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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sonic the Hedgehog Spinball/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 22:26, 17 November 2017 [1].

Sonic the Hedgehog Spinball edit

Nominator(s): JAGUAR  15:00, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not so much to say about this one. This article is nice and compact which reflects well on a lacklustre and rushed game. I've used the most out of the hard to find magazine sources (some of which I spent longer tracking down as opposed to writing itself), as well as more contemporary respective reviews. I think that this article is polished enough—and while you might know me for going over the top with reception sections—I managed to squeeze out all of the reliable reviewers I could find. A couple of scans which are available online aren't listed at WP:VG/S, so I omitted them (can't speak German either). It looks like that this is going to be a no-frills FAC while I have some more exciting stuff in the pipeline. JAGUAR  15:00, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aoba47
  • I would imagine that the infobox image requires ALT text. I would also recommend adding ALT text for all of the images used in the article.
  • I keep forgetting to do this! Added alt text for both. JAGUAR  10:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a reason for the reference to the original EU release date for the Sega Genesis in the infobox? It just seems odd to have only one reference, and I would think that this would be covered in the body of the article.
  • I anticipated that someone would ask for the release dates to be sourced (personally I wouldn't bother sourcing them, but if someone asks I'll do it). While I was reading one of the old magazines yesterday I saw the official release date for Europe in there. I've added sources for all of the dates in the infobox with the exception of the Japanese one as unfortunately I can't find it. I don't think I could mention them in the prose... JAGUAR  10:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (Unlike most other Sonic games), I would recommend linking “Sonic games” to the main article on the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise as I do not see a link to the main franchise page prior to this (unless I am missing it).
  • You're right. I've added a link. JAGUAR  10:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The final sentence of the lead’s first paragraph and the first sentence of the lead’s second paragraph both have a similar sentence construction (i.e. “is set in”). I would recommend revising this.
  • I am not entirely sure what is meant by “pinball-like environments”. Environments that resemble a pinball? Do you mean environments reminiscent of those used in pinball tables?
  • I've rephrased it to "pinball machine-like environments" to avoid confusing between an actual ball and the pinball machine. Hope this sounds better. JAGUAR  10:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this sentence (Various aspects of gameplay garnered a mixed reception from critics, with the game's control scheme receiving particular criticism), reference 32 needs to be put in front of reference 33.

Great work with this article. Once my comments are addressed, I will support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 01:37, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoba47: thank you for looking at this! I should have hopefully addressed your concerns. Unfortunately I couldn't find a couple of release dates. I'll see if I can dig deeper in some of the obscure magazine scans but it's not something not worry about. The Master System port itself is so obscure I couldn't even find any reviews for it! JAGUAR  10:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for addressing my comments and for the explanation on the release dates. That makes sense to me. I support this for promotion. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Aoba47 (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from TheJoebro64
  • Perfect! Thanks. Added. JAGUAR  20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • My Russian counterpart has an enviable skill for tracking down obscure sources. I remember the Russian version of Nights into Dreams helped me gather enough sources to turn it into an FA, and by coincidence the same author and I were bringing Nights: Journey of Dreams to FA at the same time. Anyway, on a more serious note the Russian Wikipedia does seem to have different standards than ours; they frequently cite unreliable sources. The Green Hill Zone is unreliable and I don't think I can attribute a source for the Sonic comic. I remember scanning the Russian article a few months ago and decided there wasn't anything else to add. To make up for this I've expanded the legacy section a bit by mentioning more of Alton Towers' rollercoaster. JAGUAR  20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Makes sense. About the comic adaptation though, I've used cite journal to source this same thing on Sonic Colors and it works fine.
  • Was the iOS version a full port, or was it just emulated? As far as I know, most Sega mobile ports until 2013 were basically just crappy emulations.
  • It was just emulated. I've hopefully clarified this in the text. JAGUAR  20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fotenote 42, TSSZ News, is a Sonic fansite and not a Wikipedia-approved RS.
  • I didn't know it was a fansite. I've replaced it with a much better Destructoid article. JAGUAR  20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree with italicising websites and organisations (arguably IGN's format should be treated the same as CBS or BBC), but I've italicised Eurogamer and GameSpot since they're more like publications. JAGUAR  20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome work on this, Jaguar. Very close to supporting. JOEBRO64 19:33, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@TheJoebro64: thanks for looking through this—appreciate it! I should have hopefully clarified all of the above. I couldn't find anything else from the Russian article worth mentioning as I'm also not sure if I can source a comic directly. I've never done anything like that before and am uncertain if it'll pass FA standards. JAGUAR  20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to lend my support now. I think this is certainly an interesting article about a mediocre pinball game. Also, it might be worth mentioning that the game was supposed to be in Sonic Classic Collection. JOEBRO64 20:22, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that's interesting. I've added it. JAGUAR  20:30, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (Harry Mitchell)

  • I wonder if a photo of the console might be helpful? It might help clarify concepts like "direction pad" for the uninitiated
  • I've added a picture of the console in the release section. The image doesn't come with a controller so I've linked D-pad in the prose for clarification. JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • newly-accessible No hyphen after -ly adverbs.
  • depicted as regular pinball machines with Sonic at the controls you mean they show Sonic playing a pinball machine? If that's what you mean, just say that rather than over-complicating it. And use "show" rather than "depict"—I'd let you off if we were talking about a painting, but as a general rule, use everyday words except when you need to vary the prose.
  • Rephrased to These rounds are shown as Sonic playing a regular pinball machine. Unfortunately I have a bad habit of over-complicating things sometimes! JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the tilt shake is used too often, however, the flippers will lock You can probably guess what I'm going to say! ;)
  • I've tried rephrasing this slightly—hopefully it's clearer? JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • and a ball will be lost Can you explain very concisely what the consequence of that is?
  • As with the previous sentence, I've clarified this by saying that the ball will have no choice but to fall down the drain. JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 1992 holiday season saw the success Try to avoid time periods "seeing" something
  • Rephrased. JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • upcoming holiday season and therefore decided [...] during the 1993 holiday season Redundancy. Also, you could lose that "therefore" without any real loss, or replace it with "thus" or something less ... pretentious.
  • I've removed one of the duplicate "holiday seasons" and replaced "therefore" with "thus". Not sure if it would have sounded better being removed altogether! Not sure but I think "holiday season" is used more in the US and Canada. Personally I would prefer "Christmas season"... JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • who gave the project a green-light. Do we need to say "green light"? Can we not use plain English like "approve"? Also, just for reference, you only need the hyphen if you're using it as a compound adjective.
  • Thanks, replaced with "approval". I'm definitely getting better with my hyphens! JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • due to the fact that I'm pretty sure I mentioned that phrase in your last FAC; it's an abomination!
  • Removed. Will definitely try to avoid these phrases in the future... JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • He did, however, regret → nonetheless
  • garnered a mixed reception from critics, with the game's control scheme receiving particular criticism First, don't use with a connective like that; second, "particular criticism" is jarring next to "mixed reception"
  • I've removed the connective "with" and rephrased this to Various aspects of gameplay garnered a mixed reception from critics, though the game's control scheme received the most criticism. I hope this sounds better? JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • a spinning rollercoaster of the same name The last name mentioned here was Sonic Pinball Party
  • Oops. I've added the actual name of the rollercoaster here. JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

—Overall, good work. I looked mainly at the prose, which generally flows nicely. I made a few copy edits, but there's a lot less to do here than there was on Nights. There's nothing above that should be too vexing to address, and I expect I'll support once it's addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: thank you very much for looking through this! Really appreciate the copyedits too. I've hopefully addressed all of your concerns; I had to think carefully on how to rephrase a couple of those sentences. I'm still learning on how to avoid tired phrases like "due to the fact that" and the overuse of "with", but practice makes perfect. A nice little article overall—I'm glad it's going smoother than Nights! JAGUAR  16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Practice does indeed make perfect (and if you ever wonder why I highlight something trivial like a hyphen rather than just fixing it myself, it's because you're more likely to remember it and take that memory to your next FAC). I used to overuse "with" but had that beaten out of me at FAC! Anyway, I'm satisfied, so support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:43, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again! I'm glad to say that I'm slowly but surely breaking my bad habit of over-complicating things. JAGUAR  09:47, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Panagiotis Zois edit

The article uses three images:

  • File:Sonic Spinball Box.jpeg - Cover of the video game used in the infobox. Has a fair-use rationale and is low resolution.
  • File:Sonic Spinball Mega Drive Screenshot.png - Screenshot taken from the game. Used in the "Gameplay" section to illustrate, well, the gameplay. Image has a fair-use rationale.
  • File:Sega Mega Drive PAL.jpg - Image is licenced under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported licence. Used appropriately to show the original platform the game was released in, in the "Release" sub-section.

All three images are appropriately used in the article and the copyrighted ones have fair-use rationales. It's a pass. PanagiotisZois (talk) 14:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for checking. Glad everything is in order. JAGUAR  14:17, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I vaguely remember playing this game (probably rented from a video rental store), and finding it to be lacklustre. The article is admirably comprehensive, but its prose currently falls short of FA standards as it is at times over-complex or imprecise. I'd like to highlight the following examples, but a general copy edit along these lines would be helpful:

  • "Unlike most other Sonic games, it based on in the universe of the Saturday morning Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon" - there's a word missing here, and the construction of this sentence is confusing. Could it be restated as something like "It is one of the few Sonic games to be based on the universe of the Saturday morning Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon"?
  • Thanks, rephrased. I also dug into some research and discovered that the game is set in the universe of the Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon, so I corrected the name. JAGUAR  14:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, this statement isn't referenced or discussed in the article, which states that the game was based on a level of Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Please clarify this.
  • I've added a sentence mentioning the game's setting in the cartoon's universe in the release subsection. Since I could only find one source backing this up I would be open to removing it altogether. The game's pinball theme was inspired from the level in Sonic 2, whereas the setting and character visuals are more akin to the cartoon. JAGUAR  14:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The way this has been added - with the statement being placed in a separate section from that saying its actually based on the earlier game is confusing. Nick-D (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • On second thought I've now removed both mentions of the game being based on the cartoon. The fact that the only vague mention of it being in a French source seems to suggest that it isn't notable in itself. I tried looking again for more mentions but found nothing. Another Sonic spin-off which was released in the same year as this game was actually based in the universe of that cartoon, but I don't see how it applies for Sonic Spinball. JAGUAR  10:58, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game was hastily designed amid extreme time constraints and was developed in a total of 61 days" - could also be simplified (Eg, "The game was hastily developed, with most work taking place over 61 days").
  • Thanks, simplified. JAGUAR  14:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The goal of each level is to collect all of the Chaos Emeralds that serve to stabilize the volcano and subsequently defeat the newly accessible boss located at the top of the level." - this is the first time a Volcano is mentioned
  • I've removed the part about the volcano as it is unimportant to the gameplay. I think "collecting Chaos Emeralds" (which is always the main theme in the series) still makes sense. JAGUAR  14:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chaos emeralds is now over-linked Nick-D (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Some Chaos Emeralds are blocked off by obstacles that require Sonic to hit certain switches or bumpers in order to create a clear path to the Chaos Emerald." - don't need to say 'Chaos Emerald' twice in the same sentence
  • It would be better to place the 'plot' section before the 'gameplay' section - this would help readers to understand the terminology
  • " Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was met with success during the 1992 holiday season, crediting with boosting sales of the Sega Genesis" - wordy and awkward (with the tense changing)
  • Rephrased to Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was credited with boosting sales of the Sega Genesis in the 1992 holiday season.
  • "According to Peter Morawiec, the game's designer, Sega's research team suggested that the "Casino Night Zone" of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was among the most popular levels in the game, thus providing the general direction of the upcoming game." - also over-complex (and might work better as two sentences)
  • Split into two sentences. JAGUAR  14:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Morwiec, along with the rest of the team, also recognized the possible effects that a failure to capitalize on the new-found popularity of Sonic the Hedgehog had in North America would have on Sega, in the event that the game would not be well received" - also over-complex Nick-D (talk) 22:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tried to simplify. JAGUAR  14:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This wording is still confusing. Re-phasing it (and the rest of the article) in the active voice would help. Nick-D (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've tried to streamline this (along with much of the development section) into the active voice. I found it difficult to do so due to the fact that it's based on retrospective interviews. JAGUAR  10:58, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments, Nick-D! I should have hopefully addressed everything. I'm already taking steps to ensure that I don't over-complicate phrases in the future articles that I'll write. JAGUAR  14:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The changes generally look good, but as noted above I think that there's further scope to streamline with wording, especially by avoiding using passive voice. Nick-D (talk) 10:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, as noted in this edit, the material on the theme tune is confusing: did the development team or Hirokazu Yasuhara realise there was a rights problem? (do any sources also note why Sega didn't simply buy the rights for the song for this game?) Nick-D (talk) 10:27, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nick-D: thanks for checking up. I've rephrased this slightly. The team were oblivious of this right up prior to launch—Hirokazu Yasuhara actually informed Moreweic of the rights issue during a casual conversation. I couldn't find out why Sega didn't buy out the rights for the theme tune, but I discovered that Dreams Come True still retains ownership, and it wasn't until 2011 when the official soundtrack was released on CD. I couldn't find anything relevant to this game, however. JAGUAR  10:58, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Those changes look good, but there's still some more awkward wording:

  • "The development team understood that the game would have to be completed in under a year to be ready in time for the 1993 holiday season—a schedule Morawiec considered "tight" for a game which needed a pre-requisite level of quality." - wordy, and what 'pre-requisite' means here isn't clear (I presume it means that the game had to be good to avoid damaging the reputation of this series)
  • "The team also recognized the effects of failing to capitalize on the new-found popularity of Sonic the Hedgehog in North America, if the game was not be well received." - repetitive and also over-long
  • "Morawiec recalled that this caused "quite a fiasco" when Hirokazu Yasuhara, the lead designer on Sonic Team, explained that the theme tune was owned by Japanese band Dreams Come True, and that a new one would have to be composed before the game could be released." - over complex, and "caused "quite a fiasco" when..." is confusing. Rephrasing this as two sentences might help. For consideration, I've also copy edited the article further, mainly with an eye to simplifying the phrasing a bit. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nick-D: I've attempted to simplify all of the above. I was stuck on how to do this without cutting too much content, but I merged the first two sentences from the development's second paragraph so it now reads The development team knew that the game would have to be completed in under a year to be ready in time for the 1993 holiday season—a schedule Morawiec considered "tight" for a game which needed to capitalize on the series' new-found popularity in North America. I hope this isn't too confusing? Hopefully compacting these two sentences cuts down repetition. I also split the sentence you mentioned about the game's music into two and condensed it a bit, replacing "quite a fiasco" with "caused an uproar". Thank you for the copyedits. JAGUAR  13:27, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support These changes look good, and I'm pleased to now support this nomination. Sorry for my slow response to the above - I've been travelling for most of the last week. Nick-D (talk) 04:19, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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