Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 July 7

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July 7

Did Bouguereau have English ancestry?

I ask because of his name (William). It is very much understandable for French people of English ancestry to have an English name (or the English version), for example Michael Lonsdale, William Waddington and Alfred Sisley. Bouguereau's article mentions nothing of Enlish ancestry and his surname is French. Is there any information about his mother? For, if she was English, she could have asked for an English name for her son (along with the French one, Adolphe). This is also reinforced by the fact that he preferred William to Adolphe, which may denote affection for his English mother.

Thank you in advance.--The Theosophist (talk) 02:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The French Wikipedia article does mention that he was "a des origines anglaises.", but provides no source. This book claims his father was English, but doesn't explain why his surname is French. Maybe his parents weren't married, or he or his father simply adopted a French name. - Lindert (talk) 08:58, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Large numbers of Britons have French surnames, Peter de la Billière springs to mind. Many of them are descended from Huguenot refugees who came here following the Edict of Fontainebleau and the resulting unpleasantness directed at Protestants. There were more refugees during the 18th and 19th centuries from various revolutions, of which the French seem to be especially fond. Alansplodge (talk) 12:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Lots of very old British families also have French surnames because of the influx of the Norman French people at the time of the Norman Conquest. Any of your various Fitz-<blank> names are of Norman-French origin (fitz = fils = son of), but so are many English family names which look even more "French" to modern eyes and which have been in the British Isles for a millennium, such as names like Grenville and Gascoyne and Granger (name) and the like. --Jayron32 02:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Certainly many British people have French surnames. Walter de la Mare comes to mind first, along with many Beauchamps, Villiers′s and Zouche′s. Still, if a British family of French ancestry (re-)settles in France, it would be rather peculiar if they gave their French-born child an English name. Also, his article somehow leaves the impression that the family was long-established in La Rochelle, and his uncle being a priest with a French name furtherly reinforces it. We have to learn more about his mother, for sure.--The Traditionalist (talk) 03:42, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

People give their kids names, and sometimes, they just up and give them names from other cultures, I don't know, maybe because they like the sound of them. Maybe no one bothered to ask until you did just now, and now since their dead, we'll never know why Casimir Pierre Périer's parents gave him a Slavic first name. It happens. --Jayron32 07:02, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, it certainly meant something to the family, given that his son added it to the family name.--The Traditionalist (talk) 17:28, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

This site gives some of his ancestry, but nothing springs out as obviously English. Interestingly, his second wife was one Elizabeth Jane Gardner, who sounds like a typical English gel. William's mother opposed his remarrying after his first wife died in 1877, at least not till after she (his mother) had died herself, so as an obedient son he waited almost 20 years before making Elizabeth his spouse in 1896. (Personal note: I have long wanted to know the answer to the OP's question, as Bouguereau's Le ravissement de Psyché became my favourite painting from the moment I first laid eyes on it, but I have never come across any explanation for "William"). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:28, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I do not think that his wife being British is really relevant, even though it could signify an appreciation for this country by the whole family, but few people think like that. By the way, this painting is beautiful. I believe that Bouguereau was one of the greatest 19th century painters along with Ary Scheffer and pretty much everyone listed here.--The Traditionalist (talk) 17:28, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, William Bouguereau's grandfather was William Buggerall of East Norwich. When he was hired as Marie Antoinette's court milliner in 1789 he moved to Paris and changed his last name. μηδείς (talk) 16:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

"A Balagvatan"

I've recently aquired a reproduction of a 1626 map of Asia by John Speed. Around the edge of the map are illustrations of various peoples of the region, e.g. "A SVMATRAN", "A CHINEAN", "A IAVAN", "MOSCOVIAN". Despite the spelling, capitalization, and inconsistant use of the indefinite article, I can work out what all of the nations and ethinicities are - except one: "A BALAGVATAN". I've tried Googling both "Balagvatan" and "Balaguatan", with no success. (The former gives a single result for a map site with a link to a low-res picture of the map in question but no explanation of the word, while the latter gives what appears to be a foreign-language site that I can't access). Does anyone know what people this is supposed to be? (I'm guessing it might refer to Balaghat in India, but I can see the name on the map, and it seems unlikely that the cartographer would have included a nationality without including their actual place of origin). If it helps, there is a better image of the map here - the person in question is the man in the bottom left corner wearing the off-the-shoulder tunic and bangles around his wrists and ankles. Iapetus (talk) 15:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Given that the final -an is evidently the demonym suffix, we'd have to search for "Balagvat" or "Balaguat" for the placename. Several 18th and early 19th century sources [1][2][3] mention an Indian province of "Balagate", "Balaguat" or "Balaghat" whose capital was Aurangabad, Maharashtra. We don't seem to have a Wikipedia entry for that specific region (the present city of Balaghat seems to be a bit further east), but the Balaghat mountain range [4] is also somewhere in that area. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:16, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Funny hair color for an Indian. Contact Basemetal here 17:50, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The Javan's skin and hair don't look very accurate either, so I don't think that those offer reliable evidence about the peoples labeled. Probably the artist hadn't seen or didn't know how to draw non-Europeans. Marco polo (talk) 20:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I was in Bangladesh a couple of years ago, and a lot of men there seem to dye their hair (or just beards) ginger. I don't know how contemporary Bangladeshi fashions compare to 17th Century Central Indian ones, but it could be that Balaguatans did the same. (The most impressive hair-styling in the illustrations though has the be the Tartarian, with his enormous moustach and pigtails). Iapetus (talk) 12:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Dying one's beard with henna is specifically a Muslim custom in imitation of Muhammad. See Henna#History. Google "henna beard" (image search) for some examples. Also some discussion here. Contact Basemetal here 16:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the "blond"-looking things on the heads of these figures are even supposed to be hair, but rather some form of headdress, aren't they? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

You're certainly right for the Javan. It's a turban without any doubt. But as to the Balagvatan, even zooming in at 400% (in Chrome) it still looks like hair to me. @Wardog, since you own a hardcopy you could examine the Balagvatan with a magnifying glass and settle the question. Contact Basemetal here 18:30, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

PS: @Wardog, if you're gonna use a magnifying glass, could you check if that fellow has an upavītam (sacred thread) hanging from the left shoulder. That would indicate a Brahmin or possibly a Parsi. It's hard to tell because part of his dress is also hanging from the left shoulder. Contact Basemetal here 18:50, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure it is hair on his head, rather than a hat of some kind. I can't see any sign of a thread over his shoulder. Incidently, the colours in my version are somewhat different from the linked image. Most of the orangish colours (e.g. the Syrian woman's clothes, the Arabian's tunic, and the Balagutan's robe) are bluish or purplish, the Javan and Chinese clothes as browner, and the Moscovian is pale pink with white trim rather than red with orange trim. I'm guessing this is either do use a pigment error in the reproduction, or fading in the original it was coloured from, or possibly different versions of the originals being coloured in differently to begin with. Iapetus (talk) 11:32, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Could he be from Baluchistan? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:49, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Should the guy be from Afghanistan or thereabouts, the light hair colour (if it is his real hair colour, obviously, and not a pure fantasy portrait) would not be all that improbable. Blond hair is still found in some remote mountain regions, especially Nuristan, and fair eyes are even more widely spread in this part of the world – often suspected to be a heritage from the ancient Aryans (not to be confused with the Ancient Aliens), and a pointer to their European (though rather eastern than northern) origin. Scouring the web for images of people, particularly kids, from Afghanistan (especially Nuristani or Kalash) brings forth some surprising portraits. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I can't find Balaguat on the map, but I agree that somewhere in India sounds more likely; also, even if the person is supposed to be a Brahmin, and the hair colour roughly correct and natural (despite Wardog's arguments), I would still be surprised – in antiquity, apparently Brahmins could be blond, but in the 17th century? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

What ethnic group is the name "Ali Ag Wadossene" from?

Moved to the language desk

Store within a store

In the Store-within-a-store concept, who typically hires the staff? The actual store the store within a store is located in or the store within the store? 94.14.216.80 (talk) 17:48, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

If the "to be used by a different company to run another, independent store" part is true, that different independent company would do the hiring. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:36, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Yep, my WP:OR niece worked at a Starbucks inside a Target store. From her end, the Target was irrelevant - all hiring, managing, etc was through Starbucks. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

The only obvious need for coordination is that the inside store can't open before, or close after, the outside store, unless they have a separate entrance. In a sit-down restaurant, they also would need to allow people time to finish their meals before the outside store closes, so might need to have their last "sitting" an hour before that, or make special arrangements to keep one door open after closing time (typically with a guard posted to ensure people only leave via that door). StuRat (talk) 22:22, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Logically speaking, if the main store were doing the hiring, that would defeat the point of outsourcing the inner store. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:00, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Did Velázquez change his surname?

All Spanish people have two surnames: the maternal and the paternal. For example, Federico García Lorca, where García is the surname coming from his father and Lorca the one coming from his mother. Similarly, his father was Federico García Rodríguez and his mother was Vicenta Lorca Romero. Diego Velázquez′s full name was Diego Rodríguez de Silva Velázquez. It looks like he used his mother′s surname, which is not at all peculiar, as painters are certainly expected to have pseudonyms. His daughter, however, was called Francisca de Silva Velázquez Pacheco. Does this mean that he changed his surname, removing Rodríguez and adding Velázquez?--The Traditionalist (talk) 18:04, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

In our article, Spanish naming customs#Generational transmission, it says "Patrilineal surname transmission was not always the norm in Spanish speaking societies. Prior to the mid-eighteenth century,[citation needed] when the current paternal-maternal surname combination norm came into existence, Hispanophone societies often practised matrilineal surname transmission, giving children the maternal surname..." Maybe Velazquez' family was following this tradition. Rojomoke (talk) 22:31, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Aren't Portuguese naming customs still like that? I think Velazquez was Portuguese on his father's side (father born in Spain but both paternal grandparents Portuguese)? Contact Basemetal here 22:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Basemetal: No, in Portugal too the child takes both surnames but the maternal goes first (e.g., Federico Lorca García). The paternal is transmitted as usual.--The Traditionalist (talk) 23:05, 7 July 2015 (UTC)