Alcaios

Awareness of discretionary sanction topic areas:

Archive

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Bituriges

Thank you for identifying the two Bituriges tribes. Please can you assist in fixing the incoming links to the new disambiguation page? Some have been done but this task is proving difficult for the gnomes as the topics are easily confused. Thanks, Certes (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Certes:, I'll we working on it! Alcaios (talk) 12:11, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I know you are only reviewing many links, but this one seems strangely far from the Bituriges, and unsourced. Do you know any background to this claim of a connection to the Kempen?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Andrew Lancaster. In fact, in the process of batch disambiguation, I did not have the time to review whether the sentence is wrong or not. What I have done is a quick look at the context (in this case "other Loire Celtic and Belgian tribes of the Iron Age") in order to link to either Bituriges Cubi or Bituriges Visvici.

I don't know which "Classical Greek authors" this article is referring to (which is a nonsense in terminology since Classical Greece existed in the 5th and 4th centuries BC, way before the first mention of the Bituriges Cubi by Caesar). The Ancient Greek authors who mention the Bituriges (both tribes) are Strabo and Ptolemy, and none of them refer to Campine/Kampen in this context. A quick search on Google Books and Google Scholars gave no result. Alcaios (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 23

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Françoise Dior, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Basque Country (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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List of largest empires

Hello. I saw you in talk page of list of largest empries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires) and you were the only one who was somewhat actually supporting me. (The issue of the portuguese empire) So I found together with a friend 3 documents which are irrefutable proof. These are the ones: https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port/page/n6/mode/1up

https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port_0/mode/1up

https://archive.org/details/AlexandreDeGusmaoEOTratadoDe1750/page/n2/mode/1up

However somehow Sasan Hero and TompaDompa keep saying that these documents are not reliable. It's crazy just to think about it. I'm sure you know the portuguese empire really size, can you please help me get through this? ThanksRoqui15 (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 13

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Stéphane Bourgoin, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page La Nouvelle République (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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Activity on Wikipedia

Hi Alcaios! I have really appreciated your contributions about the New Right, Gallic history, folk tales etc, so I'm sad if you don't find it meaningful to be active on Wikipedia anymore. Wikipedia will always have a human factor, which overall is a good thing, but sometimes can be annoying. Some articles will by necessity be awful because of politics outside of Wikipedia itself. One of the things that make me stay around is that you can always just prioritize what articles to work on with that in mind, and therefore be able to add meaningful information where it is meaningful, without running into too many walls. Anyway, I really just wanted to express my appreciation, you have been active here longer than I have, so the advice is probably unnecessary. Take care. Ffranc (talk) 10:41, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your message Ffranc. I have taken some time to think about it, and I have decided to avoid political article to focus on history and culture. Best regards, Alcaios (talk) 12:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

yeah Krystoff Moholy (talk) 04:14, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Alcaios (talk) 12:58, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

The problem with "reportedl"

If you do a Google search on the word, the first thing that comes up is:adverb

according to what some say (used to express the speaker's belief that the information given is not necessarily true).

"he was in El Salvador, reportedly on his way to Texas"

Definitions from Oxford Language

Another way of saying it would be "he reported that" - which would be neutral. Thanks for fixing my typo. Doug Weller talk 12:38, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

You're right. My English is influenced by my native language, French; hence the use of words like interlocutor that are considered 'formal' in English but 'normal' in French. I thought 'reportedly' could be used in its etymological, neutral sense: "what has been reported [by either the protagonist of the event or some other people]". 15:15, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

No problem, I'm envious of your command of a 2nd language. Sorry about my fumble fingers on my iPad. Doug Weller talk 18:22, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Ways to improve Jérôme Fourquet

Hello, Alcaios,

Thank you for creating Jérôme Fourquet.

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

Thanks for this page. References need to be in English, or, translation supplied. Attempting to translate the third reference resulted in a loop wherein the data could not be access. Please consider further references, thanks.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Whiteguru}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Whiteguru (talk) 10:09, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I don't understand the issue. References need to be reliable, not necessarily in English. WP:NONENG: Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. Alcaios (talk) 17:40, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree, just FWIW. The comment "loop wherein the data could not be access" kind of gives me the feeling there something wrong here. I also do not understand the notability tag.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:58, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

BTW good to see you editing again. LOL. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:58, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Nice to see you too Andrew! I mean, I don't understand why copy–pasting a text in a translator would result in a "loop". Here is one translation of the third link[1]

Fourquet is the director of the public opinion department in the largest polling organization in France (IFOP), and he has been writing for well-known media outlets as a political analyst, including in France_Culture[2], France_Inter[3], Slate[4], Le_Point[5], or the Huffington_Post[6], etc. Alcaios (talk) 20:35, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Editor of the Week

		Editor of the Week
		Your ongoing efforts to improve the encyclopedia have not gone unnoticed: You have been selected as Editor of the Week in recognition of your objectivity and focus. Thank you for the great contributions! (courtesy of the Wikipedia Editor Retention Project)

User:Krakkos submitted the following nomination for Editor of the Week:

I nominate Alcaios to be Editor of the Week. An active editor on Wikipedia for five years, Alcaios has made more than 20,000 edits at a variety of topics. He has made significant contributions at articles related to the politics of Europe, European ethnography and Indo-European studies. Indo-European studies is a complicated and rapidly changing field marred by numerous controversies. With his profound knowledge and objective approach to the subject, Alcaios has ensured that articles on Indo-European studies, such as Proto-Indo-European mythology and Proto-Indo-European society, remain scholarly, up-to-date and neutral. He has made a herculean effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of tribes of ancient Gaul. Alcaios has also served as a critical voice of reason in heated discussions. Wikipedia is fortunate to have productive contributors such as Alcaios.

You can copy the following text to your user page to display a user box proclaiming your selection as Editor of the Week:

{{User:UBX/EoTWBox}}

Alcaios is a native of France

Alcaios

Editor of the Week for the week beginning October 11. 2020

Active for five years with more than 20,000 tpical edits. Significant contributions related to the politics of Europe, European ethnography and Indo-European studies: a complicated and fluctuating group of articles marred by numerous controversies. His knowledge and approach to the subject of Indo-European studies display scholarship and neutrality. He has improved coverage of tribes of ancient Gaul. A critical voice of reason and productive arbiter in heated discussions.

Recognized for

Notable work(s)

Proto-Indo-European mythology and Proto-Indo-European society

Submit a nomination

Thanks again for your efforts! ―Buster7 ☎ 01:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Well done.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:54, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Andrew. And thank you Krakkos for nominating me. It's been a pleasure to collaborate with both of you on WP. Best regards, Alcaios (talk) 08:27, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Congratulations on a very well deserved award. I hope there will be much fruitful collaboration also in the future. Krakkos (talk) 09:28, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Missing cites in Eggþér

The article cites "Orel 2003" and "Kroonen 2013" but no such sources are listed in the bibliography. Can you please add? Also, suggest installing a script to highlight such errors in the future. All you need to do is copy and paste importScript('User:Svick/HarvErrors.js'); // Backlink: [[User:Svick/HarvErrors.js]] to your common.js page. Thanks, Renata (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

PIE mythology

*Dyēus
God of bright heaven
The sky of the Central Asian steppe.
Other names	*Dyḗus ph₂tḗr ("Father God"), *Ph₂tḗr Ǵenh₁-tōr ("Father Procreator")
Venerated in	Proto-Indo-European mythology
Successor	Secure: Dyaus, Zeus, Jupiter, Dius Fidius, Zojz, Deipaturos, Dagda, Dievas, Týr, Divona, Dia, Diana, Dis Pater Insecure: Reo, Devana Indirect: Svarog and Perun
Gender	male
Ethnic group	Proto-Indo-Europeans
Personal information
Spouse	*Dʰéǵʰōm
Children	Divine twins, *H₂éwsōs

Hey I'm translating Dyeus to Polish now. You are the author of these articles and have more experience, so I have a few questions.

1. How should we treat the reconstructed names of the gods? We didn't make any decisions. West types it as *Dyeus or Dyeus and Mallory & Adams as *dyeus (actually *deiwós?). To make it more clear I propose to use capital letter + italics: *Dyeus when it comes to personal name.
2. When I was updating Stribog I found the source that mentions reverse order of *dyeus ph₂tḗr (*ph₂tḗr dyeus) and local variety of it: *ph₂tḗr bhagas – ever heard of it?
3. Maybe we should use infoboxes for reconstructed gods too?

PS I will be writing an article about Slavic *Div, now the article probably describes it incorrectly. Sławobóg (talk) 19:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Sławobóg,

1. It's just a matter of preference. Reconstructed terms are generally indicated with a '*' preceding the word – reconstructed proper names are written with either an upper case or a lower case, depending on the author. We just need to choose a spelling and stick to it for consistency. *Dyeus also has my preference. The term *deiwós means "celestial" (hence a "god") – it's a derivative of *dyeus, which means "daylight sky" (hence "sky-god" = "the diurnal sky conceived as a god").
2. There is no compulsory word order in Proto-Indo-European (like Latin and other languages, PIE used grammatical cases) – "dyeus ph₂tḗr" and "ph₂tḗr dyeus" are both grammatically correct and mean the same. "ph₂tḗr bhagas" cannot be a PIE formula (the vowel 'a' is very rare in reconstructed terms and some scholars argue that it didn't even exist at all in PIE). The Russian Stri-bogŭ ("Father-god") has indeed been compared with the Vedic Bhaga ("lord") in order to reconstruct an ancestral deity but the evidence for a PIE origin is not convincing: "bogŭ is usually considered a borrowing from Iranian. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that the etymon does not show the effects of Winter’s law" (cf. Derksen, Etymological Dictionary of the Slavic Lexicon, p.50).
3. Yes, I had never thought of adding infoboxes. Any proposition is welcomed! Alcaios (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

PS: spelling discrepancies in reconstructed terms are only a minor issue. You could compare it with the romanization of Cyrillic-based languages for instance: is "Viktor Yanukovych", "Victor Yanukovich" or "Viktor Ianucovich" the best transliteration of "Ві́ктор Януко́вич"? In reality, they are all correct. Alcaios (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

1. Ok, so we stay with *Dyēus, *Dʰéǵʰōm, *H₂éwsōs, *Perkʷunos, etc.?
2. Yeah, I explained Stribog's etymology in the article and why it is not descendant of *dyeus ph₂tḗr, but two Russian sources mention "ph₂tḗr bhagas" so I don't know if I should keep it in the article.
3. On top I added a quick infobox proposal Sławobóg (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The fact is that "ph₂tḗr bhagas" does not have any comparable expression in other IE languages. Even if we assume that Slavic 'bogŭ' and Sanskrit 'bhaga' descend from a common PIE root (and not a Slavic loanword from [Indo]-Iranian), there's no 'bhaga-pitṛ́' or 'pitṛ́-bhaga' in Sanskrit to go along with 'Stri-bogŭ' and thus be able to posit an original PIE formula "ph₂tḗr bhagas". This is just pure speculation in my opinion.

The infobox is a great idea. (1) perhaps you should make it clearer that Týr, Dievas, etc. stem from *deywós and not directly from *dyeus (that said *deywós itself derives from *dyeus so it's just a detail). (2) by 'indirect' you probably meant a 'thematic descendant' or a 'reflex' (the deity took some or most attributes of Dyeus even though it's not a linguistic descendant – it's harder to prove though, I don't think I would have put this in the infobox). Great work! Alcaios (talk) 23:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure about about division by etymology in the infobox, it may be too confusing for random people that don't know much about it. We can try thought.

I think I found error at the end of the article. It says that Finnish and Estonian word for "sky" is borrowing from Proto-Indo-Iranian, but many mythological borrowings in Estonian and Finnish come from Baltic languages. It is said by West and Wiktionary wikt:taevas and wikt:taivas. Sławobóg (talk) 14:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, it comes from Delamarre ("en finnois le mot taivas, qui est un emprunt très ancien à l'indo-iranien, signifie 'ciel'"). It's not impossible because there were indeed early linguistic contacts between Uralic and Indo-Iranian speakers along the southern Ural Mountains and the Eurasian Steppe (see for instance: Carpelan, Parpola & Koskikallio (2001) - Early Contacts between Uralic and Indo-European). Wiktionary doesn't provide any source and West only says that they come from an IE language. I'll try to find other sources to back that claim, but in doubt, we can just state in the article that the terms were borrowed from an IE language as West does. Alcaios (talk) 15:30, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Here is the biggest Estonian dictionary pointing at Baltic word. Sławobóg (talk) 16:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Hey, I have another question. I'm working on Devana. Polish scholar Zygmunt Krzak (expert on Neolithic) said in Southern and Western Europe Mother Goddess was named Ana, Anu, Anna, Annia, Anun, etc. Other author suggested, that all -na suffixes in goddesses' names come from that name (Devana, Diana, Morana), just like greek Anax. This name is supposed to come from PIE *ansu- "lord, ruler, god". Have you ever heard of it? Sławobóg (talk) 21:44, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Hey Sławobóg. I'm sorry, I missed your last message on my talk page. I've never looked into this etymology, I can't really help you unfortunately... Perhaps it is related to Slavic deva ("maiden, girl"). Alcaios (talk) 14:25, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

No problem. Devana is already updated and is linked in Dyeus article. Sławobóg (talk) 15:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

They're their Donald Trump

You are aware, from the Racial Views article, that there is no consensus that this is well-sourced NPOV article-worthy content. Under the circumstances, you should not have gone to the Donald Trump article to insert the same thing. Please self-revert and raise the issue on talk if you wish to pursue it. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

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Alliance for Peace and Freedom

Hi. I came here to explain why I reverted your edit on this page. I believe it was made in good faith. According to the line in the source you quoted the party contains or contained fascist officials. This does not necessarily mean the party itself follows or followed the ideology of neo-fascism. Please see WP:SYNTHESIS. Helper201 (talk) 23:28, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

List of covid deaths

List of deaths due to COVID-19 has been proposed again for deletion. Your opinion on the matter could be useful --Pesqara (talk) 15:29, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Why remove google books urls?

I noticed this and was wondering what I was missing.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi, it's just a question of preference. You can click on the isbn, then 'find Google Books' to open the book on Google Books. Alcaios (talk) 14:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I think a lot of people including me very much like having the one click option, and it seems very commonly accepted. I would prefer to keep these.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:37, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I understand. I have reverted the change – regards Alcaios (talk) 14:39, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Appreciated. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:56, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Germanic calendar

I see that you are working on the Germanic calendar. This is a more complete presentation of the old Scandinavian calendars from the Swedish WP.

Modern	Swedish	Norwegian	Danish	Icelandic
January	torsmånad	torre	glugmåned	þorri
February	göjemånad	gjø	blidemåned	góa
March	vårmånad/ugglemånad	gressmåned/vårmåned	tordmåned	einmánuður
April	gräsmånad	?	fåremåned	harpa
May	blomstermånad/lövmånad	?	majmåned	skerpla
June	sommarmånad/midsommarmånad	sommermåned	skærsommer	sólmánuður
July	hömånad/ormmånad	høymåned	ormemåned	heyannir
August	skördemånad/rötmånad	kornskurdemåned	høstmåned	tvímánuður
September	höstmånad	haustmåned	fiskemåned	haustmánuður
October	slaktmånad	slaktemåned	sædemåned	gormánuður
November	vintermånad	vintermåned	slagtemåned	ýlir
December	julmånad/kristmånad	julemåned	kristmåned	mörsugur

I know that information on WP has no value unless it is supported by references, but the Swedish names can be verified on the Institute for Language and Folklore and in the Swedish Academy's online dictionary.--Berig (talk) 15:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi Berig, thank you for the table. I'm indeed working on the Early Germanic calendars (and other articles in parallel). It'll probably be useful to my research. Alcaios (talk) 14:08, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I am always happy to see good editors adding content here. If I can help you in any way (like moving pages over redirects), just leave me a message.--Berig (talk) 14:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

P.-S. Ça me fait plaisir de voir un Français s'intéresser à la mythologie nordique. Quand je vivais en France, j'ai éprouvé que la connaissance de cette mythologie n'était pas très répandue.--Berig (talk) 15:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Berig: – Je m'intéresse aux mythologies indo-européennes en général, et il m'arrive parfois de concentrer mon attention sur les mythologies germaniques en particulier, qui sont passionnantes par leur aspect énigmatique et leur univers poétique très particulier. J'aimerais pouvoir un jour faire de l'article Germanic peoples un 'article de qualité" ('featured article'); j'avais rédigé il y a quelques mois la section sur la langue proto-germanique, mais beaucoup d'efforts restent à mener ! Alcaios (talk) 17:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Ça sera une tâche énorme! Malheureusement, les sujets germaniques attraient pas mal d'éditeurs problématiques. En tant que linguiste avec une année d'études en archéologie, j'ai commencé à écrire sur des sujets indo-européens et germaniques ici en 2002. J'ai perdu l'espoir, malheureusement, mais des éditeurs sérieux comme toi me donnent toujours un peu d'espoir pour ces articles.--Berig (talk) 17:25, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Elite-recruitment

Dutch, in my case. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:01, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Noms germaniques

Puisque tu fais de la recherche sur des noms personnels germaniques, ce lien pourra te servir. Bien que les étymologies soient en suédois, il y a une bonne bibliographie avec des sources sur les étymologies des noms proto-nordiques et proto-germaniques.--Berig (talk) 16:12, 23 December 2020 (UTC).

Merci pour le lien Berig – c'est une excellente source avec toutes les références nécessaires. J'avais listé il y a quelques mois tous les noms germaniques qui apparaissent dans le dictionnaire du Vieux Norrois de Jan de Vries, mais la difficulté principale est de différencier les noms d'origine proto-germanique des Wanderworten qui ont circulé entre les peuples germaniques pendant les Grandes Migrations et le Haut Moyen-Âge. Il faudra que je me replonge dans ce sujet pour pouvoir fournir une liste fiable de noms propres exclusivement proto-germaniques. Alcaios (talk) 22:00, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Proud Boys Page - Neutral and disinterested editors Needed

Hello! I noticed that you've spent time editing the Hells Angels page and wanted to bring some of the neutral editing quality over to the Proud Boys discussion. Recently, theyve deleted the URL of the organization in order to censor the website and used the "they are terrorists and we don't link to terrorist websites" argument to rationalize it.

If you know of any other neutral editors who might be interested in reviewing the arguments for using censorship, it could be a big help - the article needs help and a moderator recently disclosed that they had unreasonable views about the organization which precluded fair arbitration on future edits.

Thanks!TuffStuffMcG (talk) 20:43, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

It's impossible to maintain neutrality on controversial articles about politics, especially in the current context. Alcaios (talk) 00:33, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

No worries, and I don't disagree. Thanks for taking a look.TuffStuffMcG (talk) 13:16, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Gaul Suggestion

I saw you recently edited a number of articles related to Gaulish history and thought you may be interested in being aware of or otherwise joining in the new(ish) efforts of this WikiProject, WikiProject Gaul. All are welcome. --- FULBERT (talk) 21:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks you for your message FULBERT, I would be interested in participating in this project. Although it seems like it hasn't gathered many participants yet, I think it's important to coordinate the tasks on this subject, especially since the information on Gauls are disseminated across a bunch of publications and require a good knowledge of English, French, and sometimes German. Alcaios (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Alcaios, Fantastic! This project started off years ago (with no tangible effort that I could find) on Celtic history and culture, though there already is a similar WikiProject on that (Celts), so it seemed a more specific niche that had greater need of focused attention would be better. Glad you are interested. FULBERT (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

John T. Koch's paper on Celtic-Germanic and Nothern Europe contacts (2020)

Seeing that you took the effort to improve the articles on Celtic and Germanic tribes, I believe you would be interested in this article by Celticist John T. Koch: https://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Centre/2020/Celto-Germanic2020.pdf

179.218.91.213 (talk) 15:39, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the link and for improving many articles on folk tales. Your contributions are always of high quality and based on reliable sources. I'll look into this paper as soon as possible! Alcaios (talk) 16:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the article. I enjoy it!--Berig (talk) 06:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Armoricani

Based on this it doesn't appear that Armoricani qualifies as a G 11. It does have problems but I don't think it was made up.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:50, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: the name 'Armoricani' isn't mentioned in your source because the inhabitants of Armorica were not called 'Armoricani' (sic) but Armorici or Aremorici. And it's not even a tribe but merely a geographical designation like 'Northern Europeans'. I provided evidence on the talk page of the article. Alcaios (talk) 19:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Alcaios, OK S Philbrick(Talk) 20:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Done!--Berig (talk) 20:20, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: @Berig: Actually, I found that the Latin adjective Armoricani was an administrative term designating in particular a sector of the Roman defence line in Gaul in Late Antiquity, the Tractus Armoricani ('Armorican Tract'). Nothing to do with a tribe or a people, the article's creator misinterpreted a Late Latin adjective as the name of the ancient inhabitants of Armorica. The distinction is made clear in Bachrach (1971): Again, on historical grounds it is clear that the inhabitants of the Tractus Armoricani, the Armorici, lived next to the Franks. Alcaios (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

We have this article: Armorica. Maybe, I should undelete the article and make it into a redirect.--Berig (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Berig:: There is an article about the Armoricani military division in French Tractus Armoricanus et Nervicanus and in German Dux tractus Armoricani et Nervicani, but not in English as for now. I may plan to create it. I guess you can redirect Armoricani to Armorica for the moment; I'll change the redirection to Tractus Armoricani et Nervicani when the article is created. Alcaios (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Done!--Berig (talk) 22:38, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Berig:: I have a quick question if you don't mind answering. How do you move an article to a name that is already used as a redirect (i.e. inverting the redirection)? This happened to me several times but I don't know how to solve the issue besides asking for the old redirect to be deleted. Thanks. Alcaios (talk) 13:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Being able to do that was one of the main reasons I accepted being an admin. You can ask me, and I can do it for you.--Berig (talk) 13:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

It is because those redirects have a history. Stopping non-admins from moving over a page with a history is a way of stopping vandals from deleting pages by moving other pages over them.--Berig (talk) 13:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Berig:: Thank you very much. If you don't mind, could you move Jean Baptiste Bourguignon d'Anville to Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon d'Anville (I'm aware that some reputable English sources write it "Jean Baptiste" (including the British Museum), but this first name is always hyphenated in French, and both the Encyclopedia Britannica and the BNF follow the official written form), as well as Riedones to Redones (Riedones is a known variant but the Gaulish name is rendered as Rēdones by linguists and the entry for the tribe in the New Pauly is 'Redones'). Alcaios (talk) 14:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Done!--Berig (talk) 14:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

The "Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon d'Anville" redirect had an edit history from 2005 that seemed deletable, but I moved it to Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon d'Anville (old), just in case and made it into a redirect. In the extremely unlikely case that anyone ever wants to refer to its edit history, it is accessible.--Berig (talk) 14:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Alcaios: Enfant, j'ai beaucoup aimé les BDs des irreductibles Gaulois célèbres, et à l'université j'ai eu ce qui correspond à un diplôme magistère écrivant sur la toponymie française. J'apprécie beaucoup ton travail ici et ça me fait beaucoup plaisir faciliter pour toi (je ne crois pas que mon français reste très idiomatique mais je fais de mon mieux :-)).--Berig (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Berig:, merci pour ce message, ton français est très correct ! J'ai remarqué que les articles sur les Gaulois (et les Celtes en général) manquaient d'attention sur le Wikipedia anglophone contrairement à d'autres groupes comparables comme les Ancient Germains ou les Illyriens. J'ai donc décidé d'améliorer ces articles ; cela demande du temps et beaucoup d'efforts, mais j'apprends beaucoup de choses, c'est le principal :) Alcaios (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Je suis d'accord. J'ai commencé à écrire ici pour combler des lacunes (il y en avait beaucoup en 2003), et surtout ça donne le plaisir de découvrir et d'apprendre.--Berig (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

More material on Indo-European Koryos and the Germanic reflexes

Have you seen this book? The One-eyed God: Odin and the (Indo-) Germanic Männerbünde (Journal of Indo-European Studies Monograph No. 36), by Kris Kershaw (2000). Chapter 8 is about the dog, the Koryos and Odin. 179.218.91.213 (talk) 02:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes I used Kershaw's work to write the article, but I didn't have the time to read it entirely back then. All of Part II is about the koryos (from p. 176 to p. 332). Perhaps I'll find the time to add the remaining information later (I'm working on the Gallic tribes for the moment). Alcaios (talk) 08:35, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

On Celtic duality Albiorix/Dumnorix

I have found some information regarding this topic: {Lacroix, Jacques. "Le celtique *dubno- et *albio- dans un ensemble de noms de peuples, de dieux, de personnes et de lieux". In: Etudes Celtiques, vol. 42, 2016. pp. 65-93. [DOI: https://doi.org/10.3406/ecelt.2016.2470] ; www.persee.fr/doc/ecelt_0373-1928_2016_num_42_1_2470}

Apparently, the name Dumnorix left traces as substrate of Iberian languages: Dunohorix and Dunnohorigis.

See:

• Iglesias, Hector. "À propos de quelques graphies apparaissant dans plusieurs anthroponymes et toponymes « basco-aquitaniques » de l’Antiquité et du Moyen-Âge". In: Nouvelle revue d'onomastique, n°54, 2012. p. 181 (footnote nr. 15) [DOI: https://doi.org/10.3406/onoma.2012.1754]; www.persee.fr/doc/onoma_0755-7752_2012_num_54_1_1754

• Vidal Joan C. "El aquitano como lengua céltica (o vascones en Aquitania)". In: Nouvelle revue d'onomastique, n°54, 2012. p. 160. [DOI: https://doi.org/10.3406/onoma.2012.1753];

www.persee.fr/doc/onoma_0755-7752_2012_num_54_1_1753

• Bolelli, Tristan; Campanile, Enrico. "Sur la préhistoire des noms gaulois en -rīx". In: Etudes Celtiques, vol. 13, fascicule 1, 1972. Actes du quatrième congrès international d'études celtiques (Rennes 18-25 juillet 1971) Volume I. Linguistique celtique. pp. 123-140. [DOI: https://doi.org/10.3406/ecelt.1972.1498]; www.persee.fr/doc/ecelt_0373-1928_1972_num_13_1_1498

189.122.214.192 (talk) 15:38, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you from the links! Note that it is not a duality but rather a triad, with Biturix being the third element :) Alcaios (talk) 15:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Another article of this "duality" (triad), in Russian: https://www.ulster.ac.uk/celtoslavica/series/02/11 189.122.57.144 (talk) 01:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Question pour un expert

Au fac, dans les années 90, j'ai fait une étude sur la toponymie française, et ce qui m'a sauté aux yeux c'était que dans la moitié l'ouest du Languedoc, ou Gaule narbonnaise, il y avait un très grand pourcentage de toponymes d'origine pré-indo-européenne. C'est bien connu que l'Aquitaine est restée pré-indo-européenne jusqu'à l'époque historique, et qu'au sud, il y avait les Ibères. J'ai donc proposé que les Volques Tectosages, n'étaient qu'une élite dominant une population pré-indo-européenne. C'est seulement la théorie d'un étudiant, mais je suis curieux s'il peut y avoir des traces d'une telle population.--Berig (talk) 09:27, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

@Berig: C'est en effet possible puisque les noms des villes des Volcae Tectosages (qui portent un nom celtique, 'ceux qui cherchent une demeure, des possessions') ne sont pas d'origine celtique eux-mêmes (Carcaso, Illiberis, Baitera et Tolosa ont été comparés à des toponymes ibériens et proto-basques). Les villes des Volcae Arecomici (nom probablement celtique avec préfixe are- 'devant, by the', mais dont le sens reste obscur), quant à elles, portent généralement des noms celtiques, mais Nemausus est occupée dès l'Âge du Bronze, et il est probable que les Arecomici aient renommé Nemausus une agglomération pré-celtique locale, dont le nom a depuis été perdu ! ;-) Alcaios (talk) 15:34, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Donc probablement des populations (para-)proto-basques et (para-)ibériennes :-)--Berig (talk) 16:57, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Terminologie

Nous avons eu des discussions sur les noms des articles et WP:NAME. Ça me ferait beacoup plaisir si tu pouvais contribuer à cette discussion.--Berig (talk) 05:56, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Merci!--Berig (talk) 18:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Segodunum

Peut-être Segodunum pourrait t'intéresser.--Berig (talk) 18:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@Berig:, thank you for the help ;-) Alcaios (talk) 10:10, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

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European Prehistory and Celtic Archeology

This paper reviews the competing hypotheses for the diffusal of Celtic populations and languages across Europe. Since you are expanding the Celtic articles, it could merit a look.

https://www.academia.edu/44972718/Celtic_origins_Archaeologically_speaking

189.122.57.144 (talk) 18:27, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I'm currently reading Koch's paper on Celtic-Germanic contacts (2020). It is a great review of the question with an extensive bibliography. Alcaios (talk) 19:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Another Indo-European myth? Dana's child, the giant and the cattle

It seems scholar Patrice Lajoye tried to reconstruct another IE myth, this time about Dana, goddess of waters, her son, a giant and some stolen cattle. I don't have access to the whole article, but this link contains the abstract:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Trois-gorges-et-un-oiseau-%3A-Dana-et-le-dieu-au-nom-Lajoye/0c08a13d75ccbbb0084048645e799df3e5790b0c

189.122.57.144 (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the link ;-) Note however that Lajoye later renounced to the conclusion of this article: "Je t'avouerais pourtant que si je devais réécrire cet article maintenant, il serait totalement différent. Le dossier me semble toujours correct, mais mes conclusions de l'époque me semblent maintenant bien hasardeuses... Mais bon, c'était mon premier article de mythologie! Il a bien le droit de contenir des erreurs de jeunesses." Alcaios (talk) 11:38, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Divine Twins (Jumeaux Divins) in Celtic tradition: Lugh and Cernunnos?

This book claims that Celtic deites Lugh and Cernunnos somehow represent the Dioscurism concept in Celtic tradition: Cernunnos associated with the "savage" and wild world of the forests and the dark half of the year, whereas Lugh is his light opposite, connected with rationality and the light half of the year. It also posits similarities between Cernunnos/Dionysus and Lugh/Apollo.

LES JUMEAUX DIVINS DANS LE FESTIAIRE CELTIQUE (2017).

The article about Lugh in the French Wikipedia also comments on this.189.122.57.144 (talk) 01:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

List of figures in Germanic legend

Hi Alcaios! I know you're good at etymology and interested in Germanic stuff I'd like to formally invite you to edit the list of figures in Germanic heroic epic that Berig and I are putting together at User:Ermenrich/sandbox. We'd very much appreciate any help or suggestions you might have.--Ermenrich (talk) 23:31, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Ermenrich, I would be glad to join your project! Are you making a list of heroic figures that can be reconstructed in Proto-Germanic or a list of heroic figures that are present in the myths of Germanic-speaking peoples? Alcaios (talk) 16:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Alcaios, we're making a list of figures that are attested in Germanic heroic literature (almost none of whom will have existed in Proto-Germanic times). We're providing an etymology for each name though, which usually involves Proto-Germanic.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:31, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I am glad that you want to join the project Alcaios.--Berig (talk) 16:35, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I am as well!--Ermenrich (talk) 15:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Another source on Asteronhus "Easter(n)-house":

Hello. I saw your recent additions to Eostre, specially about asteronhus. I found another article that delves into its etymology.

Hessmann, Pierre. " ASTERONHUS IM FRECKENHORSTER HEBEREGISTER", Amsterdamer Beiträge zur älteren Germanistik 52, 1 (1999): 97-104, doi: https://doi.org/10.1163/18756719-052-01-90000008

189.122.57.144 (talk) 01:27, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I hope you're doing well! I didn't read that paper yet, thank you for the link Alcaios (talk) 14:47, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

RfC

Dear Alcaios, I have started an RfC on the article Goths that may be of interest to you, see Talk:Goths#RfC.--Berig (talk) 17:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Niskai of Celtic mythology - Nixies of Germanic paganism?

While perusing a book on ancient pagan religions of Europe, I've come across a Celtic named Niskai, supposedly a spirit of wells/waters. Could they have some connection to the Nixies (water-fairies) of Germanic folklore?

Jones, Prudence; Pennick, Nigel (1995). A History of Pagan Europe. Routledge. p. 86. ISBN 978-1-136-14172-0.

189.122.57.144 (talk) 01:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for the late reply my friend! I don't think they are related. Nixie comes from PGmc *nikwiz ~ *nikwaza-. It would be difficult to explain the difference between the root nisk- found in Niskai and the root nikw- found in the Germanic names. Alcaios (talk) 18:19, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Can you have a look at this etymology?

Hi. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#Etymology . Clearly the "Aryan" explanation should be replaced with a proper Indo-European one. I started to try to do it myself, but I figured you might be in the best position to make a properly sourced stable version?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

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100 years plus

From what I understand, the EU raises taxes from wealthy member states and distributes monies to poorer member states. 1st, how is this model going to stand up to the test of time when most member states are poor and can't afford the EU tax collection system, And secondly it seems the EU model is communistic in its foundations?

Could someone explain to me both points. Spd2078 (talk) 06:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The idea is to make the poorest countries richer through west-to-east investments and reduce economic inequalities between members states in the long term. Alcaios (talk) 12:03, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Vandals, Saxo and East Germanic

Thanks for checking this, but apart from sourcing you should also consider the word "attested". This wording implies that Saxo wrote in East Germanic. Whatever sources you find, I think they are only (at best) going to argue that Saxo had a source which reflected East Germanic somehow? The attestation being referred to in the current wording clearly refers to Saxo himself? From previous work on this article my understanding is that we have no texts which are uncontroversially identifiable as being written in Vandalic. The only East Germanic language we can be sure we have texts of is called Gothic. The idea that Vandals and Gepids spoke the same language comes from Procopius, who will have been referring to the peoples of his time, spread around the Roman empire, and now apparently associated with a language they were all using, and which he treats as one of the main languages of the military. It does not come from direct evidence. There is one short passage of a song from Carthage, but scholars have pointed out that it could be what we call Gothic.

(For fun, going further back the main known fact about this language is that it was chosen for making a Bible in a multilinguistic area where the Goths were dominant. Because Jordanes can not be trusted for this, historians do not know where Gothic came from, but as a Germanic language we presume it came from the north. One option still open for historians: supposedly Germanic peoples who were in the area earlier include the Bastarnae. Another option: Germanic peoples who were in areas closer to where we think other such languages were spoken include the Vandals, who some classical writers treated as a category of several peoples. The people obsessed with connecting Goths to Swedes either have to make a big distinction between the origins of the Vandals and Goths, or else say they all came from Sweden, but the attempts to use archaeological cultures to match such stories are in conflict with the second option. Because the Vandals, who they equate to the Przeworsk culture, were not coastal or influenced as much by coastal trade. If Vandals and Goths spoke the same language, it would be simpler to be guided by the early classical writers and think of the Gothic language as Vandalic. But as Heather and Halsall agree, no-one has really proven that the Biblical language, presumably the same one Procopius referred to as being a standard language spoken by many Romanized soldiers, was not picked up from another powerful group such as the Bastarnae. Languages, or perhaps new standard dialects, could clearly spread rapidly, as presumably happened later with Slavic.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: You're right, that's why I have removed 'East Germanic' from the article. I just wanted to clarify why I think that Orel wrote that. Thank you for checking this article (and others) for accuracy! Alcaios (talk) 09:09, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

You are very welcome and your work is also highly appreciated!--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

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Germani names again

Hi. Tried making a start on updating Usipetes and Tencteri, with name/language sections as seem to be the standard now. I notice that the Reallexikon cites Delamarre, so you may well have more to say. Not sure what to do with Sicambri either. RLA has a discussion in a Gambrivi article but it seems quite "old school", and I wonder whether that is really balanced and up-to-date.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Origin of the Albanians

Hello, I remember you did some excellent work in that article a while back. Things have changed a lot since then. In particular, some users are pushing very strongly to add a new map in the article, that I find controversial. I've opened a discussion thread here [7]. I would highly value your opinion, as someone who is neutral in these disputes. Regards, Khirurg (talk) 02:40, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

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IE loans in early Uralic

Happy new year Alcaios! I was wondering if you knew of a list of all the proposed IE loanwords in Proto-Uralic (and perhaps the other way around) - I had expected to find such a thing easily as its important for the proposed IE homeland, but I've mostly located later loans on google (particularly from Indo-Iranian).--Ermenrich (talk) 14:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Happy new year Ermenrich. Ante Aikio is writing a new etymological dictionary of the Uralic languages, but there is no discussion about early loanwords as far as I know, at least in the draft that has been published online. Uralic studies is a recent field; reliable reconstructions are still underway, hence the difficulty in establishing a chronology of loanwords. Discussion about early contacts is spread across various publications, most notably Carpelan, Parpola & Koskikallio (2001) - Early Contacts between Uralic and Indo-European; but probably also in reference works such as Sinor (1997) - The Uralic Languages: Description, History and Foreign Influences; Abondolo (1998) - The Uralic Languages; Marcantonio (2002) - The Uralic Language Family: Facts, Myths, and Statistics; Grünthal & Kallio (2012) - A Linguistic Map of Prehistoric Northern Europe; etc. I hope this helped! Alcaios (talk) 20:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

The Uralic languages are more and more considered to be a late arrival in Europe, and possibly with the Seima-Turbino phenomenon. The Indo-Iranian (Scythian) influence may very well be the earliest one from the IE languages.--Berig (talk) 20:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Recent discussions revolve around early contacts between PIE and PU in Southwestern Siberia, but the reconstruction of Proto-Uralic is still underway so we cannot do reliable comparisons. A genetic relationship has been proposed by some scholars (Indo-Uralic languages), but the so-called cognates are probably early loanwords: Unfortunately, only a few Indo-Uralic studies (e.g. Kortlandt 2002) rely on up-to-date Proto-Uralic reconstructions, whereas many more stubbornly refuse to acknowledge any progress in Uralic linguistics (and often also in Indo-European linguistics for that matter). It goes without saying that the latter studies must be considered as obsolete as the reconstructions they offer; and it is no excuse that the only Uralic etymological dictionaries in existence (Collinder [1955] 1977; Rédei 1988 [1986]–1991) are already out-of-date. The need to use only the most up-to-date reconstructions becomes obvious when one considers that in any attempt to establish a remote Indo-Uralic language family, the input on the Uralic side will represent one-half the data. [...] These words cannot be genetic cognates because their distribution is rather limited on both the Indo-European and Uralic sides, not to mention that the Indo-European sources are post-Proto-Indo-European derivatives. Even so, both the Indo-European source language and the Uralic target language were phonologically very close to their proto-language levels when the borrowing took place. The phonological differences between the Indo-European and Uralic reconstructions can be explained by loan substitutions where each Indo-European phoneme was replaced by the phonetically closest Uralic phoneme (Kallio 2001: 223). If we compare these loan substitutions with, for instance, Collinder’s suggested Indo-Uralic sound laws (1965: 128–130), we may easily see that they are almost exactly the same, not to mention that they are never environmentally conditioned. Thus, they must all be considered loan substitutions rather than sound laws. In conclusion, Proto-Indo-European was evidently in areal contact with Proto-Uralic. They may also have been genetically related to one another, but here further research will be necessary; taking any other position would be a fatal error. In any case, the burden of proof will always remain on those making the positive claim, because one can never conclusively disprove genetic relationships, and even in the most unlikely cases (e.g. Proto-Indo-European and Australian), one can at most say that the languages in question are unrelatable by linguistic methodology. Petri Kallio "Beyond Proto-Indo-European" in Klein, Joseph & Fritz (2018) - Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics vol. 3. Alcaios (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Wow, fascinating! Thanks!--Ermenrich (talk) 20:26, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: I have come to Alcaios' talk page for a different reason, but your thread here reminds of this paper (to appear in Diachronica) which I have recently discovered. There is no extensive wordlist, but the question of Uralic-IE contact is addressed in several placaes of the paper. It has a long author list, but it look very Nichols-ish to me (cf. the tables and statistics the Supplement). –Austronesier (talk) 18:35, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Austronesier! Looks like an interesting read.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:19, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Mythology in the ANE article

Hi Alcaios! I have removed parts of your "Comparative mythology" section in Ancient North Eurasian for what I perceive as a SYNTH-issue. The distribution of ANE ancestry in Eurasia and the Americas was only known to Anthony and Brown, but not to the other authors that you have cited. Since we can only speculate whether Loma, Sergent and Speidel would have drawn the same conclusions from later archaeogenetic research in a manner comparable to what Anthony and Brown do, their inclusion in a page that is about the ANE ancestral component is a synthesis of related, but not directly/explicitly connected research.

Nevertheless, it would be good to have this material somewhere in WP. Are you aware of an article that broadly discusses prehistoric cultural connections between the Old and New Worlds so we can integrate it there? –Austronesier (talk) 18:28, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier:, I think it could fit in Comparative mythology, but it is a more general page.189.122.57.144 (talk) 22:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier:, yes, there's a WP:SYNTH issue since the ANE lineage wasn't known to these authors. I had inserted the following note (which is now obsolete) to the article: NOTE: some of the following studies predate the discovery of ANE archaeogenetic lineages, but all explicitly refer to a possible ancient North Eurasian origin of those myths. See Anthony & Brown (2019) for the legitimacy of connecting reconstructed myths with ANE. Alcaios (talk) 21:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Craige B. Champion

The article Craige B. Champion has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Not enough in-depth coverage to meet WP:GNG, can't see where he meets WP:NSCHOLAR, he has one work which gets decent citations, but it is co-authored.

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Craige B. Champion moved to draftspace

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Germanic paganism rewrite

Hi Alcaios! Berig and I are working on a new draft for Germanic paganism in my sandbox. I was wondering if you might be interested in participating. Best, Ermenrich.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Autopatrolled

Hi Alcaios, I just wanted to let you know that I have added the autopatrolled user right to your account. This means that pages you create will automatically be marked as 'reviewed', and no longer appear in the new pages feed. Autopatrolled is assigned to prolific creators of articles, where those articles do not require further review, and may have been requested on your behalf by someone else. It doesn't affect how you edit; it is used only to manage the workload of new page patrollers.

Since the articles you create will no longer be systematically reviewed by other editors, it is important that you maintain the high standard you have achieved so far in all your future creations. Please also try to remember to add relevant WikiProject templates, stub tags, categories, and incoming links to them, if you aren't already in the habit; user scripts such as Rater and StubSorter can help with this. As you have already shown that you have a strong grasp of Wikipedia's core content policies, you might also consider volunteering to become a new page patroller yourself, helping to uphold the project's standards and encourage other good faith article writers.

Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! – Joe (talk) 12:45, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Toutatis

Hi, Alcaios. Given your knowledge of Celtic linguistics and theonyms, I wonder if you could help out here. An editor has rewritten the article to make Toutatis solely a 'Ligurian god', based entirely on their own misreading of Lucan. The discussion can be found here. The same editor also seems to have done similar to the Ligures article.

Unfortunately, dealing with blatant rule-breaking is difficult on such articles, as they do not get much traffic. I understand should you not want to get involved with a disruptive editor, but any small help would be appreciated. Thanks. ~Asarlaí 19:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

@Asarlaí:, if you read French, there is an interesting chapter on the Celto-Ligurian debate in Boissinot, Philippe (2019). "Les Ligyens et les Salyens d'Hécatée à Strabon". In Bats, Michel (ed.). D’un monde à l’autre : Contacts et acculturation en Gaule méditerranéenne. Centre Jean Bérard. pp. 189–210. ISBN 978-2-38050-003-5.. Patrizia de Bernardo Stempel has also written extensively about their language. They come to the conclusion that 'Ligurian' was initially used as a mere geographical description by Greek writers, and that the distinction between Celtic and Ligurian became clearer to them when they were more familiar with the region (just like 'Scythian' initally designated the peoples dwelling north of Greece, including Iranian and non-Iranian speakers). The Ligurian language is close to Celtic. It is certainly an Indo-European language, possibly 'Para-Celtic' (a sister language of Celtic), or else a Celtic dialect. Alcaios (talk) 09:57, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

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Phrygian

Happy new year Alcaios!

Have you had a look at the page Phrygian language. My impression is someone is very taken by the idea that it's closely related to Greek and has added all sorts of unsourced parallels (e.g. the false equivalence of θεός to Phrygian devos).--Ermenrich (talk) 21:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy new year to everyone!

Ermenrich, Greek θεός being a cognate of Old Phrygian devos was actually sourced; a single reference is given for all of the examples that are listed under § Substantives. It was initially proposed that it originated from PIE *deiu̯ōs (cf. Skt. devá and Lat. deus), but this was later ruled out. Here is what Obrador-Cursach (2018, pp. 170–171) wrote about the aforementioned noun:

δεως (noun) 'god'

OPhr.
sg.nom. deṿọs P-03
sg.acc. / sg.gen.? devun B-07

NPhr.
pl.dat. δδεω 20.2 (128)
pl.dat. δεος 17.3 (7), 18.3 (6)
pl.dat. δεως 3.1 (97), 10.1 (112), 17.6 (119), 19.1 (96), 20.1 (63), 20.3 (62), 24.1 (40), 27.1 (92), 32.1 (93); [δ]ε̣[ως] 17.2 (3); [δ]ε[ω]ς 21.1 (42),
pl.dat. διος 30.1 (39)
pl.dat. διως 12.1 (121), 18.1 (4), 18.2 (5), 22.2 (118); δ̣[ιως] 35.1 (25)?
pl.dat. δυως 10.2 (113)

All the NPhr. forms appear in the basic formula, with many variants studied by Lubotsky (1998): με δεως κε ζεμελως κε 'in the sight of gods and men'. According to Lubotsky (1998, 419), this noun is the Phr. outcome of PIE *d^hh₁-s-ó- 'god' (NIL 102), a cognate of Gr. θεός 'id.'. The previous proposal (Brixhe 1983, 115 and 117), a noun derived from PIE *deiu̯ōs (NIL 71-72, attested in Skt. devá 'god' and Lat. deus 'id.'), was ruled out because the simplification *ei̯- > /eː/ is difficult to defend in Phrygian and the presence of a voiced stop is unexpected in the Phr. word. The most common form is the NPhr. pl.dat. δεως (< *-ōis), with some trivial variants: διως and διος, which present the hesitation /e/ ~ /i/ (see § 4.1.1), δυως, where upsilon is used instead of ipsilon because of the influence of the Gr. itacism, and δεος and διος, which shows the loss of vowel length differentiation between /oː/ and /o/. The form deṿọs is clearly the sg.nom. because of its context. Indeed, in the text where it is read, engraved on a stone block, it agrees with the adj. meḳạs where vasous iman mekas ḳanutieivạịs deṿọs ke meḳạs. Ligorio and Lubotsky (2013, 186) explains its non-etymologic -v- as an epenthesis parallel to tovo. OPhr. devun, which also shows this epenthesis, is less clear, since its ending can be considered a pl.gen. *-ōn (according to Brixhe 2004a, 83) or a sg.acc. *-on and its context remains obscure: yos tiv[.] [.^?]n ke devụṇ kumnotan ordoineten.
Brixhe 1983, 115 § 4.1; CIPPh I, 234; Diakonoff & Neroznak 1985, 101-102; Brixhe 1990, 77; Orel 1997a, 293 and 422; Lubotsky 1998, 419; Brixhe 2004a, 83-84; Lubotsky 2013, 186.

He also wrote the following on page 63:

The semivowel /w/, represented by ‹v› (in a few examples ‹u›) and υ, ου and ο, follows PIE *u̯: *su̯e- + *h₂eu̯-to- > venavtun (W-01b, sg.acc.) /οεαυται (16.1 – 116, sg.dat.), *u̯id- > (o)ουιτετου (4.1), *b^heu̯d^h-os- > bevdos (B-01), etc. In Phrygian, this semivowel persists in all periods and positions with the sole exception of *u̯o > o: *diu̯-os > τιος (53.1 – 76, 54.1 – 108, etc.). In two OPhr. words, -v- appears as a hiatus-filling glide (Ligorio & Lubotsky 2013, 186): *toso > *toho > tovo (P-01) and *d^hh₁sos > *dehos > devos (P-03, also in devun B-07, not in NPhr. δεως, pl.dat.).

Both of the aforementioned excerpts can also be found with some additional minor details in The Phrygian Language (2022) [2020] by Obrador-Cursach; pages 208–209 (lemma deṿọs) and 68, respectively. Furthermore, here is what the same scholar wrote on pages 235–236 of his article On the place of Phrygian among the Indo-European languages (2019):

At some point in Phrygian pre-history, the inherited voiced stops became devoiced: NPhr. Τιαν (acc. sg.), Τιος (gen. sg.), Τι(ε) (dat.sg.) 'Zeus' < PIE *diēm, *diu̯os, *diu̯ei̯; OPhr. torv- (B-05) 'wood' < PIE *doru̯-/*dr̥u̯- (see Ligorio and Lubotsky 2018: 1823). Phrygian devoicing is the strongest difference with regard to Greek; according to Kortlandt (2016: 249–250) it happened together with Thracian and Armenian. ... After the devoicing and before the first Phrygian texts, a deaspiration affected Phrygian inherited aspirated stops: NPhr. δεως 'god' < PIE *d^hh₁so-; NPhr. γεγρειμεναν 'written' < PIE *g^hreiH-; NPhr. βρατερε 'brother' < PIE *b^hreh₂ter- (Ligorio and Lubotsky 2018: 1823).

The IE noun *d^heh₁s-/*d^hh₁s- is found elsewhere in the Indo-European languages (see NIL 102), but only in Greek, Phrygian and Armenian does it take the new meaning 'god'. Note, however, that, unlike Armenian dik' 'god' (plurale tantum), Phrygian devos (B-07; NPhr. dat. pl δεως) and Greek θεός (Mycenaean te-o) go back to the thematised form *d^hh₁s-ó-. ... A parallel formation, *d^hh₁-s-ó-, is found in some Anatolian languages: Hieroglyphic Luwian tasa- 'stele', Lycian θθe- 'sanctuary' and Lydian tasẽν 'statue (?)' (see Payne and Sasseville 2016: 76).

Last, even though i have contributed much to the article, most of the expansion was done by Hans van Deukeren, who did a great job. This includes the aforementioned addition (diff); however, he initially included both Gr. θεός and Lat. deus as cognates, which is admittedly problematic. Many months later, this was noticed by Etiktov (diff), but he/she removed the Greek noun, making the same mistake as you. Then i followed (diff). In summary, the view that the Phrygian noun derives from PIE *deiu̯ōs is outdated. It was rejected by scholars who came after Brixhe (1983), and if i understand correctly, even Brixhe abandoned this view later on. Demetrios1993 (talk) 10:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Maroboduus

I just noticed some cn tags being posted in the name section at this article. Your kind of thing? Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Andrew Lancaster, thank you, I'll take a look. Happy new year! How are you doing? Alcaios (talk) 20:49, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year to you too. Yes I've not had much time on WP lately because I've had some other things keeping me busy, but all is well. Thanks for having a look at that.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:03, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

New article about the Celto-Germanic isoglosses (2023)

Hello, Alcaios. Here is something that might be of your interest:

van Sluis, Paulus, Anders Richardt Jørgensen, and Guus Kroonen. “European Prehistory between Celtic and Germanic: The Celto-Germanic Isoglosses Revisited”. The Indo-European Puzzle Revisited: Integrating Archaeology, Genetics, and Linguistics. Edited by Kristian Kristiansen, Guus Kroonen, and Eske Willerslev. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2023. pp. 193-244. doi:10.1017/9781009261753.018. [accessible through the Wikipedia Library] KHR FolkMyth (talk) 17:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

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