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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/D. H. Turner/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 9 October 2021 [1].

D. H. Turner edit

Nominator(s): Usernameunique (talk) 06:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A curator and scholar, D. H. Turner spent the better part of his life at the British Museum and British Library, where he focused on liturgical studies and illuminated manuscripts; fittingly, the few years of his career spent elsewhere included time at an abbey. His work included several major exhibitions and loans, including sending the Gospels of Tsar Ivan Alexander to Bulgaria, the Moutier-Grandval Bible to Switzerland, and a copy of Magna Carta to the United States.

This article builds on the available sources about Turner's life and publications, and manages to be exhaustive while not overly long. It was given a good-article review by J Milburn in 2018; more recently, I have dug deep for reviews of Turner's publications and works discussing his impact, and added what is there. It is now ready to be nominated here. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Image licensing looks ok (t · c) buidhe 23:37, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Wehwalt edit

  • "and in succeeding years helped loan several medieval manuscripts for the first time in half a millennium" Instead of "helped loan", perhaps "helped arrange the loan of"? After all, he did not do the loaning himself.
  • Done.
  • "Through his work the Gospels of Tsar Ivan Alexander returned to Bulgaria for the first time since the 1300s, and the Moutier-Grandval Bible returned to Switzerland, its home throughout the Middle Ages." Given the discussion re returning certain museum or library items to their countries of origin, I'd clarify that these were loans.
  • Clarified.
  • "From assistant keeper he rose to deputy keeper." Can more be stated about what this means? If this is a considerable advancement, the accomplishment may be lost on the reader.
  • I've looked around, but haven't found anything that really lays it out. I understand that assistant keeper is an entry-level position, and keeper is the head of the department, but I'm not sure how high up the ladder "deputy keeper" is.
  • "universities of Cambridge and East Anglia." you are not consistent on capitalisation of this phrase the two times you use it.
  • Capitalized.
  • "He followed up the former work " haven't you just listed three? It's hard to understand what "former" means in that regard.
  • Changed "the former work" to "the first book".
  • "leading to the loan of Magna Carta to Washington, D.C. for the 1976 United States Bicentennial celebrations" was the document loaned to the City of Washington or to some institution such as the Smithsonian? Similar on Sophia.
  • It was at the United States Capitol; added a couple sources and some more information. On the other hand, I haven't been yet able to find where the Gospels of Tsar Ivan Alexander were displayed. I'll keep looking, though, since sources undoubtedly exist. Per Backhouse and Jones 1987, the loan was accompanied by "a blaze of nationalistic publicity."
  • "and introduced her to the exhibition and loans of manuscripts." Should loans be loan?
  • I'm really not sure. "introduced her to the exhibition" sounds correct, in that "the exhibition" is used as "the practice of exhibiting." But I don't think "the loan" can really mean "the practicing of loaning." Maybe it should be "the exhibition and loaning of manuscripts"?
  • " the British Museum and later Library" "came at the museum and library" Are these consistent?
  • I think so; my intention, at least, was for the former to be proper nouns and the latter to be common (improper?) nouns. But I could be persuaded otherwise.
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Wehwalt. Responses above. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley edit

  • Following several years spent working at a hospital and living at an Anglican Benedictine abbey – were these years concurrent or sequential? Not clear.
  • Probably sequential; according to the source, "Between [his 195 graduation] and his arrival at the British Museum, where he took up his post as Assistant Keeper of Manuscripts on 3 December 1956, he undertook a period of hospital work and tried his vocation in the Anglican Benedictine community at Nashdom Abbey in Buckinghamshire. At Nashdom his incipient interest in liturgical studies was encouraged, not least by daily practice, and he came into contact with Dom Anselm Hughes, doyen of specialists in the history of medieval music." How does "Following several years spent at a hospital and at an Anglican Benedictine abbey" sound instead?
  • the move occasioned only by the deaccession of the museum's library elements in favour of the new institution – this would be better if written in plain English. I imagine it means that the stuff was moved from the BM to the BL, in which case it would be as well to say so clearly.
  • coauthor of the paper – the OED hyphenates "co-author".
  • Done.
  • the Chair of Palaeography at King's College London – does chair of palaeography need Capital Letters?
  • Nope.
  • analyzed a set – unexpected –ize ending in a BrE article (though we know the OUP is still to catch up with modern –ise use).
  • Changed.
  • repurposing as teaching material – rather a posh term for "reusing"?
  • There's not a huge difference between the two, but I think "prepurposing" is slightly more precise. It suggests a change in use, not just a second use.
  • He also assumed the chairmanship – sounds a touch usurpative put like that – he was appointed, presumably
  • Changed to "undertook", which is the word the source uses. Haven't been able to find another record of the positions (e.g., proceedings of the organizations), although I assume you are correct that it was an appointment.
  • and him with it – not sure the accusative will do here: him wasn't subsumed: he was.
  • Changed.
  • responsibility over loans – does one have responsibility over things rather than for them?
  • Changed (there was one above, too).
  • Turner helped author – what a horrible word! What's wrong with a plain English "write"?
  • Changed, although I'd be curious to know what you find so objectionable about "helped author"? The OED, for its part, records usage of "author" as a verb going back to 1597.
  • The OED comments "This usage has been objected to by some commentators", and quite right too. Shakespeare, never a man to be shy of turning nouns into verbs, managed without "authoring" or "to author". I haven't got the current edition of Fowler to hand, but in the third edition (1996) Burchfield says that the use of "author" as a verb is found in America, but "does not find any kind of acceptance in the quality newspapers, or in literary works, in Britain". Plain Words points out that nouns such as "contact", "feature", "glimpse" and "sense" have been turned into verbs, but continues, "loan, gift and author were verbs centuries ago and are now trying to come back again after a long holiday, spent by loan in America, by gift in Scotland and by author in oblivion. These have not yet succeeded, presumably because they compete with the established alternatives lend, give and write." Here endeth the Epistle of Timothy. (Well, you did ask.) – Tim riley talk 07:51, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • interacting with the Foreign Office – wasn't it the Foreign and Commonwealth Office by then?
  • dignitaries including Lord Elwyn-Jones and Queen Elizabeth II – with all due respect to his Lordship, it looks a bit odd to tack the Queen on after him, whatever the chronological order of their viewing the thing.
  • I was saving the best for last, but I take your point. Queen Elizabeth II now appears before our man Elwyn.
  • he helped loan … he helped lend – I think consistency would be nice here, preferably standardising on the latter.
  • Done.
  • several months leave – several months' leave?
  • Done.
  • keeper of manuscripts Daniel Waley – a clunky false title
  • Added a "the" at the beginning.

Those are my few comments on the prose. The actual content seems to me top notch. Tim riley talk 20:22, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the close look, Tim riley. I enjoyed reading your comments (and adjusting accordingly). --Usernameunique (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support – A fine article, which in my view meets all the FA criteria. It appears comprehensive, balanced and proportionate, is well and widely sourced, appropriately illustrated and a pleasure to read. If I may be permitted an afterthought, I think "Bibliography" for the list of books you cite is perhaps not ideal: some people would use the term for the list of the subject's own books, and given the (very minor) scope for confusion I'd be inclined to call the list "Sources" or some such. I do not press the point in the least. – Tim riley talk 07:51, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Harry edit

  • D. H. Turner was born on 15 May 1931 If it was me, I'd give either his full name or just his surname here. The article title is his initials and his full name is given in the lead, so surname only is probably preferable, much as my username would suggest I empathise with the two initials and surname!
  • Done. If an article on you someday makes it onto this site, however, we may have to make an exception!
  • Maybe specify where Northampton is for readers not familiar with English geography? "Northampton, England" is not very helpful. "in the English Midlands" or "in central England" would be my suggestion.
  • Went with "in central England".
  • subsumed into the British Library, and him with it suggest "Taylor" instead of "him" just for an abundance of clarity
  • I'm not sure that calling him "Taylor" would clear things up. But kidding aside, I think it's fairly clear already, given that nobody else is named or mentioned in that sentence.
  • lifelong refusal to cross the Atlantic do we know why?
  • The sources don't say why.
  • Is it not a little redundant to list the author name in a list of his publications?

I've tried to avoid duplicating Tim above, but your usual high standard and Tim's attention to detail have left me slim pickings. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:49, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks much, HJ Mitchell. Appreciate the comments. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support, just to state the obvious! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:39, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Iazyges edit

  • Backhouse, Janet is linked twice.
  • Not sure if you're talking about in the text (where she also had a duplicate link) or in the bibliography. I removed the duplicate from the text. As to the bibliography, it's generally my practice to have a new link per citation.
  • Warburg Institute is already linked as the publisher, so probably no need to have two links within the same citaiton pointing to the same page.
  • Is there a reason why "Hartzell, Karl Drew" is given as 1989 instead of December 1989?
  • Cambridge lists it as December 1989, but I don't see December listed anywhere in the front matter (available here).
  • For "Lynch, Joseph" the JSTOR page gives a date of January 1982, rather than February 1967.
  • Whoops. Fixed.
  • "Prescott, Andrew" uses the ISBN for the 1997 edition, rather than the 1988 edition; use ISBN 978-0-585-19928-3 instead.
  • Fixed.
  • Thanks for the source review, Iazyges! Responses above. One note on ISBNs: WP:ISBN advises that "if an older work only lists an ISBN-10, use that in citations instead of calculating an ISBN-13 for it. This is because ISBNs are often used as search strings and checksum differences between the two forms make it difficult to find items listed only under the other type." As a result, I've gone with the 10-digit versions in this article; the latest work with an ISBN is from 1988, and 13-digit ISBNs were not issued until 2007. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Usernameunique, article passes. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:22, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Z1720 edit

Non-expert prose review

  • "met the medieval music specialist Dom Anselm Hughes." If Hughes is notable enough to mention in this article, then he's probably notable enough for an article and should be wikilinked. Otherwise, remove this sentence as unnecessary detail.
  • "Particularly while an assistant keeper he also focused on scholarship, seeing many articles published and teaching part-time at the Universities of Cambridge and East Anglia." -> "While assistant keeper he also focused on scholarship, published many articles and teaching part-time at the Universities of Cambridge and East Anglia." to tighten up the language.
  • Per the below, the sentence has been removed.
  • "Including two bequests by Perrins, and eight purchases at a collective and below market £37,250, the museum acquired ten of the collection's 154 manuscripts." -> The museum acquired ten of the collection's 154 manuscripts, including two bequests by Perrins and eight purchases at a collective and below market £37,250." This starts the sentence with a noun, a structure usually preferred in English.
  • Done.
  • The first paragraph in Career is repeating information that is stated in the next two sections, and reads more like a lede. It should be deleted, in my opinion.
  • Fair enough, removed.

Those are my thoughts. Please ping when they have been responded to. Z1720 (talk) 01:40, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Z1720. Responses above. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:08, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Concerns have been addressed. I support. Z1720 (talk) 16:13, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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