Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 July 7

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July 7

Chichester

In the UK, "Chichester" is a well known place name and personal name, and "i" in the first syllable is always pronounced like in "hit" or "big". I saw a programme the other day about an individual who used the name "Chichester" in the US, while masquerading as someone of English ancestry. When saying this name, most (actually, I think all) of the Americans featured in the programme pronounced the "i" to rhyme with "pie" or "kite", and/or seemed slightly uncertain about how to say it. Is "Chichester" is a well known name in the US? Is the regular pronunciation to rhyme with "pie"/"kite", or were people making a guess because they were not familiar with it? 86.129.17.237 (talk) 00:29, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I would guess that you're talking about the guy who also called himself "Clark Rockefeller". Americans are notoriously bad at not looking into how things are pronounced. Johnny Carson mispronounced the name of his own sidekick, Ed McMahon, for his entire life. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I would assume that because they knew "Chester", they were making a guess based on dividing it into two words Chi-Chester. It's not the method I would use for guessing at placename pronunciations... AnonMoos (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Chichester, New York and Chichester, Pennsylvania are pronounced with the i to rhyme with pie too. Don't know about Chichester, New Hampshire nor do I know how well-known these Chichesters are, but the ˈtʃaɪ-version doesn't seem to be uncommon in the US. This doesn't explain why ... ---Sluzzelin talk 01:29, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. Leonard Bernstein's Chichester Psalms was premiered in New York City but was commissioned by the Chichester Festival in England, so it has the English pronunciation. I wonder if it's ever been performed in the Chichesters in New York (state) or Pennsylvania. Probably not. When I imagine someone saying ˈtʃaɪ-chester, I can't help but think of tea chests. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 02:16, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't be so quick to assume the British pronunciation has priority. There are plenty of words of more than one syllable, such as laboratory, which have a single stress on the antepenult in Britain: labORatry and a major (at least secondary) stress on the penult in American: LABraTORy. Unless we have a source that gives the British stress pattern priority, I am tempted to suspect the American form might be just as valid a reflex of the original as the British. μηδείς (talk) 03:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Your analogy is not too close, since "laboratory" is a Latinate word which is given radically different stress patterns in British and American (for some reason, modern British almost never stresses -ory or -ary suffixes, while American frequently does). In non-Latinate words such "Chichester", the Latinate type of stress variability is generally not allowed, and the only real variation is whether to treat Chichester as a single-stem (non-compound) word with one main stress, or to treat it as having two stems (i.e. as a kind of compound), and so two strongly-stressed syllables. AnonMoos (talk)`

The article on the cathedral city of Chichester in West Sussex gives the pronunciation /ˈtʃɪtʃɨstər/. But this English Chichester is /ˈtʃaɪtʃɛstə/. Sussexonian (talk) 07:31, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I live near Chichester in West Sussex. Although it's pronounced /ˈtʃɪtʃɨstər/, locals regularly refer to it colloquially as "Chi" – pronounced /ˈtʃaɪ/. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 15:50, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I was not strictly trying to draw an analogy with "laboratory", just using it as an example of a word whose vowel qualities differ from American to British due to the stress. In the case of Chichester, the second syllable bears a fully pronounced short /ɛ/ in American. In order to maintain the fully pronounced vowel, the syllable has to have primary or secondary stress. If it were to draw the primary stress, the first syllable would tend either to be fully reduced to /ɨ/ or shortened to /ɪ/. But it is an open syllable (i.e., "chi-" not ending in a consonant like "chip" or "chin"), so the short /ɪ/ is not possible, and an initial /ɨ/ would only be expected if "chi-" were a prefix, which it is not. But, if the first syllable bears a long vowel it can be open and followed by a syllable with a secondary stress. This is what occurs in American. The American pronunciation syllabifies the word as Chi-chest-er with a primary stress on the first vowel, requiring it to be long, since the first syllable is open, and a secondary stress on the second syllable, preventing it from being reduced; whilst the British pronunciation syllabifies the word as Chich-e-ster, allowing a short stressed /ɪ/ in the closed first syllable and a reduced vowel in the second. Note that given the syllabifications, there is no real difference of opinion between the British and Americans over the vowel quality. Americans and Britons are in perfect agreement over how to pronounce the first and second vowels in "bystander" and "minister". The difference is that Americans stress "Chichester" like bystander while Britons stress it like minister. μηδείς (talk) 16:47, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Following on from the point about the British syllabification of the name as Chich-e-ster, per Medeis above: here in Sussex (traditionally, at least), the tendency to stress the first syllable is so emphasised that the name sometimes sounds like Chiddester – /ˈtʃɪdɨstər/ or /ˈtʃɪdəstər/. See here for ref. Saying the name to myself now a few times, I am finding myself veering towards this pronunciation and "losing"/de-emphasising the second syllable. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 17:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Literary element?

In reading some creative writing, I came across "stone sober and viciously drunk". is there some literary term for the play on those words or is it just poetic license? Obviously "stone sober" by itself has alliteration, but what about the entire phrase of contrasts...I'm quite sure I've heard something of the sort for similar phrases.

Also, as an aside, any ideas of what alliteration could replace "viciously"Lihaas (talk) 01:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Dangerously? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, interesting. But it doesnt quite express the anguish it seems the writer wanted.

Just realised the concept of a thesaurus ;) Depraved seem to be the only one there.Lihaas (talk) 02:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

"Violently" ? "Cruelly" ? StuRat (talk) 03:24, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Alliteration means starting with the same consonant(s) as the target word (drunk). How about "dreadfully"? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:50, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Thats nice

But does anyone know if there is a term for a phrase like th eabove?Lihaas (talk) 04:35, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is called literary paradox, but you won't find the article very helpful, since it has the worst case of undue weight I have ever seen at wikipedia. μηδείς (talk) 16:52, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Decidedly drunk ? Deliberately drunk ? Or you could say "He was a Draconian drunk". StuRat (talk) 08:10, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The latter sounds nice.

Just though of other words too...any match with "inebriate"?Lihaas (talk) 10:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

"Indelicate inebriate" ? StuRat (talk) 23:25, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

With regard to the "literary element" question, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "the entire phrase of contrasts", but the general rhetorical term for the juxtaposition of contrasting words or phrases is antithesis. (Cf. the "tough as nails and warm as toast" in the fourth example given here.) Deor (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

How about "devilishly" or "diabolically"? ---Ehrenkater (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

To stick with a single-syllable word: "stone sober and dead drunk", perhaps? Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 17:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I took the meaning to be as in a "mean" drunk. "Despiteful" works, as does "stone sober and sour drunk" which works on the esses. I know an alcoholic who is as vicious as a mink right before drinking begins at happy hour. μηδείς (talk) 17:29, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Creative writing/poetry

I was wondering what/if there are online sources that publish creative writing pieces and poetry on a regular basis. More inclined to the academic stuff as opposed to anyones work. (granted the good pieces and insipiration could come from any source)Lihaas (talk) 02:45, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

There are lots of fanfic sites, or are you talking about more mainstream/professional sites? poetry.com publishes amateur poems and then there's peer review. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 19:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but can you give anyy specific isites?Lihaas (talk) 06:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Short Latin translation needed

"cum Bardulies, quae nunc Castella vocatur, ad accipiendan uxorem accederet": could someone with better Latin than mine please give a translation worthy of being used in an article? I vaguely understand it as "with(?) Bardulia, which is now called Castile, to [something about 'approach'] a wife". - Jmabel | Talk 03:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not a full sentence, and accipiendan is not a real word. Is it supposed to be accipiendam? What is you source? (My guess is it means "since he was coming to Bardulia, which is now called Castile, to take a wife") μηδείς (talk) 03:43, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It's a quotation from a medieval chronicle, so less-than-perfect Latin is par for the course. Source is that this was quoted (without translation) in the Spanish-language Wikipedia. My Spanish is pretty decent; my Latin is paltry. - Jmabel | Talk 04:36, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Surely that's just a typo rather than imperfect Latin. Medeis' translation seems correct. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Hungarian

Could someone help me translate this?

Ferdinánd király várakozásait teljes mértékben igazolta, hogy Germána királyné két év múlva teherbe esett, és 57 éves korában a királynak a fiatal felesége valóban fiút szült. János infáns 1509. május 3-án jött a világra,[1] és automatikusan a nővére, Johanna helyébe lépett, Aragónia trónörököse lett, és elnyerte a Girona hercege címet. Az új trónörökös azonban csak pár órát élt, és az apa öröme ürömmé változott, hiszen a várva-várt fiú még aznap, 1509. május 3-án meghalt.[1] Johanna formálisan ekkor elvesztette a jogát az aragón trónra, és az Aragón Gyűlésnek újra meg kellett volna erősítenie trónöröklési jogát, de Ferdinánd király érvényesnek tekintette az Aragón Gyűlés 1502-es határozatát a lánya trónöröklésére vonatkozóan, és végrendeletében Johannát jelölte meg örökösének, unokáját, Habsburg Károlyt pedig anyja országainak a főkormányzójává Johanna „alkalmatlansága” miatt.[1] Az özvegy királynő ugyanis ebben az időben már teljesen elzárva élt Tordesillasban, így az ő uralkodása és trónöröklése jelképes volt, és csak annyit jelentett, hogy a Habsburg-háznak újból esélyei vannak örökölni Aragóniában is II. Ferdinánd halála után. A házaspár ugyan minden praktikát és szert bevetett az utódnemzés érdekében, de több gyermek nem származott a házasságukból, így Ferdinánd reménye szertefoszlott, hogy Aragóniát saját dinasztiája uralma alatt tartsa, és az ne kerüljön a Habsburgok kezébe.

• Wacha, Brigitte szerk.: A Habsburgok. Egy európai dinasztia története, Gulliver Kiadó, Budapest, 1995.
• De Francisco Olmos, José María: Estudio documental de la moneda castellana de Carlos I fabricada en los Países Bajos (1517), Revista General de Información y Documentación 13, 133–153, 2003. URL: L. Külső hivatkozások

Not th emost accurate but quick (and the rest can be slightly reworded) [1]Lihaas (talk) 04:39, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

• I don't speak Hungarian, but I ran it through Google translate and, while a bit of a hash, it's pretty comprehensible. If you just need the sense of it, that will probably meet your needs, and I recommend it. If you need to come up with a translation for publication purposes, you'll certainly need more than that. - Jmabel | Talk 04:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
• Ah, I see Lihaas did the same, 2 minutes earlier. - Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah this right.

I am trying comprehend what happen to the succession on his death. Did the Aragón Meetings (the Aragonese Cortes I am guessing) have some trouble giving the succession right back to her sister? I have no idea what "Joan formally then lost the right to Aragon throne, and the Aragón Meetings again and had to confirm succession rights, but King Ferdinand valid previewed the Aragón Assembly in 1502 , and the decision of his daughter's throne inheritance of, and testament Joan marked heir, her grandson, Habsburg, Charles and his mother country of the main governor of Johanna "inadequacy" of" mean/ And in the translation, it said he "was killed". I thought he died a natural death. Also how does a person's "joy turned into wormwood"?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 04:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Wormwood is traditionally a very bitter, unpleasant subsstance which was used to purge the body of parasites. So to say "joy turned into wormwood" means joy turned into bitterness, only in a more poetic fashion. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Latin Translation

Can someone translate this "OBIIT DIVAE MEMORIAE RANIMIRUS REX DIE KAL. FEBRUARII. ERA DCCCLXXXVIII. OBTESTOR VOS OMNES QUI HAEC LECTURI ESTIS. UT PRO REQUIE ILLIUS ORARE NON DESINETIS"?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Not th emost accurate but quick (and the rest can be slightly reworded) [2]Lihaas (talk) 04:39, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

• Lihaas, in this case Google Translate is pretty useless. I actually struggled a bit with this and decided I couldn't translate it well enough to put a translation in the article Ramiro I of Asturias. - Jmabel | Talk 04:44, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
• I believe obiit is "he died", divae is somehow related to "divine", then "memory of King Ramiro in February 888 (that would be Spanish era, so 850 AD)." I don't know "obtestor" (something to do with "invoke", apparently, from Google Translate); then "all you who read this. And to pray for his rest do not DESINITIS??". Anyway, the sense of it is clear, but not clear enough for me to have ventured to publish it. - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Divae memoriae means "of sacred memory", and is kind of a fixed phrase. He died on the first day (kalends) of February. "All you who will read this, do not cease to to pray for his rest" (requie shortened for requiete). AnonMoos (talk) 05:32, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Requies was treated as fifth declension sometimes, so that's probably just the regular ablative. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, we're missing "obtestor" still - it is a plea from the person who wrote it, "I pray/beseech/ask that all you who will read this..." etc (AnonMoos has already translated the rest). Adam Bishop (talk) 06:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

What;s the word for ...

Resolved

... that pose you see glamour models doing sometimes, their back to you, looking over their shoulder with a saucy glint? I keep forgetting it, and it's frustrating, cos it's a useful word... Thanks Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:00, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Coquettish? Itsmejudith (talk) 22:05, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, it's a word from zoology, a particular way of presenting to a mate... Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Blue steel? :D Being more serious, it sounds like you are describing what used to be often referred to as a "come hither" look. But as to a clinical zoological term, I'm not sure. Could you provide still more contextual clues? They might narrow down the possibilities some. Snow (talk) 22:36, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, but a particular type of come hither, performed while presenting the rump - dunno how to be more specific - maybe I should be posing this on the science desk... Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:06, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, in animal husbandry there is the concept of "presenting", but presumably that is not the term you are going for either as you just used the word yourself. The more I think on this the more something nags at the back of my mind. I'm sure I've come across this term you're alluding to, and it's going to drive me nuts too now! Snow (talk) 23:14, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Courtship display? That's hardly specific to the pose you describe, but does apply generally. Snow (talk) 23:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah-ha! Lordosis? Snow (talk) 23:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah ha, indeed! Spot on, Snow - how did you find it? And thank you - question answered! Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:57, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Betty Grable engaged in lordosis? Who knew? Deor (talk) 00:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

No, she didn't. Lordosis is a medical condition you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. What we're talking about is "lordosis behaviour", i.e. behaviour that might make you appear to have lordosis, although not done for that reason. Snow did link the right article, but masked it. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:06, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Yup, my bad - force of habit. Snow (talk) 00:10, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Found it in an article on cheetah mating behaviour while searching broadly in that vein (or more precisely I noticed it in the article's abstract on a search page and recognized it - when and where I first encountered it I couldn't say!). And happy to be of help. :) Snow (talk) 00:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)