeing any form of vitality. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad cultural significance. starship.paint (RUN) 12:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. I'm not even sure he'd be V7 material, much less V6 or V5 Kevinishere15 (talk) 01:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Mississippi John Hurt

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Probably the biggest person whose career got revived thanks to the American folk music revival.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Hoagy Carmichael

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Very successful songwriter. Wrote several hundred songs, including “Stardust”, “Georgia on My Mind”, “Skylark”, and “Ole Buttermilk Sky”. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Was going to propose this myself yesterday after being inspired by your other suggestions but you beat me to it. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Easy choice. Idiosincrático (talk) 06:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Sam Bankman-Fried to finance, remove Robert Holmes à Court and Elias Hasket Derby

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Sam Bankman-Fried is a central figure in cryptocurrency that committed mass fraud and lost $8 billion of customer money and per BBC he got rich faster than almost anyone in history. He has 23 interwikis. Robert Holmes à Court, Australia's first billionaire, has zero interwikis, while Elias Hasket Derby, an American merchant, has only one interwiki, suggesting that both have low cultural importance. starship.paint (RUN) 06:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nominator. starship.paint (RUN) 06:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removals, not sure about the addition Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:17, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support all proposals. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removals. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

I think it's worth noting that there are quite a few other businessmen currently listed at VA5 who have no better case than Holmes or Derby to be on this list. At the very least, Holmes and Derby were at one point the wealthiest men in their respective countries; some measures (such as GDP slice) put Derby among the 10 wealthiest in the history of the United States. I'm also a little concerned about recentism here: SBF is three years younger than I am, and made and lost his fortune relatively recently. _pbp 17:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

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Entertainer removals

Remove May Wirth

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Obscure circus performer. 1 interwiki.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Snooki

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I don't think she is among the world's most important entertainers. A bit of a flash in the pan.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
8. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Long John Nebel and Major Bowes

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I am not one to quibble that much about U.S. overrepresentation, but 26 of 29 people from the Radio Hosts section are American (plus another American-born). Some of these are too local. 1 interwiki

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Not even V6 material Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Dan Carlin

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Podcaster of recent fame. Arguably not among the present’s most important to begin with.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Robert Emmet Odlum

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Maybe jumping from the Brooklyn Bridge is a more important thing that I am aware of, but we have three people whose vitality rests on this act and Steve Brodie (bridge jumper)  5 was the first to do it.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Tex McCrary

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Article says he hosted the first radio talk show, Meet Tex and Jinx, but this appears to be a dubious claim. The talk show article does not mention him in the History section. 2 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Nev Schulman

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His career section does not stand out. He’s behind Catfish: The TV Show for MTV, way past the channel’s prime.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Marc Summers

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It seems we have a surfeit of 2000s- early 2010s TV personalities and producers. Like Schulman, none of the shows he's related to are especially popular, have won awards, etc.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Joey Stefano

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It seems he only became known for his death. For gay pornography, we have Casey Donovan (actor)  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
6. There's not much that makes this person notable or important enough to qualify their bio as 'vital'; whereas someone like Casey Donovan, who became a 'gay icon' during the Golden Age of Porn, is probably someone far more qualified as 'vital'. Idiosincrático (talk) 04:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think we can have more gay porn stars. In fact, it’s probably the straight male porn stars that need to be removed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
2. I held out on voting on this as I'm not actually really sure, but I will say this - saying he only became known for his death doesn't seem to be reflected by the article at all, especially when he was appearing in music videos with Madonna. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. We have near gender parity in the Adult/pornography section (14 women and 11 men) even though (as far as I know, for better or worse) women are more prominent in this industry.

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Add Robert Schuman

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Quoting the article "Twice Prime Minister of France, a reformist Minister of Finance and a Foreign Minister, he was instrumental in building postwar European and trans-Atlantic institutions and was one of the founders of the European Communities, the Council of Europe and NATO."

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 03:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 21:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Very important. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Though I suspect some might be thrown by him being called twice PM: in France, the role of the Prime Minister is significantly inferior to that of the President (currently Macron). J947 ‡ ^edits 07:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Bernardine Dohrn for Fusako Shigenobu

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We list two separate members of the Weather Underground under "terrorism" - Dohrn and Bill Ayers  5. The WUO was never particularly influential or long-lasting, which makes devoting two slots under a sub-section that only has 16 entries to begin with rather questionable/US-centric. Bill Ayres, leaving aside wherever or not he should be listed there or somewhere else, I think is the more notable of the two and his notability extends beyond that in of itself, which leaves Bernardine Dohrn to be removed. Fusako Shigenobu was one of the leading members of the Arab-Japanese Red Army which was active for much longer and way more high-profile on the world stage.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. makes sense, per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Xu Ling

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I've been scanning through the poets section lately, and while they are a lot of stubs, most of them look like they are at least of decent quality in the poets' native language. The same can't be said for him, whose Chinese Wikipedia article is also pretty bare.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
2. 4 interwikis. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Gillebríghde Albanach

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Another guy whose article amounts to two paragraphs.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. No argument for vitality is present in the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Guillaume de Lorris

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Like Xu Ling, bare English article, and bare French article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Roman de la Rose  5 is already listed. The Blue Rider 20:21, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

   We also have Jean de Meun  5, whose article is in a much better state comparatively. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Scholars know nothing about him other than the fact that he wrote part of an important poem. Not vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Fang (alchemist)

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Not only is her page consists of four short paragraphs, she doesn't even have a Chinese article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. The actual claims to vitality are unsourced, and even if they had sources, "first Chinese woman alchemist" is too specific. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Master Geng

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She does not have a Chinese article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No claim to vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Zhang Zhi (calligrapher)

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Another stub, even in Chinese Wikipedia.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Article makes some good claims to vitality, such as pioneered the modern cursive script and known as one of the Four Talented Calligraphers in Chinese calligraphy. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Manuel Chrysaphes

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Same as my previous proposals today.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No lasting influence. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Patnam Subramania Iyer

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Another bare article that I don't think is ever going to escape stub-status.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Dong Xiwen

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Same thing as usual. Both English and Chinese articles are pretty bleh. I would propose swapping him for his painting The Founding Ceremony of the Nation, but I'm not entirely sure how vital that actually is.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
5. I could potentially support a swap with the one painting he is actually known for, but I'm not even sure if that is vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove the stub-rated critics

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Now that this project got rid of quotas, I think it's safe to say some of these sections have way too many people, the critics section in the journalist page being one of them. For now, I'm proposing to get rid of the stubs, which are:

1. Jon Caramanica
2. Whitwell Elwin
3. Emily Genauer
4. Paul Hume (music critic)
5. Cub Koda
6. Ashton Stevens

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. They lack broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
5. The editors and publishers section needs a cut as well. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Calling some of them stubs was inaccurate, and I rerated two as Start-Class. That said, neutral on Stevens because he makes some good arguments for vitality but doesn't back them up well with specifics, support the rest. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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More entertainer removal proposals

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Remove Marie-Thérèse de Subligny

I appreciate that the Dancers section extends far in history but even her French-language article is quite short. The English version has been up since 2006 and is only one paragraph.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. I am not sure that first professional ballerina to appear in England is good enough for the list. She is almost vital, but she doesn't quite make the cut. Ping me if any more information is unearthed. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Antoine Pitrot

Same as above. Article has been up since 2008 and is only two short paragraphs.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Not important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Harry Rickards

British-Australian vaudeville artist. Relatively obscure figure. 2 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Kreskin

1970s TV mentalist.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Not important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Gene Rayburn

“He is best known as the host of various editions of the American television game show Match Game for over two decades.”

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Definitely not. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bob Vila

“American home improvement television show host known for This Old House (1979–1989), Bob Vila's Home Again (1990–2005), and Bob Vila (2005–2007)." 

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Not on par with Julia Child or even Bob Ross. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Roger Howarth

4 Interwikis, very low for an American actor born in 1968.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Minor actor. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove María Elena Velasco

Known for portraying La India María, a character based on indigenous Mexican women. Not well known outside of Mexico and it would be an understatement to say the character has aged poorly.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Not seeing how she is vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Kyosen Ōhashi

There is no mention of his activities as an enternainer. The Japanese-language article is longer but probably doesn’t make the cut.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Neutral. The state of our article on him does not mean anything, and the Japanese article has a lot more information about his career in entertainment and politics, but I'm not sure if the information in the Japanese article is enough to warrant listing him. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Callinicus of Heliopolis

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One. This man has only one paragraph.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
2. The only thing he is known for is inventing Greek fire  5. He does not need to be listed unless there is secretly a good argument for vitality that is missing from the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Pre-contemporary US politicians clean-up

A little while ago many contemporary US politicians were removed in order to address US bias. In spite of that, this only really touched the "contemporary" section and earlier chronological sections still have a disproportionate US focus, which is actually a lot more egregious in this case as it predates the US even becoming a superpower which would warrant including more.

Remove Nicholas Biddle  5

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Only really seems relevant wrt to the Bank War  5, and we already list his allies Henry Clay  4 and Daniel Webster  5 who seem more vital.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The Bank War gets enough play in the history books to justify Biddle at this level _pbp 19:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Roscoe Conkling

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From the legacy section: "Roscoe Conkling's enduring legacy is scant. Though he was a consequential, colorful and powerful political figure in his day, few lasting social or legislative achievements are attributed to him."

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, probably not VA5 _pbp 19:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Not quite at the level of VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Hiram Johnson  5

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State governor, long-serving senator, isolationist and reformist, but I'm not sure he really stands out enough to be here.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Next to Teddy Roosevelt and possibly Robert LaFollette Sr., most responsible for the enaction of early 20th century progressive reforms, particularly initiative and referendum. How did Awnald become governor of California? Because of a process enacted by Hiram Johnson. _pbp 19:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Frank B. Kellogg  5

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Responsible for the Kellogg–Briand Pact  5, but doesn't really seem that vital in his own right aside from that.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. He DID win a Nobel Peace Prize for that diplomacy _pbp 19:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

   We already removed several articles listed under rebels and actvisists who were there solely for being Nobel Prize winners. Iostn (talk) 21:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Stephen Mather

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First director of the National Park Service (not a VA). Really doesn't seem to be much here other than that, and with only 7 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• I'm neutral on this one. He was extremely important to U.S. National Parks, but I'm not quite sure if that is enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Thomas Brackett Reed  5

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Responsible for significantly increasing the power of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, but again the global relevance of that seems rather dubious.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. LostN already said everything that needs to be said. When the Speakership is at its most powerful (under Joe Cannon and Tom Reed), the Speaker is as powerful as the President, especially if the Speaker is of a different political party. _pbp 19:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Thurlow Weed

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His highest elected office was only the New York State Assembly. He is only listed here presumably for serving as an advisor to other more prominent politicians.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 19:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Being important to a few presidential nominations does not make this guy vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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