User talk:Fram/Archive 37

Most translated books list

Hi! I see that you removed one of my additions to this list.

I added the children's storybook: My Hero is You. This book is written by Helen Patuck and developed by the Inter-Agency Standing Committee. INGOs, universities, organisations and individuals offered their support and the last couple of weeks the book is translated into more than 115 languages. [1]. The book is labelled as a story book officially. You can verify the translations and the nature of the publication through this link: https://interagencystandingcommittee.org/iasc-reference-group-mental-health-and-psychosocial-support-emergency-settings/my-hero-you</

To my understanding, the book falls under the description of the list:: This is a list of literary works (including novels, plays, series, collections of poems or short stories, and essays and other forms of literary non-fiction).

The book receives remarkable interest from the media around the world (CNN, Forbes, Malay Mail, The Hindu, BBC etc, I can share links if needed). Also, all translations are performed by volunteers that offered their translations. I will make a wikipedia page dedicated to the book in a few weeks but for now I think the book deserves a position on the list.

Looking forward to hearing from you, Best, MayaBachet (talk) 13:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

How many of these translations have actually been published by real publishers, sold in book shops, ... ? I.e. how many have had an actual, standard book release, instead of being a group of volunteers uploading the translation to a website? It looks (but I may be wrong here) that these translations (or at least some of them) have not been really published. Fram (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Fram, Thank you for the explanations of your concerns and the questions raised.

The book and translations are freely accessible (as is Wikipedia) and are published online. This should not be criteria of whether it can be defined as a book or not. As mentioned earlier, the book is officially labelled as story book. Sorry for my earlier limited and maybe confusing explanation on the translation process -it is not done by a group of volunteers. NGOs, Universities, international organisations and Governments supported translations. All translations underwent a formal clearance process by the Inter-Agency Standing Committee. If you google 'My Hero is You' you can see the global movement that has started since the book was published on April 9.

I hope the above explanations help. I strongly believe it should be part of the list as it fits all criteria mentioned and therefore I will re-add to the list. In the coming weeks, I will also make a wikipedia page dedicated to the storybook, you are very welcome to cross-check and help with this! MayaBachet (talk) 08:31, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Unblocked

I'm assuming you're following the discussion and so knew this was about to happen. I've unblocked, per overwhelming consensus here. I'll remove protection from this page in a minute so you can reply. Don't get too comfortable; there's a non-zero chance the WMF will ignore consensus and reinstate the block. Apologies in advance for my role in what your block log might look like a few days from now. And, of course, I cannot do anything about the desysop (I would if I could). Finally, I do not understand enough about the background of the interaction ban to attempt to rescind that; while it may or may not be valid, I'm not lifting it, and you'd be wise to assume it is still in force until someone conclusively lifts it.

Now is possibly not the right time for this, but I do think you'd be doing yourself, and en.wiki, and me, a favor by dialing back the aggression a couple of notches when dealing with other good faith editors (even Arbs!) with whom you disagree. There's also a non-zero chance that the edits in question will get brought up in a request for sanction at AN, ANI, ArbCom, or somewhere where it actually belongs. No comment, yet, on where I would come down on such a discussion.

I hope this gets resolved in good time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

p.s. I guess I had an unnoticed edit conflict with WMFOffice; I'd intended to leave this message at the same time I unblocked. Looks like *they* unblanked your page, which was cool of them. -Floquenbeam (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Cool of them? I dunno. I'm not sure if they even noticed that he's unblocked. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 19:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Shhhh!!! Don't tell them and it may all blow over! --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:59, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Fram, I suppose it's also possible you're "banned but unblocked", whatever that might mean, and whatever it would mean for you if you edit anyway. I'm just enacting a clear consensus to the limits of my userrights and ability; I'm not marketing this as solved. Exhuberant notes on my talk page notwithstanding, I still suspect this is going to end up with you, me, Bish, and possibly other admins (and maybe even crats, though I kind of doubt it) unhappy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
  • That is exactly the case. Indeed, if Fram was to edit at this point in time, he would be evading the office ban, likely resulting in the ban being extended. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 20:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
    • Hysterical. I'm so glad you're back editing Rob, you add so much love to this place. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

A (new) barnstar for you!

	The Resilient Barnstar
	Should be obvious enough why you have this... - SchroCat (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Welcome back!

Now then, time to get back to your scrupulous checks of a certain main page area. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	Despite your past civility issues, you deserve a barnstar because that’s just the state Wikipedia and the WMF are in now. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 05:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration

I've requested arbitration. The details are in the usual place, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Fram

Please don't respond here or there yet. We have to figure out how to let you participate. Maybe email the committee for now. Jehochman ^Talk 05:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Note: by now, this case was declined, and archived. starship.paint (talk) 13:38, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom courtesy notice

There is now a third Arbcom case, this time about the disputed Signpost article. You are not named as a party, but the article was about you, as I am sure you are aware. - SchroCat (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

3 July

Every day, we lose what the wrongly blocked would have given that day. And a little bit of our souls.

nb: User talk:Wehwalt#Sanddunes Sunrise

Franz Kafka: Das Schloss
... about alienation, unresponsive bureaucracy, the frustration of trying to conduct business with non-transparent, seemingly arbitrary controlling systems ...

Birthday of Franz Kafka today, article written by a now blocked again user, for whom the sunrise was originally designed in 2012 by a now banned user, - food for thought. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 3 July 2019

Remove this part "has not been endorsed by the English Wikipedia community". As the WMF is the owner of Wikipedia and obviously endorsed the ban and some WMF employees edit Wikipedia Abote2 (talk) 22:54, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done the "owner" and the "community" are not the same thing. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Reversion of office actions resolved by motion

The Arbitration Committee has accepted the WJBscribe case request under the title Reversion of office actions and resolved it by motion as follows:

Community advised Office actions are actions taken by Wikimedia Foundation staff, and are normally expected not to be reversed or modified by members of the community even if they have the technical ability to do so. In this case an office action was taken against Fram (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), who was blocked and whose administrator rights were removed by the role account User:WMFOffice in implementing a Partial Foundation ban ([1]). No similar action had been taken before on the English Wikipedia, and it proved highly controversial.

In response, Floquenbeam (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) both used their administrator user rights to unblock Fram ([2]). Floquenbeam's administrator rights were temporarily removed by WMFOffice (talk · contribs) ([3]). WJBscribe (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) used his bureaucrat rights first to restore Floquenbeam's administrator rights, and later to restore Fram's ([4]).

Although official WMF policy states that Unauthorized modifications to office actions will not only be reverted, but may lead to sanctions by the Foundation, such as revocation of the rights of the individual involved, JEissfeldt (WMF) (talk · contribs) indicated that the WMF would not implement further sanctions against the admins involved in reversing these actions ([5]). In recognition of that decision, and of the exceptional nature of the circumstances, the committee notes without comment this series of events. The community is advised that administrators and bureaucrats are normally expected not to act when they know they do not have all of the relevant facts, and that this is especially important with regard to office actions where those facts may be highly sensitive. As a general rule, wheel warring may be grounds for removal of administrative rights by the committee as well as by the WMF. Lack of sanctions under these exceptional circumstances should not set expectations around similar future actions.

For the Arbitration Committee, – bradv🍁 02:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Reversion of office actions resolved by motion

Arbitration case opened

The Arbitration Committee has accepted a case and the case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram. Evidence can be submitted for the next 14 days; see the case evidence page for instructions on how to submit evidence. For the arbitration committee, GoldenRing (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Fram case opened

The arbitration committee have opened a case on Fram at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram. This case is to be held in private, with evidence and workshop proposals to be submitted by email — see the evidence and workshop case pages for instructions. For the Arbitration Committee, GoldenRing (talk) 12:09, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Fram case opened

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1923 in Bosnia and Herzegovina

A tag has been placed on Category:1923 in Bosnia and Herzegovina requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Case timeline update

Please note that the case timeline has been changed. It is now anticipated that:

• Anonymised and summarised evidence will be prepared and sent to you by 14 August. This will also be posted publicly once you have had a chance to respond.
• The workshop phase will be held from 21 to 28 August. It is intended that this be held in public but this may yet change.
• The proposed decision will be posted in public by 7 September.

For the arbitration committee, GoldenRing (talk) 13:06, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Summary evidence

Fram, this note confirms that the summary evidence has now been passed to you by email. As I said in the email, the delay was on our side, so you can still have up to a week before we post publicly and open the workshop. Worm^TT(talk) 07:44, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Fourteen years of editing

Hey, Fram. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Chris Troutman (talk) 13:08, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Proposed decision posted

The proposed decision has been posted in an arbitration case in which you are involved. If you wish to comment, please ping me at meta and I will copy your comments across, or contact me by email. GoldenRing (talk) 15:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Return?

It may not be the end, or even the beginning of the end, but it might be the end of the beginning. I hope to see you back just as soon as the proposed decision (now with a passing majority) to vacate your pathetic ban is enacted. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 16:45, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Temporary injunction

The committee has resolved by motion that:

Remedy 1a of this decision and its supporting principles and findings are passing, and so Fram shall be unbanned immediately, without awaiting the close of the case. The remainder of the decision remains pending. As the status of Fram's sysop rights has not been decided, Fram is not to be resysopped during this interim period.

For the Arbitration Committee Worm^TT(talk) 16:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, the remainder of the case is still ongoing, but the committee has passed an immediate unban as that decision was unanimous. The WMF have confirmed by email that we can unban through our normal processes, you should be clear to return. Worm^TT(talk) 16:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

1. Welcome back. The puppy is happy to see this. KillerChihuahua 17:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
2. Welcome back. The work goes on, the cause endures. Haukur (talk) 17:38, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
3. Welcome back. A part of the farce concludes. ∯WBG^converse 17:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
4. Welcome back. I am so very sorry. If they could do this to you, they could do this to anyone. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
5. Welcome back. I imagine a few people at the WMF are going to be made very uncomfortable before this is all said and done. At least, I hope so. Lepricavark (talk) 17:54, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

   I certainly hope so. KillerChihuahua 18:02, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

   To feel uncomfortable, they'd have to care in the first place. 0% chance that anyone at WMF gives a shit. – Levivich 23:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

6. Welcome Back!!! Necromonger...We keep what we kill 17:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
7. Welcome back!!! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 18:00, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
8. Welcome back! I hope that this long farce hasn't left you too embittered. Jip Orlando (talk) 18:07, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
9. Welcome back, Fram! I came to like you more than before over the process, and expect you to keep watching over the quality of the project. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:36, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
10. Welcome back! Although we never crossed paths before this charade started, I was utterly shocked by the lack of due process in enacting your ban, and I'm happy that this bizarre sanction was vacated unanimously by ArbCom. You'll never get your three months back, but you did earn a lot of respect from many community members. — JFG ^talk 20:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
11. Welcome back. This whole thing has been an insipid farce, but at least it seems to be ending in a relatively sane way. Reyk _YO! 21:30, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
12. +1 — Ched (talk) 21:49, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
13. Welcome back! – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 22:16, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
14. Welcome back. It took way too long to get here. – Levivich 23:49, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
15. Welcome back! —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 01:43, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
16. Welcome back, am glad that this moves the entire issue forward and you are once again released to roam free in the fields of the lord. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
17. Welcome back! You are a valuable asset to this project. Hlevy2 (talk) 14:01, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
18. Welcome back! I haven't interacted with you before, but it seems like you're a perfectly competent and helpful if slightly intense editor, and you got done incredibly dirty by the WMF and to a certain extent arbcom. I hope you'll be able to overcome that Magisch ^{talk to me} 14:08, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
19. Welcome back! KinoCat (talk) 17:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
20. Welcome back! we've never interacted, but I have noticed situations when you have acted to "protect" others. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 04:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you all (also in the sections below!). I'll compose something for the PD talk page now, and then I can finally look again at my watchlist and start editing (if I'm in the mood). Fram (talk) 06:34, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Welcome back

I don't think I know you, and I haven't been around these parts in a decade at least I think, but I ended up finding out about this nonsense. It's crystal clear that you were railroaded by someone with connections, and if the --redacted-- at Arbcom require you to go through another RFA, you've got my vote on general principles.

And any of them who vote not to reinstate your bit will be guaranteeing my votes for literally anyone else, up to and including the proverbial ham sandwich, at the next Arbcom election. Sebthepleb (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Another barnstar for you!

	The Resilient Barnstar
	I hope you can recover from this experience and return to full editing. You can count on my support at RfA. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I was very tempted to give you the civility barnstar, but wasn't sure if others would appreciate the irony :) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:31, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Fram: I want to suggest that you leave the PD talk page alone. You have plenty of editors there supporting your cause. You are understandably upset about the situation and I don't think you are doing yourself any favours there. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:05, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Probably, but the, let's call it audacity of an arb responding to the calls for actual diffs and evidence with a support for a completely diff- and evidence-free FoF as if that is an actual reply to the concerns is completely baffling. Fram (talk) 08:11, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

This entire proceeding is out of process and more or less a trash can fire, not necessarily due to ArbCom's fault. They too are navigating uncharted waters. It's not like it got more absurd in the last day, but griping about it compromises your moral high ground at least in perception. I'd suggest letting people draw their own conclusions about how you've been treated, as you can probably see, most of us fall squarely on your side for now. Magisch ^{talk to me} 08:19, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Minor user rights

While the ArbCom is deliberating, I added autopatrolled and rollbacker flags to your account, so that you could edit conveniently. If you need any other rights (or do not need these), please let me know.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I noted (through my watchlist) that you also recently removed a whole bunch of wikidata property links from articles on other-language Wikipedia versions. I did the same for other articles with the same changes, one the same day, but from another IP. Do you know if there is an easy way to find these? Fram (talk) 12:38, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, and I even opened an ANI request. (I believed I have done it twice, with two different IPs). Concerning the Tuesday IP, I just reverted all their edits, but they might have also edited under different IPs. I do not know any easy way to find all their edits, but if you ask at ANI, probably someone would be able to help. --Ymblanter (talk) 12:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

This is the thread, just in case.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Scanning a database dump perhaps? Welcome back! –xeno^talk 13:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Special:Search/insource:"property:P1448" appears to work, although it produces a few false positives (legitimate uses of Wikidata in infoboxes). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:59, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

You have mail

• Jbh ^Talk 15:23, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Nomination statement

Fram, I’m pleased that (on the surface anyhow) it appears you wish to continue to administrate the project. And I think we both know your RfA will become a referendum of sorts. But could I suggest that your current nomination statement instead be moved to an answer to a self-question (or perhaps an answer to question 3?) and your nomination statement instead speak to those RfA participants that will be seeking to decide on the merits, lacking prior knowledge of the circumstances that brought you back to RfA? I’d be willing to co-nominate with someone else if you don’t feel to write a nomination statement proper. –xeno^talk 11:48, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with 90% of what Xeno wrote. It would be weird if you didn't mention the SANFRANBAN at all in the nomination statement, but certainly all the details and rebuttals would be better moved somewhere else. And ... I know it is not in your nature when you perceive an injustice, but do tone down your language before listing the RfA — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:55, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Xeno and MSGJ: it would be wiser indeed if some others nominated me (the more the merrier!), and I gave my view as an answer to a question. Sanitized a bit to keep the frustration out and the cogent points in. I'll try to rewrite my bit, feel free to propose a nomination statement. Thank you! Fram (talk) 12:42, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to co-nominate as well. Please let me know where to sign.—Chowbok ☠ 13:19, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

My advice, if you will take it: draft the RfA in your userspace (with co-nominators if desired) and wait until the case has actually closed and people have had time to react at the arbitration committee noticeboard. And sleep on it a bit, rather than rushing ahead too fast. This will also stop people !voting before it has actually been transcluded to RfA. Carcharoth (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• As I said above, you've got my vote on general principles. Your nomination statement could literally be "fuck Arbcom, and fuck the WMF" and you'd still have it. Sebthepleb (talk) 12:55, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• I have reverted a bunch of votes, which have been placed before the RfA has been transcluded. I would have done this regardless of which RfA it was, and have probably done it at least on one I have nominated. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:59, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks (voters, advice and action). I have moved it to User talk:Fram/Requests for adminship/Fram 2, perhaps the redirect needs to be deleted for now. I would do it myself, but, well, you know :-) Fram (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Those who think about power and society have long asked themselves, who watches the watchmen? Who holds the powerful to account? It's not an easy task. It something that tends to get you in trouble. It's much easier to uphold the law when the weak break it and turn a blind eye to infractions by those in power. So, what to do with this old question? In our case the answer turns out to be this: User:Fram watches the watchmen. Who will run a skeptical eye over new pages, even by veteran editors? Fram. Who is willing to sanction anyone who doesn't play by the rules, up to and including issuing blocks to arbitrators? Fram. This is not an approach that leads to universal popularity. But it's an approach that helps us maintain a healthy community. And this is why I will be supporting Fram for a new adminship. Haukur (talk) 13:38, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Xeno, you and others who want to nominate (like Chowbok) are invited to write a nomination statement, as I can hardly write my own nomination statement for you to sign ;-) If you have questions for me, feel free to ask of course. I will be less or not available during the weekend, but will at the latest reply on Monday. Fram (talk) 14:04, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll try to pen the co-nomination statement this weekend. I would prefer someone else take first string, as my time will be limited. –xeno^talk 14:44, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• For obvious reasons, although I would love to be one of the nominators, I'm going to keep a low profile. However, you can be assured of my support and I will vote as early as I can as soon as I see the transclusion - depending on my time zone. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• I can do a full article-length nomination statement if you want one; given that (assuming User:GorillaWarfare/Fram admin status notes at least partly reflects the Mythical Secret Dossier) at least part of the supposed evidence against you is based on comments made by me or your replies to me, it might be more significant coming from someone like me than from someone who's always been a paid-up supporter of you. Be aware that my nomination record at RFA is awful (I think only one RFA I've ever nominated has passed). ‑ Iridescent 18:38, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

  Those notes intentionally only discuss evidence that was able to be made public to Fram, that is, the community evidence summarized here. I was not considering the T&S evidence when deciding how to vote on the desysop, nor could I have published any notes on it. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:38, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Late to the party, but welcome back Fram! Let me know you'd like a nom/co-nom from me as well :) -FASTILY 23:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• Only if you promise to write "Why not!" in the nom... Lourdes 06:26, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Challenge accepted :) -FASTILY 07:39, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

• I’ve added my co-nomination statement, though may still add or ce and Fram is free to remove if desired. I think the lead nom should do a deeper dive into Fram’s body of work (as I said my time is limited and I was unable to adequately bring this into my statement). Pinging others who expressed an interest in writing nom/conoms: @Iridescent, Black Kite, Fastily, and Chowbok:. I agree that it should be kept to 2-3 noms, not too lengthy statements, and give less focus and attention to the T&S action/AC decision, which has already been thoroughly covered by talk page participants at the PD, ACN, and elsewhere - instead highlighting the benefit Fram’s continued administration brings to the project. –xeno^talk 12:48, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Per a related thread on my talk, I'll only act as a co-nom if Fram explicitly requests it. My take would be pretty much the diametric opposite of yours—roughly along the lines of Although in technical terms of performing admin tasks Fram is one of the best admins on Wikipedia, I think Fram's attitude has been appalling, but since there have been literally hundreds of people combing his contributions looking for dirt and nobody has managed to find any evidence of anything particularly problematic after he was warned in Copyvio & retaliation last year, the best-case assumption is that Arbcom has desysopped him based on historic incidents rather than on anything he's done recently, and the worst-case assumption is that a corrupt, powerful and well-organized group, some of whose members had taken a dislike to Fram over unrelated issues, concocted a fabric of lies and misrepresentations of genuine events, canvassed their friends to submit spurious allegations on their behalf, and bypassed existing dispute resolution procedures, inappropriate leveraging the personal relationships of one of the people towards whom they alleged Fram had acted inappropriately to push Wikimedia Foundation employees to abuse emergency mechanisms intended for dealing with genuinely sensitive issues. In light of this the only rational course is to return to the status quo ante of June 9, and if anyone has genuine concerns about Fram's suitability for adminship they can present it in the usual way. I can entirely appreciate why Fram might not want something like that in a high-profile position at the top of the RFA. ‑ Iridescent 15:08, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

  The committee has unfortunately marred that course (I would have preferred that as well), because of the potential for double jeopardy, and that a fresh successful RFA will basically forgive all past misdeeds, setting the statute of limitation for examining Fram’s onwiki behaviour to the close date of their RfA. –xeno^talk 15:32, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

  I don't live in the US; "double jeopardy" is perhaps not as much of a big deal to me as it is to you. Here, "new and compelling evidence" constitutes legitimate grounds for a fresh prosecution. I wouldn't really have an issue in this case with a Year Zero approach of declaring everything that happened prior to 10 June 2019 as water under the bridge. I would certainly hope that if there's only one lesson Fram has taken from this fiasco, it's "your approach even when you're right alienates a lot of people and your refusal to ever admit you're wrong alienates even more". Given that—regardless of whether as an admin or as a vanilla editor—the massed ranks of WMDC and WIR will be watching Fram's every move from now on, I think it's very unlikely that there will be any further issues, and if there are any further issues they'll be picked up on right away. ‑ Iridescent 16:12, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

  Sure, but who is to know if the fresh, compelling evidence was already considered? We can’t. –xeno^talk 16:43, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Chowbok, Xeno, thanks for the co-nom. Iridescent, I would be honoured if you would write the nom statement, even if it isn't the most flattering. Feel free to remove my short self-nom line at the start of the current draft RFA. Black Kite and others, if you want to co-nom, be my guest. If you feel that three noms is sufficient and a simple support will suffice, no problem either. I'm flattered that so many people would not only support but even nominate me. Fram (talk) 06:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

First draft

Here's a rough draft of a nomination statement. I'll post it here rather than on the RFA, to avoid it becoming part of the permanent record of the RFA's history if you don't want to use it:

There are circumstances in which I could imagine myself supporting a desysop motion against Fram should this pass, should anyone file one with compelling evidence. Despite that I have no hesitation nominating Fram nor in strongly supporting this RFA. While Wikipedia is generally and rightfully egalitarian in its approach to everything, if you're not familiar with the background here in this particular case you probably shouldn't comment (either in support or opposition) until you've at least skimmed the history at WP:FRAMBAN as this is an exceptional case.

At different and relatively recent times I've previously described Fram as arguably the best admin in Wikipedia's history and described his conduct as an atrocious mix of unnecessary overpersonalization, extreme defensiveness when challenged, lashing out at anyone he feels isn't sufficiently agreeing with him, and a general attitude that his opinions are invariably correct and it's his duty to bludgeon them through regardless of opposition, and I stand by both opinions. Fram has a genuine, and rare, talent for spotting the core of a problem, and an even rarer willingness to challenge problematic conduct without fear or favor, even when doing so means alleging misconduct on the part of people who are used to intimidating critics into silence. In the past Fram has also been arrogant, obnoxious, and unwilling to admit any alternative explanation for a given event than his preferred theory.

However, Fram was warned about his conduct in 2018, and since then the issues that caused concern have been virtually non-existent. Despite having literally hundreds of editors going through his contributions (initially looking for something to justify T&S's original ban of him, subsequently trying to find evidence for the arbcom case), nobody has managed to find anything untoward other than a couple of grumpy comments. Although Arbcom are unable to release exactly what the claimed evidence T&S used to support their ban was, they have confirmed that it was based entirely on on-wiki activity, and as such if there was anything problematic it would have come to light. As far as I can tell from what's either been officially made public or has slipped into public knowledge, none of the complaints was legitimate grounds for desysopping, at least one of the complaints was an outright and demonstrable lie, and there's a strong suggestion that Fram was blocked not for anything he did wrong, but for investigating too closely a small group of well-connected people engaged in inappropriate activities.

In light of all this, I believe Fram should have admin status restored for two different reasons. There's the procedural view, that since the entire set of circumstances that led to Fram losing admin status was illegitimate we should return to the status quo of 9 June, and if someone has genuine evidence of any kind of misconduct they should present it so a legitimate case can be held within Wikipedia's accepted processes. (If the reasons for not making the allegations public are legitimate, I assume it's safe to say that everyone involved is by now aware of where to find Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee.) I find that procedural argument convincing, but even if one discounts it completely I would still support Fram for admin at this time. The last significant conduct of any concern was more than a year ago—a lifetime in wiki-terms—and since then Fram has demonstrated consistently good judgment, often in very difficult circumstances and has consistently worked in areas such as New Page Patrol where having access to the admin toolset would be useful. As such, even setting aside everything that happened in the last three months, this is a candidate to whom I would give a straightforward support based on their activity over the past year and a demonstrable use for the tools.

As I say, if you don't want to use this—or want anything added, removed, or changed—I won't be offended. ‑ Iridescent 08:11, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Iridescent, thanks. Just a small point: second line, "you probably comment" should probably be "you probably shouldn't comment"? Apart from that, thank you very much. It's a much more positive nom than I probably deserve, but not one I'm going to refuse, and I appreciate your comments, both the positive and the negative. Fram (talk) 08:16, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Fixed the "probably"; there was a lot of cutting and pasting here trying to get my train of thought in the right order, and to tone down the us-and-them as much as possible (this is RFA, nor RFAR round 2; ultimately it should be a discussion of you, not of WMDC or Adhmfdfmykrdyr). Unless you're planning to send it live right away, I'll leave this off the RFA for a couple of days, to give time for anyone who thinks something ought to be changed to point it out. ‑ Iridescent 08:30, 23 September 2019 (UTC)~

That's fine. I just wouldn't start an RfA on Friday or during the weekend, as I should be available to answer questions and most of these will probably come in the first day(s). My editing during weekends is rather sporadic. Fram (talk) 08:51, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I know I'm not Fram's campaign manager but I think mentioning "Fram's previously expressed dislike of singular they" has the potential to derail the conversation into culture war issues. Haukur (talk) 08:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll leave it to Fram to decide how to handle pronouns. (It's not really a culture war issue as such; I don't think I've ever met a native Dutch speaker who was comfortable with 'singular they' as it has no equivalent in the language.) The alternatives are using singular they regardless, using "he/his" without explanation, or awkward "Fram was warned about Fram's conduct" rephrasing to avoid pronouns, none of which are ideal. ‑ Iridescent 08:58, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps that line can be removed as well? If anyone has questions about me, gender, pronouns, ... they are free to ask and likely to do so of course. Basically (for anyone reading this), I have not and will not disclose my gender onwiki; I have no objection to anyone using any (normal) pronoun to address me, no matter if they use she, he or they; but to me the singular they sounds grating, simply wrong. For some reason, using plural they when discussing one person doesn't have that problem ("this is a note about editor X. They have..." to me is natural, while in that construction "they has" is not). Fram (talk) 08:51, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Edit conflicted, and removed the line in question per the above ‑ Iridescent 09:00, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Iridescent: suggest removing the first sentence, up to "Despite that". Maybe put it lower down if you like but it sets the wrong tone for the nomination. Fram: I've never seen "they has" used. Even when "they" is used in the singular it must - in this native speaker's opinion (the BFG may disagree) - be used with "have" — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Ready?

@Iridescent, Xeno, Chowbok, and Lourdes: Is the RfA draft ready to be posted tomorrow? Iridescent, right above this there was a suggested change from MSGJ, have you had the chance to look at this yet? If you would prefer to have more time, no problem, I can wait. I guess 4 nom/conoms is sufficient, everything else that needs to be said can happen in the questions and in the support/oppose sections. Fram (talk) 16:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't think any changes need to be made to mine. Agree with the suggestion by MSGJ, especially if Iridescent is lead nom (though the same sentiment could go further down). –xeno^talk 16:35, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

My section is done, unless anybody has any suggestions for improvements.—Chowbok ☠ 21:31, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

@Black Kite and Fastily:, if either of you or both still want to conom, feel free (anyone else I may have forgotten as well of course)! Getting the input from different people right from the start (albeit all as supporters) might give less well informed voters some more insight in what happened and why this RfA is happening. Not everyone follows all the drama, luckily, even when it is rather high profile like this time. Fram (talk) 16:08, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

• I think three is plenty. I've seen RfAs before where you had to scroll about two pages down before you got past the multiple co-noms and it gave the impression of overkill. I'll make a statement in the Support section instead. Black Kite (talk) 18:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
• concur with Black Kite. 3 is more than sufficient. Unless you're going to try to get enough co-noms to outnumber any potential Oppose !votes, which while amusing, might be a wee tad pointy. :-D KillerChihuahua 18:43, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
• I can have a nom ready within the next day or so. IMHO more noms aren't a bad thing, but ymmv of course. -FASTILY 20:16, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi Fastily, please do! Some people will like it, some will think there are too many noms, so be it. If that's the worst they have to say about my RfA, it will be a happy one. Fram (talk) 06:26, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
    • Okay will do! And apologies for the delay, I'll have one ready within a few hours -FASTILY 00:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
      • Posted my co-nom, best of luck Fram! -FASTILY 07:22, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
        • Thanks, the RfA is now live! Fram (talk) 11:54, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• I've added a nomination statement, including a slightly modified version of MSGJ's suggestion; I do feel it's important not to gloss over the fact that we've had run-ins in the past, given that anyone familiar with the background here - which realistically will be most participants - will otherwise pop up to point out that it's not that long since I described you as "coming across as a vindictive crank". I've intentionally not put "Nomination by" or "co-nomination by" at the start as not sure whether you want to treat this as a self-nomination with everyone else as a supporting statement, as a nomination by me with the co-noms backing up, or as a multiple co-nomination with everyone equal; you have express permission to modify my post to add "nomination by" or "co-nomination by", to move it below some or all of the other nom statements if you don't want mine to be the first thing people read, and to change the indentation if you want to keep the nom statements as a bulleted list. (I've left the line breaks in html rather than wiki markup intentionally, as that way a single * or # at the start will make the indentation format correctly for all paragraphs.) ‑ Iridescent 22:20, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

  From a reader's point of view: in the version I saw, your nom was not visibly distinguished from what looks like Fram's self-nom. Please find a way to clarify, - like Fram signing, or a bullet point, or whatever. I am no friend of the green colour for quoted text from an accessibility pov, but know it's standard. Can quotes perhaps be shorter, or even avoided? - I'm ready to support ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:26, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

  As I literally just said, I've intentionally posted it un-indented for Fram to decide where he wants it to go and what he wants preceding it. (If this is being treated as anything other than a self-nom then Fram's initial text is going to go, anyway.) The quotes are staying, although I'm not attached to the {{tq}} format; the entire point of this RFA is that the belligerent Fram whom participants are likely to have encountered in the past has changed and since 2018 has been something close to a model editor. ‑ Iridescent 22:42, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

  Hi Iridescent, I've put your nom as the first co-nom, and have moved my statement to the acceptance beneath the noms. I'll wait for Fastily to post their co-nom, and then I'll move the RfA to the actual live page. Fram (talk) 06:26, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

  With respect to Fastily, this is going to be a divisive RfA however you put it, so I think it's probably better to move it to live page sooner than later (co-noms can always be added later in the past). One benefit is that folks like the one just now can express their opinion over there instead of here at your talk page, which IMO is downright baiting on their part. Best of luck in any case. Alex Shih (talk) 14:46, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Alex above, though it may be worth giving a general head's up when you do go live with it, just so that people are aware and ready to moderate comments/move comments to the talk page, and so on. Maybe even drop a note at the bureaucrats noticeboard so they can keep an eye on it? Some practical advice. Don't check the RfA continuously. Don't feel you need to respond to anything other than direct questions (sometimes others will respond to some points before you do). Don't get baited into edit warring (report anything that you think needs removing) or saying the wrong things (e.g. getting dragged into arguing small side-points). Those more familiar with RFA than I am could give better advice. Basically, stay above the affray (unless absolutely necessary or if you want to reinforce a key point) and accept the community's judgement (whichever way it goes). You might also want to consider what to do if things go badly wrong (though hopefully they won't). One final point: I hope that we will see as much participation at the community consultation by the WMF and at the RfC mandated in the arbitration case as we have at your RFA! The outcome and input to the former two discussions are arguably more important long-term than your RfA. Best of luck. Carcharoth (talk) 17:14, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Ready!

The RfA is now live, if I have missed a step (or messed up a step) please let me know. Fram (talk) 11:54, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Precious

quality comics and control

Thank you for quality articles about comics and their creators, both begun and improved, such as Willy Vandersteen, Angoulême International Comics Festival and Le Petit Vingtième, for service from 2005, for keeping a watchful admin eye over copyright, proper referencing and notability, for "Trying to silence critics and dismiss genuine questions as "trolling" seems to be a rather unsuccesful strategy." (2013) - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2285 of Precious, a prize of QAI, the cabal of the outcast, of which you surely are a member, both by what you do and how you are treated. Please survive without looking back too much, and keep statements short. Today's featured picture illustrates KISS ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. You are one of the most caring editors I have encountered on enwiki, a gracious helping hand even when we were sometimes on opposing sides of a debate. Fram (talk) 13:27, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you (blushing). - I worked on Kafka, which helps to survive. I also think that everything about arbcom has been said in the ultimate guide, "Disregard the commandments herein at your peril." ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

DYK that this page receives around thousand views each day? - I think - for the RfA - that things went wrong in recent months, but pointing out what when by whom should not be the focus, but future work and past credits. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of List of Spanish painters for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of Spanish painters is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Spanish painters until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Piramidion 13:53, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for your CSD here [6] and here [7]. It was a bloody terrible idea, I don't know what I was thinking. Cheers, Vitreology talk 14:24, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Don't worry, we all have these from time to time. Fram (talk) 14:31, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Arbitrator misbehavior

It would be a shame if somebody went to WP:AN and requested a community sanction against several arbitrators for violating WP:ADMINACCT. On my user page are a list of arbitrators and diffs where I asked them to explain themselves. Those who answered have had their names struck through, regardless of how they answered, because disagreeing is not a wikicrime. However, stonewalling is not acceptable behavior for an admin, and certainly not for an arbitrator. As I said:

if you vote to desysop without explaining the reasons, you are committing a breach of trust. The reasons cannot be hand waving things like "feelings" or "people have concerns" or "secret on-wiki diffs". If T&S won't let you cite the evidence required to vote your conscience, then you must do the honorable thing: tell T&S that they have prevented you from doing your job and resign in protest. [8]

The violation of WP:ADMINACCT is:

Failure to communicate... to address concerns of the community (especially when explanations or other serious comments are sought)

Up and down the proposed decision talk page there are requests for diffs of your allegedly improper behavior, yet no diffs are provided. You can see that some of the arbitrators just voted and never attempted to explain the evidence upon which they based their votes. This is unacceptable, and those responsible should be sanctioned for their breach of trust. I believe this should be discussed by the community and we should decide whether some of these arbitrators need to be admonished or removed. Jehochman ^Talk 18:09, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I hope you understand that I will leave this to others? This whole mess needs some kind of evaluation, individually and from a group perspective, but I'm not the best placed person to take any initiative about this. Fram (talk) 18:14, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Me neither. I'm very upset at the unfairness of it, and I'm somebody who came to this thinking that you were behaving badly. But upon closer inspection the case didn't hold up, at least not based upon the sequence of events and the information that was visible. Jehochman ^Talk 18:17, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Welcome back!

Welcome back Fram! 🎈🎈🎈 -- Rockstonetalk to me! 18:40, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Welcome back

Only 2 days late to the party! anyway just wanted to say welcome back to the project,
Your contributions and admin actions are (and were) appreciated here and I hope one day you'd become an admin again and this will all just blow over :),
Anyway welcome back, Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 22:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

WP:FRAMSUM

Hi Fram, I just saw the note at FRAMSUM that you're putting together your RfA page. You'll have my support, whenever you decide to run. But I'm concerned that you might just miss passing. How would you feel about doing a quick trip to WP:ORCP and asking the question: how many people would flip to supporting if they saw you going about your normal wiki-work for a while before you do the RfA run? Even voters who might feel kindly toward you might be concerned that you've been bruised by the experience (as anyone would be) and that those bruises might get you into trouble if you immediately pick up where you left off. - Dank (push to talk) 02:12, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I think it will work out. The bureaucrats have every ability to see through any silliness that might appear. The Arbitration decision was stupid because it has no practical effect and will lead to more sympathy. I recommend that all concerned try to be nice to people (even those who have been so disagreeable). Jehochman ^Talk 02:52, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

In that case, people at ORCP will tell Fram that it's fine to run now. Win-win. - Dank (push to talk) 03:01, 21 September 2019 (UTC) ("Win-win" meaning that Fram will be able to point to the discussion at ORCP when (not if) that point gets raised during the RfA. - Dank (push to talk) 15:01, 21 September 2019 (UTC))

Hi Dank, thanks, but I feel that I just had 3 months of editor/admin review already, where all my actions, attitudes, opinions, ... were discussed to death. The RfA will rehash much of this anyway, and to add another layer of people commenting about me inbetween seems like self-flagellation at the moment. Fram (talk) 06:15, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

RFA

If you really want to do this, I woud be happy to nominate/support/whatever you want. Cheers, Black Kite (talk) 02:40, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

draft

Hey, Fram. I hate unwanted advice, ignore me if that's what this is. I'm concerned about the drafted answer to question 3, and I hope this will feel like helpful feedback rather than otherwise. You're using question 3 to say, "I've been treated badly." That's not what question 3 is about. The whole answer in the current draft is irrelevant. Question three is asking, "Are you going to be a jerk when you deal with other editors?" And right now, the answer says, "Yeah, probably." Arbcom's process is immaterial to answering this question, and bringing them into it just feels like taking shots from what amounts to a bully pulpit. I would think about answering the question that's been asked. If an additional-questioner wants to ask about your take on the whole mess, fine, you can use this if you want, though I'd actually recommend saying something like, "I disagree with the process and much of what they decided, but I think they were doing the best they could in a terrible situation. I don't think that situation should ever happen again, to any other admin or any other arbcom."

Apologies if this is unwelcome. I know there are many who will disagree with me. It's just my take. --valereee (talk) 11:47, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

You might also say that you were subjected to unfair sanction and talk about how this has formed your understanding of when and how to apply sanctions in your capacity as an administrator. You might reflect on what you have learned from the affair. All experience is valuable, both good experiences and bad experiences. In what way, if any, might this experience change your methods for responding to problematic editors. Jehochman ^Talk 12:30, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I’ve decided that Arbcom got it half right. They unbanned you and now you can make your case to the community. I think a gracious approach will be best. Jehochman ^Talk 20:04, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

As gracious as possible - without being fake or dishonest. In the end, Fram is Fram and can't and won't pretend to be anyone else. But there are two basic ways to frame this:

1) I'm asking for the bit back because I'd like to help out with admin stuff again. I think I can do a decent job and I hope you'll trust me with it.

2) I'm asking for the bit back because the T&S action that led us here was a wildly inappropriate and counterproductive intervention in community affairs which should be undone as strongly and directly as possible.

I'd recommend to Fram that he focus on part 1) himself and let others make the case on part 2). But I personally agree with both parts. Haukur (talk) 22:15, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

• Fram, I agree with all of the advice above. I'm going to support you, and I hope very much that the consensus will be favorable. But I'm pretty sure that it will be favorable only if you present yourself positively, rather than present negatively how you've been treated. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:06, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

The above advice is good, especially the bit about presenting yourself positively (or being presented positively by others in nomination statements, though having too many nomination statements that are too long might be best avoided - you want a short, clear message that is easy for people to understand). If you will consider it, my advice would be to ask for advice here (and maybe elsewhere - a mention at the ArbCom noticeboard thread?) and see what people suggest. The big decision you have to make is whether to continue with your plans for an immediate RfA (which would in some ways bring some resolution one way or the other, rather than leave things hanging) or to take a slower approach. One possibility is to ask ArbCom for clarification on various points that are still unclear, so you have something to point to at an RfA (even if it is only to say "I asked and still did not get a clear answer"). One thing you could ask ArbCom is what exactly is the conduct you need to avoid that got you sanctioned. See if they can actually give you a clear answer. If they still cannot, you can point to that in an RfA. Trouble is, they could take ages to answer you, but they might be a bit quicker than usual here. Carcharoth (talk) 00:19, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

The other thing I forgot to mention is that you might be able to separate out the issues of: (a) whether the community have trust in ArbCom (maybe best left to the forthcoming elections); (b) whether the community have trust in this specific ArbCom decision (or elements thereof); (c) whether the community have trust in the whole T&S process; and (d) whether the community have trust in you (as an editor and administrator). These are all being mixed up at the moment (maybe unavoidably so) and would all factor into your RfA. If you want it all to be mixed up, then fine (but it may well confuse the result). Some of these issues may be better handled by a well-constructed and well-advertised request for comment/appeal (e.g. explaining the issues with how the case was mishandled and how the process was weighted against you in terms of both the 'secret dossier' and the way you were only unblocked right at the end to participate in the case), rather than as part of an RfA. Normally, the people that turn up to an RfA are different from those who would turn up to an RfC and/or those who would turn up to an appeal or take part in ArbCom elections (or indeed comment at the case pages). In this case, enough of the active community are aware of all this that the differences won't be as great as usual, but the difference will be there (e.g. many people stayed away from the ArbCom case). I'm saying far too much here and starting to ramble. Will leave it at that. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 07:07, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to add that you (Fram) should focus on (d), that is, why the community should trust you to be an admin. As for (a), (b), and (c), the community will inevitably bring those issues up themselves, but it would be best to let them do that, rather than do it yourself. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:42, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

In any election, you want to ask yourself - what are the swing voters thinking and what might persuade them? In this case, I suspect the persuadable swing-voter is someone who may not have cared for the T&S action but who also has concerns about Fram: "Isn't he kind of ornery? Is he really someone we need on the admin corps?" Long essays on the injustice of the whole thing probably aren't going to persuade voters like that, but presenting positive plans in a conciliatory spirit might. Haukur (talk) 18:25, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

+1 Jehochman ^Talk 20:19, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I have to totally agree with the advice given above. There will be *plenty* of people who will jump at the opportunity to express how unfair the whole process was. In your shoes, I'd keep it short, simple, and straight to the point and make your best case as to why Wikipedia needs you as an admin. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Fram, I understand why you might be angry. I resigned my adminship in protest over this fiasco. I'd like to see you get your bit back, as I did, and you've gotten really good advice above on how to do that. Jonathunder (talk) 01:14, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll take a good look at my responses, and see what I can do. Not discussing the events of the past three months feels strange, as if I don't want to discuss them, but on the other hand there certainly will be questions about it anyway, so it might indeed be better to focus on what I have to offer or what I will change, and keep the discussion of what went wrong otherwise out of my own statements. Fram (talk) 06:14, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree that you should not talk about the injustice at all (co-nominators could do that to a certain extend). What you could consider to ask of people who oppose is to show what behaviour they found problematic in your edits. That gives you a clear path to respond/rebut and improve (especially if this RfA would fail and you'd reconsider to ask for the bit back (or got nominated) in 6 months or a year). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:33, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I think my draft RfA statement no longer talks about the way I feel about the WMF actions or the ArbCom case, but only about what I did before the case, where I have improved already, and what I plan to do if I would get the bit back. Fram (talk) 08:34, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I think your statement and the nominations are way too long. Even I haven't read them. I'd counsel all parties to chop their submissions by a third. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:44, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll leave it up to Fram. If he/she wants me to shorten my part, I can.—Chowbok ☠ 04:17, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram

An arbitration case regarding Fram has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

1. The Committee decides that Fram's ban was not required, and therefore vacates it.
2. The behaviour shown in the case materials falls below the standards expected for an administrator. Accordingly, the committee takes over the decision to remove Fram's administrator tools. They may regain the administrative tools at any time via a successful request for adminship.
3. A Request for Comment will be opened under the Arbitration space, and managed by the Arbitration Clerks. This RfC will focus on how harassment and private complaints should be handled in the future.

For the Arbitration Committee, SQL^{Query me!} 19:16, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram

Fram I disagree with #2, since there was no cause to ban, you should have been welcomed back, bit and all. I read through the case and saw nothing wrong with telling someone the honest truth, even if they didn't like it. It's just who you are. Some people are diplomatic, and some just say it like it is, both types are needed. Just 'sayin! Necromonger...We keep what we kill 16:45, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Question

Where is the personal attack in this edit? I'm not seeing it. Thanks in advance. KillerChihuahua 14:00, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

"I am far from the only individual who you seem to have put on a Nixonian enemies list, for a trivial slight to your ego." is the most obvious, but the whole comment is one long personal attack, no? Loads of accusations and nothing to back it up? Never mind the irony of someone accusing me of harassment and having a Nixonian enemies list, when in reality I have left them alone for years and years and they still feel the need to come and attack me on my user talk page. Fram (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Concur the post should have had difs to support any accusations made, or else not included them; "accusations with nothing to back them up" is clearly accurate. The entire post seemed to me to be more pointed criticism rather than personal attack but without difs it's impossible to determine the validity of any of the criticism or accusations made; certainly the post seemed... unfriendly, shall we say. I have not been party to the backstory; I appreciate your kind and civil response. Please feel free to remove this also - no need to keep the link to a post you've removed, it rather negates the removal and renders it useless. KillerChihuahua 14:20, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Purple Barnstar
		WMF was wrong in their decision to ban and desysop you. - ZLEA T\C 12:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

RfA

I am personally disappointed by the RfA as of right now. This is a case where we should restore the status quo ante IMO. I doubt the haters would have prevailed at an RFAR, this looks like people exploiting an error. That offends me. Guy (help!) 23:35, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I am terribly sorry that I was late to the party. My support was drafted in advance of the RfA and was intended to be at least within one of the first 5 votes. However, due to my time zone, by the time I woke up at 5AM his morning many votes had been cast so my vote will have lost a lot of its impact. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• I appreciate you allowing me to serve as nominator. You've gone through quite an ordeal. I hope some time off from the administrative grind proves restful and restorative. I think I might shed them for a while myself. –xeno^talk 13:47, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• I'm sorry that turned into a bad situation, Fram. --valereee (talk) 13:54, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you both. I hadn't expected it to go this bad (though I hadn't expected a walk in the park either); while I don't agree with all opposes, the main message is rather clear, and I should heed it. Fram (talk) 13:57, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

September

meadow saffron

• • • I expected a shit-storm, having seen some RfAs, last Floq. Sadly, whatever I tried to make some arbitraters see that one or two of them could have avoided that wasn't enough. What a waste of the community's time. On the positive side: I don't remember 100 supports in such a short time. Please let's not call opposers "haters". We have a great number of good admins, and content editing for a while can be great joy. Just today, my article of the year appears on DYK, and a peer review is open ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• I know I don't really know you or you me, and that I was in the neutral column, but I too am sorry how your RFA went down. I hope that you continue doing good work here and I look forward to supporting your next RFA. Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 13:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• All the best, Fram, and commiserations that it didn't work out. I didn't !vote one way or the other this time, and you probably don't want any advice from me, but IMHO if you take on board the reasons for the opposes and demonstrate in a year's time that you've worked to fix those concerns, then there's no reason why you can't get the bit back and return to doing the things you did well as an admin, which is protecting the quality of the encyclopedia.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:00, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  • +1, and I was in the "Oppose" column. I think 12-18 months is all you'll need to get the bit back. You've been through a lot, and I hope to and look forward to being in the "Support" column the next time around. Steel1943 (talk) 15:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• (edit conflict × 3) I was expecting a contentious RfA, but that was a crucible in itself. Sorry you had to deal with that. I wholeheartedly stand by my support of you being an admin again, and I hope to support you again in a future RfA (and nominate as well, if you’d be interested), should you decide that you want to go through Hell that again. OhKayeSierra (talk) 14:00, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• I think you handled the questions well and your closing comment was good. I look forward to supporting again next time. Haukur (talk) 14:00, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• I'm sorry it didn't turn out better, but I thought that was a very honourable withdrawal. And I think the "I will continue to edit, take the applicable concerns to heart, and hope to reapply in a year (or later) with a better track record" approach is probably the perfect reaction at this point. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:29, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• Sorry it didn't work out (I had expected something closer to 65% than to 50%, but it is hard to predict). I hope you enjoy editing as a non-admin (not having an admin bit for a while made me remember how much fun content editing is). —Kusma (t·c) 14:37, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• I'm sorry for the way things went but heartened that you are going to try again later down the line. I look forward to supporting you next time as well.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:11, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• That was a graceful concession. I hope that you will show marked improvement to convince others the next time round. Good luck and all the best. starship.paint (talk) 15:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• (Some abusive IP, now blocked, removed my comment) I think you got screwed three times--WMF, ARBCOM, and by the [redacted] at RFA. Somewhere, redacted is no doubt smirking smugly. I'm sorry this happened to you; I'm watchlisting Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Fram_3 and will be voting support as soon as it turns blue. Sebthepleb (talk) 14:12, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  • It's disappointing to see we're seeing edit-warring over the redacting of a posting that was, at the very least, in poor taste. I've given it a very short page protection for at least a slow-down. Please don't engage in hostilities here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:57, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• I planned to !vote over the weekend but see you've withdrawn it - Have to say I'm bitterly disappointed with the comments and Opposes over at the RFA and I think you withdrawing was the right thing to do, I would've supported because you should never have been desysopped in the damn first place,

Sorry to how your RFA turned out (I genuinely did believe you would've passed easily), I'm just disappointed tbh. –Davey2010^Talk 17:41, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm also sorry (and surprised) at the way it turned out, and look forward to supporting you again next time; you did the right thing be withdrawing today. Hang in there. All the best, Miniapolis 22:17, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• I'm sorry to see it ended this way. Please don't be discouraged, there are a lot of folks here that value your contributions. If you decide to run again, please don't hesitate to let me know if you would like another nomination :) -FASTILY 22:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• Count me as another person who is sorry about the way it played out, and I too think that you said just the right things in your withdrawal statement. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
• I've been swamped by life and never got a chance to vote - sorry for this blip in the road and better luck next time. Shearonink (talk) 01:41, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• It shouldn't have been necessary to do it, but your withdrawing the nom was the best thing to do. I'll be looking for #3. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:14, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• your integrity was harder won than the first access to the buttons, and its where your value to the project lies. Your work over the years here is hugely appreciated. Ceoil (talk) 03:45, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• I was so disgusted by your treatment that I have only cursorily looked at WP since you were blocked. I am sorry to gather that you applied for your adminship to be restored but got a lot of opposes and so you withdrew. Your admin status should have been restored with your unblocking. I was not aware of the RfA and so did not !vote, I am sorry, I regret that, not that it would have made any difference I suppose. You have done invaluable work protecting WP from copyvios, you should be respected and honoured for that here, I am truly saddened by your treatment and hope you will continue your efforts.EN WP now has a status it doesn't really deserve IMO, it doesn't seem long ago since it was the butt of jokes for its unreliability, now it seems to be regarded as the Supreme Source of Knowledge on Everything, it really needs editors and admins like you to maintain its value.Smeat75 (talk) 04:36, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all of you. Fram (talk) 06:57, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Signpost write-up

Maybe Fram or someone else who reads this wants to take a look at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Special report. Easier to address any problems before publication. Haukur (talk) 08:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Got moved to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-09-30/Special report without leaving a redirect. Κσυπ Cyp   14:18, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

I've already complained about them apparently deliberately quoting my has been arrogant, obnoxious, and unwilling to admit any alternative explanation for a given event than his preferred theory out of context by failing to mention that the following sentence was Fram was warned about his conduct in 2018, and since then the issues that caused concern have been virtually non-existent, and been roundly ignored. Given the Signpost has been openly pushing an agenda throughout this—I believe their fabricated allegations on 30 June are the only time in Signpost history when one of their pages has been so problematic it's needed to be deleted as a BLP violation—I'm not expecting either a correction nor an apology any time soon. ‑ Iridescent 08:29, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Then there might be another deletion about to happen, or a request for arbitration. Jehochman ^Talk 13:10, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you all. A bit strange to see a detailed report on an RfA, this normally never happens at the Signpost, but I guess some preferential treatment their should be expected ;-) Anyway, the current wording at least is better than what was first written. Fram (talk) 06:57, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

List of outfield association footballers who played in goal

Thanks - I was in two minds about starting it, so raised it at WT:FOOTBALL first. There's quite a lot of coverage out there it seems, and it's one I intend to build up over time, but feel free to get stuck in if you'd like - many hands make light work! GiantSnowman 13:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:2002 disestablishments in Slovenia

A tag has been placed on Category:2002 disestablishments in Slovenia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:28, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:2002 disestablishments in Slovenia

A tag has been placed on Category:2002 disestablishments in Slovenia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:35, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Andrés Gimeno

On 11 October 2019, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Andrés Gimeno, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:09, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

October

... with thanks from QAI

Thank you for article work in October, - the cabal is grateful, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Today, I am proud of a great woman on the Main page, Márta Kurtág, finally! - Here's my ideal candidate for arbcom. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:26, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 15

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DYK nomination of Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère Valley

Hello! Your submission of Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère Valley at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:28, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

November

Cassia javanica, Torremolinos
... with thanks from QAI

Thank you for the article, and it looks reviewed, or I would have looked. A year ago, I wrote about the tent-like church ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Music Waves

Just a heads up, I do think this qualifies as WP:A7 and have tagged it appropriately. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Fram (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

New Page Review newsletter November 2019

Hello Fram,

This newsletter comes a little earlier than usual because the backlog is rising again and the holidays are coming very soon.

Getting the queue to 0

There are now 812 holders of the New Page Reviewer flag! Most of you requested the user right to be able to do something about the huge backlog but it's still roughly less than 10% doing 90% of the work. Now it's time for action.
Exactly one year ago there were 'only' 3,650 unreviewed articles, now we will soon be approaching 7,000 despite the growing number of requests for the NPR user right. If each reviewer soon does only 2 reviews a day over five days, the backlog will be down to zero and the daily input can then be processed by every reviewer doing only 1 review every 2 days - that's only a few minutes work on the bus on the way to the office or to class! Let's get this over and done with in time to relax for the holidays.
Want to join? Consider adding the NPP Pledge userbox.
Our next newsletter will announce the winners of some really cool awards.

Coordinator

Admin Barkeep49 has been officially invested as NPP/NPR coordinator by a unanimous consensus of the community. This is a complex role and he will need all the help he can get from other experienced reviewers.

This month's refresher course

Paid editing is still causing headaches for even our most experienced reviewers: This official Wikipedia article will be an eye-opener to anyone who joined Wikipedia or obtained the NPR right since 2015. See The Hallmarks to know exactly what to look for and take time to examine all the sources.

Tools

• It is now possible to select new pages by date range. This was requested by reviewers who want to patrol from the middle of the list.
• It is now also possible for accredited reviewers to put any article back into the New Pages Feed for re-review. The link is under 'Tools' in the side bar.

Reviewer Feedback

Would you like feedback on your reviews? Are you an experienced reviewer who can give feedback to other reviewers? If so there are two new feedback pilot programs. New Reviewer mentorship will match newer reviewers with an experienced reviewer with a new reviewer. The other program will be an occasional peer review cohort for moderate or experienced reviewers to give feedback to each other. The first cohort will launch November 13.

Second set of eyes

• Not only are New Page Reviewers the guardians of quality of new articles, they are also in a position to ensure that pages are being correctly tagged for deletion and maintenance and that new authors are not being bitten. This is an important feature of your work, especially while some routine tagging for deletion can still be carried out by non NPR holders and inexperienced users. Read about it at the Monitoring the system section in the tutorial. If you come across such editors doing good work, don't hesitate to encourage them to apply for NPR.
• Do be sure to have our talk page on your watchlist. There are often items that require reviewers' special attention, such as to watch out for pages by known socks or disruptive editors, technical issues and new developments, and of course to provide advice for other reviewers.

Arbitration Committee

The annual ArbCom election will be coming up soon. All eligible users will be invited to vote. While not directly concerned with NPR, Arbcom cases often lead back to notability and deletion issues and/or actions by holders of advanced user rights.

Community Wish list

There is to be no wish list for WMF encyclopedias this year. We thank Community Tech for their hard work addressing our long list of requirements which somewhat overwhelmed them last year, and we look forward to a successful completion.

---

To opt-out of future mailings, you can remove yourself here

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:33, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Rondo (confectionery)

I declined the G11 tag on this as the article could be trimmed back to a single sentence (with source), which wouldn't then meet the criteria. I'm not sure what else to do with it; food products tend to be problematic because while they might be well-known, they tend not to turn up in anything approaching significant coverage in reliable sources. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:15, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Of course, nearly every G11 can be trimmed back in this way, so I'm not sure that's the best appraoch in most cases. But in any way, I have prodded it now as theer seems to be little coverage of the candy out there (as far as some simple searches revealed). I know that other similar food products (somewhat well-known, but not really remarkable otherwise) have been deleted as well; usually only the top names (like Mars or Milky Way, to take some from the same infobox) are truly, undeniably notable. Fram (talk) 13:10, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking more AfD myself, but PROD works. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:27, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:De meesterschilder.jpg

The file File:De meesterschilder.jpg has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

unused, low-res, no obvious use

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the page history of each individual file for details. Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 01:02, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

He hasn't learned

I know you lost your mop (and if I recall I had some choice words for the ones who chose to go after you, but that's neither here nor there), but an editor you blocked for a year has returned and is causing the same kind of disruption he had been previously.[9]

I've lost almost all faith in ANI, but I really don't know what else there is for cases like this...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:54, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I mean ... here we have an "experienced Wikipedian" who is engaged in blatant misrepresentation of sources, IDHT, and even outright trolling... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:20, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:Ezelrit op het strand.jpg

The file File:Ezelrit op het strand.jpg has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

unused, low-res, no obvious use

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the page history of each individual file for details. Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 01:01, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom 2019 election voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2019 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 on Monday, 2 December 2019. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2019 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Google Code-In 2019 is coming - please mentor some documentation tasks!

Hello,

Google Code-In, Google-organized contest in which the Wikimedia Foundation participates, starts in a few weeks. This contest is about taking high school students into the world of opensource. I'm sending you this message because you recently edited a documentation page at the English Wikipedia.

I would like to ask you to take part in Google Code-In as a mentor. That would mean to prepare at least one task (it can be documentation related, or something else - the other categories are Code, Design, Quality Assurance and Outreach) for the participants, and help the student to complete it. Please sign up at the contest page and send us your Google account address to google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org, so we can invite you in!

From my own experience, Google Code-In can be fun, you can make several new friends, attract new people to your wiki and make them part of your community.

If you have any questions, please let us know at google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org.

Thank you!

--User:Martin Urbanec (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère Valley

On 24 November 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère Valley, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the first Paleolithic sculpture of a woman found in modern times was excavated at Laugerie-Basse, one of the Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère Valley? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère Valley. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère Valley), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

--valereee (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Teriitaria II

Can you merge the history of the User:KAVEBEAR/Teriitaria II with Teriitaria II? KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:11, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm no longer an admin. Perhaps User:Graham87 can help? Fram (talk) 21:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@KAVEBEAR: I don't see any complete cut-and-paste moves in the two page histories or any way to merge the two page histories without introducing overlapping revisions. Graham87 01:58, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@Graham87: Can you merge the histories before 05:11, April 1, 2012 from the sandbox? The creating user copy a lot of my sandbox content in 2012 to create the current article. I want the article under my names as the original creator since my content precede the creation of the stub. KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:38, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@KAVEBEAR: Ah yes, that makes more sense now; all done. I only just got this message by checking Fram's talk page, because after-the-fact pings don't work. Graham87 13:47, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1521 disestablishments in England

A tag has been placed on Category:1521 disestablishments in England requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:14, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Thoughts on WMF:Talk:Office actions/Community consultation on partial and temporary office actions/09 2019

[10]

• Temp / local WMF bans are gone: yay!
• Full bans remain (okay), and remain unappealable because "The threshold for a Foundation global ban is much higher than the threshold for a partial or temporary ban and such a ban receives review from multiple people, including both members of the T&S and Legal teams before going into effect. " Uh, didn't the WMF claim that my temp, local ban had been reviewed by the exact same "multiple people and teams"? Then how is this a safeguard against wrong WMF bans? If the same groups would, for the same issues, now issue a full ban "because we may no longer give temp or local bans", then the ban would be worse than before, the same people would be responsible, and the same "it's unappealable" logic would lead to the same major issues. Fram (talk) 10:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

I share your concern that a sledgehammer might start being used to open pistachios. I just hope that there has been at least some lesson learned about deference to community processes, due process, and basic fairness. We will see. –xeno^talk 10:27, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Indeed. This is not a plea to abolish office bans: among the actually banned people are a number of people who, if the supposed concerns are correct, have no place at all on these sites. But I just hope that they continue to restrict it to these groups, and that they would be as open as possible when people raise concerns about this or that block, as the trust that a ban will be correct has been eroded, and the reply linked above is not really convincing in some aspects. Fram (talk) 10:35, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Optomistically, I read it as “we hear the community, but legal says we have to CYA with all this extra stuff”. –xeno^talk 10:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1521 in England

A tag has been placed on Category:1521 in England requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:21, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Weclome Back!

I am really late to this, but weclome back! LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 14:37, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks :-)

New Page Review newsletter December 2019

Reviewer of the Year

This year's Reviewer of the Year is Rosguill. Having gotten the reviewer PERM in August 2018, they have been a regular reviewer of articles and redirects, been an active participant in the NPP community, and has been the driving force for the emerging NPP Source Guide that will help reviewers better evaluate sourcing and notability in many countries for which it has historically been difficult.

Special commendation again goes to Onel5969 who ends the year as one of our most prolific reviewers for the second consecutive year. Thanks also to Boleyn and JTtheOG who have been in the top 5 for the last two years as well.

Several newer editors have done a lot of work with CAPTAIN MEDUSA and DannyS712 (who has also written bots which have patrolled thousands of redirects) being new reviewers since this time last year.

Thanks to them and to everyone reading this who has participated in New Page Patrol this year.

Top 10 Reviewers over the last 365 days

Rank	Username	Num reviews	Log
1	Rosguill (talk)	47,395	Patrol Page Curation
2	Onel5969 (talk)	41,883	Patrol Page Curation
3	JTtheOG (talk)	11,493	Patrol Page Curation
4	Arthistorian1977 (talk)	5,562	Patrol Page Curation
5	DannyS712 (talk)	4,866	Patrol Page Curation
6	CAPTAIN MEDUSA (talk)	3,995	Patrol Page Curation
7	DragonflySixtyseven (talk)	3,812	Patrol Page Curation
8	Boleyn (talk)	3,655	Patrol Page Curation
9	Ymblanter (talk)	3,553	Patrol Page Curation
10	Cwmhiraeth (talk)	3,522	Patrol Page Curation

(The top 100 reviewers of the year can be found here)

Redirect autopatrol

A recent Request for Comment on creating a new redirect autopatrol pseduo-permission was closed early. New Page Reviewers are now able to nominate editors who have an established track record creating uncontroversial redirects. At the individual discretion of any administrator or after 24 hours and a consensus of at least 3 New Page Reviewers an editor may be added to a list of users whose redirects will be patrolled automatically by DannyS712 bot III.

Source Guide Discussion

Set to launch early in the new year is our first New Page Patrol Source Guide discussion. These discussions are designed to solicit input on sources in places and topic areas that might otherwise be harder for reviewers to evaluate. The hope is that this will allow us to improve the accuracy of our patrols for articles using these sources (and/or give us places to perform a WP:BEFORE prior to nominating for deletion). Please watch the New Page Patrol talk page for more information.

This month's refresher course

While New Page Reviewers are an experienced set of editors, we all benefit from an occasional review. This month consider refreshing yourself on Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features). Also consider how we can take the time for quality in this area. For instance, sources to verify human settlements, which are presumed notable, can often be found in seconds. This lets us avoid the (ugly) 'Needs more refs' tag.

Delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 16:10, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Io Saturnalia!

		Io, Saturnalia!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:28, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

Hello there! Shearonink (talk) wishes you & yours the very best of the season!

Whether you celebrate Christmas, Diwali, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa,
Festivus (for the rest of us!) or even the Saturnalia,
here's to
hoping your holiday time is wonderful
and that the New Year will be an improvement upon the old.
CHEERS!

Share these holiday wishes by adding {{subst:User:Shearonink/Holiday}} ~~~~ to your friends' talk pages.

Be well

	Have a WikiChristmas and a PediaNewYear
	I still wish our discussion had gone a different route, and I regret terminating it. Keep well. SilkTork (talk) 19:38, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy holidays!

Hi Fram! All the warmest wishes for this seasonal occasion, whichever you celebrate - or don't, while I swelter at 27℃ (80.6℉), and peace and prosperity for 2020. Hoping that you'll join me for a cool beer in Bangkok in August when it will be even hotter! Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:03, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Good luck

豊かな十年へようこそ/WELCOME TO THE D20s

Miraclepine wishes you a Merry Christmas, a Happy New Year, and a prosperous decade of change and fortune.
このミラPはFramたちのメリークリスマスも新年も変革と幸運の豊かな十年をおめでとうございます！
フレフレ、みんなの未来！/GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR FUTURE!
ミラP 02:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Heads up

You may be interested in this. SRG doesn't typically take comments, and I don't think they're needed here either, but since you and he have a history, I thought I should let you know the request was made. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:03, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

• Hooray. I was the admin that indeffed him here originally, apart from the usual vandals I don't think there's been a bigger pain in the arse in the 12 years I've been an admin. Black Kite (talk) 00:11, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Luckily he's not very technically proficient... TonyBallioni (talk) 00:15, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
    • If I remember correctly that was why he got banned here originally :) Black Kite (talk) 00:35, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth/Evidence. Please add your evidence by January 14, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, CodeLyoko^talk 03:12, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Help me Improve

I am really new to this and working hard to make it right. You are experts in the field, it just demoralizing to be thrashed. rather share few pointers and example to improve the article. The article has been edited and content has been rectified basis the links provided. There is no reason it should be deleted. More than that HELP ME IMPROVE IT! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles249 (talk • contribs) 10:16, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Alexander Moore (soldier)

You recently proposed deletion of the page Alexander Moore (soldier) on the United States military history task force page. However, I believe there is a syntax error in your code because there is no place to click on to discuss. It stands out from all the other posts in that section as not having the discussion component. Without a discussion no I am sure no decision can be made to keep or delete the page. I just thought you would appreciate if I brought this to your attention. Boston1775 (talk) 19:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

This is a WP:Proposed deletion, which is a different mechanism to WP:AfD. Fram (talk) 08:37, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Vera Chapman

Leaving the arguments for and against deletion to one side, I thought I'd comment on you filing an AfD within 18 minutes of the article having been started. You may not have had a look at the history tab; if that is the case, then I encourage you to do so before filing nominations. Such a speedy nomination is extremely poor form and does not win you any friends. An apology to the article creator for this lapse would go a long way. Schwede66 04:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

• "Extremely poor form"? That's new page patrolling, you get a new page, you look at what the page has to offer, you look at what the net has to offer (books etcetera), and then you make a decision about e.g. deletion, draftifying, ... The page may change drastically afterwards, but the available sources don't really change. The same happened here, there have been tons of edits, but providing actual significant sources, indepth reviews of the artist, are still missing. I'm not here to win any friends (nor to make any enemies), nor to give every article a certain lifespan before being judged and potentially deleted. Fram (talk) 05:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I believe I have said elsewhere that you have got better since WP:FRAMGATE and you have done good work with insightful comments. However, this AfD was a prime example of WP:BLUDGEON; you could have given Missvain and RebeccaGreen a chance to improve the article and then ducked out of the AfD having solidly made your case for deletion. If you want this to succeed, you need to distance yourself from this sort of conduct. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:57, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Let's see, after the initial problems to explain to an editor that two sources with different names were actually the same (the now collapsed section), I replied in a discussion of one keep vote, and one keep vote only, and made 6 comments there. I did not reply to every or even most votes, just the one. Arguments and sources were given from both positions, yes. AfD is supposed to be a discussion, so discussing things (based on contents, policies and guidelines, not on persons) is what I did. You closed it as "starting to descend into name calling", if you feel any of my posts fit that description, please be more explicit. I'm not going to avod a discussion solely because someone may oppose an RfA because of it, and certainly not when such a vote would misrepresent what actually happened at the AfD. Bludgeoning is "Typically, the person replies to almost every "!vote" or comment, arguing against that particular person's point of view". Which I didn't. "Sometimes, a long comment or replying multiple times to answer questions or concerns within a conversation is perfectly acceptable. When someone takes persistence to a level that overwhelms or intimidates others, or limits others' ability to interject their opinions without worrying about being verbally attacked, then this activity has risen to a level of abuse. " I don't see any indication that people felt intimidated against posting their opinion, and no one was verbally attacked. But you see this not just as bordering on, or approaching "bludgeoning", no, it is "a prime example" of it! Perhaps raise it at AN or ANI, so other admins can give their opinion on this as well, before you block me next time when I so thoroughly bludgeon another discussion. Otherwise, save the lectures for real problems. Fram (talk) 16:24, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

FTR, the "name calling" was primarily directed towards Pigsonthewing and NotButtigieg. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

note re your edits

I saw your revert of my category edits on some Batman articles. no problem, totally fine. by the way, it's nice to meet you!! I just became aware of the recent controvery that you had experienced a while back, when I was reading pages last night. I had never heard of it before. it is funny to meet you in person so soon after. I actually didn't know you were back. glad you're here. thanks. cheers!! --Sm8900 (talk)

we would like to know what we should do to complete this process.

Hi Fram, Thank you very much for your support. I first created the Wikipedia page on 6th of Jan. 2020. Then I received the message regarding the copyright infringement from Wikipedia.*

For one section of our texts I used texts from https://www.poetryinternational.org/pi/site/poet/item/13889/31/Wakako-Kaku. I immediately deleted the section.

After this, I received another message from Wikipedia saying

"This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be an unambiguous copyright infringement."

This page appears to be a direct copy from wikitia.com/index.php?title=Wakako_Kaku&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop

It seems that this wikitia site was created after we uploaded our first text on July 6th.

Everything in our current contents is written by us in our original words and we would like to know what we should do to complete this process. I have restored the article to Draft:Wakako_Kaku .

We appreciate your support on this matter.

Castor KakuWakako (talk) @ 12:54:08, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1977 establishments in Samoa

A tag has been placed on Category:1977 establishments in Samoa requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 02:26, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

barnstar

		The Dungeons & Dragons Barnstar
		For extraordinary efforts cleaning up WP:FANCRUFT. Chetsford (talk) 21:46, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

"Cipolin" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Cipolin. Since you had some involvement with the Cipolin redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Steel1943 (talk) 22:59, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1977 in Samoa

A tag has been placed on Category:1977 in Samoa requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 05:58, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Robert Cristian Trif

Dear Fram,

There is an page by the name Robert Cristian Trif which is being protected since it has been recreated again. He is a notable person in Romania and UAE. He was a Wikipedia page in Romanian Language just that the english language need to be linked to make it more clear. Could you please help with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terminatorwil (talk • contribs) 00:04, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

New Page Reviewer newsletter February 2020

Hello Fram,

Source Guide Discussion

The first NPP source guide discussion is now underway. It covers a wide range of sources in Ghana with the goal of providing more guidance to reviewers about sources they might see when reviewing pages. Hopefully, new page reviewers will join others interested in reliable sources and those with expertise in these sources to make the discussion a success.

Redirects

New to NPP? Looking to try something a little different? Consider patrolling some redirects. Redirects are relatively easy to review, can be found easily through the New Pages Feed. You can find more information about how to patrol redirects at WP:RPATROL.

Discussions and Resources

• There is an ongoing discussion around changing notifications for new editors who attempt to write articles.
• A recent discussion of whether Michelin starred restraunts are notable was archived without closure.
• A resource page with links pertinent for reviewers was created this month.
• A proposal to increase the scope of G5 was withdrawn.

Refresher

Geographic regions, areas and places generally do not need general notability guideline type sourcing. When evaluating whether an article meets this notability guideline please also consider whether it might actually be a form of WP:SPAM for a development project (e.g. PR for a large luxury residential development) and not actually covered by the guideline.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 7095 Low – 4991 High – 7095

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here

16:08, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

"The Al Jilwah (The Black Book of Satan)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The Al Jilwah (The Black Book of Satan). Since you had some involvement with the The Al Jilwah (The Black Book of Satan) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 02:53, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Archiving means moving, not duplicating

Hi, saw your comment on DGGs talk.

Just found your comment so soft and careful it comes curiously close to misleading - if DGG is merely copying stuff to his archive, something's wrong. It's not that he's failing to help. He's actively making things worse! Maybe better bring this up with the proper community: how to get experienced editors showing "hoarder" syndrome to realize they need to seriously clean up their talk page?

Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 15:39, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Gerhard Lichtenfeld

Draft:Gerhard Lichtenfeld, - somewhere in moving that from Draft and back, the AfC template got lost. Please, informally, can you check it it's good enough to be moved to Main space, and if not, tell me what's missing? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:44, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Films by Sidney Olcott

Hello, there!

I'm permission to return some film articles directed by Sidney Olcott because the reference is commonly used for other films.

If it's wrong, please revert my edits and i'm sorry. Thank you. Wagino 20100516 (talk) 16:58, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

not straight forward

i feel warn out when another editor follows in - it is going into sandbox for reasons I am not sharing onwiki - if you want to pursue the issue, you need to be a little more careful than resintating something that needs to be out of mainspace for a range of reasons. I do not do 'draft' under any circumstances. Not helpful.JarrahTree 09:33, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

read the talk page deletion record - please leave alone, thanks JarrahTree 09:35, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@JarrahTree:, if it is this sensitive, then the best thing you can do is not just blanking it, but moving it out of the mainspace at the same time, to avoid it being seen by others (and, as in this case, reverted). Whatever needs then to be done (deletion, oversight, ...) can just as easily be done in whatever location you put it in, ut the page won't appear in e.g. a list of new pages. "Sandboxing" is a completely meaningless edit summary, and nothing in the page indicates problems so serous that they might warrant your action (if the page is a copyvio, then we have enough means to deal with this: and I can not imagine how this page would be anything worse than a copyvio or a hoax, which again doesn't warrant this kind of action). Fram (talk) 09:42, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

So, looking at the deletion record, your problem is that the page has been deleted before? That's it? Please follow standard procedures to deal with this, but don't vandalize pages and then invent fake CSD reasons to get your desired (and perhaps warranted) result. The page is not an A1 candidate by a mile. Fram (talk) 09:43, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I have just lost so much to damned edit conflicts and you have accused me of everything under the sun, please give me time to reply ? JarrahTree 09:53, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

the asusmptions you are jumping to are totally missing the pont, I do not wish to pursue on wiki - if you want a full off wiki explanation warts and all you are most welcome, otherwise, not here just now. Otherwise give it time, so it doesnt go escalating something rather simple into something crazy. JarrahTree 09:58, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

forget it - your actions show you have no interest in an explanation, or why your reinstating the csd as you have simply reflects my lack of faith you actually understand what has happened and why it doesnt resolve by repeating an earlier action. JarrahTree 10:04, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't have the faintest idea what you are trying to explain here. Perhaps you should contact some admin you trust, explain the problem to them, and ask them for advice on how best to resolve such issues? You can always ask them to get the page salted, so it can't be recreated again. If there are much more serious issues with the article, you should contact WP:OVERSIGHT to get it hidden from sight completely and to block the editor; but if the issue is just that they are trying to create a page for a non-notable artist, and are doing this by posting copyright violations, then your approach to it is totally wrong and your reactions here way over te top. Fram (talk) 10:21, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I am glad we disagree, you have no understanding of what it was about, and the issues are so far removed from your assumptions, and from the appearance of things everything has been deleted and blocked, I honestly hope we dont have to have a conversation like this ever again. cheers JarrahTree 10:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Considering that the editor was blocked for copyvio, the page deleted for copyvio, nothing has been oversighted or salted, and you felt the need to post incomprehensible posts here, and at the blocked editor talk page, and personal attacks at Shirt's talkpage... I feel pretty confident that my approach was the right one, and your actions completely indefensible and if repeated blockworthy. Fram (talk) 10:35, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

wrong - shirt and I are australian friends, and have had somee arlier contact over other issues and he has had explanation as to the reality. The point was wazdanny was a new user last weekend who also had actually written the material on spotify - a local editor didnt bother to check the issue and tagged - I fail to see how trying to help a new user survive his first week is in any way anything to do with your reasoning - you never gave me the opportunity to explain above but simply escalated your reasoning from no evidence that wazdanny was a copvio abuser - of his own textual material - extraordinarily ironic that you consider your responses, if you had allowed me to either contact you offline or explain between the edit conflicts - the rather absurd coypvio issue could have been explained and resolved. JarrahTree

a local editor didnt bother to check the issue — This local editor, who tagged May O'Neill for deletion the first time (along with other articles [11][12]) did check the source and saw that it was apparently by "By Thomas A.C. Murrell", and there's nothing to suggest that Wazdanny is Murrell. (If Wazdanny is Murrell, then the account is a potential sock-puppet of Thomasmurrell, and had a COI in writing Thomas Andrew Calvert Murrell. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I must apologise if I seem at times somewhat short with your explanations - the issue is to do with a total breakdown of communication between a few editors during a new editor event just last weekend, and the lack of adequate explanation at the time about material which has caused wazdanny material to be deleted, and the editor blocked. He was a new user last weekend. I had hoped to try to remove the material off mainspace and was no doubt out of order with the process, and also with my responses to you. For that I apologise unreserdvedly. It is a pity because wazdanny was the author of the alledged copyvio material, but then irony doesnt seem to carry well on wikipedia. I do hope you understand. thanks JarrahTree 10:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for the apology. Please note that the articles the editor tried to create were not only (technically) copyright violations, but the subjects were completely lacking in notability as well (with the possible but dubious exception of Thomas Murrell), so would have been deleted anyway. Fram (talk) 11:02, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your understanding, that is appreciated - the point at which we first interacted was problematic... there is a lot more to the story, but I will spare you the detail. JarrahTree 11:06, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Question re process for categories

Hi Fram. thanks for your highly substantive and constructive input, on the category of Category: Conceptual species roles. you have made some important and very constructive points. by the way, I have opened a section at WP:AN, asking for guidance from any admin, to help me understand the best way to create a new category. was there something disruptive, or improper, or anything that could or should be addressed or handled differently, regarding how I created this new category? If so, then I apologize, I would be glad to improve my approach, to make sure to follow the correct process and steps, and to avoid any such pitfalls in the future. I would greatly appreciate your help. Any feedback or guidance that you could please offer would be greatly appreciated. i appreciate it. Please ping me when you reply. thanks. cheers!! --Sm8900 (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Ok got it RYAZZ (talk) 17:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

" Mosunmola Odumosu suffered intensely from stillbirth and was often confronted with ill- health problems."

Hmmm Johnbod (talk) 17:05, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

: :-D Fram (talk) 08:34, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Deletion Of BonBros Records

This Page is about Music Label that was launched Few months back. They have already launched a Music Album Titled "Attachment" which was a Huge hit in YouTube garnering around 9.8 Million Views. The star pair of the song Actors Siddharth Nigam and Avneet Kaur's chemistry was highly praised by the viewers. The label has now also announced their next project "Tu Mera Bhai Hai". I believe that this Music label although new to the industry will be a successful and most sought after label in the future, which is supported by the fact that their first venture was a huge success when nowadays most new labels who are well established are struggling. Not just that This page will go through more changes as the the label progresses in the future. I have seen some pages in the indian music label category which are much less informative and organised than this page. They have not been recommended for any kind of deletion..

Please reconsider yourself Please go through these references. They are the official instagram page of the label(1),Official Youtube Channel(2) and the song Attachment(3). Ashish065 (talk) 14:50, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

(by talk reader) @Ashish06: Those sources are unacceptable, per WP:SPS. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:19, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Baaghi film series

Hey its not fully completed. I'm working on it. I told it in summary. Please give me some time. That was my first article. RYAZZ (talk) 14:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

(by talk reader) @RYAZZ: Develop that content in your user sandbox rather than the main namespace. That way, you can build it until it's ready. Otherwise, it's fair game. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1560s establishments in the Captaincy General of Chile

A tag has been placed on Category:1560s establishments in the Captaincy General of Chile requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1563 in the Captaincy General of Chile

A tag has been placed on Category:1563 in the Captaincy General of Chile requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:37, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1570s disestablishments in the Captaincy General of Chile

A tag has been placed on Category:1570s disestablishments in the Captaincy General of Chile requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1750 in the Captaincy General of Chile

A tag has been placed on Category:1750 in the Captaincy General of Chile requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1810s disestablishments in the Captaincy General of Chile

A tag has been placed on Category:1810s disestablishments in the Captaincy General of Chile requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:05, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1810s establishments in the Captaincy General of Chile

A tag has been placed on Category:1810s establishments in the Captaincy General of Chile requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:06, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Albert Uderzo

On 27 March 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Albert Uderzo, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Indefensible (talk) 18:41, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

"Ganga flim(1965)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Ganga flim(1965). Since you had some involvement with the Ganga flim(1965) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 22:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Recreating the Cassandra Martyrs of Charity page

Hi there. I was considering creating a page for the Cassandra Martyrs of Charity, but noticed that "at 13:42, 2 November 2018" you deleted the page under the rationale "G12: Unambiguous copyright infringement: http://www.bantayog.org/chuidian-mary-consuelo-remedios/." My intent is to re-create the page from scratch, after gathering various sources. I think there is enough, and I will slowly build up the page over the next few days (beginning within the day, I think). But as suggested, I just wanted to give you a heads up. Thanks! - Chieharumachi (talk) 02:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)That was not a "wiki"; that was an article in Wikipedia. A wiki is a kind of website such as Wikipedia. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:29, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I have renamed the section accordingly. Please note that I have now also re-created the page. - Chieharumachi (talk) 03:00, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Jacques Blamont

On 15 April 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Jacques Blamont, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 01:54, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Gene Deitch

On 20 April 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Gene Deitch, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Spencer^T•C 21:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for François Lafortune Jr.

On 22 April 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article François Lafortune Jr., which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 00:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Boel

Just to clarify: Boel is the biological daughter of Albert, the king. However, she is NOT (yet) his legal daughter! Albert has stated in the press that he will not deny it anymore nor challenge it. However, and this is the key issue here, the court has to make it official! This is scheduled to happen in June (at least before the Corona outbreak, it might take longer now). So legally she still has a different father! A biological father is not necessary the legal father. Boel is biologically Albert his daughter, but officially the daughter of Jacques Boel. It is all about "the law". It might not make much sense, but it does. You can kinda see it as an adoption. When the court finally decided about the case, we will know more details. As for her being in the infobox as one of his kids: I do not mind at all, but the sentence about her not being is legal daughter is still important.Garnhami (talk) 14:14, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

No, legally she has no father now, and for all purposes Albert II is her father legally and biologically. She is no longer the daughter of Jacques Boel, and hasn't been since last year, e.g. here, so please don't state that she is "officially" or otherwise the daughter of Jacques Boel. Fram (talk) 14:41, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

no, you are partly incorrect. The part about Jacques boel not being her father anymore,that is true, I forgot about the ruling of the court, however, she is NOT Albert his daughter officially yet in terms of the legal state. Do you either speak French or Dutch as a native language? If you do here is an article: https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20200128_04824756 Garnhami (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

On article Master Viswam

Hi, I have created that article to provide reliable information on a forgotten child actor who shot to fame during early era of Telugu cinema. I am trying to collect as much information as possible from reliable sources. It would be nice if you can help me in this regard. Thank you very much. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 14:39, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I managed to get an authentic and reliable source. If not for your flag, I coulnt have found it. Thank you very much. All the best in your wikipedia experience. Bsskchaitanya (talk) 16:31, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1937 in Tajikistan

A tag has been placed on Category:1937 in Tajikistan requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:09, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

sadly

Thank you for updating Martin Lovett, - did you know his interview? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

No, I just saw his death when searching for people who had recently died and whose articles needed updating. Fram (talk) 07:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I tried, and that interview is lovely. He received some welcome attention when on the Main page for 4 days. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:18, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Temple Owls football during World War I

Would you mind if I procedural close Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1917 Temple Owls football team, as the article creator has changed the article's scope and title to include the history of the Temple Owls football program during World War II? This would not preclude you from nominating the new topic for deletion, but I think these changes have wholly changed the discussion and renders your arguments for deleting the individual season article mostly moot. Eagles 24/7 (C) 20:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I have replied there. Basically this is bad form (not from you) and boils down to window-dressing which has fooled some others apparently. Nothing has changed fundamentally. Fram (talk) 07:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

No problem, and I understand your concerns. Eagles 24/7 (C) 12:26, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Oops

Thanks for that at ANI. Totally a misclick. John from Idegon (talk) 16:29, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

No problem, it looked a bit strange, but nothing to raise a fuss about. I have plenty of misclicks as well, though rarely resulting in the removal of 100K :-) Fram (talk) 07:13, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Shooting of David McAtee nominated for DYK

Hi. I know you're an experienced editor and I don't want to step on any toes, but I saw the article in the new page feed and nominated it for DYK: Template:Did you know nominations/Shooting of David McAtee.

Sincerely, The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 22:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. No problem, everyone is free to nominate articles for DYK or ITN. Fram (talk) 06:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

RE:Outing

Fram, did you really post this? Really??? I am about to request that it be suppressed for WP:OUTING. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:16, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

If someone's user name is the same as their real name, and they provide that much identifying information, then it isn't really outing, is it? "unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia. If they had used another ID, I would not have posted it, but here... Same name, age, occupation, interests, and location, not much "outing" involved. Fram (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

And from that same page: " references to still-existing, self-disclosed information are not considered outing." (the "still-existing" part refers to any information still available in the history, i.e. not deleted, revision-deleted, or suppressed). So no, this was not outing, and I would urge you to undo your revision deletion. Fram (talk) 07:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@MelanieN: have you actually looked at the version of his user page I linked to[13]? It contained, at the very top, a link to his blog[14]. What does that blog learn us, apart from showing a photo of a very similar looking man? "four arrests, no convictions". Hey look, what does the press claim the blog of Martin Gugino states? "His blog states he has been arrested four times with no convictions."[15]. Oh, and that blog, which he linked to from his own user page here, also states that he lives in Amherst.

Oh, Factcheck.org actually links to his blog[16], and surprise, it is the very same blog that this Wikipedia user, who has the very same name and all the same characteristics, has put on his user page.

Please tell me, what exactly have I outed that he hadn't put here in the first place? His name, his blog, his history, his interests, ... ? It is all there, and it is all clear. If he didn't want to be known, he probably shouldn't have edited under his own name, shouldn't have linked his blog, and shouldn't have posted that amount of personal information. But it looks as if he didn't have any problem to be connected to his Wikipedia edits. Fram (talk) 11:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)No offense, Melanie, but sometimes accusations of WP:OUTING reach the point of absurdity, and this is a prime example. --Orange Mike | Talk 11:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN, this is an editor using their real name, and linking to their real life identity (via their blog) on their user page, so I don't see how calling this OUTING and deleting Fram's post is justified.-- P-K3 (talk) 13:25, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

• My concern would rather be WP:BLP than WP:OUTING. If the press haven't picked up, we shouldn't be giving ideas, so I'm OK with the post having been removed from the article talk page. I'm glad it is visible again via page history, but, imho, that's where it should stay. Writing something about a fellow editor which may be opportune or less opportune can be assessed according to the WP:OUTING guidance: whether that fellow editor thinks something has or has not been outed about them is, in that case, a normal part of that assessment (unless it is an obvious outing, which this is not). If the fellow editor doesn't edit, while in hospital, it is best to stay on the safe side of WP:BLP, and suggest nothing about the matter on the article talk page: the press can work it out (or not), but only if they do we can do so too in the related article(s), and/or other page(s) directly related to such page(s), such as the related talk page(s). For all we know, after having been in the news following this incident, the first thing they do after returning to editing Wikipedia, hopefully in the foreseeable future, they ask for a courtesy blanking (being fed up with press harassment), or, otherwise, more inclined to bravura, suggest that the prior arrests info be more prominently displayed in Wikipedia. We simply don't know, so walk cautiously for BLP reasons. Does that make sense? --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I apologize, Fram. I didn't investigate the account deeply enough, and I see that the revdel has already been reversed. I was already distressed to see that this has been made into an article, although it probably does deserve one; I was just feeling sorry for the guy and thinking about WP:VICTIM. Especially now that he is likely to become a target of all kinds of harassment, due to the OANN attack and Trump repeating it to the world. But that is not a WP:NEUTRAL attitude for me to take and I apologize. I think having it in the history, but not right there on the page, is probably the best outcome. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:56, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, no harm done. Cases of outing are better safe than sorry, and as long as you (we, all) are willing to reconsider our actions, there is no real problem. Doesn't mean that I will shut up if I think a mistake has been made ;-) but it was made with good intentions, not out of malice. Fram (talk) 15:01, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I turned it into a separate article for two reasons: one was that the info was being added extensively in four places, which is not efficient (and was, perhaps not overwhelming, but taking up too much space in those articles); and two was the Trump tweet and the immediate many reactions to it from around the world (in RS I mean). Seeing that it got yesterday more than 40,000 page views, I guess this indeed needed a separate page, as many people wanted to read up on this and get all the essential info in one page. Fram (talk) 07:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Reche Caldwell

On 11 June 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Reche Caldwell, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 03:03, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Emmanuel Issoze-Ngondet

On 12 June 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Emmanuel Issoze-Ngondet, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Black Kite (talk) 21:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

RE GYAT

I have left a somewhat basic explanation for PPEscientist in that thread. I suspect whoever at GYAT has been dealing with this has been oversold/misinformed as to what wikipedia does by a wikipedia editor (you can guess who). It looks like something that would more naturally fit at Wikidata, but I am not sure as a project its actually in scope there either, as its not about adding anything, its about tracking. But its certainly not - either in practice or from what I can tell by design - intended to improve articles ultimately. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, they probably can point to some article, somewhere, they indirectly improved or so. But that hardly counterbalances the massive webhost issues. Discussions with the editor involved nearly always seem very complicated though, very hard to get through to them or to get them to explain their position in a format which is somehow comprehensible and can be followed logically. Fram (talk) 10:15, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I just browsed their userpage. Once you weed out all the notices, a lot of the posts are either complaints or advice which get met with reflex-aggression or condescension. From that discussion at AN they are not actually interested in listening. The bit at the top where they "misunderstand" the difference in 'creating a user' and 'creating a user page' is telling. Their command of English is fine and they have been here long enough that it streches credibility to think they did not know exactly what was meant, and that seems to a hallmark of communication with them, which is why I addressed my comments for the most part to PPE. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:21, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Working on SJK(C) Tun Tan Siew Sin

PLEASE don't apply speedy deletion to it, I am still working on it. Can't you read my words. You can also help to improve it rather than deleting my chance and dreams to create this page. STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING, please. Thank you if you stop, and that's all for now. BYE.

Wikipedia improvement issue

If user fram wanted to discuss whether to delete my article or not, I think FRAM has an issue. Not that i am being impolite or acting like an impudent man, but you have a problem. Many Malaysian primary school pages is worse than mine, I have my notability for writing this article. Like SJK(C) Damansara page, it is worse than mine and it is a stub (it gives no proper info but just a bland history). Lots more primary school deserve to be deleted rather than mine in my opinion. Moreover, I AM IMPROVING IT. If you are a responsible Wikipedian who want to turn the website green and wanted to keep the quality of it, plz don't delete my article. My article has notability and have rights to stay, go delete others that don't have the information to bring and is worse than mine. Reply soon, Stop your discourage and unfriendly behavior, help save those young and let them have opportunity to grow. Hypersonicman 11 ^UTC+8

Help me improve my article instead of deleting it

Please help me. Thank you. MY ARTICLE- Sekolah Jenis Kebangsaan (Cina) Tun Tan Siew Sin

Please help my article Mohammed Akther Parvez to be safe instead of deletion. I am adding more valid reference. Thanks PHP Ehsan (talk) 14:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

New Page Reviewer newsletter June 2020

Hello Fram,

Your help can make a difference

NPP Sorting can be a great way to find pages needing new page patrolling that match your strengths and interests. Using ORES, it divides articles into topics such as Literature or Chemistry and on Geography. Take a look and see if you can find time to patrol a couple pages a day. With over 10,000 pages in the queue, the highest it's been since ACPERM, your help could really make a difference.

Google Adds New Languages to Google Translate

In late February, Google added 5 new languages to Google Translate: Kinyarwanda, Odia (Oriya), Tatar, Turkmen and Uyghur. This expands our ability to find and evaluate sources in those languages.

Discussions and Resources

• A discussion on handling new article creation by paid editors is ongoing at the Village Pump.
• Also at the Village Pump is a discussion about limiting participation at Articles for Deletion discussion.
• A proposed new speedy deletion criteria for certain kinds of redirects ended with no consensus.
• Also ending with no change was a proposal to change how we handle certain kinds of vector images.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 10271 Low – 4991 High – 10271

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

User:GlobalYoungAcademyTeam

You chose to suggest speedy deletion for subpages of User:GlobalYoungAcademyTeam. For your info, we are in the process of getting a WMF affiliation. I will move the content to my user page in preparation for a more permanent destination. THanks, GerardM (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Hopefully Wikidata, where this belongs. Fram (talk) 08:06, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:BLP unsourced

Template:BLP unsourced has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. –User456541 19:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

ThANks,

I really appreciate your hard-work to ensure and maintain Wikipedia's (GOOD) quality. Also, plz accept my apology for trying to mess thing up for you. However, i hope you can be considerate to new users. THANKS, YOU'VE really DESERVED A BARNSTAR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypersonic man 11 (talk • contribs) 07:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Sealand nobles

I back you on your decision to nominate. However it looks like we have a nutter on our hands! Davidstewartharvey (talk) 20:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC) Hi, This is Ehsan, I worked on the page "Mohammed Akther Parvez" which is being tagged for deletion. He is the manaing director of PHP Automobiles and the son of Sufi Mohammed Mizanur Rahman and well known in Bangladesh. I am attaching all the related citation about him from reliable source. please consider . — Preceding unsigned comment added by PHP Ehsan (talk • contribs) 10:46, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Angela Madsen

On 26 June 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Angela Madsen, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 04:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

"A list of local Ugandan television stations." listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect A list of local Ugandan television stations.. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 1#A list of local Ugandan television stations. until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. UnitedStatesian (talk) 16:29, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of List of Belgian family mottos

A tag has been placed on List of Belgian family mottos requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section R2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect from the article namespace to a different namespace except the Category, Template, Wikipedia, Help, or Portal namespaces.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. DannyS712 (talk) 12:48, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

F off

Hi! It appears that my essays at WP:CANCER, WP:YWAB and WP:1AM have still left some people who are not pissed off at me, so I am working on a new essay which I plan on titling "F Off".

In the first section, I plan on expanding on what you recently wrote ("or in another instance were a seemingly abusive 'F off' edit summary was a) directed at myself, because b) I had made a typo, introducing an 'f' where it wasn't needed, so I took the 'f off' "). I want to document everything, starting with a diff of the actual edit. I am also looking at any examples of someone criticizing you for writing "F off" or using it as evidence against you.

In the second part of the essay, I plan on making a strong argument against secret evidence, with some historical examples in the real world of abuse drawing heavily on the original reasoning behind the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution, with possible references to Secret trials, the Star Chamber, Open justice, Liberal Reform#Secret courts, Open court principle, and maybe even the Secret Court of 1920

Do you have diffs of the edit and of anyone commenting on the edit summary without looking at the context? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

When this appeared on my watchlist, my thought was "1) Whoa! I didn't know these two didn't get along! 2) Why go to someone's talk page just to tell them to F off?" Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:09, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Exactly the effect I was hoping for. :) Now we wait for somebody to report me for incivility at ANI... I better yet, at T&S! Hilarity will ensue... --Guy Macon (talk) 06:00, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

It was included in the evidence section of my latest ArbCom case (well, the only actual arbcom case about me, the others were either rejected cases or cases I started where I was thus a party). No diff immediately, sorry, I would need to dig this up. Fram (talk) 06:56, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Ewa Borkowska (speed skater, born 1973)

Hi Fram, I saw you moved Ewa Borkowska (speed skater, born 1973) to the draft space. Can you please explain why you did this? (The reason you mention in the edit summary is not in line with the references I refered to in the article). It could have been a good idea to discuss it or mention it on the talk page. SportsOlympic (talk) 17:48, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I already reverted your edits. Still wondering why you moved the page without checking the references and claiming the page is wrong. SportsOlympic (talk) 11:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, you have the choice between the page being wrong, or the person lacking all notability. The results and PRs at speedskatingnews are completely different to the ones you have in the article. If the article is right (and the source I link to not about her despite the full name), then why would she be notable? Appearing in one world cup in her home country, no world championship appearances, PRs which aren't really that impressive... This would need much better evidence of notability than what is provided now. Fram (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

At Wikipedia it’s very important to use reliable sources. If you make a statement about something; please make sure it’s reliable. You come up with the soeedskatingnews reference, not always reliable, and you didn’t check your statements. It’s known that the personal records at speedskatingnews are not always accurate; so the personal records of speedskatingbase should be used. As I did. Also the starts at world championships are not correct. Speedskatingnews confused her with Ewa Borkowska (speed skater, born 1967). So this reference should not be used in this article. Reliable references should be used, like I did. As she participated at the World Cups she meets the speed skating guideliness at WP:NSPORT. I labeled the article as a wikipedia:Stub: “An article too short to provide more than rudimentary information about a subject“ And maybe for now her personal best are not impressive; but you have to place them in that era. Without klap-skates; much less aerodynamic suits, etc. If you compare her times with the international times at the World Allround Championships in the late 1980s and early 1990s, it was not bad at all. SportsOlympic (talk) 19:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I've removed your addition to NSPORTS as it didn't have consensus, and started a discussion about it on the talk page. I'll bring Borkowska to AfD. Fram (talk) 07:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh, and about your dismissal of speedskatingnews.info: you know that you had added it to the article, no? Fram (talk) 07:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I saw this AfD-nomination since I follow the talkpage of SportsOlympic. And I also thought that they were both notable speed skaters, so I asked on a facebookgroup, I'm a member of (WCSC), which has some several good speed skating statistics-people and also speed skating officials as members and some have also close connections with the site Speedskatingnews.info. And Melanie Symalla through Dirk Gundel confirms that both speed skaters named Ewa Borkowska (namely: Ewa Justyna Wasilewska-Borkowska and Ewa Sylwia Borkowska) have participated in international championships. Best regards Migrant (talk) 20:49, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

"Duane Barry(The X-Files)" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Duane Barry(The X-Files). The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 20#Duane Barry(The X-Files) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 02:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Deletion review for Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 July 20

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 July 20. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. SportsOlympic (talk) 14:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

In case you don't have pings turned on...

Hello, Fram. You have new messages at Barkeep49's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:30, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Shooting of David McAtee

On 26 July 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Shooting of David McAtee, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the chief of the Louisville Metro Police Department was fired after the mayor learned that officers' body cameras were off during the shooting of David McAtee? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Shooting of David McAtee. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Shooting of David McAtee), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Buffalo police shoving incident

On 28 July 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Buffalo police shoving incident, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that after a shoving incident involving a 75-year-old man, two Buffalo police officers were suspended and charged with assault? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Buffalo police shoving incident. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Buffalo police shoving incident), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks

For the code deletion AfD. Are you going to nom more stuff from {{Character_encodings}}? I see much more similar stuff there that is not included in your AfD. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:35, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm first waiting for the result of the AfD, and then I might have a go at other similar pages (obviously not the main, notable ones like 1252, but the many others that seem comparable to the edcdic ones). But I thought that this AfD was large enough as it was, and clearly defined; adding more pages, with the chance that I included a few notable ones, would only have muddied the waters and led to more "keep" votes (e.g. by the "keep, WP:BEFORE not done" brigade). Fram (talk) 08:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

User talk:Hoge Raad van Adel

Dear Fram, unfortunately I am not so familiar with the habits on WP:EN, as you are, regarding user names. I know this user name would immediately be blocked at WP:NL since this is the official name of an official council with special legal tasks. In this case, it is even more misleading since this user has added false information in the article List of Dutch noble families. Could you help out or advice? Thanks, Paul Brussel (talk) 17:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

intitle:sandbox

Your patrol for implausible titles at intitle:sandbox was much appreciated. I noticed how some of them had gone many months without having been noticed by anyone else. Thanks, wbm1058 (talk) 15:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome! Trying to look for other problematic redirects, but no easy method so far (found a truckload of very poor ones by Polbot (e.g. EslizÓN TridÁCtilo IbÉRico or MÉTallure DorÉE), but these would need more checks; some are the native name with bad capitalization and need move and delete, and some aren't even the native name (e.g. the French name of a Peruvian bird) and simply need deletion). Too much work to find and list these, so I've left them alone for now. Fram (talk) 15:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

NSPORTS

There's a few sports that perennially spark debates for NSPORTS reform. At this point, I'm convinced on a conclusion I reached a few years back: "Unless we get domain-experts that are willing to clean up SNGs that are suspect, or engage enough non-experts to agree that it doesn't make sense and is only a local consensus, things will never change."[17] Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 13:22, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

This may well be true, but I recently succeeded in getting a bunch of Olympians deleted at AfD because all we knew about them was their last name, and having noticed how completely non-notable some of these cricketers are, I hope that the same can be achieved here. It is at least hopeful that so far only one person really believes these are automatically notable, and the evidence provided to support this is, well, not overwhelming. It is indeed hard to get these things to change, but I don't think it is impossible. Fram (talk) 13:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Fram, why are you on this crusade? I'd like to understand your deep underlying reasons. The reason I ask is because it seems to me to be doing more harm than good. Jeff in CA (talk) 17:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

(tps) I don't think it's a crusade. NSPORTS guidelines are in some cases ridiculously lax. If we can't build an article that actually tells the reader something useful about a person then that person probably shouldn't have an article. And that's coming from someone who used to create articles based on them, and has sdince gone back and looked at some and thought "yeah, not great". Black Kite (talk) 17:32, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

(by talk reader) @Jeff in CA: Only an inclusionist could think deleting insufficient articles "causes harm." We are curating an encyclopedia and not every jot and tittle of existence should be cataloged here. I think you need to identify why we should retain such articles. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I'll wait for Fram's reply. Jeff in CA (talk) 20:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Black Kite and Chris troutman. Fram (talk) 07:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Hey, Fram. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 04:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Fifteen Year Society

Dear Fram/Archive 37,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more. ​

Best regards, Chris Troutman (talk) 13:43, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1900 establishments in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1900 establishments in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Sockpuppet question

Hi Fram,

On the German Wikipedia, a user has shown up who apparently does not speak a word of German but is highly interested in publishing articles on Vietnamese university issues in different Wikipedias. A bit of research has led me to the sockpuppet case on Sdname9 which you seem to have initiated. I can't help but feel that this is a new one.

Now I tried to understand the sockpuppet instructions on the English Wikipedia, but the procedure seems very complicated. Also, I wasn't sure if this was the right way to go if there had already been an investigation in the past. In addition, I am not sure if I - as an unregistered user, and a user from another Wikipedia - am even allowed to do this.

What is your opinion on this? Thanks, --217.239.3.125 (talk) 12:57, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1900 in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1900 in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 04:17, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Kulbir Chhikara

@Fram have you any solid reason to apply this tag.... as per WP policy or WP general notability guideline. if not able to define than apply AFD tag on this page. As a WP it is an question mark on you and me and other option is discuss to improve this page Susheelgiri (talk) 09:52, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

The sources in the end have little information about Chhikara, but it is hard for me to look for potential sources in other languages. If there are no further sources, then I think an AfD may be needed, but the tag was intended for you (and others) to get a chance to add more and more indepth sources. Fram (talk) 11:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

This is referral link of Kulbir Chhikaria in Hindi Language... I am disappointing by your reply (but it is hard for me to look for potential sources in other languages). thousand of article is on news paper and web page are available.... if you have another personal issue then tell me.... other wise remove the tag till improvement or Apply for AFD.. I am disappointed without checking fact you applied the Tag: Twinkle and you don't have suitable reason. You know Wikipedia Page-views is going down and Google has been investing a lot along side Wikipedia to detect and reduce vandalism within Wikipedia Pl rethink on it....Susheelgiri (talk) 05:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Susheelgiri: Wait, what's his objection to the article? Elinruby (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

References

Precious anniversary

Precious

One year!

- DYK that the church we talked about some ime ago was "given" to me as one of "my places"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:45, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1991 disestablishments in Ecuador

A tag has been placed on Category:1991 disestablishments in Ecuador requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:44, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Notability

Hi Fram, I know you added the notability tag to 7-Up International Sandwich Garden and I may have jumped the gun on creating it. I think that it received press coverage back then and there are some books that I don't have access to yet. I'm still waiting for my newspapers.com access. I was expecting I'd have some time to find and add more citations and I was just going to merge it into the main article if I couldn't find anything else. Is that ok with you? Spudlace (talk) 07:19, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

No problem. It seemed a bit thin for a stand-alone article, but take your time! Fram (talk) 07:23, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Ziggy Stardust Tour

Hey, your dePRODding of this (and my subsequent expansion) leads me onto another point. As a longtime Bowie fan, I know what this article could look like (and I could improve it given the right book sources that I don't have right now), but at the moment it's basically crap, with a long list of unsourced indiscriminate information added by fans. However, there's never been a policy to delete an article because it's rubbish, no matter how long it's sat in that state (nearly 13 years in this case), even though I could make the argument that having no article would actually make the encyclopedia better overall, at least until it's improved. The information won't be lost, there's an adequate summary in the main Bowie article and some of the albums. However, until and unless somebody makes the effort to beef up the tour article, what's the real point of having it? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh, feel free to redirect it (to the Bowie article, or to the movie or live album article). It indeed gives a lot of database information and very little actual info about the impact and importance of the tour. But it should not be deleted as a non notable tour, as it isn't really an example of that category :-) Fram (talk) 11:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1983 in Yukon

A tag has been placed on Category:1983 in Yukon requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:55, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Your thread has been archived

Hi Fram! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, Problem with invitation template, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days (usually at least two days, and sometimes four or more). You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please feel free to . The archival was done by Lowercase sigmabot III, and this notification was delivered by Muninnbot, both automated accounts. You can opt out of future notifications by placing {{bots|deny=Muninnbot}} here on your user talk page. Muninnbot (talk) 19:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Container Cup

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Container Cup requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organized event (tour, function, meeting, party, etc.) that does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. noclador (talk) 10:06, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@Fram:, @Noclador:, bumping into this conversation, I was wondering if De Container Cup would be a better name. btw. they both are on datalink but should be merged. Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 14:56, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I find all versions of the name. English sources discuss the "Container Cup" and "The Container Cup" as well. Leaving off the "The" or "De" matches the standard for many other enwiki articles, and avoids the English vs. Dutch choice as well. But if people want to move it anyway, I won't lose any sleep over it ;-) Fram (talk) 15:04, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Certified_Professional_Coder

Hi Fram, I have created a draft page Draft:Certified_Professional_Coder and found a notice that historically you have turned down earlier draft due to copyright violation and message suggested me to get in touch with you before moving forward on this. It also mentioned that if I am starting with fresh and more information I can move forward on new draft creation.

Is there a way, I can see older version you have declined so that can I see what was mention there. Just to let you know I haven't created older draft and just trying to fresh start and don't want to repeat mistake done by previous person who was trying to create page on this topic.

Jamesinhere (talk) 16:35, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi James, unfortunately I have no longer access to the earlier version. In general, if it was deleted as a copyvio, we will not restore it or show it. You can ask at WP:REFUND to get e.g. a list of the references used in the earlier version (if any). Please, there as well, make it clear that the earlier version was deleted as a copyvio and that you are not asking for it to be restored, or people make take your request the wrong way (they shouldn't, but it happens). Fram (talk) 06:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Fram, Thanks for your help and guidance on this. I will try to get information via WP:REFUND Jamesinhere (talk) 14:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Gilberto Aleman

Hi, can you point out exactly where the copyvio is on this article? I had a look on various revisions using the copyvios tool but didn't spot it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Uh, the copyvio's tool doesn't work for translations, obviously. But translating copyrighted text is still a copyvio, or everyone would get rich selling their translation of Harry Potter:-)

"Aleman was known for rescuing his "universal mentality" precisely because of his nationalist adherence. He leaves behind an enormous passion for communicating, reflected in a hundred books and more than 10,000 newspaper articles that constitute an unavoidable reference for the contemporary history of Tenerife and the Canary Islands."

"Alemán, capaz de rescatar su «mentalidad universal» y el valor que ello tuvo, precisamente, por su adhesión nacionalista, como recordó Armas Marcelo, deja como legado una enorme pasión por comunicar, reflejada en un centenar de libros y más de 10.000 artículos periodísticos que hoy constituyen una referencia ineludible para quienes quieren conocer los episodios de la historia contemporánea de Tenerife y de Canarias. "

(the above is already removed, the below remains):

• "En 1954 se trasladó a Madrid, donde se tituló en la Escuela Oficial de Periodismo, y, tres años más tarde, regresó a Tenerife, donde inició su actividad profesional en el periódico «El Día»."

• "In 1954 he moved to Madrid where he graduated from the Official School of Journalism and three years later he returned to Tenerife where he began his professional activity at the newspaper El Día"

Other parts may be copied as well, these ones immediately catched my attention. Fram (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Okay, got it. I've removed the close paraphrasing and revision-deleted the earlier stuff, so hopefully that's caught all of it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Page mover

Hi Fram, I've applied the page mover user right to your account, which, among other things, allows you to move pages to draft without leaving behind a cross-namespace redirect. I hope you find this useful. Cheers, – bradv🍁 13:45, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Yes, that should come in handy: having to tag them with R2 only creates unnecessary work for admins. Fram (talk) 13:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Copyright violations investigation

Hello Frank. Thank you for let me know about your copyright violations investigation about some of the articles I have edited. I am all for the rule of law and Wikipedia policies, The Juan van der Hamen was problematic and after that, in 2006 I began to include references. The article Prince Gaetano of Bourbon-Parma was certainly mostly translated from the Spanish Wikipedia. The articles in sandboxes are sketches that are for future articles. I deleted the one you mentioned. I have worked on many articles through the years in the last ten or more I have included tons of references that can be verified. I have work ALWAYS in good faith.

If you have any questions or comments, I am more than happy to help you. Best regards --Miguelemejia (talk) 00:17, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello Frank. The article Princess Maria of Greece and Denmark is not a translation from the Finch article on the same subject. It defers greatly in form, style, and content; using a larger array of sources. The main writer of that article asked for a little help from me and credited me in the french article I certainly should have done the same as he was very helpful and kind to me. See the section Gracias on my talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Miguelemejia Best regards --Miguelemejia (talk) 19:23, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

@Miguelemejia: There are parts of that article which are straight translations of the French article. Whether a translation is complete or partial, even just some sentences, you must attribute it to the original. Fram (talk) 07:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Gampaha Municipal Council

Hi, this is regarding the deletion of the Gampaha Municipal Council article. The GMC is a first tier local government body in Sri Lanka with a population of 62,797 as per the Census of 2012 - [18]

Please reconsider your decision. Uvants (talk) 04:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

The page you link to gives a total population of some 15,000, not the 62,000 you claim. Gampaha even claims a population of less than 10,000. Can you point me to an article about the entity with 62,000 people which this council actually governs? If we don't have an article about that entity, then why create an article about its council? Fram (talk) 07:39, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

The source for Gampaha town having a population of 9167 is iffy at best. Municipal councils of Sri Lanka article gives the figure at 62,335, while the census gives an estimate of 67,990. In the 2018 LG Polls there were 49,816 electors. I can link to the Ministry for Local Government's delimitation on what constitutes a MC vs an Urban Council, but rest assured a hamlet of 10,000 would not get Tier 1 LG status in my country. Uvants (talk) 13:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. This was vandalism from 2017, I have now reverted it. I will undo the redirect of the council. Fram (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank You! 🙏🏽 Uvants (talk) 15:45, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Copyeditor's Barnstar
	Thanks for giving suggestions to me on my mistake 1Muskmelon (talk) 13:02, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Proposed creation of Main Page/sandbox

#REDIRECT [[Wikipedia:Main Page/sandbox]] JsfasdF252 (talk) 18:14, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

October harvest

thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Article that you might wish to nominate for AfD, PROD and merger

Hi, since your are focused on nominating articles like 1989_Swiss_Army_order_of_battle_(2nd_nomination), you might want to nominate for deletetion:

List of British Regular Army regiments (1962) and List of British Regular Army regiments (1994) both with have no sources and bare.

You might also want to look at this WP:PROD I made for List of British Army Regiments (2008).

Also this mergerTalk:Army_2020#Merger_proposal .

Do look at them. Reply here please. BlueD954 (talk) 14:40, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, but please take care not to WP:CANVASS editors you know are likely to take a certain position in such debates. It may come across as trying to stack the votes infavour of your prefered outcome. Fram (talk) 14:53, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I am clearly not. Bye.BlueD954 (talk) 14:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Category:7th-century establishments in Belgium‎ has been nominated for discussion

Category:7th-century establishments in Belgium‎ has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. GreyShark (dibra) 07:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_November_8#Category:6th_century_in_France for a similar but slightly more extensive nomination. – Fayenatic London 21:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Just a query

Hi Fram,

About 14 months ago you participated in one of the toughest RfAs ever seen to regain your bit - I didn't participate at the time as I was occupied with my concurrent run, but I did read through it all after the fact.

More relevantly, I've noticed your participation all over the place since, and it's always been positive - bluntly, more more uniformly than beforehand. And I'm far from the only one to have think you've done a great job since, as well.

At the risk of bringing up what I'm sure was a fairly intensely unpleasant area, have you considered re-running? I'm sure it would still be contentious, but I do think a large number of the opposes would no longer hold that position - I'd be a clear support and even a co-nom if you'd be interested (though there are better names on your last one than mine!) Nosebagbear (talk) 10:38, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated. At the moment I'm not yet thinking of running again, but I will consider your kind offer if and when I change my mind. I don't think I'm active enuogh at the moment to be a really useful admin. Fram (talk) 10:41, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Category:Latvia women's national football team managers has been nominated for deletion

Category:Latvia women's national football team managers has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Shyamsunder (talk) 10:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 7 December 2020. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.-- noclador (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

Hi. nice to e-meet you. hope I am getting sometimes to discuss about my recent input to the page "Mohammed Akther Parvez" PHP Ehsan (talk) 10:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Please let me improve the article and let this not be deleted. Thanks PHP Ehsan (talk) 14:48, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

"Snoopy's siblings" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Snoopy's siblings. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 26#Snoopy's siblings until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Sowell

Hi thankyou for your support in defending the article I created on Sowells book I really appreciate that. You referenced some great sources Id love it if you could help with improving the page! Certainly a strange article to be nominated for deletion for being " not notable"! It's got to be his most well known and I think best book. Best wishes. Gd123lbp (talk) 18:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1943 in Bahrain

A tag has been placed on Category:1943 in Bahrain requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:01, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Removing the tag of Speedly deletion for Ministry of Youth Services and Sports (West Bengal)

Please remove the tag. Show me which area is having problems (copyright violation). I will take care of this and you will review again ok. But remove this immediately else I will be blocked indefinitely. 🇮🇳DRCNSINDIA (talk) 10:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Heraldic badges of the Canadian Government

I have no objection to the article being deleted. I'll try to include any useful information within the individual articles on each department. Snd3054 (talk) 14:42, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. It is logical to include this information with the department article. You should have a week before any admin deletes this; you can also ask afterwards at WP:REFUND to get it moved temporarily to your userspace (sandbox) if you need more time to do this. Fram (talk) 15:10, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

"List of Swiss artists nominated for MTV Europe Music Awards" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect List of Swiss artists nominated for MTV Europe Music Awards. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 5#List of Swiss artists nominated for MTV Europe Music Awards until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Spiderone 11:08, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Rescue of Brahmin Girl

Please refer to page no. 47 of the reference source before its deletion. Ama975193 (talk) 04:17, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@Ama975193:, see without additional references an article cannot be accepted. Please add additional references and see WP:RS. Or if you need more time, I/admin will move this to draft namespace and add

subst:submit within {{}} to submit your draft for review. 🇮🇳GoWB🇮🇳 (ask me any questions) 12:45, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Can you re-review Manoj Verma for the second time?

No satisfied yet.🇮🇳GoWB🇮🇳 (ask me any questions) 08:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1904 establishments in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1904 establishments in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:50, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1908 establishments in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1908 establishments in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:51, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1909 establishments in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1909 establishments in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:52, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1912 establishments in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1912 establishments in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:54, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1916 establishments in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1916 establishments in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:56, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1900s establishments in Slovakia

A tag has been placed on Category:1900s establishments in Slovakia requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

New Page Patrol December Newsletter

Hello Fram,

Year in review

It has been a productive year for New Page Patrol as we've roughly cut the size of the New Page Patrol queue in half this year. We have been fortunate to have a lot of great work done by Rosguill who was the reviewer of the most pages and redirects this past year. Thanks and credit go to JTtheOG and Onel5969 who join Rosguill in repeating in the top 10 from last year. Thanks to John B123, Hughesdarren, and Mccapra who all got the NPR permission this year and joined the top 10. Also new to the top ten is DannyS712 bot III, programmed by DannyS712 which has helped to dramatically reduce the number of redirects that have needed human patrolling by patrolling certain types of redirects (e.g. for differences in accents) and by also patrolling editors who are on on the redirect whitelist.

Rank	Username	Num reviews	Log
1	DannyS712 bot III (talk)	67,552	Patrol Page Curation
2	Rosguill (talk)	63,821	Patrol Page Curation
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Reviewer of the Year

John B123 has been named reviewer of the year for 2020. John has held the permission for just over 6 months and in that time has helped cut into the queue by reviewing more than 18,000 articles. His talk page shows his efforts to communicate with users, upholding NPP's goal of nurturing new users and quality over quantity.

NPP Technical Achievement Award

As a special recognition and thank you DannyS712 has been awarded the first NPP Technical Achievement Award. His work programming the bot has helped us patrol redirects tremendously - more than 60,000 redirects this past year. This has been a large contribution to New Page Patrol and definitely is worthy of recognition.

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18:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:CFD

Hello, Fram,

Since I just posted messages to you earlier today that certain categories you created were empty, I thought you would want to know about this discussion on Slovakia categories in case you wanted to weigh in. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I had watchlisted them, so I was aware :-) Fram (talk) 08:27, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for catching the typo on the move.

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1902 establishments in Austria

A tag has been placed on Category:1902 establishments in Austria requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Les Pins tram stop

Firstly apologies, you modified this article whilst I was still creating it, and I overwrote your change without any explanation. That was unintentional, but I think an explanation is needed, hence this post.

I have to say that I disagree with your change. There are already 66 tram stop articles on Bordeaux tram stops, and many, many more on other systems, so the general consensus seems to be that they are generally notable. I don't see anything particularly un-notable about this one. If you disagree, I suggest you make a case on WP:AFD. Also your change was to make the article into a redir to a redir, which is not a good thing in itself. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 16:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

• No problem with the overwriting, and thanks for coming here. You are allowed to revert a change like the one I made anyway. Technically; I just took the first link from your article, I didn't notice that it was a redirect in itself: but a bot corrects these double redirects anyway.

• The existence of many articles on a subject is not necessarily an indicator that the group or all individual entries are notable or have consensus, there are plenty of examples of large groups of articles staying under the radar until someone started a discussion. I have, in the distant past, already done some AfDs for tram stops which ended in delete or redirect. In general (in my experience at least), train and metro stations are notable (they normally involve major investments and take years, although there are also train stations which are nothing but a concrete platform); bus stops are usually not notable (apart from the major hubs), and tram stops are somewhere in between. For stops like this one, which are fairly simple things, one of many, which get little individual attention in independent sources, the best solution is often to redirect them to an article about the line (or a list of stations on the line). I'll probably take it to AfD (alone or with similar stops, I'll have to see what's best). Fram (talk) 16:24, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

That is fair enough. As you will see, I have added a few such articles recently, but most are created by other people and have been around for a decade or so. The older ones are in need of tidy up, and I'm trying to do that as well. Also there are navigational templates for each line clearly created in the expectation that there would be articles per stop, and those templates are 12 years old now. None of this says that it is right, of course, but it does show that it ain't just me on some sort of fancruft campaign.

With regard to the bigger picture, I agree with you with respect to bus stops and bus routes, which are simply too ephemeral to sensibly be the subject of a wiki article. I actually think the same about tram routes, which is why you ended rediring to a redir (I replaced the articles with section redirs with beefed up route content in the Bordeaux tramway article some while ago). But tram stops, or at least stops on a modern light rail system like Bordeaux, seem to me to be more akin to a railway station; there is plenty of investment involved in building them and once built they don't often go away. So I incline to the view that they deserve an article.--chris_j_wood (talk) 16:46, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Whyte Chemicals

The article Whyte Chemicals has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Company that went bankrupt in 2018

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Bearian (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

CfD Suicides by occupation

Cleaned up the mess that I'd made of your nomination. I'd thought that by relisting after 22 had already been deleted, folks would work together and tag the remaining subcategories, or would do the work in batches. Didn't happen, and half the comments were procedural complaints that they weren't all tagged. So I've done a procedural withdrawal, indicating that the subcategories need to be nominated individually. I've done some today. Hopefully, in a week or so all of them will have been discussed, and we'll know whether to re-nominate the parent. Sorry....
William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)