Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Princess Maria Amélia of Brazil/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:20, 16 April 2011 [1].

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Princess Maria Amélia of Brazil

Princess Maria Amélia of Brazil (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Princess Maria Amélia of Brazil/archive1

Nominator(s): • Astynax ^talk

We are nominating this for featured article not only because it's very well written and sourced, but also due to its interesting subject. Although a minor historical character in both Brazil and Portugal, the Princess had a far more important role (even if in death) in Mexico, a country she never saw. The article follows the same standard already seen in other Brazilian history-related Featured Articles such as Pedro II of Brazil and Teresa Cristina of the Two Sicilies. Regards, -- Lecen (talk) 19:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

• A well-written and interesting article about a lesser known figure. I made a few minor corrections to it, but feel free to revert them back if you disagree with them. Just curious, but why did the Brazilian government refuse to recognize Maria Amélia and her mother as members of the royal family? Was it a financial issue? Anyways, keep up the good work you two! Ruby2010 talk 20:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Because she was born in France, not Brazil. Do you believe we should add it to the article? --Lecen (talk) 20:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

No, by all means, keep it in the article. I think it's really interesting. But perhaps you could make it a little more clear that the Brazilian government's reasoning was because they were born (and lived) in France, and thus were not really Brazilian. Thanks, Ruby2010 talk 21:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Although born in France, she was not French. She was a Brazilian citizen. The Brazilian Constitution allowed someone to be declared a Brazilian citizen even if born in a foreign country as long as his/her parent was a Brazilian. That's why her father asked for witnesses (including the Brazilian diplomatic envoy to Paris) to see her birth. I might have missed the point, but are you giving your support to the article? --Lecen (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support Yes, the article has my whole hearted support. I was just curious about the subject. Good work, Ruby2010 talk 20:47, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
• Shouldn't "Dona" be "Doña"? Locke'sGhost 12:37, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

She was a Brazilian, and thus spoke Portuguese, which spells the word as "Dona". "Doña" is Spanish. There is even a note which explains that in the article. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 12:43, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks, I see now. Also, "Told him, that if something of good he had done.." please check grammar. Locke'sGhost 12:54, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

That's how is written. I know, it's confusing, since it's not clear from the start that that "he" is Maximilian. I added his name to make it easier. I hope it helps. --Lecen (talk) 13:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

A very well-written and highly readable article. Nice job, Lecen.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:43, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Sources comments: The sources and citations look OK, but as they are nearly all in Portuguese I can't do much more than check the formats. A few concerns:-

• Over two-thirds of the citations are to a single source. This is a high proportion, and could mean over-reliance and lack of balance.
• Endnote B: "The information given is about Emperor Pedro II of Brazil, Maria Amélia's elder half-brother but can be applied to her". What is the authority for this statement about Maria Amelia's ancestry? The source is a genealogy table that doesn't mention her.
• Minor nitpick: Page ranges require ndashes not hyphens. See 24.

Not able to do any spotchecking beyond the single page of Barman that I found online. Brianboulton (talk) 00:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's the only biography ever written about her. I tried to use other sources too as you can see. The lack of balance could be something to take in account if subject had somekind of true importance in history, that somehow could cause controversy between historians. In the case of the Princess, who did nothing of notable in her life, I can see no reason that the few sources used could be an issue. The genealogy issue is simple: if Pedro I was the father of both Pedro II and Maria Amélia, his ancestors are the same for both children. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 01:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S.: I added an English-written source. You should take a look in it, there is a link to it online version. Read pages 106-107, its practically a summary of the entire article. And again: it's in English, so you can be sure that at least historians agree in what happened. --Lecen (talk) 02:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I am not making too much of the Almeida issue, as long as you have ensured that other sources, such as they are, have been consulted and are reflected in the article. The online version of the Barman book contains only extracts, and these do not at present include pp. 106–07, or any of the pages you cite apart from p. 8 (that's not your fault, obviously). As regards endnote B, the genealogies of half-siblings are not identical. I recommend that the note be changed to something like: "The information confirms the genealogy of Maria Amelia's father, King Pedro I". Brianboulton (talk) 15:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Barman's books. But James McMurtry Longo's Isabel Orleans-Bragança: The Brazilian Princess Who Freed the Slaves (ISBN 978-0-7864-3201-1). I asked you to look on pages 106-107 of Longo's book, not Barman's. --Lecen (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

• Wow I'm surprised at how much you did on this article. I remember when I first edited on this page it only had three sentences! It's quite well written and not a jumble of genealogical and trivial mess like most articles on lesser royals. Is there any info on Maria and her sister Queen Maria II's relationship?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 03:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Not so much. They were close and very friendly to each other. Maria II suffered a lot the death of her younger sister, but she would die just a few months after Maria Amélia. --Lecen (talk) 03:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Disambig/External Link check - no dabs or dead external links. --PresN 00:31, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Quick comment Half the images have forced image sizes, and the rest I would recommend where 'upright'. Right now, the layout looks rather messy because of this. Forcing images without good reason can create accessibility problems, per WP:IMGSIZE (which is policy). Arsenikk ^(talk) 21:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• Here is an image copyright check from Stifle.
  • File:Maximiliaan van Oostenrijk.png has no proper source.
• Oppose pending resolution of the above. Stifle (talk) 09:12, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

  Done. I've fixed the picture's issue. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 11:17, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

  Sorry, but the image description page still doesn't state its source. It says it's a cleaned-up version of a redlink. Stifle (talk) 15:02, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you looking at this picture? It has a source in it: [2]. --Lecen (talk) 15:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I am referring to File:Maximiliaan van Oostenrijk.png, which does not have a source. It says it is a cleaned up version of itself. This is still not fixed. Stifle (talk) 11:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

This picture that you're talking about is not being used in this article. This is the one being used and it has a proper source and all the other information necessary. --Lecen (talk) 12:09, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, sorry for the confusion. Stifle (talk) 16:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support: A very good article, as the major part of articles about royals and nobles are stubs with only genealogical information. This one is clear, well-written and gives a lot of information about Princess Amelia's life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paliano (talk • contribs) 16:55, February 27, 2011

Resolved comments from Apterygial

Comments. A very good article about a subject I know little about. Some minor points: The lead seems quite long for an article of this size; since much of the final paragraph does not directly concern her, is it necessary to have in the lead? "Only when Pedro II was declared of age in 1840, was she was officially recognized as a Brazilian princess." The comma is redundant. "She was the only daughter of Dom Pedro, the Duke of Braganza, and his second wife Amélie of Leuchtenberg (known in Brazil as Dona Amélia)." (needs the comma after "the Duke of Braganza"). Would "Y[our]. I[mperial]. M[ajesty]" flow better as "Y.I.M. [Your Imperial Majesty]"? Can the reason for the Brazilian government's refusal to recognise Maria Amélia as a Brazilian princess be added to the article when it is mentioned at the bottom of Brazilian princess? "...paid a visit to Amélie and Maria Amélia." Perhaps "visited Amélie and Maria Amélia." "Archduke Maximilian never forgot his deceased fiancée." This seems slightly forced; why would he forget her? The quote below says enough about his feelings. Perhaps combine with the next sentence to read something like "In 1859, already married to Charlotte of Belgium, Archduke Maximilian made a pilgrimage to locations that were somehow connected to Maria Amélia." The "somehow" here is redundant. Endnote I needs a reference for the final sentence. I'll be happy to support once they are addressed. Apterygial 04:21, 5 March 2011 (UTC) Reply: I've condensed the lead somewhat, and implemented most of your suggestions. I have asked Lecen to comment on whether a source gives a reason that the government refused to recognize her as part of the ruling house—I suspect that it had to do with the influence that would give her mother (stepmother to the Brazilian emperor and heirs-apparent) but don't have a reference for that at hand. • Astynax talk 09:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC) A few more points (some of which resulted from the changes made due to my above comments): The use of "premature death" concerns me slightly; it seems like an opinion and raises the question of when a death can be deemed "mature". "She was not officially recognized as a Brazilian princess until after Pedro II was declared of age in 1840. Even so, she never traveled to Brazil during her lifetime." The second part here worked better before, suggest removing the "Even so" and connected the sentences with a semi-colon: "...declared of age in 1840; she never traveled..." "Archduke Maximilian was haunted by memories of his fiancée." This really shouldn't be here unless it is a direct quote from your source. Otherwise, Maximilian's quote below it alone is evidence enough for his obsession. "The death of Maria Amélia created the need to relieve his "troubled soul" that resulted in Maximilian's tour of places associated with the princess." This would perhaps flow better as "The death of Maria Amélia created the need to relieve his "troubled soul", resulting in his tour of places associated with the princess." Sources in English do not need the "language=" parameter. Apterygial 23:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC) Reply: A bit of additional explanation of the government's reason for denying membership in Brazil's Imperial Family has been added, with thanks to Lecen for tracking down the reference. I've removed the use of "premature" with reference to Maria Amélia's father, though it was unexpected. However, for Maria Amélia the term seems appropriate, as her death was both at a young age and unexpected (due to the rapidity of her decline). The word "haunted" is used to describe Maximilian in the source, and poor Carlota was painfully aware of it. I've attempted to accomodate the other points in your comments. • Astynax talk 10:23, 8 March 2011 (UTC) If "haunted" is in the source (which I believe is in English) then it should be in quotation marks. I also made a minor correction for flow. Apterygial 23:11, 9 March 2011 (UTC) Not really. Here's the original text taken from Haslip, Joan. The Crown of Mexico: Maximilian and His Empress Carlota. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1971 (531 pages). ISBN: 0030865727: "The mild climate of Madeira from which the girl's mother had hoped so much had proved detrimental to her health. Galloping consumption had set in and Maria Amalia [Maria Amélia] was dead within weeks of her arrival. Her young lover was heartbroken. In some strange fashion, this twenty-year-old girl he had known for little more than a week was to haunt him all his life. Fragile and unattainable, she remained present in his dreams. Seven years later, when revisiting Madeira with a young and pretty wife, we find Maximilian paying a solitary visit to Maria Amalia's grave, 'lingering in grief and sadness by the house from which this lovely angel winged her flight to Heaven'." (pp.54-55) Also: "From Gibraltar, the Elizabeth proceeded to Madeira and Maximilian had no sooner sighted the island than he realized it was a mistake to revisit a place where he had been so happy in the past. 'It was with a feeling of sadness that I again beheld the valley of Machico and lovely Santa Cruz, where we spent such happy hours seven years ago. On board our large ship, so filled with people, I was the solitary pilgrim of former days... Since those times, seven years full of pain and joy, full of fortune's storms with a few of its blessings, have passed over my head, and a sadness comes over me when I compare that time with the present.' Where was Charlotte when he wrote those lines? Where was Charlotte when he went off with his physician to visit the hospital built by the widowed Empress of Brazil? A slab of black marble inscribed in gold lettering, recorded that the hospital was dedicated to the memory of the Empress's only daughter, Maria Amalia, who died of consumption on the house next door, where Maximilian now went in pilgrimage, 'to linger in grief and sadness in the shade of an Indian fig tree and pick a bunch of flowers to place on her grave'. A loving and devoted wife, in all the bloom of her nineteen years, had not succeeded in making him forget the blonde and fragile Braganza Princess he had courted under a summer moon seven years before." (pp.128-129) --Lecen (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC) Alright. But I think the sentence would be better if you could quote "haunt" in some way, rather than using the conjugation "haunted" (which you can't quote). As I've said above, Maximilian's quote below it alone is evidence enough for his obsession. However, I've struck my comment. Apterygial 00:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support: I have no outstanding concerns. Apterygial 00:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Neutral Nikkimaria (talk) 13:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC) *Weak oppose - sorry to put a damper on this FAC, but I think the article is in need of serious copy-editing for clarity, tone and flow.

• Multiple examples of awkward phrasings, excessive wordiness, etc
• A few grammatical errors, particularly relating to the use of commas
• Missing bibliographic information for Laemmert 1853 (current ref 51)
• Laemmert 1847 is not cited
• Some inconsistencies in references: doubled periods, inconsistent naming (José Olympio vs J. Olympio)
• It appears the two Laemmert sources were self-published - can you justify their use in regards to WP:SPS? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:44, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Reply: I'm sorry you feel you must oppose, but thank you for the comments. The 1847 edition of Laemmert should have been changed when it was changed in the text. Periods are added by the cite template and the extras have been removed. Both references to Olympio now refer to "José Olympio" (though it can be abbreviated). The brothers Laemmert were pioneers in Brazilian publishing, and their almanac is considered Brazil's first. According to the Portuguese wiki article on the almanac, it is considered a "fundamental source for understanding daily Brazilian life during the last century". A simple search of Google Books and Google Scholar should provide you with evidence that Laemmert almanacs are widely utilized and cited by historians. • Astynax ^talk 08:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, most of the citation issues have been dealt with (I'm still not entirely comfortable with the use of Laemmert, but I'll accept your explanation). Prose, however, is still not high enough in quality for me to support at this time. Would it be possible for you to get a third party to copy-edit the article? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:42, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

What's the problem about the Laemmert almanak? Edward Laemmet was a Knight of the Brazilian Order of the Rose and of the Portuguese Order of Christ (Portugal) as well as a member of the Brazilian Historic and Geographic Institute (See here). All editions of the almanak can be found online at Center for Research Libraries. --Lecen (talk) 14:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Some examples of issues with prose:

• "The Princess grew into an attractive and intelligent woman, was well-educated, and accomplished at drawing, painting, and the piano" - phrasing is awkward
• "The couple fell deeply in love with each other, but the marriage never occurred due to her premature death" - excessive wordiness
• "Neither of them ever traveled to Brazil, and Amélie unsuccessfully petitioned the Brazilian government to recognize mother and daughter as part of Brazil's Imperial Family and entitled to an income" - grammar; either split into two sentences or better relate the two parts
• "A very industrious individual, one of the main forces that apparently motivated Maria Amélia's dedication to her education, was her father" - unclear

These are examples from a quick glance; please thoroughly go over the text to fix other instances of these problems. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Important: I have requested several times, through the user talk page and FAC nomination talk page, for Nikkimaria to clarify what exactly is wrong in the text but the editor has declined to compel. Thus, the nominators warn that they have done their best to satisfy the reviewer and were unnable to change her opinion about the article due to the lack of better explaining. --Lecen (talk) 19:24, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

First off, just letting you know that I am in fact female and would prefer to be addressed as such. Second, I moved to neutral due to improvements made in the article, but still feel that the prose could be further improved, as I mentioned on the FAC talk you refer to. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:08, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I ask forgiveness for the gender confusion. However, after you changed your vote for neutral, I requested you to point out where the prose could be corrected but you opted to ignore my remarks. Thus, I felt obliged to explain in here that I tried all I could to improve the article and change your vote for "support" but was unnable to. --Lecen (talk) 20:51, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Gyrobo

Copyedit "However, Pedro I's unanticipated death from tuberculosis occurred only months after the victory." could be rephrased as "However, Pedro I unexpectedly died from tuberculosis only months after the victory." Does the "however" even serve a purpose here? This sentence seems like it would be better connected to the following paragraph, and you may want to link tuberculosis. "...the construction of an hospital..." should be "a" hospital. "She was christened..." maybe link to Infant baptism? "Maria II had succeeded him as Queen of Portugal..." implies that he was Queen of Portugal. Perhaps "succeeded him as monarch by becoming" or something similar. "...one of the leading figures during Brazil's independence and who was then serving..." doesn't need "and". Godparent could use a link. "...and sent a letter dated 4 December to his other children..." you may want to put "4 December" in quotes. "...telling the news..." might read better as "with the message". "...I never saw him [Pedro] so happy and pleased..." if you're adding Pedro to the quote, you can leave out the "him". "...and later, in the Royal Palace of Queluz—located near Lisbon" does this really need a dash here? It seems like it could be condensed to "in the Royal Palace of Queluz near Lisbon". "...feared rival centers of influence and that Amélie, in combination with other political factions, might undercut their own power." Might read better as "...feared rival centers of influence. They also feared that Amélie—in collusion with other political factions—might undercut their own power." "...both her mother and herself..." would read better as "both her and her mother". "then-minister of Foreign Affairs" should use and en dash if it's a compound. If this is a proper title, it also needs to be capitalized: "then–Minister of Foreign Affairs". --Gyrobo (talk) 03:02, 10 March 2011 (UTC) More copyediting tuberculosis is linked twice in the lead. "...she did not recover and was affected by an insistent cough—the start of a tuberculosis." could be rephrased as "she did not recover, and was plagued by a chromic cough—the onset of tuberculosis." "The whole town turned out to greet her with joy..." could be rephrased as "The whole town greeted her joyfully..." "...deeply touched those people that were close to her." should be "who", not "that". "Emperor Pedro II, had never met his younger sister in person, but he had developed..." could be rephrased as "Emperor Pedro II had never met his younger sister in person, but had developed..." "In her honor, Amélie financed the construction of an hospital..." could be rephrased "Amélie financed the construction of a hospital in her daughter's honor". "He visited three Brazilians provinces during his visit." should be "Brazilian", singular. "...newly founded, and doomed, Mexican Empire." is it really appropriate to mention here that the Mexican Empire was doomed? The rest of the paragraph leads into that, and you don't want to go out of chronological order. "On 19 June 1867, Maximilian was executed, after being captured by Mexican republicans." is there an article for this republican faction? --Gyrobo (talk) 21:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Reply: Thanks for taking a look at the article. I have implemented some of your suggestions, and have offered alternative wording for some others. Regarding the Mexican republicans who captured Maximilian, I haven't found an article on the nationalist Liberal/Republican faction that captured Maximilian. There are articles on its leaders (Benito Juárez, Porfirio Díaz and Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín, and and article for French intervention in Mexico, but none of these does a good job of explaining the faction (members of the Liberal party who opposed the French-backed Conservatives and Emperor, which widened to a nationalist/republican cause once alienated Conservatives began defecting). I have instead wikilinked the word captured to a section describing the capture. I'm not opposed to using a better link, instead. • Astynax talk 07:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC) Remaining issues "Maria Amélia was born and spent her first years in France" doesn't clarify she was born there, just that she was born. Perhaps "Maria Amélia was born in, and spent her first years in, France," "Amélie bequeathed to Archduke Maximilian, "whom I would feel happy having as a son-in-law, had God conserved my beloved daughter Maria Amélia", her properties in Bavaria." could be rephrased as "Amélie bequeathed her properties in Bavaria to Archduke Maximilian, "whom [she] would [have felt] happy having as a son-in-law, had God conserved [her] beloved daughter Maria Amélia"." "...by what he had seen of the flourishing Brazilian Empire ruled by the elder brother of his deceased fiancée," could be rephrased as "by seeing Brazil flourish under the rule of his deceased fiancée's elder brother," "...while touring the Brazilian Empire..." should be "Empire of Brazil", based on your comments during the last FAC. "Thus in death, the Brazilian princess, whose in life had little impact upon events in either Brazil or Portugal, had an inadvertent and indirect consequence upon the history of Mexico." "Thus, a Brazilian princess, whose life had little impact upon either Brazilian or Portuguese events, indirectly in death had significant repercussions on the history of Mexico." is still awkward and could be rephrased "Thus in death, the Brazilian princess whose life had had little impact upon events in either Brazil or Portugal, had become a significant, if indirect, figure in Mexican history." or something similar. --Gyrobo (talk) 16:37, 17 March 2011 (UTC) The sentence in the lead currently reads: "Maria Amélia was born, and spent her first years, in France after Pedro I abdicated the Brazilian throne." which is clear that she 1) was born in France, and 2) spent her first years in France, without repeating the use of "in". I agree that the final sentence: "Thus, a Brazilian princess, whose life had little impact upon either Brazilian or Portuguese events, indirectly in death had significant repercussions on the history of Mexico" is still awkward. The suggested wording may be better, but is also difficult to read (especially aloud). I have reworded to "While Maria Amélia's life had little impact upon events in either Brazil or Portugual, her death had significant, if indirect, repercussions on the history of Mexico". If that does not address the problem, feel free to change it. If you do edit it, please note that she currently occupies a position that is more a significant and interesting "footnote" to Mexico's history than a significant "figure". Thanks for taking the time to hash through this. • Astynax talk 18:40, 17 March 2011 (UTC) Support, I've gone through and added commas where appropriate. My issues have been addressed, and I can no longer find any faults with the prose. --Gyrobo (talk) 16:10, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support, I've placed my comments within a collapsed field to conserve space. --Gyrobo (talk) 15:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by A. Parrot

The prose seems good to me, too, except one confusing portion in the "Birth" section. It says that Pedro I "abdicated both crowns", which makes it sound like he gave them both up at the same time. Then it describes the dispute over his succession in Portugal and says that in response he "abdicated the Brazilian throne in April 1831 and departed for Europe." If he gave up the Portuguese throne first, as seems to be the case, perhaps say "By such-and-such year, he had abdicated the Portuguese throne" and then talk about Maria II and the succession problem. A. Parrot (talk) 23:36, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look at the article. I really appreciate it. I removed the sentence "He abdicated both crowns" since it won't hurt the text. I also added a couple of words. Perhaps it's better now. If not, feel free to change to the way you believe it will be better. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 00:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I just have one more question. There isn't much information about Maria Amélia's personality or interests outside of her relationships; that material is mostly restricted to one paragraph in "Ill-fated engagement". Am I correct in assuming that this is all you could find on the subject? I encourage you to add more if you can, but if that isn't possible, I can't that see any further improvements are needed. A. Parrot (talk) 23:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately there isn't it. To this day, only one biograph was ever made of her (which is used in this article). And half of it is expended on Maximilian's life, not her's, and a third on her mother's life. The greatest issue about Maria Amélia is that she never had an important role herself and since she lived far alway from Brazil there was never much interest in historiograph on her. Biographies about Maximilian do not help much either since the most they talk is about how the Archuduke felt about her, but not on the Princess herself. In other words: I had to squeeze a lot of oranges to make a single cup of orange juice. --Lecen (talk) 00:07, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Just wanted to make sure of that. In that case…

• Support. It's well-written and apparently as thorough as is possible. A. Parrot (talk) 00:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ellipses should have spaces, need review (WP:MOS#Ellipses). Why is there hidden text in Ancestors? Why are English language words in WP:ITALICS? (English: Mary Emily Augusta Eugenia Josephine Louise Theodelinda Eli Francis Xavier of Paula Gabriella Raphaella Gonzaga). And why are collapsed templates used in this FAC? Please try to get a MOS review before Laser goes through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:40, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I have gone through the ellipses, and have removed the hidden fragment of html from the end of the Ancestors template. The italics used for the English version of Maria Amélia's names are produced by the {{lang-en}} template (I have deleted the use of the template for the names). The collapsed templates in the at the bottom of the article are navboxes containing links to related topics. I was under the impression that it is OK for navboxes to be collapsed. • Astynax ^talk 06:52, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Astynax, "Her Highness" should be in italics. At least, this is how it is in all other FA around. --Lecen (talk) 11:53, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• How do you know the main picture is by Stieler? There's no information on the image at the source about where the painting is, whose collection it is in, when it was painted or who the artist is.
• Could you please take a look at the Brazilian royalty categories? She isn't a prince, so it isn't right to put her in Category:Princes of Brazil (Brazil), and looking at that category and its parents, I think a better categorization can be drawn up. Something like "Brazilian Imperial Family", with emperors, empresses, princes and princesses sub-categories. DrKiernan (talk) 18:09, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed the category and added another one. Sorry about the painting, it was not I the one who uploaded it. The person who painted it was in fact Friedrich Dürck (1809-1884). In the official website of the Imperial Museum of Brazil (Here: [3]) in virtual sightseeing you can see the correct atribution. To see it, click on the picture where you can read "Tour virtual". You'll see a map on the museum. Click on the room called "Gabinete de trabalho" (at the center top left) and you'll see a reproduction of the painting. --Lecen (talk) 18:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I have a few queries/comments/suggestions:

1. Is it true that her full name excludes a surname?
2. The English translation of her name adds nothing, and is essentially a repetition.
3. "Queenship" in modern idiom, at least in my circles, is used dismissively or with sarcasm. I would change Eager to restore Maria II to her queenship, Pedro abdicated the Brazilian throne in April 1831 and departed for Europe.<Almeida, p. 38.> Maria Amélia's mother was pregnant with her during this time.<Almeida, p. 41.> to something along the lines of Eager to restore Maria II, Pedro abdicated the Brazilian throne in April 1831 and departed for Europe with his wife, who was pregnant with Maria Amélia.<Almeida, pp. 38-41.>
4. If the quote from Sousa could not hold the tears is your own translation, I would change it to could not hold her tears.
5. said of her, that the "Princess has... is better as said of her, "[the] Princess has... or said that she "has...
6. tells the following about her feelings is easier as tells about her feelings
7. The infobox and lead say she died on 4 February but the text in the death section implies she died after midnight in the following morning, which would have been 5 February. a little past midnight on 4 February should be clarified as in the very early hours of 4 February or a little after midnight in the early hours of 4 February.
8. He visited three Brazilian provinces during his visit, is a little repetitive.
9. In the titles and honors section she is "Highness" but her half-sisters are "Imperial and Royal Highnesses". Is this correct?
10. Why are the Brazilian honors "Grand cross" but the foreign ones "Grand Cross"?
11. I do think you need to add why she was not recognised at first. It would only require the addition of a couple of clauses, e.g. "because she was foreign-born" or "because she was born after her father's abdication", or whatever the reason was.

I'm satisfied that the article meets criteria 1c, 1d, 1e, 2a, 2b, 2c and 3, but have concerns over criteria 1a, 1b and 4, which are detailed above and are easily fixable. DrKiernan (talk) 19:13, 4 April 2011 (UTC), amended 07:27, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll answer some of your remarks:

1. Yes. None of the Brazilian royals had a surname (like "Braganza" or "Habsburg"). You can see an example in this contemporary book: [4]
2. Neither Pedro II nor his sisters were Portuguese royals and thus, they were not styled "Royal Highness". This (here: [5]) 19th century book explains why they were not regarded as part of the Portuguese Royal House. Maria II was officially excluded from the Brazilian Imperial House in 1834. --Lecen (talk) 19:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry. When I said I would answer some of your remarks I didn't mean that I wouldn't adress your other complains. It's because I didn't have the time to do it yesterday. Sorry if I might have looked like I had no desire to cooperate. I made all corrections as you suggested, feel free to look in the history log to check them out. Perhaps having the translated name might be considered a repetition. But I did that because the other articles about Brazilian royals do that and I'm trying to follow a standard. And unlike the majority of articles about royalty in English Wikipedia which has the name of royals translated to English (Nicholas II of Russia, not Nikolay II, for example), the ones about Brazilian royals maintain their names in Portuguese (Pedro II of Brazil, not Peter II). To avoid confusion and make clear that we are using the names in the original form, we add a translation to English. It might be repetitive, but I believe it does not cause any harm either. --Lecen (talk) 11:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

• This is a well-written, interesting, neutral, and stable article that is, as far as one can judge, both well-researched and comprehensive. It has a good lead section, appropriate structure, and consistent citations. The images are appropriate, correctly licensed, and verifiable. However, I have one remaining niggle, which is the English translation of her name:
• What is the source of the English translation? Which English sources refer to her by this name? If there aren't any then it's unsourced original research, and the article does not meet the criteria. Also, it's the only part of the article that I can see that falls outside the style guidelines. DrKiernan (talk) 12:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC), amended 05:33, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but "Amélia" is not "Amelia". It certainly does not have the same pronunciation. I can get you any dictionary that translates "Maria" to "Mary" and "Amélia" to "Emily". Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, for example, would have her name translated to "Elizabeth". In Brazil and in Portugal, Elizabeth I of England is known as Isabel. It's quite sad to see you remove you support because of this, but it's your decision and I believe you considered well before doing it. --Lecen (talk) 11:38, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't realised that about the pronunciation. (If you do remove the translation, perhaps replace it with a pronunciation guide?) Dictionaries translate Juan Carlos to John Charles and Giuseppi Verdi to Joseph Green, but I don't think we should do so on that basis. English sources call Teresa Cristina "Theresa Christina" and Pedro II "Peter II", so I have no problem with including these English translations in the respective articles, since the lead is supposed to include commonly-used alternative forms of the names. So, as I've seen Isabel as Isabella but not as Elizabeth, I would support "Isabella" being offered as an alternative name but not Elizabeth. There are reliable sources in Portuguese calling Elizabeth Tudor "Isabel I", so I have no problem with the Portuguese wikipedia using the term.

By the way, I'm not bothered personally about whether the English translation is italicized, but Sandy was concerned about it, and removing the translations (there's one in the lead as well as the body) gives you a way of addressing her concern as well. DrKiernan (talk) 13:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you're asking me to ignore my own language (Portuguese). See Mary (given name)#Variants, including short forms and diminutives and Emily (given name)#Name variants. Mary I of England is known as "Maria". As I told you before: most articles about royals in this Wikipedia translate their names to English. However, since American and British historians opted to call Portuguese and Brazilian royals in their original Portuguese names, we use "Pedro II", "Miguel I", "Maria Amélia", "Isabel", etc... To avoid confusion we chose to place a translation to English of the Portuguese name so that readers will understand that we are using the original Portuguese names. See yourself, for example. You're a highly experienced editor who did not know that the pronunciation of the Portuguese "Maria Amélia" is highly different of its English version "Maria Amelia" (or Maria Amalia, or Mary Emily, etc...).

If Sandy does not like that (as so many other things about whatever I do in here), she might simply remove it and her trouble will be all over. But I won't do that. Not because I'm stubborn or arrogant but simply because I know it's wrong. It will be a matter of time until someone appears asking "Why is the name Amélia and not Amelia?" or something similar because he won't know that we are using the Portuguese name.

I'll give you another similar problem: the use of the title "Dom" (or its female "Dona"). Take any book about Portugal or Brazil's history. You'll see names such as "Dom João VI", "Dom Pedro II", etc... (or their variants such as "D. Pedro II"). Try to find one single book that explains what means "Dom". You won't find it (with the exception of Roderick J. Barman's biograph of Pedro II that gives an easily unnoticiable note at the end of the book). Many are the ones who believe that "Dom" is actually part of Pedro II's name. In the Empire of Brazil FAC nomination, for example, an editor corrected "Dona Isabel" to "Donna Isabel" believing that "Dona" was the given name "Donna". That is why I add these titles (Dom and Dona) into the articles and give their (rough) translation into English (Lord and Lady, or even Dom and Dame). If I simply remove any reference to either Dom or Dona someone will apear in the talk page asking: "Hey, I read a book about Dom Pedro II, why Dom doesn't appear in here?".

As you can see, I must keep track of all these minor details since I know that 99.9% of the people out there does not know Brazilian history as I do. If either you or Sandy or even both oppose all I said... well... it's your call. But I believe you are both wrong for the reasons I gave above. I try to cooperate every single time I believe I'm mistaken or that the article can be improved (see this FAC for example, for all I did because of other editors suggestions or complains). On this case, however, I can not yield. Giving the English translation of a Portuguese name will not harm the article, on the contrary, if this will prevent any possible confusion. --Lecen (talk) 13:45, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

English names are very flexible. In translation into English, Maria can be Mary, Marie, or Maria, with at least three different pronunciations of Maria possible. Amélia can be Amelia, Amalia, Emilie, Amelie, Emily, or Emilia. I think we should use a translation that is in actual use rather than one of our own. The announcement of her death in The Times newspaper calls her "Princess Maria, sister of the Emperor of Brazil" and Charles Edwards Lester calls her "Marie-Amelie-Auguste-Eugenie" in his The Napoleon Dynasty of 1852. So, we could use "Marie Amelie" for the lead and then "Marie Amelie Auguste Eugenie Theodolinde" in the body. You could even keep the italicization by saying that that was her name in French, which would be a very reasonable thing to include given that she was born and christened there. DrKiernan (talk) 15:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't follow all of your response. I'm not asking you to use the English name for the article title or in the body: I'm asking you to remove "Mary Emily" from the lead and "Mary Emily Augusta Eugenia etc." from the first paragraph or replace it with an actual translation or the French version. DrKiernan (talk) 15:18, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

She was not christened with a French name, but with a Portuguese name. Her father was Portuguese born and her mother was German born. She was a Brazilian citizen, not Portuguese, not German and certainly not French. I'm seeing that at the end, this entire discussion is simply over a matter of taste. You like "Maria Amelie" and you want that one to prevail. Then change it. I'm quite tired and I don't even work on any articles in here anymore. All waiste of time. I'm only in this FAC because I don't like leaving unfinished business behind. If you want to change the name for the one you and Sandy personally prefer, do it. If you both do not want the article to pass, then simply remove this nomination. This huge discussion because of a name? Of how some people prefer one translation over another? I see articles with far worse quality than the ones I write and with even fewer supports pass quickly while everytime I nominate an article it is left to rot. The level of hostility in the FAC towards me does not pay the hard work I had. If it has no fun for me anymore, I have no reason to be in here. Please, feel free to do whatever you want. I really mean it. --Lecen (talk) 15:29, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support Changes made.[6] I believe that leaves this version compliant with all the criteria. DrKiernan (talk) 17:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unsourced original research in the "Titles and style" section. Attempts to address the issue are reverted. This is my final post at this page. DrKiernan (talk) 20:46, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Important: Reverted DrKiernan's edits since they had no explanation in any of them. If I meet Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom in Brazil, I should adress her as "Vossa Majestade"(Your Majesty) and after that simply as "Senhora"(Ma'am). You don't even need to be an expert on British protocol to know that. Just the pick the film "The Queen" released a few years ago and watch it with Portuguese subtitles. Or you may simply pick a Portuguese-English dictionary:

"ma'am s. senhora" (p.469)

Source: Houaiss, Antônio. Dicionário Inglês-Português. 1st ed. São Paulo: Record, 1982

Or simply take a look at an online dictionary. I can not write something if in my language it is translated to English as revealed above. I tried my best to deal with all issues raised by the reviewer but I won't create something out of nowhere only to please someone's personal taste. P.S.: For what is the correct translation to English of the Portuguese name "Maria Amélia" see Mary (given name) and Emily (given name). --Lecen (talk) 21:00, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Comments: I made all the following edits, unless I asked a question or made a request. Feel free to revert. - Dank (push to talk) 18:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• It's looking good so far. WP:ELLIPSES doesn't exactly forbid "[...]", but it sneers at it; we usually prefer spaces on either side of the ellipsis (with a few exceptions). I've read that the brackets are more common in BritEng. - Dank (push to talk) 18:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
• Feel free to revert; I've lowercased "princess" throughout except where it's clearly a proper noun. Some style manuals will tell you it's okay, but most prefer to lowercase it these days ... and I can think of 3 reasons why:
  • It's easier to make mistakes if you uppercase it. For instance, the article said "... was a Princess of the Empire of Brazil." This was wrong; proper nouns are almost never preceded by "a".
  • Capitalizing it doesn't fit the pattern for other proper nouns. Even though you could logically make a case for "The Empire State Building is in New York City. The Building was erected ...", on the theory that that second "Building" is a proper noun, we don't in fact capitalize it that way.
  • Journalists really prefer not to capitalize titles (except when they're directly in front of the noun, and therefore have to be proper nouns themselves), because capitalizing them leads to all kinds of arguments and neutrality issues. Which titles are important enough to capitalize when they appear alone ... the pope? the bishop? the sexton? the janitor? It's easier and less inflammatory to sidestep these questions. - Dank (push to talk) 19:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support per FAC disclaimer. These and these are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 20:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
• Whoever is still here and participating: WP policy is pretty straightforward, I'm quoting from WP:NONENG: "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, provided that English sources of equal quality and relevance are available. When quoting a source in a different language, provide both the original-language text and an English translation in the text or a footnote. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations." I see a couple of English-language reliable sources for the princess's name above; does anyone have others? - Dank (push to talk) 23:39, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Lecen has provided additional details on his talk page. I'm agreed with Ed that this should pass, but I need to do some reading, I'll be back in 12 hours or so. - Dank (push to talk) 03:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Back in 2 hours. - Dank (push to talk) 13:48, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Talking with Lecen and DrKiernan on their talk pages. - Dank (push to talk) 22:28, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. My general position at FAC is that there are thousands of things to keep track of and there are at least 10 things "wrong" (depending on your point of view) with every FA, so it doesn't make sense to me to get bent out of shape over any one little thing. Having said that ... one of the nominators believes that this issue of whether to translate the names is a very big deal, and has provided us with 30 cites that purport to show that the names of Brazilian royals are almost never translated into English in English sources ... okay, then per WP:TITLE (which has some relevance to the text as well as page titles) and all three core content policies, we shouldn't translate the names in this article. I don't understand what the problem is. - Dank (push to talk) 18:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Struck oppose, let's keep on moving. - Dank (push to talk) 18:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I removed the translated name of Maria Amélia (See here: [7]). That means that the "cause" of the entire discussion is gone. So, as you said yourself, "I don't understand what the problem is". --Lecen (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed ... fantastic, striking my oppose. Next issue: as you mentioned, many English speakers confuse "Dom" and "Dona" with a name, so a translation at some point is advisable. Does anyone have a suggestion for what and where that translation should be? - Dank (push to talk) 18:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Lecen said on my talk page that this is probably a settled issue, and I'm fine with the way it's currently handled in the article, but I want to ask just to make sure everyone is on board. I've also asked over at WT:ROYALTY about the translation in the "Royal styles" infobox. Does anyone know of any other open issues in this FAC? - Dank (push to talk) 19:30, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not know about Portuguese, but in Spanish, doña and don are not titles reserved for royalty, they are commonly used for everyone-- in Spanish, I am a doña, so I'm not sure that can be resolved by the ROYALTY WP. I don't know the exact translation, but it's simply a title of respect in Spanish, slightly above Señora. Whether it has an equivalent English translation for royalty, I don't know ... it's possible that it's used commonly in Spanish just as you would commonly refer to someone as a "princess" or "queen" if you want to show respect, emotion, whatever. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that. This is the last issue that DrKiernan and I are aware of in this FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 20:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Dom (or Don) and Dona (or Doña) are reserved only to the nobility. However, as time passed, it has become common to call any woman, usually a mature woman by "Dona" as a synonym of "Senhora" (or Señora or Ma'am) as a sign of respect. "Senhora Cardoso, como está?" (or "Dona Cardoso, como está?" or "Madam Cardoso, how are you?". Miguel de Cervantes already joked about this in his masterpiece Don Quixote. "Perguntou-lhe ele o nome; ao que ela lhe respondeu que se chamava a Moleira, e que era filha de um honrado moleiro de Antequera. A esta também Dom Quixote pediu que usasse 'dom'[5], e se chamasse Dona Moleira, oferecendo-lhe novos serviçoes e mercês." (He asked her name, to which she replied to him that she was called Miller, and that she was the daughter of an honored miller of Antequera. To her Dom Quixote asked to be used 'dom'[5], and that she would be called Dona Miller, offering her new services and honors.) There is a footnote at the end of the page: "5. Ridiculariza aqui Cervantes o uso indevido do 'dom', na época" (5. Here Cervantes mocks the inappropriate use of 'dom', at the time.) Source: Cervantes, Miguel de. O engenhoso fidalgo Dom Quixote de la Mancha. São Paulo: Abril, 1978, p.39

And we're talking about a book published in the 17th century. In Brazil and Portugal, as well as in Spanish speaking countries such as Spain, Argentina, Mexico, etc. I may call a woman "Senhora Maria", or "Dona Maria" (or Senhorita, which means "miss", if she is not married). If translated to English, it means "Ma'am" or "Mrs.". This when "Dona" is used in the day to day basis, not as the nobility title which originally came from. If used as in the latter case, the translation is "Lady". "Minha senhora, juro servir a ti." (My Lady, I swear to serve thy."

The word "Dom" comes from "Dominus", as in A.D. (Year of Our Lord), for example. Dominion, another example that can be given, means "Domínio" in Portuguese, but it can also be translated as "Lordship". --Lecen (talk) 20:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support on prose per standard disclaimer. My last potential issue (and I think DrKiernan's) was over the particular translation in the "royal styles" userbox, but no one at the WT:ROYALTY project has responded to my message, and if it's not a big deal for anyone over there, then it's certainly not a big deal for me. Note to closer: I asked Lecen and DrKiernan not to discuss the issues directly with each other while I was talking with each of them. I believe DrKiernan doesn't intend to come back and strike his oppose, but OTOH, as I mentioned above, I believe the main things that concerned him have been dealt with. - Dank (push to talk) 19:08, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• Strong support - pedantic disputes over the subject's English name seem to go a tad overboard, and now we've driven a prolific article writer away. Nice job. I'm inclined to trust Lecen, the guy who has done all the research, on the choice of name. This is a great article, and I'm happy to provide my full support. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 01:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support: I have no concerns, the article meets FA criteria in my opinion. Regards, Paulista01 (talk) 18:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.