Schlcoh

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Hello, Schlcoh! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! The Evil Spartan (talk) 11:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: edit a page • upload and use images Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Pages needing attention • Peer review Miscellaneous User name • User pages • Talk pages Clean up: General - Spam - Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

February 2008

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Khazars. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. The Evil Spartan (talk) 11:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I have responded on my talk page. I have not reported you for 3RR violation this time, as you are a new user, but in the interest of fairness, I have reverted the page. Please do not revert again on this page within the next 24 hours without coming to a consensus on the talk page. The Evil Spartan (talk) 13:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You wrote:

Thanks for the response. Briangotts reverted at 16:31 on 2/11, at 18:46 on 2/11 and 02:06 on 2/12. That's 3 times within 24 hours. I'll take it to the Talk Page, but, until we reach a consensus, whose version stays if both parties find the other one's completely unacceptable?? (I think mine has the merit of making the minimum number of claims.) Schlcoh (talk) 14:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:3RR. My first edit on 2/11 is not a revert at all, it was a restoration of the text with addition of sources. I only reverted 2 times on 2/11. Before you cast accusations you should at least familiarize yourself with the relevant policies, particularly in the definition of a revert.

Moreover, at this point I have no idea what your problem is with the text. Golden is a highly-regarded expert in this field and he clearly states that Jews fleeing Byzantine persecution went to Khazaria. Your specific problems raised in the edit summaries appear to be caused by your lack of familiarity with standard citation formats. The article is clearly referenced both in the footnote and in the reference section at the end of the article. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Since you wrongly accused me of 3RR on another user's talk page, I request that you acknowledge your error there. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 21:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Khazar

I'm going to resist the temptation to simply revert the recent edits on this article, but could you please explain what you're trying to do on the Talk page rather than in the edit summary? You are editing perfectly legitimate citations and passages without making the article better, while you're making accusations in the edit summaries that I can't reconcile with the edits themselves. --Leifern (talk) 15:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I notice User:Briangotts has reverted again. I'm not happy with his simplification of the history as it seems POV, so I have copied a paragraph from a section I found on the History of the Jews in Turkey page along with it's cites and added it as a note to the disputed sentence. I also merged his note with it (for neatness) to keep his cites. I can live with his version if it has the note as a qualifier and if he reverts the note it would be an obvious case of POV pushing. I spent some 12 hours checking as many sources as possible and your version is definately the most accurate for a single sentence claim not to mention more encyclopaedic in structure. Have a look and feel free to comment if you think the note should be modified considering the large number of cites it now has and that the page is Khazar and not Byzantium history. Cheers. Wayne (talk) 18:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

It's always tempting to give up when facing editors who refuse to accept the sources that contradict their view. I just posted a heap of quotes from mostly Jewish sources that show persecution was not as bad as they try to make the article say. Although any perecution is bad it needs to be taken in the context of the time and unfortunately a lot of people assume the extreme persecutions Jews suffered in the west and especially during the last century was how is has always been. No matter how much I search for sources I can find few (there are some but they seem a minority) that back up their extreme view. Wayne (talk) 15:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW. That list of emperors they use is problematic. Almost all the sources say Justinian was the worst of the lot and he is not on their list and of the others, many sources say Leo III only "persecuted" the Jews for political reasons, "to ensure their loyalty to the empire". Wayne (talk) 15:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wayne, the issue that you are now ignoring is whether persecution by Byzantine authorities led to Jews fleeing to Khazaria. The sources overwhelmingly indicate that it did. The specific Emperors listed in the sources are mentioned in the article.

By "Justinian was the worst" I assume you mean Justinian I, as Justinian II is on the list. Justinian I, of course, lived a century before Khazaria existed as an independent polity. so why his absence makes our list "problematic" is beyond me. Moreover, you can debate Leo III's motivation for his persecution, but you cannot debate that the persecution led to Jews moving to Khazaria. I'm not convinced you even know what it is you are arguing about anymore. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Avoiding a revert war

I have no intention of engaging in a revert war with you, but you don't seem to leave me much choice. The version you favor is marginally POV, but worse; it's incoherent and inconsistent. When you refuse to discuss the matter on the talk page, it's hard to make any progress beyond reverting. Please try to resolve this constructively. --Leifern (talk) 15:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)