Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 April 12

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April 12

'Actor' vs. 'actress'

The Wikipedia style manual at MOS:GNL says: "Use gender-neutral language - avoiding the generic he and generic she, for example - where this can be done with clarity and precision." There is also an essay, WP:WAW, which says "Use gender-neutral nouns when describing professions and positions: actor, author, aviator, bartender, chair, comedian, firefighter, flight attendant, hero, poet, police officer." I have long thought that the word 'actress' is pejorative and should be replaced by 'actor' when referring to a female actor. Words like 'authoress', 'editress' and 'poetess' have already fallen into disuse, and 'actress' should go the same way. However, I cannot find a single Wikipedia article about a major female actor that doesn't use the word 'actress' in the lead. I imagine that, if I went around making this change, I would get a lot of pushback from the "political correctness gone mad" lobby. Nevertheless, the reasons to make the change seem to me compelling. Has the usage of 'actress' ever been discussed on Wikipedia? --Viennese Waltz 17:28, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

If in doubt, go with what the sources say. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 18:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it's been discussed, but consensus for things like this could be fluid. You'll need to bring it up in a more appropriate place; you should first search through the WP:VP archives, where the subject has come up more than once, apparently inconclusively. Usage in sources won't be determinative here; acceptable and preferred usage has changed significantly over time. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:18, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

A fair determinant is the terminology used by the various acting awards shows. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 18:22, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

This seems to be the most recent discussion: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers#Actor or actress? Is there any kind of consensus?. Alansplodge (talk) 18:32, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Viennese_Waltz -- I'm not sure what to advise for Wikipedia use, but it's a fact of current English usage that "actress" and "waitress" are very commonly used (in the United States, at least), while most other occupational titles with feminine suffixes are obsolescent or defunct (maybe "stewardess" and "seamstress" are partial exceptions, though those seem to be in decline; "hostess" and "heiress" are not occupational titles). AnonMoos (talk) 20:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree with all of that except that "hostess" can be an "occupational title"; it means the lady who guides you to your table at a restaurant. --Trovatore (talk) 20:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

"Waiter" and "waitress" are now often replaced by "server". And you can say "actor" for both men and women, but then the awards shows that do that have to say "male actor" and "female actor". <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 23:21, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I must have missed something here in recent years. I can't imagine an American saying "male actor" (which is redundant) or "female actor" (the word is "actress"). Nothing wrong with having gender-based terms as long as they aren't demeaning. Jmar67 (talk) 00:49, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The use of the term "actress" is definitely still in popular use as a non-pejorative in the US, as the Academy Awards have awards that go to "Best Supporting/Main Actress in a Film" and the Tony Awards give out awards to "Best Performance by a Featured/Leading Actress in a Play/Musical". --Tenryuu ² ( ¬  o  Contributions/Tenryuu) 00:59, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

"Actor" is now the common name for an actor of any gender. The actor/actress distinction is cool for awards shows, since it doesn't exclude one sex. This might change. Use your good judgement. Temerarius (talk) 00:56, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Who says "actor" is "now the common name"? <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 01:06, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Certain individuals, sources, Temerarius. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Not necessarily in that order. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 04:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You lost me at the bakery. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting discussion, but a few respondents seem quaintly fixed on the idea that we should decide what to call a female actor based on sources and currently prevailing usage. On the contrary, this has nothing to do with sources. This is not a factual issue like the name of a person or a city. It's a question of style, which is not determined by usage but by the Wikipedia style manual. And the manual seems unambiguous: actor is to be used when referring to both male and female actors. --Viennese Waltz 07:29, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I will quietly ignore that rule. Fortunately I don't have to deal with it that often. Jmar67 (talk) 09:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You are overlooking the possibility that putting it in the style manual was a mistake. As sources still seem to use actress and we have (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that many editors are unfamiliar or uncomfortable with it.--Khajidha (talk) 12:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Viennese_Walz -- there's nothing necessarily wrong with saying "Meryl Streep is an actor", but on the other hand, going around to hundreds of Wikipedia articles to systematically purge the word "actress" seems rather pointless... AnonMoos (talk) 12:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

AND - a woman who writes a will is a "testatrix" - no alternative. If VW checks out dominatrix same rule applies. 89.243.10.133 (talk) 13:59, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

On the other hand, I often encounter people using "masseuse" for any practitioner of massage, despite it being a feminine term (with the actual masculine equivalent being "masseur". --Khajidha (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

for the claim that "actress" is perjorative. I know there is an increasing number of people who think its outdated or inappropriate to use gendered job names, but I'm not aware of anyone who thinks the term is actually perjorative. Iapetus (talk) 20:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

You're responding to someone who has "long thought that" right now. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Technically, VW said pejorative. Here's a discussion from a website from 13 years ago.[1]] <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 08:49, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

There's also this entry from the Guardian style guide. --Viennese Waltz 09:17, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Neither of those links, however, asserts that "actress" is pejorative. --Trovatore (talk) 21:32, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the Guardian one does. "Actress comes into the same category as authoress, comedienne, manageress, "lady doctor", "male nurse" and similar obsolete terms that date from a time when professions were largely the preserve of one sex (usually men)". That is an assertion that the word is pejorative, even if it doesn't say so explicitly. --Viennese Waltz 08:02, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

No, it is not an assertion that it's pejorative. --Trovatore (talk) 18:37, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm always very wary about taking my cue as to whether words are offensive from others, including written documents such as style guides. The speaker's intent is always relevant, as is the hearer's understanding. If there's no offence in either part of that equation, then that's all there is to it. I'd agree that certain words can be, or tend to be, used pejoratively/offensively, and are perhaps best avoided because the risk of causing even unintentional offence is higher than for other words, but no word is offensive in and of itself. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:55, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I disagree that the speaker's intent is always relevant. It's too easy for the speaker to say "well, I didn't mean to offend." As for "no word is offensive in and of itself", I think the n-word disproves that theory. --Viennese Waltz 11:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I disagree.

• I said "If there's no offence in either part of that equation", then the question of offence doesn't arise. If I use a word without intending to offend the hearer, but the hearer gets offended, then that's offence. But if not, not.
• The n-word is the classic example of a word that's used frequently within a certain group to refer to each other, but is considered offensive if used by anyone outside the group to refer to people in the group. If a word is inherently offensive, it would be offensive no matter by whom it is used and to whom it is addressed. The n-word clearly fails this test. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:14, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

• Many black leaders abhor the casual use of the n-word that way, but it does depend on context. NASCAR driver Kyle Larson found out what happens when it's said over an open microphone. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 12:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

• It's weird how offence comes and goes. There was a time within the memory of most of us when words like "shit", "fuck" and "cunt" were completely banned - nay, unthinkable - on radio and TV. Now they're commonplace, yet the n-word is so unmentionable that we have to resort to subterfuge to even refer to it. User:Viennese Waltz: These are further proofs that words cannot be inherently offensive. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:51, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

• It depends on the political power of the subjects of a slur or anything else. Those three words are still banned on regular network TV in America. As to the racist slurs, Lenny Bruce once said that we give too much power to slurs, and that banning them only adds to their power. He said if the president (Kennedy at the time) were to go on TV and give a long speech consisting of nothing but the n-word and other slurs, that those words would become ridiculous and lose their power. That, as far as I know, has never been tried, but it might work. As to words in general, no word has any "inherent" meaning. Words are just combinations of sounds. Someone once said, "Meanings are not in words - meanings are in people." <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 03:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Hollywood has a reputation for "political correctness". If female actors had a problem with the term "actress", as with the Oscars and some other awards shows, don't you think they would demand a change? <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 13:59, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Apparently Elisabeth Moss is one who prefers to be referred to as an actor. There's some discussion at Talk:Elisabeth Moss#Actor vs actress. --Viennese Waltz 14:19, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

As far as award shows go, the terms actor or actress is more of a symptom of unspoken assumption: that is, that you should actually give awards based on gender or sex, instead of only performance. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:57, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

If there was only one neutral award of each type -- "Best leading acting performance of the year" and "Best supporting acting performance of the year" -- then with everything else the way it is now, many years might go by without any women being given acting awards at all... AnonMoos (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Depends in part on how it's designed, for example how the nomination pool is turned-out and whether only one award is given for best leading performances of the year, best supporting performances of the year. Or if one thinks its relevant, best performance in a leading male role, best performance in a leading female role, etc. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:39, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Which is kind of wordy. There are also oddities, such as Linda Hunt winning the Best Actress Oscar despite playing a male character in The Year of Living Dangerously. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 03:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps but rather orthogonal to the point (was Linda Hunt even considered for best actor), the present use of actor and actress in these awards reflects the award being based in gender or sex (not all acting awards still do that but the majors do, and other awards like director or costumer, etc, never did), whether that's good or bad. Alanscottwalker (talk) 05:36, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

As a practical matter, for most purposes most of the time, male actors and female actors aren't even in competition with each other (considered for the same roles and such). Rather, male actors are in competition with other male actors, and actresses are in competition with other actresses. However, male and female sound mixers or whatever are in direct competition with each other... AnonMoos (talk) 16:58, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I get that there might be reasons to hold that awards should be based in gender or sex, but the purpose here is to discuss language, noting that the choice of the gendered language, actor and actress, in these awards reflects that they are based in gender or sex (again, regardless whether one agrees that it should be done or not). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Interesting vowel shift

I Zoom-attended the Easter services of my boyhood church today, and noticed an interesting vowel shift from the pastor. Curious whether anyone knows what it is. The shifts I noticed were:

• /eɪ/ -> /ɛ/ before /l/ (so "bail" sounds a little like "bell")
• /iː/ -> /ɪ/ before /l/ (so "feel" sounds a little like "fill")
• /uː/ -> /y/ (so "you" sounds a little like "yü" with a German umlaut-u)

Does this ring a bell with anyone? --Trovatore (talk) 20:10, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Some American southerners talk that way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:16, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Definitely not a Southern accent. --Trovatore (talk) 20:21, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you could provide a link to it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:19, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Where's your church located? Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 01:00, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Northern California, but I have a vague memory that the pastor may be from Wisconsin. Or not. The way I phrased the question it should be potentially answerable without knowing that. --Trovatore (talk) 03:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, your actual question was whether those isolated pronunciations ring a bell, and with me the bell is the way some southerners talk. If you're not willing to give us any more info, the question arises as to how badly you want to know. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:10, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm a Northern Californian who spent my first 20 years in Michigan. These examples, especially the third, seem reminiscent of Wisconsin or Minnesota to me. Way up river from the Deep South. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:20, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm a Southerner once removed (Mom's side) and to me they seem kind of backwards from Southern. A Southerner is more likely to pronounce "bell" so it sounds like "bail" than vice versa. In fact when I was learning to spell, I wanted to spell "egg" as, I don't know, "age" or something, because I pronounced it /eɪg/. --Trovatore (talk) 05:32, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Could it be the California vowel shift? --Jayron32 13:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  I suppose it's possible. But I don't see any mention there of the specific shifts I mentioned, and the ones they do mention (especially "cone" sounding like a rounded version of "cane") remind me of surfer-dude speech, which is not really what I thought of from this speaker. --Trovatore (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Trovatore, without actually hearing it, I strongly suspect you were hearing an accent usually associated with more rural areas of inland Northern California but, in the last few generations, has spread throughout Northern California. It is the California English#Rural inland variety, originating among migrants to inland California during the Dustbowl era. The particular variety you seem to be describing is the result of migrants from eastern Oklahoma and western Arkansas bringing their unique mixture of old Midland American English#South Midland and Ozark English to the farm country of California where it has continued to evolve. It has the fill–feel merger (in which bail and jail sound like bell and gel) as well as the other two you describe. It was my dialect until I was about 8 yrs old and consciously began efforts to sound more neutral. Most of my older relatives still speak that way while the speech of the younger ones naturally shows more leveling.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 01:09, 20 April 2020 (UTC)