User talk:Peregrine Fisher/Archive 8

YAOI

The article is looking good. I corrected a couple of typos.

I was thinking of doing a 2-3 paragraph subsection next on YAOI. The term refers here to manga that deals with emotional and erotic interactions between men, usually drawn and read by women. It's a **very** controversial area -- see the YAOI entry -- and kicks off flame wars.

So I'd actually prefer NOT to do an entire and separate subsection on YAOI, but include it in the later sections.

Whaddya think?

Timothy Perper 03:06, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I like what your saying, and I have one request. I find it interesting that Japanese women read manga with androgynous characters, and I would like to hear about why. I read some of what Schodt (I think) said abou it, and the jury is out on why. I'd like to hear whatever the latest thinking on this is, even though I'm sure no one has proven anything. - Peregrine Fisher 03:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. This can go into the new Genres section (to come). There are lots of theories about this, and we can do a nice NPOV summary. Personally, I don't think anyone knows the answer. I'll start accumulating the references. Timothy Perper 12:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Housecleaning?

While I put together my notes on the Shonen section that comes next, it occurred to me --

1. Could you archive Sandbox, Manga, Sandbox2...Manga4? But find Kasuga's contribution first (Sandbox2?) and put it somewhere we can find it (see 4 below).

2. I've put a few corrections (fixed typos) into the main Manga article. I didn't put them into Combined. When you add a new section, do you transfer the *entire* Combined datafile or just the new stuff? If you transfer the entire datafile, then those corrections will get lost. Should I be correcting these typos on the main article or in Combined? These are minor changes, like italicizing bande dessinee and adding the Japanese for mangaka.

3. I sent you an email with an image we might want to use for the history before WW2 section. It's not very dramatic -- merely a page from a 1798 book, taken from Kern -- that has the kanji for manga. Maybe we don't want to waste bandwidth with it. It doesn't go in yet, so we don't have to decide right now. (We're going to have more pix later.) I'll send another one to illustrate the shonen material next.

4. How are we going to handle Kasuga's input, which is in one of the old Sandboxes, about manga before WW2?

4a. Before you archive the Sandboxes, can you find his additional stuff?

4b. Kasuga's added material doesn't have references, and lots of it is in Japanese. We can transfer the long Japanese quote into a footnote (I do NOT want to offend him and cut it) but the references may be tricky.

5. I'm going to create a Sandbox 5 for the shonen material we're starting to work on, and I'll update SDBXIndex.

6. In one of the later (old) sections, there's an image of Tohru from Fruits Basket. It has a stupid caption, but maybe we can move the picture up into the shojo section where we mention FB and redo the caption. Or would you like a new image for shojo? If I had my druthers, I'd put in a new image entirely and not use the Tohru image. It just isn't very interesting or informative.

7. The new Genres section. The more this takes shape in my thinking, the more I think it will be the second major section (history being the first). We can talk about YAOI, sexuality, and other stuff.

Lemme know what you think.

Timothy Perper 12:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Not sure what you mean by archive. If we just leave them where they are, they're pretty much archived.

2. Make the changes in Manga. I have been transferring only the new section, not all of combined. You can check for this type of thing using the "history" tab at the top of Manga and clicking around the old versions. Here is what you would find. It's pretty useful.

3. I got your email. If you want me to put it in, I can, but of course our readers won't be able to read it. It does bring up and interesting point, though. Images of works over 100 years old are in the public domain, so old stuff is good from a non-free media/wikipedia viewpoint.

4. Kasuga's stuff is at User:Timothy Perper/Sandbox3#Pre-WWII Manga. I think we can use his translation of Gendai Manga no Zentaizo]; p119 as if that's exactly what it says. I'm kinda working on Cave Junction, Oregon (my home town of 1,300 people) right now, so you can add it, or I'll do it later, probably this weekend.

5. Sounds good.

Maybe this one?

6. We can replace that image. Either we should find a fair use image to go with some ref that describes it, or we could use one of Wikipedia:Wikipe-tan (drawn by Kasuga) because they're free.

7. History and genres sound like the two major things that should be discussed to me. Then talk a bit about it's cultural importance and international influence, and we're done. - Peregrine Fisher 18:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good.

1. I'm not going to worry about it anymore.

2. Good. Changes go in Manga.

3. True, it's not readable... let's not use it.

4. Thanks. Cave Junction sounds like an interesting place... vineyards, natural caves, people who live in treehouses, cat zoos, timbering operations.

5. OK -- take a look at the very first drafty stuff I just put in. I'm not satisfied with how the cited manga are fitting in. It's too listy at the moment. Any suggestions?

6. I'll look for a new image, maybe a book cover. Wikipe-tan's a possibility, but she'd have to illustrate one or another point. Do you think we could ask him to illustrate the Manga Iconography article? It's in desperately bad shape and has no illustrations at all. Don't aks him yet; let's talk about it first.

7. OK.

Timothy Perper 21:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Page ref to put in

Here's a page and chapter reference to women of endurance from Hayao Kawai's book in the manga article: Chapter 7, pp. 125-142.

I'm going to put it into the main article, but check if we're doing it the same way.

Timothy Perper 21:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment on Manga Talk

SeizureDog told us that we should add Wikilinks. I answered by saying Yes, we're getting to it.

A couple of days ago, he left me what I considered a quite offensive comment on my Talk page. He's not going to repeat that, but he will be on my case about anything he can find that he thinks is wrong, trivial or not. After all, he himself could have added the links, but he's trying to needle me. I didn't ask him to supply the links.

But I suppose there's a bright side -- he didn't find anything more serious than this. My guess is that he'll keep looking.

Anyway, a heads-up.

Timothy Perper 22:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Try not take things too personally. Without any body language to go by, comments ca seem pretty rude when they weren't intended that way. Sometimes they are meant to be rude, but that's just one of the beauties of our adversarially created encyclopedia. - Peregrine Fisher 22:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Good phrase for it -- adversarially created...

How do I archive my talk page the way you just did?

Timothy Perper 22:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

First create an archive area at the top of your page.

{{archive box|

*[[/Archive|Archive 1]]

}}

Then, once you save the page, there will be a link to the archive in red. Cut all the comments you want to archive, and paste them into this new page, then save. Also save your talk page with the comments now removed. Ask me you need me to explain any part of it in more detail. - Peregrine Fisher 22:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll try it. Cautiously. Timothy Perper 23:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It worked, but I didn't get the box on the top. I guess I didn't save something.

I added some page refs and wikified a few things... onwards, ever onwards... Timothy Perper 05:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Did you know that all the TP/Sandbox pages can be found using Google? They all come up with the wiki URL, and then give the full text of all of these articles. Private they are not. Amazing... I found them by accident, while Googling Batman and Asamiya, and one of the user pages came up where I'd mentioned both of them. Timothy Perper 11:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed that. Your sandboxes have a higher google rank than a lot of official stuff associated with our sources. Gotta love wikipedia. If you don't want people finding them with google, you can blank the pages, and in a few days they'll dissapear from google. They can be brought back at any time using the history function. - Peregrine Fisher 15:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Good grief. That's a combination of sheer awe at the unexpected lunacy spawned by modern technology and laughter. But no, I'm not that paranoid. Now, if we were trading secret plans of the Atlantean Conspiracy of Little Green Men, it'd be different.

But, in the meantime, I found a couple of references for Batman: Children of the Dream being issued first by Kodansha and then by DC Comics. What I couldn't find was something to substantiate a story I heard that the project had the OK from DC Comics from the outset. If you have time, could you try to find something about that?

I'm going to go through my lists of manga and make sure I'm getting the major shonen titles. My problem is that I tend to think of shonen not as manga but as anime. For example, in the paragraph about giant robots (surely one of Japan's great contributions to transnational pop culch), I instantly thought of Gundam. Who else has giant robots as, well, giant? But it's anime. Probably the finest (in my opinion) robot creatures are from Zoids, but that's also anime. So I'm going to check the lists.

More later. Timothy Perper 16:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I mostly read manga by watching anime. I couldn't find anything on Batman/Kodansha. Apparently, Gigantor started as a manga. - Peregrine Fisher 17:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

A few corrections; almost ready to move stuff out

I made a few corrections for typos and added a missing reference in the Manga article itself. I also wikified a few things. Nothing major.

Something I don't know how to do: the caption of the Sazae-san pic misspells Machiko Hasegawa's name. It's not Michiko, but Machiko. That was my fault, BTW. Can you fix it?

I posted another notice, or whatever it's called, on the Manga talk page that we're going to move several sections and delete one from the old Manga article. Can I hand that over to you? Section 4.1 Dojinshi goes to the Dojinshi entry, and Section 6, International Influences, goes to Manga Outside Japan, where I already posted something asking if anyone minded. No one has, so we're ready to move. Section 7, Language, can be deleted.

Manga Outside Japan is a very poor article, with a great many non-referenced statements. It's a poster child for Wiki-NONVERIFIABILITY. It isn't going to get any worse if we move Section 6 into it. In fact, if anyone *is* going to clean it up (not me!!!) it'll be useful for them to have all this stuff in one place. You should probably go into the Talk page and say we moved the material.

I don't see any real reason to wait any more about this.

Timothy Perper 19:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Even though we notified people on the talk page, I think there will be a bit of complaining over these changes. Why don't we move/delete the sections as we add the info that will be replacing them. In particular, I imagine removing Dōjinshi without adding something that discusses it will cause an edit war, which we want to avoid. - Peregrine Fisher 19:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I added another note to the Manga talk page about this, raising the question directly about length. I don't know if it will work, but I hope it does. Timothy Perper 19:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Do me a favor? The Manga page lists a change(?) -- something about "curly quotes" -- that I don't understand at all. When I scanned over the before and after from History, I couldn't find any changes... can you look and see what gives? Is this some obscure Wiki-principle I don't know anything about? Timothy Perper 22:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There are two kinds of quotes. Ones that don't differentiate between the beginning and end of a sentence, and "curly quotes" which look different at each end. Here is a image that shows both. Some word processors put them in, and if you're using a word processor, that's probably where they came from. Apparently they don't work well with all web browsers. - Peregrine Fisher 22:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The things that exercise the human imagination never cease to amaze me. My browser doesn't like curly quotes either. However, my copy of Microsoft Word does. Anyway, SeizureDog says get rid of the International stuff from the manga article (see manga talk page). Timothy Perper 22:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Just sent you a pic

I just sent you an email with a jpeg of Oscar Francois de Jarjayes by Riyoko Ikeda. This is quintessential shojo art from the early period, and one of the most famous characters in all shojo manga. It should go next to the section on Ikeda and Bersaiyu no Bara. Lemme know if anything is wrong with the image. Timothy Perper 00:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

How about Wikipe-tan for a header picture?

Don't these articles usually have an image at the very start? How about using Wikipe-tan, the standing one, way up at the beginning? With some kind of caption... Timothy Perper 01:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The pic you sent me is a tiff.

I'm thinking wikipe-tan at the top would be a good idea. Not sure what we'd say. "Wikipe-tan is a manga-style mascot of wikipedia"? - Peregrine Fisher 01:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Just sent you an email about that. "Wikipe-tan, Wikipedia's own manga heroine, drawn for Wikipedia by Kasuga." The email explains more why I think that wording is good. We can't use the word "mascot" withiut being sexist, and that we want to avoid at all costs.

It wasn't a Tiff when I saved it... I'll check and send another tmw.

Timothy Perper 02:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I added the image. I didn't include Kasuga's name, because they're a WP editor. I think it's fround upon to mix editors in with the articles. They can click on it for more info though, and find out the artist that way. - Peregrine Fisher 02:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

So SeizureDog blew a fuse and removed it. I quote: "How many times do I have to remove this stupid Wiki-tan? >:( SHE'S NOT MANGA PEOPLE. She's a DRAWING not a COMIC. I mean come on. The semantics are pretty clear here."

I'm beginning to get a sense of this guy's modus operandi. He screams and yells and throws tantrums, like this one, until he gets his way. Well, in this case, I'm not going to fight him -- the issue isn't worth the trouble to call his game. Leave Wikpe-tan off. I think she's cute (= kawaii), and I also think it's a rather elegant gesture to use a drawing made by a Japanese artist in manga style specifically for Wikipedia to illustrate the manga article on Wikipedia. But this is not the arena I want to confront our noisy colleague (?) SeizureDog.

I'm quite sure he'll read this, though without saying anything. One of these days, he'll try his scream/rant/rave technique about an issue that IS important -- and then I won't walk away. I do not like -- and nothing about Wiki-civility says I have to like -- temper tantrums. Nor do I admire this kind of bullying. But this is not the arena to confront the issue.

So leave it off, and we'll find another image. There's no hurry about picking it.

Oh well... life is strange.

Timothy Perper 05:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly enough about it to do anything, either. If it's ever over something we feel is important, we can do some reverting. It's a classic wikipedia maneuver. You can only edit for so long before someone forces you to do it. It's too bad WP didn't keep track of its very earliest edits, I bet some of the very first edits involve a revert war. - Peregrine Fisher 06:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Then we can pick the battlefield. You're probably right about the early revert wars. Come to think of it, that sounds like an anime. Timothy Perper —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 06:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, moving along here... I sent you another possibility, an enlargement of the kanji for "manga" from Kern's 1798 example. It has a Japanese minimalist quality to it that I like.

The problem I'm trying to sidetrack is (sigh) another damn edit war. Let's say we pick an image of Sailor Moon for the opener -- screams and howls -- she has her own website -- we don't need her -- she's not representative -- so we put up Naruto -- more screams and howls -- he's not representative either -- he has his own entry -- so we put up Me-hyou -- no one's ever heard of her -- she's HENTAI -- she's not representative -- so we put up Hamtaro -- THAT'S FOR CHILDREN! -- that's not representative...

No matter what SINGLE image we select, it's not representative, and half the people we're dealing with will not like it. So, here's the oldest known example of the word itself. It's representative by definition.

Also, it's artsy because it uses the word "calligraphy."

Whaddya think?

Timothy Perper 07:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem with putting up any image less than 100 years old, is that it's fair use (except for wikipe-tan). To meet the requirements, it's supposed to go next to the text that discusses it, and the intro doesn't really have room to talk about an individual manga enough to justify fair use. If your wondering, for articles on individual manga, this isn't a problem because it's used for indentification (which is actually another sticky wicket).

I kinda like the kanji. If its from 1798, then it's pubic domain. What would the caption be?

I got the oscar.jpg. Looks good. I'll add it tomorrow. - Peregrine Fisher 07:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I like the kanji also. The caption is in the picture itself -- I lettered it in using Appleworks (I use a Mac). If the image has to go next to what it discusses (which makes sense from rhetorical and from fair use viewpoints), then there ain't much we can use for the introduction. But -- heh, heh -- the opening sentence of the introduction reads "Manga (漫画?) listen (help·info) is the Japanese word for comics." And here's the word in calligraphy right next to the sentence! We can even change the opening sentence to read "Manga (漫画?) listen (help·info) is the Japanese word for comics (see illustration for an early calligraphic example of the word)." Will that cover it?

If you want the picture without the internal caption let me know and I'll send another copy.

Yeah, Oscar is impressive.

Down the line -- that means in Large Section Two on genres and stylistics, or whatever we end up calling it -- I'm going to suggest five illustrations. They will show the five major modalities for portraying girls and women in manga, and are mentioned in one of our own manga papers (which I'll cite in NCOI fashion). Oscar is an example of the "utsukushii" modality, used for what Hayao Kawai calls "women of will." In those portrayals, a combination of power and beauty come to the forefront. Ths pic of Oscar is a very good example. But more on that later.

I'm going to add a reference to the Manga article and keep looking for increasingly tiny glitches (like getting all the references ** after** the punctuation mark).

Timothy Perper 14:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

More problems

SeizureDog over on Manga talk is saying he wants to move our various sections to Manga history and to the shojo and shonen articles. The shonen part isn't even up yet, but he wants to move it.

You can read my answer to him over there. I'm not going to work on this any further until this issue is settled. I won't work on an article with someone threatening me over my shoulder.

Timothy Perper 15:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, SeizureDog may calm down, or he may not. When you mentioned that the article is now 5500 words, is that the whole thing, our stuff and the old stuff as well? Can you get a count for only our new material?

OK, I'm going to add that reference.

Timothy Perper 19:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

From the intro to just before Gekiga, it's 2838 words. - Peregrine Fisher 19:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Why don't you post that, right after my estimate of 2900 words. I copied our section to Word and it does a word count. OK, we don't have any major problems here. Timothy Perper 20:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Back to image for opening section

How about I remove the lettering from the kanji for manga illustration I sent, and we can add the caption "The word manga in Japanese calligraphy from 1798."

Then it illustrates the opening section.

Don't bother adding the more exact page count. SeizureDog seems to have cooled off a bit. Timothy Perper 20:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I can remove the text from the bottom if you want. One hiccup is that image should really go with the 1798 explanation in the history section, to be of the most use. Mayb we could do something like featured article B movie does, with a big caption. We mention that manga are (usually) black and white comics in the intro. Maybe that can be our hook. I just did a huge Flckr free image search for manga, and I don't really see anything that works, or isn't incorrectly licensed. - Peregrine Fisher 21:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's let the discussion go on for a little longer -- I like your idea of using Hokusai. I don't know what the first tankobon was. Timothy Perper 11:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

More Shonen material

I added more material to the shonen section on Sandbox5, and once again would like your opinion. My sense is that it can be edited down and some examples removed. Whaddya think? The references will come later.

Timothy Perper 11:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

How about we move stuff?

How about we move section 6 from the manga article into Manga Outside Japan?

We've got 4 people in agreement and no objections, and the notification has been up for some time. I think we're ready to go.

Timothy Perper 18:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm outta here

I can't do any more work on the manga article. It's like trying to fly a small plane through a sky filled with enemy fighter pilots. The last straw was today, Kasuga's edits on the article, made without any plan or consultation, just zappo, out of the clear blue sky. These people are just throwing bricks in a pile, hoping they magically become a castle -- and they won't.

Working with you has been a great pleasure. Unlike every other editor I've encountered on Wikipedia, you have been professional, serious, and generous with your time and patience. You have also understood the need for careful referencing, for detailed examination of what is said to avoid OR and POV statements, and a genuine willingness to work with another person. These are great and rare talents, and I am very glad we have been able to work with each other.

But I cannot write the kind of article we spoke of earlier -- one that could make it to FA status or even just plain Good. Too many people are pulling bits and pieces down, carrying them off for their own purposes, and acting like sullen teenagers when they're told not to do that.

When I started this project, I wondered why so few senior level professionals (like me, I say without false modesty) seemed to be involved in writing Wikipedia articles. Now I can see why -- the environment is like a high school schoolyard with kids screaming and yelling and pushing. If any of them worked for me in a real job, I'd fire them on the spot. But Wikipedia offers them a safe haven, where they can hide under adolescent pseudonyms and make believe they're Big People with real authority and knowledge. Maybe my analogy to fighter planes was wrong -- more like swarms of mosquitoes, but without the mosquito's excuse that it's merely trying to get a meal.

I have fulfilled my final promise to Kasuga, of restoring some material that had been removed, but he simply removed it. Well, anyone can edit Wikipedia, meaning anyone can throw bricks in a pile hoping that they will magically become a castle. That ends my responsibility to Kasuga. He put his unreferenced paragraph way up at the beginning, like a teenager sneaking up to the head of the line. I don't have the time or interest to teach such kids how to behave.

So, as I said on my comment on the Manga talk page, Sayonara. God be with you -- and I'm glad we were able to work together. It has been a genuine pleasure.

Timothy Perper 16:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see you go. Manga is much improved, and it has been a pleasure working with you. - Peregrine Fisher 16:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

An Award

		WPOR Award: Sponsored in part by the Big Gold Dude.
		You are hereby granted this shiny object for all your hard work at WikiProject Oregon! Thanks for taking care of some image requests and improving Cave Junction. Maybe someday you will join us at the project. Aboutmovies 18:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again for all your hard work on the images! Keep up the good work! Katr67 17:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Ain't dead yet

I didn't quite disappear completely. Only partially.

I was going to send you one of those Barnstar thingies, but who knows how? Not me...

Anyway, take a look at the my new entry on my user page. Is there any way to put an editorial page into this Wiki newspaper that they -- meaning someone I know not whom -- is putting together? Heh-heh.

It ain't over yet, as Yogi Berra said, I mean, 'til it's over.

Timothy Perper 00:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting idea. You can ask them at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost. I don't know what they'll say, but I think an editorial section is a great idea. Don't give up on us just yet. - Peregrine Fisher 00:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Farscape

The articles were all redirected, without even a mention on the talk page. They have been restored, as the consensus was quite clearly against redirecting. FYI. --Ckatz^chat_spy 05:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, some editors don't listen to the discussion if it doesn't say what they want it to. - Peregrine Fisher 06:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Consensus includes the viewpoints of the community at large, as well as the specific discussion. I'm not going to force it on this set of articles, but sooner or later, one article per episode will no longer be the norm. -- Ned Scott 06:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I bothered to establish notability on several of those episodes, which were apparently redirected. Probably no one is going to do it anytime soon, but notability can be established for a bunch more of them, too. It's one thing to redirect when there is no hope of establishing notability, another thing when it isn't happening fast enough for certain users. 10s or maybe 100s of episode pages that can have their notablility established have been redirected in this latest push. I used to feel that all eps should stay. I've come to the opinion that all eps that can be shown to be notable should stay. There seems to be a group of people who think all eps should go. It would be nice if they would also come to the middle ground where eps that can have their note established get to stay. - Peregrine Fisher 06:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Well.. you do have a point there. We need to avoid this "all or nothing" mentality, much of which is the result of frustration and such. -- Ned Scott 07:26, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Did you know

On 5 October, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Cave Junction, Oregon , which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Allen3 ^talk 23:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Supernatural s01e15.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:Supernatural s01e15.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Supernatural s01e16.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:Supernatural s01e16.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Supernatural s01e17.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:Supernatural s01e17.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Supernatural s01e18.png)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Supernatural s01e19.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:Supernatural s01e19.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Supernatural s01e20.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:Supernatural s01e20.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Sing A Long by Pete Seeger album cover.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Sing A Long by Pete Seeger album cover.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Even Stevens episode 11.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Even Stevens episode 11.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Even Stevens episode 14.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Even Stevens episode 14.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Even Stevens episode 16.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Even Stevens episode 16.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Even Stevens episode 17.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Even Stevens episode 17.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Even Stevens episode 19.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Even Stevens episode 19.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Even Stevens episode 46.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Even Stevens episode 46.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Swc s01e04.JPG)

Thanks for uploading Image:Swc s01e04.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 epiosode 12.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 epiosode 12.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 epiosode 13.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 epiosode 13.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 epiosode 9.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 epiosode 9.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 15.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 15.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 16.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 16.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 17.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 17.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 3.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 3.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 7.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 7.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:The Suite Life of Zack and Cody s01e13.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:The Suite Life of Zack and Cody s01e13.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:The Suite Life of Zack and Cody s01e20.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:The Suite Life of Zack and Cody s01e20.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Evens Steven S01E02.JPG)

Thanks for uploading Image:Evens Steven S01E02.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Evens Steven S01E03.JPG)

Thanks for uploading Image:Evens Steven S01E03.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Evens Steven S01E04.JPG)

Thanks for uploading Image:Evens Steven S01E04.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Evens Steven S01E05.JPG)

Thanks for uploading Image:Evens Steven S01E05.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Evens Steven S01E06.JPG)

Thanks for uploading Image:Evens Steven S01E06.JPG. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Evens Steven S01E07.JPG)

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Farscape

Please visit the Farscape issue when you can. Thanks. Matthew 12:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

giggles and offers this diff [1] --Jack Merridew 13:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Episodes

Revert waring puts you at a disadvantage. Would you mind providing the diffs regarding your latest post? Evidence is more useful than comments. You may start a new section. -- Cat ^chi? 01:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

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Re:Gossip girl pilot

From the Talk:Pilot (Gossip Girl) page:

I can see that people have been adding music to the episode pages - please do not do this! See here: Wikipedia:Television episodes#Things to avoid. An article about television episodes is only supposed to contain:

• A brief summary of the episode's plot (see below)
• How the episode was received by critics
• Information on production and broadcasting of the episode
• Real-world factors that have influenced the work or fictional element.

This info is also from the WP:EPISODE page. Thank you — *Hippi ippi 05:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The info is also unreferenced, and do you think it's necessary and encyclopedic? I think it's fancruft. If you beg to differ, I'd love to hear it. — *Hippi ippi 03:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

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Accelerate (Smallville)

A Proposed Deletion template has been added to the article Accelerate (Smallville), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice explains why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you endorse deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add {{db-author}} to the top of the page. Oo7565 22:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

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Want a real messy situation? Hoo-hah.

Visit the Xi Jinping page and read the history before my last change.

Xi, who will probably be the next leader of China, as in the world's largest country China, was called a "clodhopper" on his Wikipedia page, "Personal Life" section. This piece of, how shall we say, non-diplomacy, made it into Newsweek. So I removed the "Personal Life" section of his page, which had no citations at all, I mean NONE, and was all gossip.

I also put it on the living persons biography noticeboard.

More details on the Xi Jinping page, including page refs to Newsweek. I worry about people who do this kind of thing. I mean, do they live in the same world as I do? Well, whatever... it's gone now. And too late, too...

Timothy Perper 17:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Too bad it made it into Newsweek, but it highlights what we need to be looking for. It's hard to say what type of person adds that type of info, but WP is written by all sorts. There are studies that suggest the number of edits and editors is on the decrease lately. My guess is that it's our increased emphasis on including citations, which requires more research (not OR) on the parts of editors, as well as technical knowlege concerning how to add them. If you look at featured articles from 2004, you can find ones without any citations, people just read the article and decided if they believed it, I guess. Now, you almost can't find a FA with less than 30 citations. In my opinion, we won't be able to create a really good encyclopedia until we find a way to make adding citations easier. I'm glad to hear that you're still editing, keep up the good work. I just got a new job so I'm not editing as much lately, but drop me a line if you want to team up on anything. - Peregrine Fisher 02:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Mon Calamari Cruiser

If you want to take another look at the lead, the editor who primarily worked on the article, and an editor friend of mine both expanded and improved the lead, so you can take a look and see if it is pass worthy yet. :) Judgesurreal777 17:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Metallic dragons (Dungeons & Dragons)

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More Weirdness

Hi, Peregrine,

More chaos and weirdness. Take a look at the Rig Veda discussion page, where I lost patience with some flame warring editors. I was looking for information about the Rig Veda as background for understanding CLAMP's manga RG Veda. Ha, ha.

Timothy Perper 08:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Farscape season 1 episode 5.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Farscape season 1 episode 7.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Farscape season 1 episode 8.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Farscape season 1 episode 9.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Farscape season 1 episode 3.jpg)

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One of weirdest examples I have found so far

Examples of what, you ask? Of Wiki-weirdness.

Go over the the "Politics of Harry Potter" page and find the "Social Activism in Harry Potter" section and read, nay, study, the first paragraph. A true gem. I also put a comment on the talk page saying I'd delete this in a few days (I was the one who put up the "original research" notice). There ought to be something in the Wiki Newsletter that lists Crackpot of the Week awards.

Timothy Perper 21:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Classic OR. A lot of OR is true but uncited, but in this case I think it's just plain incorrect. Good catch. People think a bit too much about HP. - Peregrine Fisher 22:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No content in Category:The Dead Zone episodes

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Category:The Dead Zone episodes, by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Category:The Dead Zone episodes has been empty for at least four days, and its only content has been links to parent categories. (CSD C1).

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Category:The Dead Zone episodes, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot 01:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Notification of Request for Arbitration "TTN, part Deux"

I've requested Arbitration regarding TTN's numerous edits to TV and other fiction articles, and included you as an "involved party" in the request. The request can be found at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#TTN.2C_part_Deux, and you should add a statement to the section somewhere under mine. Thanks. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 21:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Back on the Manga Ranch

Come over and take a look at the last few topic headers. We're recycling through old stuff again. Someone put up Wikipetan, she stayed for a while, then SeizureDog took her down, and round and round it goes. But, in the meantime, the idea resurfaced of using the kanji for manga as the lead image, and it looks like we have agreement. If I send you an email with an attachment of the kanji, can you put it up? I think I may have sent that before? But I'll make a new one if needed. Timothy Perper 22:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It may take a a little while to get it up, but feel free to send it to me. You can also upload it yourself. Just add {{PD-old}} to the image description page. - Peregrine Fisher 23:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Citing sources

FYI. I've posted a reply to your question in Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Do the Harvard citation templates allow pages that link to a single ref at the bottom. –panda (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

re:CJ

You seem to have pared down the section some, and mostly it refers to the specific term of hippies as the 1960's and 70's countercultural movement in America. If you're using it strictly in that sense, rather than applying it to contemporary individuals, then I think it's okay. That's the definition the hippies article gives. Of course, the best option is to attribute the name and the idea to a source. I'm sure the local paper probably had a few things to say about all the hippies moving into town back in the day. Finding it might be another thing though. Anyway, good luck on the nomination, and thank you for your kind words. VanTucky ^Talk 05:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Cool. I wan't really sure there would be a good solution, but now that you mention it, attributing who exactly describes them as hippies is the obvious way to go. I was a little too close to the subject, and couldn't see the forest for the trees. It's the obvious solution to NPOV problems. We report, you decide, I guess. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for popping over to the Manga talk page. The discussion is interesting, although I think Nihonjoe is taking much too strong an otaku position, the dedicated fan who wants it all as Japanese as possible. But we're talking about US marketing, not Japan. Timothy Perper (talk) 10:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)