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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cato June/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:32, 2 December 2009 [1].

Cato June edit

Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured article because. This is a very complete and detailed biographical account and it is worthy of consideration for FA.TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technical comments

  • No dab links, and all images have alt text with no obvious errors.
  • Cite date formats are consistent ISO-style.
  • The external links appear fine, except:
    • Ref 22 comes up as a not-found page and I couldn't find an archive after checking archive.org, WebCite, and several search engines. :(
      • If I remove the ref, it becomes a fact without a citation. Must I remove this fact if I can not find a citation or is it believable enough in context that it can slip by in this extremely well-cited article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I would've just left it as is, with a {{dead link}} tag right before or right after the {{cite ___}} or {{citation}} tag. Something good is bound to happen—in New Cutie Honey, lots of links suddenly went "dead" for me, only to be found somewhere else on their site or to have just been "asleep" for a time. --an odd name 00:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I thought a {{dead link}} disqualified a WP:FAC. I know it is not asleep because the university has moved all that content to a new host server. I think only current player bios got moved and old bios got tossed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'll let others resolve the issue then. :) --an odd name 01:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is there a way to provide a reference using the google results of the following search term: site:mgoblue.com "Cato June" "triple jump"?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:51, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • All of the newsbank links (and there's a lot) appear green or blue at the link checker (probably because they're subscription or whatever). They seem fine from a random glance, but review them if you want to be sure.

--an odd name 23:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm ready to support based on everything else but experienced this as well. Connection times out on the tool so I started going through by hand and received several "Headline cannot be found" errors. Some of these were sources I remember looking at so I hit reload and it popped up just fine. It looks like an error on their end but I am not sure. Has anyone experienced something like this? I'm under the impression that we don't need to use only online sources but since they appear to work most of the time it is nice to have them.Cptnono (talk) 11:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I have read through the article as the GA reviewer, and have also read through most of the references to make sure that they matched up with the text of the article. There is great detail, needless to say, in the article, and I do think this represents Wikipedia's best work. Wizardman 20:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. I took the liberty of doing a few small formatting tweaks. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments – Quite a few little prose issues that I picked up on in the early part of the article. The lead looks okay, but the body could use a fresh pair of eyes. If I can ever find some time, maybe I could provide them. Can't promise anything, though.
  • Not sure about the two Super Bowl XLI links in the lead.
  • Dropping to the references for a second, I see a red link in ref 148. I discovered that there is a Key West Citizen article here; just drop "The" from the publisher title or pipe the link, and the red will be gone.
  • Early years: found a long, winding sentence that verges on a run-on: "As a sophomore, on Thanksgiving Day in the District of Columbia Interscholastic Athletic Association championship game, known as the Turkey Bowl... (keeps going for a while after this)."
  • That season he earned a selection to by The Washington Post's...".
  • Comma after "June fumbled on the 1-yard-line in the fourth quarter".
  • "the football team would deal with the adversity of D.C. school crisis". Should it be "a D.C. school crisis"?
  • "During the championship game, June scored the touchdown that gave Anacostia its only lead at 8–6. However, in the championship game". Honestly, I feel the last four words can be dropped. It's already clear this is about the title game, and the language is only repeating itself.
  • "He visited Florida in Mid-January 1998." De-capitalize Mid.
  • "He was part of a recruiting class for the Heisman Trophy-winning Charles Woodson-led undefeated national champion Wolverines that was ranked as the best in the nation." The opening part strikes me as convoluted, especially considering that Woodson had left for the NFL by the time of June's redshirt freshman season.
  • Comma after Drew Henson.
  • College career: "June played college football at the University of Michigan, where switched from cornerback...". Missing word after the comma.
  • De-capitalize Winner later in the same sentence. Giants2008 (17–14) 02:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just quickly adding one thing I found while editing one of the sections: I couldn't figure out whether June's fourth-most tackles in 2001 referred to all of Division I-A or just his conference. That was somewhat unclear as I read it. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:22, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • That paragraph is pretty detailed. Feel free to edit it. He was only fourth on his team.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • One more thing I found while cleaning the prose a bit: "They were known for having Madden 2003 for Playstation in an apartment known as 'The Stadium'." Having what? Tournaments? Sessions? Without access to the source(s), I can't add the appropriate word in. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • What are you saying is in need of fixing. Madden 2003 was the name of a video game and playstation is a platform. I added ", where competition among football team members often occurred". Not sure if this addresses your concern.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Why don't you click on the refs to see the sources?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - All images check out. Awadewit (talk) 03:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment "June was born in Riverside, California.....?" What country? Don't expect every reader on the planet to know what country a state is in. Amandajm (talk) 12:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support More comments Everything below has been addressed. This is a thorough and complete treatment of the subject. Nice work. Cptnono (talk) 23:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Muskogee being part of the Great Plains might be disputed. The source says "Oklahoma plains" and definitions of where the Great Plains start differs. Not a big concern but something to keep in mind.
    • Based on my basic understanding of the term we are not far off, although strict interpretation of the map in the link belies the statement. I will leave it and let locals fight about it who might know unless you upgrade this to a big concern.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "barren field" Dirt? bad grass? divots?
    • What is the question?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Anacostia's field was a barren, rugged prairie known by players across the city as the 'dust bowl.'" It can't tell if the source is saying patchy grass, dirt, or whatever. "Poor" might be a good replacement since "barren" raises questions and isn't usually associated with sports fields.
  • "As a high schooler with aspirations of making a mark in the NFL like Deion Sanders, he left his mark by writing "Big Time 1" on things whenever the opportunity arose" Is " like Deion Sanders" needed in the line?
    • I was inferring from the end of sentence ref that he viewed Sanders as his role model. Is this too much of a stretch from the source.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The source mentions the poster. This borders on assuming and it doesn't seem necessary for this particular line.
  • Washington "Huskes" to "Huskies"
  • "In his senior season, June was noted for his individual effort to stop a bootleg play against Notre Dame on September 14" Who noted/why noted?
    • The source says "After a great individual effort by Michigan safety Cato June to stop a bootleg by Notre Dame quarterback Carlyle Holiday with just over two minutes to play, the Wolverines got the ball back down 25-23 at their own 30-yard line."
    • Revised as "In his senior season, one of June's notable performances was his individual effort to stop a bootleg play against Notre Dame on September 14, which forced a change of possession to give Michigan the ball with just over two minutes remaining."--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikilink "American Football Conference Championship Game"?
  • "...when the Colts got to..." "Got" is typically seen in simple English. Any alternative?
  • wikilink "Bye (sports)"
  • The images in the Tampa Bay section pinch the text. Consider moving the second image down a paragraph.
    • It could be argued that the "June's first regular season interception..." image should be moved to the right so that the eyes are facing the text but I believe keeping chronological order and staggering them is more important so I would keep it on the left as is.
    • Image moved down.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • wikilink passing down
  • Consider breaking "June made his first interception, which led to a touchdown scoring drive, during his second game as a Buccaneer, which was a 31–14 victory against the New Orleans Saints" into two separate sentences.
  • Consider striking "Cato is a family name;" and relying on "The name is of Nigerian origin and goes back for generations in his family."
  • "In college, June and Hobson were roommates. They were known for having Madden 2003 for Playstation in an apartment known as "The Stadium". Interesting stuff right there. Add a line of detail?
  • "Boxing training workouts" This almost reads like familiar title or phrase but it isn't common. Consider adjusting "Boxing training during/style workouts "workouts that consist of boxing."
    • O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You could tie this into the paragraph by mentioning his other NFL buddies (seems to be the theme of the paragraph)
      • Not sure what you mean.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • This paragraph seems to bee a few rabdom facts thrown in together. It is all interesting stuff but it needs an introductory line or tweaking to explain how individual facts are related. "Off the field..." or something cute like that.
  • Does the "‹See Tfd›" tag need to be visible to the reader?
    • That is a notice that will be visible while the TFD discussion is going on. It may last up to a week although I could easily see a WP:SNOW closing of the debate.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When June was a member of the Buccaneers and the Colts had their Super Bowl ring ceremony, June flew to Indianapolis and back without missing any practice." Source might be dead (I'm having connection issues so can not verify). Are you trying to say that he has a good work ethic? This could use a quick line explaining its relevance.
    • I think I have fixed the link. It just seemed like an interesting fact. Not sure what to add. Suggestion?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Bucs defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin said. 'Cato got his ring and then showed up here in time. That's how dedicated he is. He's a Buccaneer. He fits right in, plays with a lot of enthusiasm and loves football. He could have had an attitude, but he was very respectful of our veterans.'" - Maybe move this out of personal and into the Bucs section. He is a dedicated player is probably the most relevent peice of info to use. Cptnono (talk) 06:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good job on getting the infobox perfect per the template's parameters. I am impressed that you were able to provide such in depth info from his youth. Nice workCptnono (talk) 01:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I do a lot of U of Michigan and Chicago area athletes and have trolled through a lot of newspaper archives to do so. For most guys who went to high school in the last ten or twenty years this kind of detail is easy to find with the source I use. I tend to do athletes off the beaten path. I have not taken on athletes that are surefire HOF or anything where reviewing all their newspaper articles would be impossible. Since I do athletes where you can read every newspaper article, starting with the first one I can find is pretty easy. For Evan Turner, I was even able to find a youth league source and for Tate Forcier, I found stuff from his midget days. I am still looking for someone who wants to help me overhaul Rob Pelinka. If you want to do a co-nom, I would love some help overhauling his article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The amount of papers you go through is apparent with all of the facts you have provided. It is a thorough and complete treatment of the subject. I made a second pass through and saw need for some minor clean up. Consider the notes below and make any needed corrections. I expect that I will be popping in later tonight or tomorrow to support this nomination. The other article looks like fun so I will check it out, too.

  • It mentions that he was a sophomore twice in the opening Early life paragraph. Is that needed?
  • Is "$81,490 in current dollar terms" in the second paragraph of Early life up to date?
  • This looks like it could be broken up and is too much info for one sentence: "He was selected as The Washington Post All-Met Defensive Player of the Year and USA Today District of Columbia Player of the Year and Second-team All-USA for not yielding a touchdown all season and collecting five interceptions (two for touchdowns), 84 solo tackles, 39 assists in addition to his offensive statistics, which included 889 yards and 12 touchdowns."
  • 2 concerns in the later paragraph discussing his senior year of high school:
    • "June was also honored by the The Pigskin Club of Washington, D.C" should come before the basketball mention.
    • "He was a starting small forward on the three-time DCIAA championship basketball team." Should be moved to the next paragraph that discusses other sports he played his senior year.
  • "June graduated as salutatorian." Should this be moved up a paragraph along the other scholastic achievements? Alternately, it could stay as it is to close out the section.
  • "At Michigan, defensive back June's head coach, Lloyd Carr, was a former defensive backs coach." This could cause confusion with him being a defensive back and the possessive being coupled. Wikilinks might be helpful for people who don't understand the structure. Maybe "As a defensive back at Michigan, June's head coach was the former coach for the position" or some other light rewording?
  • "Although a total of nine starters were lost, June was a welcome addition to a lineup with eight returning defensive starters" (third paragraph of College section) could be read as contrasting the loss of 9 starters and him being a welcome addition instead of losing nine starters but keeping 8 others. Consider reworking to remove the "Although".
  • "and losing who Marcus Washington" in the second paragraph of Indianapolis Colts. "who" and "Marcus Washington" need to be swapped.
  • "June recorded two more interceptions, one of which changed the momentum of the game because quarterback Marc Bulger was injured trying to chase June, and both of which led to touchdowns as the Colts beat the St. Louis Rams 17–0." Consider separating this into two sentences. "...trying to chase June. Both interceptions led to.."
  • The first Tampa Bay image does not need a period in the caption from my understanding of Wikipedia:Captions. It is an extended nominal group not a sentence.
    • It is a complete sentence. If signs were signing it would be unnecessary. Would you prefer that the caption was changed?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Over the course of the 2007 season June and Brooks divided up time at linebacker during nickel defense coverage." 3rd paragraph in the Tampa Bay section. Simply "divided is OK and "up" can be removed.

Cptnono (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sourcing comments addressed —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 01:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC) - Ealdgyth hasn't commented on this FAC, so I'll help her out :-)[reply]
    • Current ref 118 ("Bettis, Jerome and Gene Wojciechowski (September 2007). The Bus: My Life in and out of a Helmet. Doubleday. ISBN 978-0-385-52061-4. Retrieved 2009-07-26.") needs a page number for where it appears in the book. The style also must be consistent with the other citations, ie something like this: Bettis, Jerome; Wojciechowski, Gene (2007-09). The Bus: My Life in and out of a Helmet. Doubleday. ISBN 978-0-385-52061-4.
      • Again not sure what you want. I noted the secondary source so that it is clear why the original page number is not available.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Na, on further reflection a page number isn't needed with the link. Fixed this [2] —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 01:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Current ref 210 ("Cato June". buccaneers.com. Retrieved 2009-08-10.") needs full publishing information, etc. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 18:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are the two images so tiny? Please see MoS on images for how to upsize them. I'd be looking at 250px for that kind of detail.
    • They were set for defualt sizing for each user's preferences. However, I will switch the action photo to 250 px. I am not so sure that the image of him autographing really needs to be resized. If you would prefer that one resized as well, I will accommodate that wish.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:22, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's very heavily linked throughout, especially at the top. I'd audit the links and remove anything not absolutely necessary ... like "free agent", "college football", "Washington D.C." (where's that? and a moment later, "District of Columbia" is linked ... very similar), "California" (who would click on that link?), "class president". And really, I think you could drop the four links here: "high school football, basketball, track and field and baseball". There are plenty of valuable links already. Tony (talk) 13:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – After a prose review/cleanup, I'm confident that this is OK on 1a grounds. Sourcing also appears fine; I scanned through all of them and there are none that I would question. Technical stuff has checked out already and photos are fine, and I can't argue that this isn't comprehensive. All in all, FA criteria all appear to be met. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Much of this —I am sorry to say—is completely unintelligible to me and I suspect other readers who are not fans or know little to nothing about the sport because we live outside the US. OK, I expect to become lost with regard to the esoteric aspects of the game, but can we at least make the Lead a little more accessible? This for example, " A Pro Bowl selection in 2006, June earned a Super Bowl ring with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI, as the team's leading tackler for the season" is gibberish to me. What on earth does this mean? Does it mean, "following a selection", I can understand Russian better than this. I am resigned to become completely lost in the Body of the article, but at least make an effort to make the Lead more understandable. He sounds like a great guy, but I would not be able to tell anyone in the UK why after reading this. Please—because clearly you are passionate—you have to say, at least in the Lead, why the subject warrants a Wikipedia Featured Article. PS don't shoot the Brits . Graham Colm Talk 21:32, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At first, I couldn't understand Graham's confusion (speaking US football), but upon closer examination, I see the problems. He didn't earn a Super Bowl ring as the team's leading tackler; he earned it because his team won the Super Bowl that year. And he may have gotten the Pro Bowl selection because he was the leading tackler, but we aren't told that. In fact, we aren't even told what year Super Bowl XLI was, so we don't know if these events are related at all. The sentence is more than a jargon issue; it mixes unrelated thoughts. This suggests the entire text needs to be gone through by a non-US football person for clarity. Also, the lead says he is "currently" a free agent, which breaches WP:MOSDATE#Precise language and should have a year. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:59, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am just landing from a Thanksgiving (United States) trip. I will have to take a closer look at this later tonight. However, the sentence seems to be fairly grammatical although jargony. Here is my take on the complaint. I believe the grammatical construction of "A Pro Bowl selection in 2006, June" is that of an appositive. I.E., the sentence "June was a Pro Bowl selection in 2006." is being reconstructed so that the object modifies the subject of another sentence ("June earned a Super Bowl ring with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI, as the team's leading tackler for the season"). I will look more closely at the rest later tonight.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I restructured the beginning of the sentence to eliminate a preposition, but need to examine the end of the sentence.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I were to distill Cato June's notability down to any two sentences in the article it would be the two you two have derided. I.E., "Cato Nnamdi June (born November 18, 1979 in Riverside, California, United States) is an American football linebacker who is currently a free agent. . .A 2006 Pro Bowl selection, June earned a Super Bowl ring with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI, as the team's leading tackler for the season." essentially tells you everything you need to know about who he is to understand his importance. Any American sports fan immediately knows his exact notability with these two sentences. The first sentence says he is a currently-active athlete who is unaffiliated with any team. The second sentence describes his two most important points of notability, which are that he is a former Pro Bowler and a player who led a Super Bowl Champion in tackles for a season. In terms of establishing his notability it is not relevant whether he did these in the same year, but I will examine rewriting for clarity. Give me a few minutes.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:38, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence does not violate WP:MOSDATE#Precise language because National Football League player pages are updated very quickly for team affiliation. As soon as he signs with another team, his team affiliation will reflect as much.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to rework "as the team's leading tackler for the season", which is malplaced to modify Super Bowl XLI.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(copied from User talk page) GrahamColm, I have read your comments on Cato June. You have essentially asked me to explain why he is sufficiently WP:N to be a deserving subject of a WP:FA. Although I do not believe any page that is sufficiently WP:N to be on WP, needs further notability to be deserving of a FA, the problem here lies with you not understanding the subject. A person who does not understand the significance of being a Pro Bowler or a Super Bowl champion's leading tackler should seriously consider whether they even voice a deciding opinion on the matter. I would not voice an opinion on a singer if I did not understand the meaning of platinum albums and grammy awards, for example.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see some changes, but there are still problems. (TTT, please do not badger opposers as you did above; the article has to be understandable to everyone. GrahamColm may not know US football, but I do, and I can't get past the first paragraph.)
  • Cato Nnamdi June (born November 18, 1979 in Riverside, California, United States) is an American football linebacker who is currently a free agent. ... A 2006 Pro Bowl selection, June earned a Super Bowl ring the following season with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI. During the Super Bowl championship season, June was the Colts' leading tackler.
This is better, but we still need an as of date on the free agency, and "earned a Super Bowl ring" is unnecessary jargon; you need to tell the audience that means his team won the Super Bowl. This is the first paragraph only; I'm concerned the entire article needs a thorough look. Strangely, although the as of date is missing from the lead, the reader is entertained with every single irrelevant date in his college football career (see WP:PROSELINE, and why is the college career of a Pro Bowler discussed in date-by-date, game-by-game detail?). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As of date, not necessary. I can almost guarantee, if a team signs a Pro Bowl linebacker his team affiliation will be changed within 24 hours. Currently, is thus all that is necessary. This is not like the college guys I usually write about that no one else follows. This is the NFL.
Badgering was not intentional. I wrote my response in parts as I thought about issues. I apologize if this is considered badgering.
College career, mentions all notable highlights. In a typical 13 game season this means mentioning about three or four games. It is not game-by-game. It is a highlight account. Same for pro career. It only mentions a few games a year that help define his career. I think I only included games that helped the reader develop an understanding of his career history. I would welcome some detailed copyedit assistance with this however. The article has been to WP:PR, but I am willing to make a return visit there.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I've read one section of this article and I'm not very impressed by it. The article is quite tremendous for a BLP on a relatively obscure football player, and overall I have the feeling that it's way too detailed and presents hundreds of random factoids with no organization. For example, in the Personal section, we have three sentences about the subject's tattoos when they don't really deserve even a mention. In the third paragraph: In college, June and Hobson were roommates. They were known for having sessions of Madden NFL 2003 for PlayStation 2 in an apartment known as "The Stadium", where competition among football team members often occurred. - How is this a notable aspect of June's biography? The fourth paragraph seems to be largely non-notable fluff as well. I glanced through the rest of the article, but was intimidated by the screens upon screens of unbroken, thick, jargon-filled prose that I can't read at all. Finally, there are 227 references, of which all are newspaper entries, which further confirms my suspicion that this article lacks sustenance from major secondary sources. Sorry, but I don't feel this is an example of our best yet. –Juliancolton | Talk 04:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is unfortunate that you based your entire decision on the least important section of the article without any substantive commentary on the main body of the article. Now both opposes are based on opinions that ignore the main body of the article. Yes the personal section has less organization because by its nature it is a catchall section. It is also unfortunate that you find his video game interest as unnotable, while the United States military disagrees according to the article. However, this is how personal sections work. It includes facts that do not follow the natural chronology of a persons vocation. Yes it mentions tattoos, but I have compiled dozens if not hundreds of biographies and have never encountered as many secondary sources that mention tattoos. Thus, since it our responsibility to summarize secondary sources, I have incorporated some of them in the article. Are you asking that I don't summarize secondary sources, if the emphasis seems peculiar?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • May I ask whether you noticed that the United States military considers his video game proclivity notable and did you notice the number of distinct secondary sources that mention his tattoes?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm basing my decision off the feeling I get from reading one section. If I believe a single section falls short of WP:WIAFA, I'm going to assume the rest of the article needs work as well. To sum up my oppose, I feel the article is filled with trivial, insignificant and encyclopedic details that make for a choppy article. I'm sorry I have to object, but I feel this needs quite a bit of work. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The personal section is largely a section of trivia that has risen to an encyclopedic level by virtue of secondary sourcing. Is it possible you could comment on the main body of the article. I can not improve the article if both objections ignore the main body of the article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:29, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • (ec)Is sourcing from major newspapers a valid objection? If so almost all of my WP:FAs should be sent to WP:FAR. Please compare the sources here with my other two biographical WP:FAs (Richard Cordray and Tyrone Wheatley)--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, but an FA should not be written entirely based on newspaper snippets. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Like I said, I have previously written two bio FAs almost entirely from newpaper snippets. See the examples given.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Indeed. Though I'm currently discussing this article. –Juliancolton | Talk 05:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • O.K., I officially do not understand this point. My last bio FA was written about a year ago. It was almost entirely from newspapers. Are you saying Richard Cordray would fail now because of some new consensus against newspaper sourcing?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • We're discussing this article. –Juliancolton | Talk 15:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • In the abstract, is there a new consensus against newspaper sourcing?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Please read what I said. There's no rule against citing newspapers, but citing exclusively newspapers is not generally a good idea. –Juliancolton | Talk 04:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • TTT, sorry, if "free agent" is used in a specialist sense here, a link is appropriate. I should have checked out the target, and have just done so. The other issue is that the reader shouldn't have to check out the link target to have a basic understanding of the meaning of the text here, so why not add within commas (or parentheses) on the spot, "(eligible to sign with another franchise)"? I haven't looked at the sentence, too busy in RL for another 48 hours. Then I'm FREEEEE. Tony (talk) 06:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have seen free agent used like this in at least one hundred WP bios without any explanation beyond the link. Although your suggestion seems unusual, I have incorporated it. This article is probably 48 hours away from failing FA, so I am guessing you will not be able to elaborate on your thoughts in time for me to get your insights to improve its content.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


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