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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for the United States/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 10:01, 25 November 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for the United States edit

List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for the United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Anthony (talk) 18:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because the similar Switzerland article recently passed. Sourced, thorough, the PR problems have been resolved. I believe this one is sufficient to pass standards now. Anthony (talk) 18:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Rejectwater (talk) 20:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Rejectwater
  • "Ref." in goaltender table should be "Ref(s)"
  • Most cells in the "Ref(s)" columns are empty. What are the sources for these individuals?
    • As all the statistics are pulled from the 2010 Media Guide, I thought references on each line would be unduly repetitive. So I only added specific refs for the notes (captains, HOF, etc.) Otherwise each ref is just going to go to a page in the media guide which is linked under References. If that's what the standards require I'll do it, but as I said, it's all being pulled from the same source. Anthony (talk) 14:56, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • My understanding is that WP:V requires inline citations. What if you just put up what I call a "global" citation at the header of each table, in the caption text for instance? That way the citations would be there, but only one per table. Rejectwater (talk) 21:07, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Added a ref to the caption at the top of each table. Hopefully this suffices. Anthony (talk) 13:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image in the lead has no alt text.
  • Images are mostly of recent players. Anything out there of some of the older teams, like 1920 for instance? Regards, Rejectwater (talk) 21:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added that image, because I didn't know it existed. I'd love to add pictures of older players, if there were any. Unfortunately, as they were all amateurs prior to 1998, it's difficult to find free images. So I work with what I have. Anthony (talk) 14:56, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Comments from Rejectwater

  • Sorting doesn't work quite right in the skaters table due to some skaters having an en dash in the assists column. Replace the en dashes in these cells with {{sort dash}} to correct this.
  • En dash (does not apply) isn't in the key.
  • Some sort of explanation as to why some skaters have en dash in the assists column, a note explaining assists were not recorded at the time, or whatever the reason, should be added. I think at the top of the column next to the "A" would work well. Rejectwater (talk) 18:33, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Well written, well sourced, comprehensive. I believe it meets all the criteria. Rejectwater (talk) 20:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • For the Miracle on Ice game, the score needs an en dash.
  • The em dashes in the last paragraph should be unspaced, per the MoS.
  • In the 1980 team photo, "Flame" probably shouldn't be capitalized. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Quick comment
  • The "Tournaments" column sorts differently for netminders (where is sorts as "Olympics") and the skaters (where it sorts exclusively by year). I vastly prefer the way it sorts for the skaters. Harrias talk 21:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I just noticed that myself. I have no idea why it does that or how to fix it, as it appears the tables are formatted exactly the same. I prefer the way it sorts for skaters too, but I don't know what to do to get the goalies to sort the same way. Any help? Anthony (talk) 11:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I was looking at the code also and came to the same conclusion. I applied a fix to the goaltenders table using the {{sort}} function, just for the three goalies that have appeared in multiple tournaments. Why it worked one way on one table and another on another is beyond me. Rejectwater (talk) 11:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 10:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from SaskatchewanSenator
  • No link to the United States men's national ice hockey team?
    • Added link in lead.
  • The material about Canada in 1972 and 1976 doesn't seem relevant.
    • It's relevant to the discussion about the integration of professionals in the Olympics - without Canada's boycott, the IIHF never would've allowed the NHL to play.
  1. If that's the case, it should be stated rather than implied.
  2. I don't think the boycott influenced the IOC's decision. It was 10 years after the last boycott that they changed the rules to allow professionals.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 07:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That paragraph appears in the Canada and Switzerland articles, both of whom passed FLC. The rationale was the same there as it is here: to provide historical perspective. And the IIHF moves at a glacial pace, so it's not surprising it took 10 years. I can pare it down, but the information is still important and should be included, at least IMHO. Anthony (talk) 13:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a reference for that opinion about the IIHF?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 08:42, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My comment was intended as a casual observation, not a declarative statement. I don't need a source for an opinion on a talk page... Anthony (talk) 14:05, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the information is relevant, however it does come across as Canada specific. Maybe something more like "The Olympic Games were originally intended for amateur athletes, so the players of the National Hockey League (NHL) and other professional leagues were not allowed to compete. In 1986, the IOC voted to allow all athletes to compete in Olympic Games, starting in 1988, following a boycott of the 1972 and 1976 games by Canada. Many of Canada's top players were professional, so the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association (CAHA) had pushed for the ability to use professional and amateur players." Rejectwater (talk) 22:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I made edits to the lead - hopefully it comes across as less Canadian-centric than before. Anthony (talk) 23:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The new sentence "The move was spurred on by Canada's boycott ..." is not supported by the two references cited. I don't think that is a widely held view.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now it says "The move followed Canada's boycott..." which is a factually correct statement. Anthony (talk) 15:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's still a problem. That's WP:SYNTHESIS. You can't make that implication unless a reliable source has.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(Bringing it back a bit). It's not a problem. The boycotts were in '72 and '76, and the vote was in '86. Chronologically, the vote took place after the boycotts. It's a factually correct statement, made clearly and without any other blatant implications. Anthony (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read WP:SYNTH? It applies to combining these facts in that paragraph.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have ready SYNTH, and I failed to see a violation. However, as I do not want this nomination hung up any longer, I've removed the sentence about Canada entirely from the paragraph. Hope this satisfies you. Anthony (talk) 23:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try a more NPOV than "Unfortunately, the next several years were not successful ..."
    • Pretty sure it's resolved now, more NPOV. Anthony (talk) 15:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise it looks good.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 07:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Excellent notes. --SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 10:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from SchroCat (talk) 16:21, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
#There is inconsistent dating format in the "Notes" section. - some are formatted as "February 28, 2010. Retrieved September 30, 2013", others as "2009-03-30. Retrieved September 30, 2013". You should aim for consistency throughout.
    1. Fixed.
  2. The "Notes" section is ill-named and confused, in that it largely contains "footnotes" and "notes": "Notes" 22, 28 30, and 32–41 are notes: the rest are footnotes. I suggest splitting these out into two separate sections, named as such.
    1. Fixed.
  3. The current "References" section contains six entries: three of them are not used and should not really be there.
    1. Removed two that admittedly were not used, but the other four definitely are. Anthony (talk) 03:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- SchroCat (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for picking up on these so quickly. Just a couple of other small points

Footnotes

  • FNs 6 & 7 are from an unreliable source—see WP:RS/IMDB. Google books may be able to help out with a more reliable entry
    • Fixed.
  • FN 9: do you have a page number for this? Not a problem if not, but it is preferred
    • No, I took the reference from the Canada article, which didn't have it, and I don't have access to the archives to check.
  • The Podnieks and Szemberg book: do you have a location for the publisher, which should also be in there?

Thanks - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All good: many thanks for polishing those bits off. - SchroCat (talk) 16:21, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Resolute 20:54, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments from Resolute
  • " After sitting out the 1928 tournament, in 1932 they sent a team made up almost entirely of players attending college in the US." - reads awkwardly. Perhaps: "After sitting out the 1928 tournament, they returned in 1932 with a team made up entirely of players attending college in the US."?
    • Fixed.
  • "The early American teams were successful, winning three silvers..." - "The early American teams were successful, winning three silver medals..."
    • Fixed.
  • Something tells me the AHA was not expelled "despite" Olympic rules mandating amateur players only. Specify that they were expelled for refusing to accept the players.
    • Fixed.
  • There is an incongruity in the joined statements that the US did not do well and that they won silver in 1972.
    • Fixed.
  • I'd probably split that giant second paragraph in two, starting the second with "In 1960..."
    • Fixed.
  • Question on the reserve goaltenders: I may be wrong, but I think Olympic rules require that a player has to actually participate in a game to qualify for a medal. If so, the notations that the reserves won medals should probably be removed.
    • Incorrect. All members of the team receive medals. Janaszak and Quick definitely got their medals, so I'd assume everyone did. Anthony (talk) 18:07, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, nothing all that significant. Just some small questions. Cheers, Resolute 23:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. Nice list! Resolute 20:54, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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