Pakbelang

You will be held accountable for your lies and deceptions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:58A:102:6840:D93:8272:BEFC:82AB (talk) 16:18, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Pakbelang assisted on Yule after huge correction by me.(27.33.147.122)  :) I do not think you scare us. 14.201.79.23 (talk) 04:55, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

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Seems that you have already been here for some time, so this message corresponds to the motto "Better late than never." I noticed your contribution at Race (human categorization) and found it quite helpful. Thanks. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

You're welcomePakbelang (talk) 22:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

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Ian.thomson thanks for the heads up! --Pakbelang (talk) 08:33, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Salleh Mohd Nor moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Salleh Mohd Nor, does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. DGG ( talk ) 20:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@DGG: thanks for the move, I agree that this article needs more work before going live.

AfC notification: Draft:Salleh Mohd Nor has a new comment

I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at Draft:Salleh Mohd Nor. Thanks! DGG ( talk ) 06:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Much appreciated!--Pakbelang (talk) 08:42, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

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A Famosa

Hello
You moved this page to a new title in September 2020 without discussion: This has been challenged and has now been reverted as an undiscussed move. If you have good reasons why this page should be moved to a new title, you should open a discussion via WP:RM and present them. Then if there is general agreement the page will be moved. I would suggest you look at WP:TITLE for the kinds of titles that are suitable, and the kinds of reasons pages can or should be moved. Regards, Moonraker12 (talk) 15:47, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the headsup and explanation Moonraker12, I'll look into this. --Pakbelang (talk) 02:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

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This is a file from Malay wikipedia. It's not a priority for me. Pakbelang (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Tendentious editing on contentious articles

The term "hoax", and the reference to supporters, here and here, seem to be your own views. There's nothing like it in your sources. Please edit these contentious articles more carefully, and keep the discretionary sanctions for American politics[1] in mind. Bishonen | tålk 14:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC).

Thanks, Bishonen, here's a source that references the "hoax": https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html --Pakbelang (talk) 22:32, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Pakbelang. RealClearPolitics is rather a dubious source, though. See discussion here. Also, it doesn't mention anything about "supporters" calling it a hoax; the author of the article — an opinion piece — sounds (to my ears) more like he's creating the term "the Charlottesville Hoax", which he puts quote marks round. So it's a weak source. But the big problem is that you didn't use any source that talked about a "hoax". That's not good for these very high-profile and controversial pages such as Donald Trump and Racial views of Donald Trump; they need more care than your average article, and better sourcing. Please consider this the next time you want to edit them. Bishonen | tålk 23:08, 15 February 2021 (UTC).

Thanks, Bishonen, these are all valid points. I agree that there needs to be a clearer reference in a more reliable source for this so-called "hoax" to be cited. I have yet to find one. --Pakbelang (talk) 23:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions violation Donald Trump

You have violated the 24-hour BRD page restriction with these edits [2] [3]. Please self revert this edit and bring any concerns to the talk page. I suggest you first review the reasons your edit has repeatedly been rejected. SPECIFICO talk 23:19, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I've self reverted the edit. Please also see comments from Bishonen, above, which I find to be valid. There were several assertions similar to the "hoax" claim arising from the second impeachment trial but I have yet to find them reported in reliable sources. --Pakbelang (talk) 00:01, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The editor who reverted you explained the problem. It's too bad you repeated it, but I am glad you now acknowledged it. SPECIFICO talk 00:06, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, SPECIFICO. There were two reverts, with these two explanations: (1) "The source doesn't mention hoax or Trump supporters" - I fixed this with my second edit which included a new citation (although see Bishonen's comments on that source). (2) the second revert stated: "Some Trump supporters claimed that the "very fine people" quote (not the interpretation) was a hoax that left out the second part of the statement. Not true per the source. The supporters did some "selective adding" by adding on something Trump said later, after further questions from reporters". I don't quite follow or agree with this comment but I'll leave it for the time being, at least until there is a clearer article in a reliable source.--Pakbelang (talk) 00:14, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Salleh Mohd Nor has been accepted

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Fiddle Faddle 23:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

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Alexbrn (talk) 11:10, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The Menraq identity

Hi Pakbelang. I've reached out to Prof. Alberto Gomes by email, but I'm posting here for privacy's sake. Also, I'm not sure how I should include the contents of the email in the talk page because I've included a few key diagrams to explain my points. He said it's best to make some time for a proper conversation to understand the Menraq as this is a contentious issue among anthropologist due to its complexity. The professor also highlighted 3 papers that he authored; (I supposed) as a suggestion to further look into the subject matter beforehand. Here's part of our conversation (details removed for privacy's sake):-

Dear Professor Alberto Gomes,

I hope this email finds you well in the midst of this pandemic.

I'm an occasional Wikipedia editor during my spare time, and would like to seek your expertise in regards to the Menraq people. There has recently been a discussion at (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Semang#Term-%22Menraq%22) concerning the definition of the Menraq people. One Wikipedia editor claimed that your book "Modernity and Malaysia: Settling the Menraq Forest Nomads" seems to suggest that the term Menraq is synonymous or interchangeable with Semang. However, I've found this a little odd to make a comparison between the Menraq (if viewed as the entire Semang group) to be compared with the Semai people in a chapter, 'Give or Take: A comparative analysis of demand sharing among the Menraq and Semai of Malaysia' that you've contributed in 'Ethnography & the Production of Anthropological Knowledge'. Unless the Menraq refers to a specific ethnicity instead of a collective group.

On the other hand, in (https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/minr1238#acc-names) it appears that there are 3 Semang groups that do not come under the Menraq-Batek category.

(included a screenshot)

So it is unclear of who the Menraq could actually be:-

(included a few diagrams that I've made for further explanation)

Your insights on this subject of the identity of the Menraq is very much appreciated.

Thank you for your time in reading this email. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Best regards,

Thank you for your email and all is well with me in these perilous times. As you can appreciate, I have lots to say in relation to your query and if I were to write up my response this will be a very long email. Instead I am wondering whether we could make a time for a voice chat via Whatsapp or any of the platforms. If you are ok with it, my mobile number is

The issue of Orang Asli ethnonyms is complex and complicated and as you are probably aware it has been a subject of debate among anthropologists who have worked among the people. I have published three papers on the ethnonym and the shaping of the Semai identity from different theoretical angles. See the following:

• 1988 ‘The Semai: The making of an ethnic group in Malaysia’. In Rambo, A.T., K. Gillogly and K.L. Hutterer (eds.) Ethnic Diversity and the Control of Natural Resources in Southeast-Asia. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan, p 99 –118.
• 1994 ‘Modernity and Semai ethnogenesis’. In Gomes, A (ed.) Modernity and Identity: Asian Illustrations. Melbourne: La Trobe University, p 177–191
• 2009 ‘Ethnicization of the Orang Asli: A Case-study on the Semai’, In Multiethnic Malaysia: Perspectives on Past, Present and Future. (edited by Lim Teck Ghee, Alberto Gomes, Azly Rahman). Petaling Jaya and Kuala Lumpur: Strategic Information and Research Development Centre and USCI University.

Take care and warm regards,

Alberto

Professor Gomes is very enthusiastic to have a conversation on the Menraq. Let me know how you would like to take it from there. *PS: In all seriousness, it's quite daunting for me as I'm not formally trained in this field of anthropology. So if we were to proceed, I'll need to do lots of reading beforehand to avoid looking like a clueless idiot for wasting the professor's time. 😬😨 -Jeblat (talk) 12:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Jeblat, thanks so much for pursuing this. I'm delighted that Prof Gomes has responded so constructively. Neither am I formally trained in anthropology. It is now clear that his views are not as straightforward as I had imagined (i.e. it is not as simple as Menraq = Semang). In terms of Wikipedia, we need to be guided by published sources but I definitely encourage you to engage further with Prof Gomes in a less formal way. From what I have seen of your extensive edits here, you're certainly already well read and definitely not a clueless idiot! Anyhow, it would be wonderful if your interactions with Prof Gomes can lead to additions/refinements of the relevant Wikipedia articles. Editors such as yourself are what makes WP such an amazing initiative. All the best! Pakbelang (talk) 14:03, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

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Thanks, good point. --Pakbelang (talk) 06:31, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

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Bahasa Melayu

Why you change article about Malaysian language to back name? If you see many source that language change to "Standard Malay" & at Malaysia also said "Bahasa Melayu Standard" or "Bahasa Melayu Moden". You can see new Malaysian book texts it say "Malay" and not again said "Malaysian". You also can see new format for SPM in "Malay" subject it also have questions about change to "old Malay" to "Standard Malay". I hope the article must change to "Standard Malay (Malaysian)" Malayan Law (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Please can you cite a few of those sources? Pakbelang (talk) 05:53, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/zsm

•https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/stan1306

•https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWkAXD1b5UM&feature=youtu.be

And Malaysia new texts book don't using "Bahasa Malaysia" again but "Bahasa Melayu" Malayan Law (talk) 05:20, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, @Malayan Law. The sources don't meet Wikipedia criteria. The first two are the official ISO sources. It is a common mistake to assume that wikipedia must follow official sources. Please see the article: Wikipedia:Official names. Youtube is not considered a valid source for Wikipedia. Plus, that video is not in English. For deciding article names in the English Wikipedia, we need to be guided by sources in English. Similarly with Malay-language textbooks, these are not valid sources in this regard. Pakbelang (talk) 05:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't know why that article is exists. Malaysia can't change name "Malay" to "Malaysian" because Constitution still said Malay language Malayan Law (talk) 05:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

You're right, the Constitution is clear. It just mentions "Malay", it does not mention "Malaysian language". I think the article already mentions that, right? Pakbelang (talk) 05:47, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@Malayan Law this source supports your suggestion to change the name of the article: "you cannot speak 'Malaysian'; the language is Malay." (Lonely Planet Malaysia Singapore Brunei, 2016) Pakbelang (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

RM

You should include your set of arguments from the preceding discussion[4] also in the RM, so the discussion can stand for itself. I won't !vote "support" yet because I haven't lost hope (again, yet) that I'll get an inspiration soon how to solve the problem with "true" common name "Malay (language)". But if this doesn't happen very soon, I will of course support the best argued existing proposal (which is yours). –Austronesier (talk) 19:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Moving article

Do you have discord. I want to discuss about moving this Malaysian language with you. Malayan Law (talk) 05:45, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I don't have discord. Feel free to pm me here: Special:EmailUser. Pakbelang (talk) 06:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think if we can change Malaysian language to Bahasa Malaysia because it never call Bahasa Malaysia today. I also agree with berita harian "who change name Bahasa Melayu to Bahasa Malaysia disregarding the Federal Constitution. Those who act in this way do not fully love the soul of this country and do not live the Pillars of the State". https://www.bharian.com.my/rencana/muka10/2020/08/718423/tiada-tolak-ansur-daulatkan-bahasa-kebangsaan .Malayan Law (talk) 06:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your views on this. Please see Wikipedia:RGW. Pakbelang (talk) 00:43, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Dewan bahasa dan pustaka also using term "Bahasa Melayu" and not "Bahasa Malaysia". Kementerian Pendidikan Malaysia also using term "Bahasa Melayu" Malayan Law (talk) 08:35, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

These points are valid for https://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahasa_Melayu_Malaysia. They're not so applicable for determining the title of the article in the English-language Wikipedia. Here we need to be guided primarily by English-language sources. Pakbelang (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I have questions. Why we not put flag of Singapore and Brunei in this Malaysian Malay article. They also using same standard Malayan Law (talk) 05:58, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Good idea. If there are references for that then I will support it. Pakbelang (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110819724.2.729/pdf Does this link can make source?Malayan Law (talk) 13:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe. It looks like a relevant article. But unfortunately I can't read the whole article, I don't have access. Anyhow, if you feel like making the edit, then go ahead (Wikipedia:Be bold). Pakbelang (talk) 15:08, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

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@Marchjuly Noted on both points. I'll try and locate/create freely licensed media. Thanks. Pakbelang (talk) 02:10, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

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Introduction to contentious topics

You have recently edited a page related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, a topic designated as contentious. This is a brief introduction to contentious topics and does not imply that there are any issues with your editing.

A special set of rules applies to certain topic areas, which are referred to as contentious topics. These are specially designated topics that tend to attract more persistent disruptive editing than the rest of the project and have been designated as contentious topics by the Arbitration Committee. When editing a contentious topic, Wikipedia’s norms and policies are more strictly enforced, and Wikipedia administrators have special powers in order to reduce disruption to the project.

Within contentious topics, editors should edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and:

• adhere to the purposes of Wikipedia;
• comply with all applicable policies and guidelines;
• follow editorial and behavioural best practice;
• comply with any page restrictions in force within the area of conflict; and
• refrain from gaming the system.

Editors are advised to err on the side of caution if unsure whether making a particular edit is consistent with these expectations. If you have any questions about contentious topics procedures you may ask them at the arbitration clerks' noticeboard or you may learn more about this contentious topic here. You may also choose to note which contentious topics you know about by using the {{Ctopics/aware}} template. Bishonen | tålk 14:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC).