The Smoking Nun

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Useight (talk) 18:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Mary (mother of Jesus)

Hi; I'm a little confused about your recent change to Mary (mother of Jesus). You removed the paragraph about Protestant objections to the Immaculate Conception. Is it really controversial that Protestants object to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? I can happily provide refs if that's really necessary. Also, you added a disputed tag, but without any indication of what in the section you wish to contest. Please feel free to raise whatever questions you have on the talk page, and then add back the disputed tag. Tb (talk) 02:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Protestants do not "object" to the Immaculate Conception, at least not the ones I know of. They believe in the Immaculate Conception, but there may be some disagreement in just what it means. In fact early Protestants, such as Martin Luther, were more devoted to Mary than Catholics are, and so Lutherans believe in the Immaculate Conception. I think the confusion, or the disagreement is that Catholics believe Mary was without sin, and Protestants do not believe she was without sin, but this does not mean they "object" to the Immaculate Conception. As far as the dispute tag, it contridicts the other sections, there are not citations, and it seems to me to be original research. I don't have time right now to address these many problems in the section tonight.--The Smoking Nun (talk) 03:08, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Protestants do not believe that Mary was conceived without sin, and therefore they believe that the Immaculate Conception is a quite incorrect doctrine. Believing in the Immaculate Conception is not the same thing as being devoted to Mary. The Orthodox also object to the doctrine, believing it either false or badly stated; they simply do not accept it. And yet the Orthodox are certainly very devoted to Mary. In any case, you're free to disagree; I'm just requesting that you make your dispute clear on the talk page before adding a disputed tag to the article. Tb (talk) 03:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The RC doctrine of the "immaculate" means "without sin", it does not mean "honored." You're simply incorrect here. I'm getting the references for the section now, btw. Tb (talk) 03:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Protestants all (officially) agree that Mary was the "Mother of God", though some object to that term for confused reasons. And the Luther, at least, agreed that Mary did not commit actual sin. For some of the other reformers, it's not so clear, and for present-day Protestants, I think it's actually uncommon that they believe this. But the Immaculate Conception is a very specific thing and does not just mean "thinks highly of Mary". The whole point of that section of the article is to be careful and precise about the different doctrines and their different meaning. Tb (talk) 04:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

"I've come across new information" is not relevant unless you are prepared to say what it is. Can I beg you again to please take your objection to the talk page? That's what it's there for. Just spell out what you think is wrong, and why, and a broader discussion can be had. There's no rush. Tb (talk) 04:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)