User:CJLippert/archive/2009

Algonquian loanwords

you're likely more of a "linguistics guy" than myself, so i wanted to ask your view on this: how liberally should we include entries? my own intuition was to add the first application of a loanword (eg, Mississippi River and not further derivatives (in this case, including the state of Mississippi; plus, i didn't want to allow for the endless names of, say, US warships or sports teams and so on. but i don't know if this'll stick. anyway, what's your take? - Μετανοιδ (talk, email) 16:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, some Algonquian words sometimes appear as multiple variations of the same thing, especially when it comes to toponyms. The disambiguation page that covers a large segment should be the obvious choice. As there are several Mississippi Rivers (I can think of three of them: Little one in MN, the big one in the middle of the continent, and a medium-sized one in Ontario), and one State of Mississippi, if ultimately "Mississippi" could go to a disambiguation page (such as with Pokegama), that would be the ideal scenario, as the medium-sized Mississippi River was not named after the large one, though the State and the little one were named after the large one. CJLippert (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

thx, that helps - Μετανοιδ (talk, email) 21:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

In general, disambiguation pages should not be included in categories other than the utilitarian disambiguation categeories. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)# Categories for the current guidance. older ≠ wiser 01:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

i'm pretty sure i've removed some of your categorized entries (quite by accident). i just now stumbled across Chesepian, the tribe of people who gave name to the Chesapeake Bay. what i was figuring was that we include the english derivations of the algonquian word, but not the native source word itself (this is a subcategory of foreign loanwords used in english, after all). seems to me that we're okay as long as the etymology is mentioned in the text. what say? - Μετανοιδ (talk, email) 01:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

hey-- a fellow at Category talk:Algonquian loanwords mentioned something pertinent to what i've said here (above). (on that note, i hope i haven't offended; i'm quite terrible at applying old social rules to new contexts.) anyhow, the argument is that, as tribal names are translated for english speakers, they too are loanwords. i get it, but but outside of particular exceptions (eg, Winnebago), it just seems too broad.... any strong opinions? - Μετανοιδ (talk, email) 06:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Aquash

Both "Pictou" and "Aquash" are Algonquian personal names, and that's the name of the cat. Badagnani (talk) 21:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll add that you're doing a great job. I think we may be about 25 or 30 percent there with the toponyms (and 90 percent there for the regular nouns)!  ;) Badagnani (talk) 21:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You're watching out for the Siouan toponyms found around the Carolinas, Minnesota, etc. (some of which sound Algonquian)? I guess I shouldn't have to ask because I know you're highly qualified, but I've run into that difficulty quite a bit, especially with over half of the place name articles that give no etymology. Badagnani (talk) 21:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

For Siouan names in Minnesota, I know what they are. As for the Carolinas, even if doesn't have a citation that it is Algonquian (or Siouan) other than it is "Indian", but if I understand the name and an Algonquian tribe lived there, then I have categorized the word as being Algonquian. CJLippert (talk) 21:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Great! Keep it up, Badagnani (talk) 22:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see, you live in Minnesota. Badagnani (talk) 22:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Toponyms

Does Moxahala, Ohio look Algonquian to you? I assume you have some familiarity with Algonquian languages and can get a sense of what some of these place names actually mean? There are a number of very small towns that don't have much online about their etymologies. Badagnani (talk) 22:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

yes it does. -hala in Shawnee is the same as the -hana in Lenape, which is -jiwan in Ojibwe and -chuwan in Cree... all meaning "current" or "flow". CJLippert (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, if I run across any dubious ones, I now know to give you a "-hala." Badagnani (talk) 23:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hard to tell if the Native-derived place names at List of rivers of Vermont are Algonquian. Can you help? Badagnani (talk) 06:04, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. CJLippert (talk) 13:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There seem to be a lot at List of rivers of Quebec, as well. Badagnani (talk) 06:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've got them all except for this one: Patapédia River ... it's in Algonquian areas but I just need a little more information to confirm this one. CJLippert (talk) 14:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems to match Matapédia River, but you never know, it could be a Franco or Anglo neologism (as in "ma and pa"). Badagnani (talk) 21:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it safe to add Hocking River? There are quite a lot where the etymology is uncertain but seem to come from Algonquian sources. Badagnani (talk) 20:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Also Muckinipates Creek. Badagnani (talk) 20:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Hocking, yes, and it is Lenape. Muckinipates, I don't know; let me check up on that one. CJLippert (talk) 20:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes to both Muckinipates and Patapédia. CJLippert (talk) 21:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've done the best I could at List of rivers of Pennsylvania. I just want to be sure to avoid the odd Iroquoian place name (some of which sound very similar to Algonquian ones). Badagnani (talk) 21:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

One more: List of rivers of New Hampshire. Badagnani (talk) 22:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I will take a look at L of R of NH a bit later. In the meanwhile, take a look at the ref. at Nassawango Creek.CJLippert (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Done CJLippert (talk) 03:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, it's excellent, and it makes me look forward to the day when all such articles are fortified with this type of serious, detailed etymological information. This is what makes Wikipedia so great, in my opinion. Badagnani (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, 676 so far--did you know there were so many? Are we now dab'ing if there's something like "West" or "Little" before the Algonquian component of the place name? Badagnani (talk) 03:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Didn't we agree to put all? (see the "Aquash" above). And yes, I have been dab'ing as I go along. CJLippert (talk) 03:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Great work. I believe there are probably a few hundred tiny places (creeks, ponds, etc.) that don't yet have WP articles, so the total Algonquian toponyms may be well over 1000. I hadn't thought of the Cheyenne, Arapaho, and Blackfeet places; we'd also have to get the Cree ones. Regarding the mapping application, I have to admit I don't really understand it; if you explained it thoroughly I'd try to help. Don't forget List of rivers of Pennsylvania; there seem to be a lot there that still don't have cats. Badagnani (talk) 20:38, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The mapping application is pretty nifty. As long as the article contains the latitude/longitude information, it will collect all the locations and map it for you. If you select the main mapping link located at the Category page, it will map all the location using the current "in vogue" mapping engine. If you export it to KMX file, you can view it as a map layer in GoogleEarth. So, the task is to ensure all the locations identified in the Category contains the latitude and longitude information. Sometimes, the information is in the infobox, other times, it is inline, and other times as a footer that gets applied as a header, and other times as inline text and header at the same time. So, that's the trickly part. As starters, take a look at articles that already contain the coordinates and see how the page reads that instruction, and read the template that generates the appropriate coordinates. I have gone and found some locations mapping into Europe, Asia and Africa, and have figured out the problem (such as East instead of the correct West, or 26 degrees instead of 62 degrees, etc.) so all points now map in North America. All we need are the rest of the articles without coordinates to have one in the article itself so that the mapping routine could map them as well. CJLippert (talk) 21:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Treaty 45 1/2

I have this. Do you know of other worthwhile sources? WilyD 18:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

See edits and additions I have made. CJLippert (talk) 19:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic, thanks. WilyD 19:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Algonquian toponyms for verification

• Buckwha Creek
• Canisteo River
• Codorus Creek
• Humarock - etymology is disputed; may not be Native American
• USS Merrimack
• Mettawee class gasoline tanker - check all names in list
• Mohonk Mountain House - it's Algonquian, but which cat should it go in?
• Opiscoteo Lake
• Pascack Brook
• Peddocks Island
• Lake Péribonca
• Poospatuck Reservation, New York
• Sewaren, New Jersey
• Shadigee Creek
• Spednic Lake
• Swatara Creek, Little Swatara Creek
• Walpack Township, New Jersey
• Wanamassa, New Jersey
• Category:Lakes_of_Quebec

Badagnani (talk) 19:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Are Oranoaken Creek and Onset Island (Massachusetts) not Algonquian? Badagnani (talk) 17:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

They are. I actually have those pages up right now along with 9 other pages. CJLippert (talk) 17:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Great. Lamington River is Algonquian? A lot of these Anglo-sounding ones I don't even bother checking, but you've uncovered a few. Badagnani (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Howaa! You've gone and cat. some off! I was trying to figure out how to get an appropriate fourth subcategory established, covering an Algonquian-based word-containing names. Things such as battleships, public buildings and other institutions named after the local chief, local geological feature, or some other Algonquian-based label (already identified in the head- and the three sub-categories). The Mohonk Mountain House would be put under that fourth sub-category. If you go to my Notes pages, you'll find many more that I have listed still to verify. CJLippert (talk) 17:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Assistance Requested

Your assistance please. I do not know how to change the parameters of a lake infobox. Would you please resize the infobox image on Paudash Lake to approximately 250px in order to get it to fit the expanded width of the infobox. Thank you. 216.209.115.70 (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Your assistance is most appreciated. Thank you for your correction of my mistake regarding Chief Paudash’s clan, as opposed to the translation of his name.206.172.78.109 (talk) 05:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Schools/ships/automobiles

Are you counting schools and other buildings as toponyms, but ships and automobiles as loanwords? Badagnani (talk) 19:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If a latitude/longitude can be given: toponyms. If a person's name: personal names. If an enthnic group or Tribal/First Nation government: ethnonyms. Everything else: loanwords. CJLippert (talk) 19:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, can you add those criteria in the categories? Badagnani (talk) 19:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Mantua

I live near Mantua, Ohio and always thought it came from Mantua, Italy. The Ohio article doesn't say anything about the derivation of this place name but the Utah one says it comes from the Ohio village. How do you know it's Algonquian? Badagnani (talk) 20:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The official website of the Ohio village[1] says it's named for the Italian city. The official website of the New Jersey township says it's a Native American name. The Utah place is named for the Ohio one, so my thinking is that, if we can trust the Ohio village website, the Utah place is not Algonquian in derivation. Badagnani (talk) 20:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I just called the Mantua, Ohio city offices and historical society and found that the town's founders were fascinated that the city of Mantua, Italy had withstood a siege for several weeks, and named it after that Italian city. I don't have a printed source for this yet, but it seems that the Ohio town (and hence also the one in Utah) are not Algonquian, although according to the town's website the New Jersey one is from Lenape. Badagnani (talk) 20:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Must be same as the "Miami" v. "Miami" above. The Mantua Tribe was a sub-trube of the Munsee Delaware Tribe. The Mandua Tribe (with the same word derivation and sometimes written at "Mantua") was a sub-tribe of the Meskwaki Tribe. CJLippert (talk) 21:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What was the location of these groups? Badagnani (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The Lenape Mantua were, I think, located here and there in what now is northern New Jersey and southeastern Pennsylvania. The Meskwaki Mandua were located at what now is the Bad River Indian Reservation in Wisconsin. In the Ojibwe oral history, the Mandwe were subject to genocide as because in Ojibwe, their name means "Bad" or "Wicked" or "Evil", thus must be vanquished. In the Meskwaki language, that was the name for the Fisher Clan (opposed to the major clan of the Meskwaki, which was the Fox clan, thus they were known as the Fox Tribe in English). Survivors of the genocide were adoped as Ojibwe, and thier descendants are today the Marten Clan that are found across Wisconsin and Minnesota. This is why "Bad River" is named that. The Ojibwe name for the river is "Mashkii-ziibi" meaning "Swamp River" but it seems the Meskwaki name for it was "Meskwew-sipi" meaning "Red River"... which its water is. CJLippert (talk) 21:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What's the limit?

I have no issues with cities, or lakes or rivers. After all, a toponym is a place name, and these are places. Hackensack, New Jersey and Hackensack River make perfect sense. But Hackensack High School and North Hackensack (NJT station) are not "places", nor are their names Algonquian; their names are from Hackensack, the city or the river. More bizarrely, New Milford Plant of the Hackensack Water Company just happens to contain a word of Algonquian origin inside the title of the article. There's nothing Algonquian about the place or the name, and the category will be removed. I think there needs to be a clearer line drawn as to what is included in this category. Please discuss at Category talk:Algonquian toponyms. Alansohn (talk) 20:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

See above: "If a latitude/longitude can be given: toponyms." Badagnani (talk) 20:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Besides, the train station isn't even called North Hackensack anymore. —harej (talk) (cool!) 04:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

need better sourcing

On Saco, Maine, Saco River and Saco Bay (Maine), I think we need a better source for the name's origin. The source currently in use in the article on the bay attributes the name to a Portugese explorer flying under the Spanish flag - and the derivation given there makes sense from Spanish for all words, and for saco from either Spanish or Portugese. A later French explorer called the location Chouacoit; that name may have been given to him by some Etchemin guides or may have been the locals at the time name for the place - but either way that would be an Algonquin name.[2](see #126)

There is apparently also a Saco Bay (Mozambique), which unless derivative from one of the Maine places named Saco probably would not be derived from the Algonquin. GRBerry 18:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Saco comes from the Abenaki word sâk, meaning "[river] outlet," a cognate to Sauk/Sac tribe's name, and the Ojibwe word zaag. CJLippert (talk) 01:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that derivation, as applied to this river, town and bay. The only published source I've found explicitly gave Spanish as the original. GRBerry 04:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's one source: [3]. Saco has a museum and the people there would probably know more, because they have many historical reference books. Badagnani (talk) 04:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

One more: [4] -- this one is from the town's official site. Badagnani (talk) 04:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This still doesn't explain the discrepancy with the purportedly Iberic origin of the place name given at Saco Bay (Maine). Badagnani (talk) 04:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Those look like good sources; I recognize the Varney papers as generally reliable. Some of the sources are wrong. As encyclopedia editors, ours is not to figure why - just to record what we find. I'd think it would be interesting to see what is recorded in the 1630 Plymouth Company grant, as well as in the records of Champlain's voyage (without the interpolations and footnotes in the online link above).

If I may descend into speculation, it could be that the Gomez map name was actually recorded on the map, but not the rationale. Or one or both of the claimed etymologies could be later fictions for one political reason or another. GRBerry 01:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If speculating, what if the question was misunderstood: as in "what is this bay?" and the question was interpreted as "what is this place?" thus the answer was "It is the outlet (sâk)" and it got translated as "It is called the Sâk" and thus recorded as Bahio de Saco? One of the sources say Sawacotuck ((sawâkotak), which is an initial vowel change form of sâkotak), which is also a possibility, but unless you know Algonquian grammar and the initial vowel reduplication, the reader will not be able to equate sâko... to sawâkotak. CJLippert (talk) 03:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Merrimac, Queensland

Sure, do you want me to write to the local public library, historical society, or university there? Badagnani (talk) 02:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't find references on their name. I don't know if their name is Algonquian, adopted by something they'd read in a newspaper or if bunch of Yankees moved Down-Under and decided to name a place after one of the Merrimacs found in the US, or if their name is non-Algonquian that just so happens to be written identically to all the Algonquian Merrimacs found in the US. If you could find that on the 'net, great. Otherwise, writing to someone there who would know would be helpful. CJLippert (talk) 02:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, you got it: [5]. Badagnani (talk) 02:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Great ferreting! Thanks. CJLippert (talk) 02:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Mongoquinong.

CJL, a couple of years ago, on the Talk:Howe, Indiana page, we had a short discussion of the early LaGrange County, Indiana placename "Mongoquinong". A recent book on Native American Hoosier placenames states that this settler-used name comes from the Miami-Illinois language maankwahkionka, meaning "In the Loon Land". See the article on Mongo, Indiana.  : ) The source book is a "search-inside" on Amazon.com. FYI, Mr. Harman (talk) 03:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

miigwech miinawaa (thanks again). CJLippert (talk) 04:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Medicine bag image

I wondered if that was really a medicine bag based on the article's description and the other picture. You can remove it from that article - my pride won't be hurt if this image is removed. The wording is clumsy and it doesn't look like it belongs in that article. Royalbroil 04:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

In the vernacular, people do call bandolier bags "medicine bag" though it isn't a medicine bag... which is why in the Medicine bag article, there is a bandolier bag section. CJLippert (talk) 04:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Correct, but there's already a picture of a bandolier bag being used. Is a second picture helpful, especially since it is laying flat? Royalbroil 05:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It is colourful, and unlike the black-and-white photo, you can actually take this photo and zoom in to see the details. It would be more helpful if, say, a mink-pelt bag or an owl-skin bag photo exists for the Medicine bag proper. But as the current article is so short... and without in-line references, anything that enhances this article is helpful. Now, if this article ever gets large enough that the bandolier bag gets its own article, then this and other bandolier bag photos could form a small gallery, with a full array of photos available at the WikiCommons. CJLippert (talk) 05:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Good points. Thanks for your thoughts! Royalbroil 13:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

S.E.C.C.

Thanks for catching my typos for me, seems like no matter how many times you read over something yourself, you never seem to catch them all. Although Michibichi was spelled this way in my source material, your spelling is more than likely more accurate. Thanks.Heironymous Rowe (talk) 01:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course en Français, "Michibichi" is correct if reflecting mishibizhii(yag), a "y" variation of mishibizhiw(ag). In the Anishinaabe languages, the two were at one time interchangable, but today the "w" variation is used for the manidoo while the "y" variation is used to mean "lion" or "tiger"—i.e. a large cat—as bizhiw means "lynx" or "bob-cat". The prenoun mishi= and mis= and the prefix misi- all mean "large", "grand" or "great" (think of Mississippi River (Misi-ziibi), Misabe Range (Misaabe-bimadinaa) and Lake Michigan (Mishi'igan)). CJLippert (talk) 02:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hopewell Map

I added a few (4) more Hopewell expressions to the map, per you suggestions and pointers to a specific culture, most of my reference material has almost nothing about stuff that far north. I wasn't able to find a graphic representation of each one, just vague descriptions of site locations and geographic extents. If they look wrong and you could provide a map or pointers to one, I'd be much obliged. I didn't realize it til I'd uploaded the new version, but I left out the rivers altogether. I'll prolly add them back in later, I think they're a good representation of how most of the different expressions were connected to each other, but it means sitting down and drawing lots of little lines. When I do I'll see about making the changes to them that you suggested. Thanks for the input.Heironymous Rowe (talk) 17:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. CJLippert (talk) 21:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Pisgah

Hi, I don't think Mount Pisgah (Massachusetts) or Pisgah State Park are of Algonquian origin, so I removed the Algonquian toponyms cat. This is a biblical name. Badagnani (talk) 20:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right. It is Hebrew... like Hebron, CT, or New Canaan, CT. CJLippert (talk) 22:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Naniboujou Club Lodge

CJ-- do you have a reliable source which says who Naniboujou was? Thank you. Kablammo (talk) 00:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

See Nanabozho. Will add that to the article. miigwech. CJLippert (talk) 14:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. (Somehow I knew you might know this . . .) Kablammo (talk) 14:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Two more questions:

1. Is it accurate to refer to this being as a "god"? Would "spirit" be closer?

Neither, though "spirit" would be closer. The main reason is that Nanabozho was a human, whose spirit is now considered a manidoo through a process called in Ojibwe "manidoowiziwin"... which is sort of like the Native American version of attaining Nirvana.

2. I have created a redirect from Naniboujou to Nanabozho. Do you think it might be better to make Naniboujou a disambiguation page, with both Nanabozho and Naniboujou Club Lodge listed on it? Ordinarily I would think not, but someone looking for the lodge could fill in only the proper name, and be redirected to the spirit page, which does not mention the lodge.

Kablammo (talk) 17:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think we would need a disambiguation page, but right in the Nanabozho article, we might instead want to list things that were named after him, including the Naniboujou Club Lodge. CJLippert (talk) 20:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Could you handle the Nanbozho article? It is a little technical. On the club article I will use "spirit" unless we can come up with a better term-- I would think anyone interested will just click the link. Kablammo (talk) 20:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

W. Commanda

But in the absence of the other article (or at least a disambiguation page), there is no need for disambiguation. I know there is a notable botanist named William Canby (William M. Canby, to be exact), but until I'm ready to write the article, I don't see a need to disambiguate the pages yet. Circeus (talk) 18:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Ojibwa language

Aanii! See my comments on the talk page, why I think the article should be named Ojibwa language in the English Wikipedia.--Sonjaaa (talk) 22:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Ojibwa-Ottawa language

If the Ojibwa-Ottawa language is different from the Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa language, would you please add more information that can more distinctly separate the two topics? I am confused by the existence of these two articles; they read almost identically, and I do not know what the difference is even though I diff'ed them. « D. Trebbien (talk) 04:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

There are only minor differences.

1. OjPoOd lang do not have iso1 or iso2 codes, while OjOd lang do.
2. OjPoOd lang includes Potawatomi, but OjOd lang do not.

To muddle things even more, there is the next hair-splitter—Ojibwa language, which can mean:

1. OjPoOd lang—pot, alq, oji (otw, ojs, ojb, ojc, ciw, ojw, ojg)
2. OjOd lang—alq, oji (otw, ojs, ojb, ojc, ciw, ojw, ojg)
3. Oj lang—oji (otw, ojs, ojb, ojc, ciw, ojw, ojg)
4. Oj lang proper—ojb, ojc, ciw, ojw, ojg
5. Oj lang core—ojb, ojc, ciw, ojg

And considering that majority of speakers belong to the four core dialects, what is found there is going to translate all the way up to the OjPoOd lang, with Oj lang core and Oj lang proper would make the "Ojibwa language" the fourth largest spoken indigenous language of North America, but Oj lang, OjOd lang and OjPoOd lang would make the "Ojibwa language" the third largest spoken indigenous language of North America due to the ojs factor.

Now, if someone wants to argue that there shouldn't be separation between the OjPoOd lang from the Cree-Naskapi-Innu language as the Swampy Cree (n-Cree) is mutually intellegible with OjPoOd lang, and since ojs is the dialect that can be of the CrNaIn lang group or the OjPoOd lang group (thus the common name of Oji-Cree), that argument can be made, but as the current ISO structure is set up, that is where the break is. Linguasphere had tried to address this very issue with their coding mechanism. But since the speakers of CrNaIn lang do not call their language "Anishinaabemowin" but the speakers of the OjPoOd do, this does form a natural break there but imposing "Ojibwa language" name all the way up to that level would be culturally wrong, and since "Anishinaabe language" was agreed not be used as it isn't the ISO name, we are now stuck with this confusing milleu. CJLippert (talk) 18:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Minneapolis Meetups

Town Hall Brewery
maps.google.com
1430 Washington Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55454
(612) 339-8696
October 11, 2008
Saturday at 12:00 noon (midday)
Meetup RSVP

Muddy Waters
maps.google.com
2401 Lyndale Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55405
(612) 872-2232
October 10, 2008
Friday at 10:00 PM (at night)
Alternate meetup RSVP

Adding one in case you can make it. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

UOI Template

Insane. The only thing I can think of right now is getting rid of the regions, and putting all independent UOI FNs in their own section at the bottom. Either that, or make it like the Treaties template so that it only shows the region in which that first nation is located in the template and a link goes to the UOI article if people want more. :\ vıdıoman 09:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

New FN article/adding categories

I went through the categories I keep track of and found Missanabie Cree First Nation and Bottle Hill, Ontario which haven't been visited by you yet. I also added Category:Nishnawbe Aski Nation and Template:Contains Canadian text to a few pages. There were some articles that had Template:Nishnawbe Aski Nation on them without the category, I don't know if that was on purpose or not so you can double-check. vıdıoman 05:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The NAN template should have transduced the NAN category, but I see that it didn't, so I edited the template so that it would. We should be able to remove all the NAN category from each of the pages containing the NAN template as the template should now automatically associate the NAN category to the articles, leaving only those pages not requiring the NAN template but needing the NAN category to actually contain the Template:Nishnawbe Aski Nation text. CJLippert (talk)

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Sandy Lake

CJL--

There are articles now for Sandy Lake Band of Mississippi Chippewa and Sandy Lake, Minnesota. Should these be combined? (There does not seem to be an article on the lake itself.)

I am thinking of writing an article on the Northwest Trail between Sandy Lake and Fond du Lac, and both Sandy Lake itself and the American Indian band located there (as well as the fur post) would figure prominently in it.

Regards, Kablammo (talk) 23:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Sandy Lake Band of Mississippi Chippewa is an article about the Tribe that is now part of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe but is trying to regain their independent Federal Recognition. Sandy Lake, Minnesota, is an article about the village, occupied mainly by the Sandy Lake Band of Mississippi Chippewa. The article for the lake does not exist yet but if it did, it would instead be called Big Sandy Lake (Minnesota). If you're going to write the Northwest Trail article, most likely the Tribe article would be the place to make the additions, and not the village, unless you're going to talk about the Savannah Portage (north route) and Portage River (south route), and their key importance in the trade that lead to the Sandy Lake Band be located at one end and the Fond du Lac Band to locate on the other end. Also, maybe worth noting somehow would be the Dakota before the Ojibwe, their control of the trailway there, as well as the Gros Ventre before them. Warren or Kohl (I don't quite remember which of the two) also speaks of Dakota burial biers located all along the Northwest Trail. CJLippert (talk) 23:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I have Larry Luukkonen's recent book, Between the Waters: Tracing the Northwest Trail from Lake Superior to the Mississippi, as well as the materials I used in Savanna Portage State Park. (I may move some text from the latter into the new article.) By "south route" do you mean the Prairie River route, or was there another?

I was aware of the Dakota presence but not of the Gros Ventre, but I am just starting my research. I will first add the article about the lake; I assume the village is the same as (or lineal descendant of) the original village there. Kablammo (talk) 23:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Prairie River Route is the southern east-west route. There was also series of trails connecting Big Sandy to its environs, such as the Big Sandy-Minnewawa Portage, the Rice Lake Trail (connects Lake Minnewawa to Rice Lake), the Kimberly Portage (connects Rice Lake to the Mississippi), Split Rock Portage (connects Rice Lake with Moose Lake), etc. If you're able to get hold of the Trygg-family maps of Minnesota, the series do show all the major trails, waterways, portages, villages, roads, railways, Royce areas and numbers, and timber-rights areas... all superimposed on a topographic map with Township, Range and Section numbers.

The old village centre is at 46°47′10″N 93°17′00″W, and a cemetery is still by there, but the current village is at 46°47′57.5″N 93°15′03.5″W. However, the supporting Camp was located anywhere around the lake or the trails, so while Fond du Lac controlled both the southern trail, the Raspberry Trail (connects Fond du Lac with Moose Lake without taking the Nemadji), the Knife Portage (allows the person to bypass the cataracts of the St. Louis River) and access to Lake Superior, Sandy Lake controlled the northern trail, all other surrounding trails, and the access to the Mississippi. There are accounts of these supportive camps of Sandy Lake located as far east as Floodwood, as far north as the West Swan River, and as far south as Rice River, which was, in part, when the 1854 Treaty of La Pointe was signed, part of the boundaries were defined the way it was. CJLippert (talk) 03:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

"Oji-Cree" is not a valid linguistic name

I'd like your support to move the current Oji-Cree language page back to Severn Ojibwa language. The use of the Canadian Oxford Dictionary is not a valid source for linguistic names. I have seen no actual linguists who use "Oji-Cree" as a name for this language, it is almost universally referred to as "Severn Ojibwa". (Taivo (talk) 09:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC))

Personally I would rather support the name Anishinini language. However, as that is considered a "neologoism", it isn't supported by Wikipedia. CJLippert (talk) 15:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Note to self...

Check later on these 6 articles and 1 draft to see where they're heading.

• Weechi-it-te-win Family Services - User:Prim2357
• Anishinaabe Nation in Treaty No. 3 - User:Prim2357
• User:Fhusis/Grand Council Treaty No. 3
• Cross Lake First Nation, Pimicikamak, Pimicikamak Cree Nation and Pimicikamak government - User:Fhusis

CJLippert (talk) 20:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"Ipperwash"

Hello again CJLippert, I've been putting some thought into the possible origins of a place name here in southern Ontario and immediately thought of your impressive skill set in these matters. The vicinity around "Ipperwash", a name I grew up associating with the impressive sandy beach with shallow warm waters located in the area, has historically been associated with the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation people, but how its name originated is regarded as somewhat obscure. A fairly reliable source, "Place Names of Ontario" by Alan Rayburn, states that "[as] there are no English words beginning with 'ipp-',the name may have been derived from the Norwegian "yppare vass", 'better water'." I suppose that anything is possible, however to the best of my knowledge, historically, Norwegian cultural influences are minimal in the vicinity and I'm wondering if there is a more likely explanation in the names derivation from a North American language instead. Along with the spectacular wide beach I mentioned earlier, on the nearby point of land there exists a pre-historically significant chert bed, that made the area a busy trade zone at one time, an offshore reef that housed phenomenal numbers of fish in the past and the nearby plentiful presence onshore of stone concretions, which are mentioned in the "cannonball concretions" section of the linked article. I'm giving these details in the hope that they might provide a broader basis for looking at the word in question. One other thing might be worth mentioning. Although often overlooked, Kettle and Stony Point First Nation includes a sizable population of Potawatomi people, who arrived in the 19th century as refugees from Michigan. No worries if you don't get a chance to take an informed 'guess' at this for a while and I thank you in advance for any information you might be able to provide. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 19:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

As there haven't been any "r" or "l" sounds in the Anishinaabe languages for the past ~300 years (there are some British documents with "Ojibbeway" (Algonquin) words with "l" from the 1670s), usually when an "r" appears, it is because it reflects the British pronunciation of "r" as a vowel-sound extender. With "ip-pah-wash", that does fit the general Algonquian sound scheme, but there are no such word I know of that is "ip-pah-wash" unless it is only a part of a word. For example, gizhibaawaashi (be spun by the wind) in its nominative form is gizhibaawaash [the /=(w/y)aash(i)/ part of the word is the "wind"], or dipaabaawazh (to moisten through somebody/something animate) [the /=(a)waN/ in its conjuctive is what shows up as -wazh meaning "wet" or "moisten"], but no e-baawaash or ipaawazh or anything of the like. As for the Potawatomi on Walpole, I know that, but looking at the Potawatomi article, I see that it lists it and another community as exclusively Potawatomi, rather than as communities with significant Potawatomi population. I'll go and adjust them. CJLippert (talk) 21:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you once again for your time. None of the possible interpretations seem to have much intuitive weight do they. Oh well, perhaps there's a local 19th century ancestral Norwegian 'mover and shaker' that I'm simply overlooking.:) The local Potawatomi connection is a fascinating and seriously understudied aspect of our regional history. Once again, I'd point to [6] as a wonderful starting point for anyone who wishes to introduce themselves to issues surrounding Anishinaabe occupation here in southern Ontario, it's one of a kind in many ways, apart from the very few and tightly focused academic endeavours, there's very little in print that I've found. In his book, by deftly incorporating local oral traditions and little known sources, Schmalz even brings in information regarding early hard feelings that developed between the Ojibwa and incoming Potawatomi refugees, some of which still occasionally fully surfaces and colours interactions in local native politics. An online source that someone might want to spend time with in illuminating some of what I'm talking about are the voluminous transcripts of the Ipperwash inquiry into the death of Dudley George,[7]. It's interesting to take note that the Wiki article fails to mention at all that Dudley's ancestral ethnicity was mainly Potawatomi, along with most of the Stoney Point people. Intermingled with the testimony, is an excellent resource regarding local history that is locally seldom discussed in depth in any context. A final report in synopsis form [8] prepared especially for the George family, is an 'easy in' to some of what I'm talking about, especially pages 22-27. Thank you again for your continuing kind attention to native North American articles and issues, it is always appreciated. regards Deconstructhis (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Historical reservations

Hi CJLippert. Quick note to say thanks for the great article - very useful. Before I found it I'd begun a series of articles about reservations in Nebraska, including historical and current places. Your article just gave me three more. Do you have any source materials you'd recommend? I'd appreciate any insight. Thanks. • Freechild'sup? 17:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Finding info about the Miami, Potawatomi and Chippewa reservations in Nebraska is going to prove a challenge. I actually found only one source about the "Potawatomi reservation in Nebraska" which says "There is not and there has never been a Potawatomi reservation in Nebraska." http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS302US303&q="Potawatomi%20Reservation%20in%20nebraska"&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp <-that whole strand is the link; I couldn't get it to work. Again, when you get to it, any insight is appreciated. • Freechild'sup? 18:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

My error. Kansas, not Nebraska. I did the same mistake with few others as well that I have corrected but I have missed those three. One of the maps I was looking at was the Map Showing the progress of the Public surveys in Kansas and Nebraska. 1866 and I had lost track of where I was looking at. A copy of that map and other historical maps can be found at David Rumsey Map Collections. I'll go and fix the three. Thanks for catching it. CJLippert (talk) 23:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Tahquamenon River Help

Hello CJLippert. I was trying to add name information, a citation, and an external link to the Tahquamenon River article and now the entire article does not display even though it does display on the edit page. Can you please help me fix this? --Wpwatchdog (talk) 13:45, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Shelldrake, Michigan

This article is looking for someone with Ojibwa language expertise. I thought you might be able to help. Rmhermen (talk) 02:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Done. CJLippert (talk) 15:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Names of Federally Recognized Tribes

Hi C. J. Lippert,

>the names listed are per the most current Federal Register names.
Fair enough, but the states listed after many tribes' names are not part of the tribes' names (e.g. Zuni Tribe of the Zuni Reservation, New Mexico; United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma; Cherokee Nation, Oklahoma; et cetera). "Apache Tribe of Oklahoma" is, in fact, the tribe's proper name, whereas "Thlopthlocco Tribal Town, Oklahoma" is not.

Since there is only one Kiowa Tribe in the entire universe, it made sense to me to redirect to the "Kiowa" page – same as with Osage, Peoria, Quapaw, etc. Precedents would include the "Musckogee (Creek) Nation" redirects to "Creek (people)" and "Cherokee Nation" redirects to "Cherokee." On the other hand, there are so many Pomo, Kumeyaay, Ojibwe, Lakota, and other very diverse tribes, each of those tribal governmental entities would require a separate page.

Cheers, Uyvsdi (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Midewiwin and Lenape Gamwing conflation?

Hello CJL, I'm currently experiencing some difficulties with a couple of editors on the Selwyn Dewdney article pertaining to the relationship (or lack thereof) between the Midewiwin Society and the Lenape Gamwing (Big House) religious practises, rather than continue a back and forth mini edit war and potentially violate the 3 revert policy, I thought I'd ask you to take a look at the situation on the articles talk page and perhaps offer some advice. The article that I'm putting forward as supportive for an early 18th century origin of the Midewiwin Society is perhaps less than perfect,however it is from a reliable source and I intend to eventually put a better one in place. My problem is that I'm at a loss to understand why these two editors are insistent that their citation from "Voices from the Delaware Big House Ceremony" is supportive of a first documentation of the Midewiwin Society in 1655. I have their source in front of me and it's quite clear that what's being referred to is the Lenape Gamwing ceremony, there's no mention of Midewiwin in the book they're citing at all apart from a brief mention in the preface. If I'm not mistaken the editors involved are simply taking what they're deeming to be similar elements in Gamwing and Midewiwin, extrapolating that to mean that the two are identical and then extending that by theorizing that their conclusion "proves" that the two *are* identical. Actually, I'm kind of intrigued by their idea, but the evidence that they're providing in its support is meagre to say the least and surely constitutes a presentation of original research according to Wikipedia policy. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 19:04, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your informed comments on the Selwyn Dewdney article edits. I was particularly interested in what you had to say about crossover concepts between New Age thought and the Pan-Indian movement. thanks again. Deconstructhis (talk) 02:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Stockbridge-Munsee Indian Reservation Wisconsin

According to the media today-the United States 7th Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the State of Wisconsin that the Stockbridge-Munsee Indian Reservation lost land in the 1850s due to an act of Congress.Maybe you might make use of this information.Thanks-RFD (talk) 21:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I foolishly wandered back to FAC

You may be interested in Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Peter Jones (missionary). Cheers, WilyD 22:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Well, it worked out much better. I really owe you a debt of thanks on that one. Cheers, WilyD 13:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Port Stanley, Ontario

I'm back to "bug" you one more time for a translation. :) The source I use for gaining leads on the history of place names in Ontario is the not so oddly titled "Place Names of Ontario" by Allan Rayburn (1997). In it, one of Port Stanley's original names is given as "Akiksibi", when Europeans arrived, they renamed the community Kettle Creek Village around 1812. What do you make of the first one? Another name that I've encountered applied to the place amongst local natives (but only orally) is pronounced something like "skin-a-wab-a" or "skin-ee-wab-a". "Skinawaba" was on two occasions laughingly folk translated to me as "fire water", which is interesting because of the locales association with the details of the infamous David Ramsay murders. Any insight that you can provide here is, as always, deeply appreciated. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 20:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Akik(o)-ziibi does mean "Kettle River" (the 'o' joins the two words into one, while without the 'o', it remains as two words). "Firewater" is a word that sounds similar to "skin-[ee/a]-wab-a"... it is is(h)kodewaaboo, or if you have vowel syncope in play, it would be s(h)kodewaaboo but it can easily be "young male", which would be os(h)kinawaabe, or with the syncope, s(h)kinĕwaabe... where I have shown the schwa as ĕ, which may show up as 'e', 'i' or a muted 'a' or it may be dropped completely, depending on the particular dialect, and transcribed appropriately. In both words, in southern Ontario, most communities say 'shk' but there are/were some communities that say 'sk'... which is why the 'h' is shown in parentheses. The "firewater" can refer to alcohol, but if "young male", it may be named after a significant historical figure and that was his name. CJLippert (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, another fine point: it would be Kettle Creek that would be called Akik(o)-ziibi and not the village on that stream. The village located on the Kettle Creek would have the locative suffix, making its name be Akik(o)-ziibiing. In maps from the 1830's, it seems Port Stanley was called Sterling. Once roads were constructed, the maps then show a road from there to St. Thomas and then to London, connecting London to Lake Erie in the shortest route possible. The road may have followed an existing trail, but it seems the maps I'm looking at don't show trails. Do you know why Kettle Creek is call that? Is the creek a whitewater creek (where the water resembles boiling water in a kettle)? Or maybe there are rock structures on the banks forming holes known as "kettles"? CJLippert (talk) 19:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

This is one of those late night editing sessions that really should be left till morning, but here goes anyway. Sterling (or "Stirling") in regard to Port Stanley, appears to be one of those place names that only a few mapmakers and local politicians truly liked and never really stuck. I have a solid reference to a post office called "Port Stanley" at that location from 1829 on, contrary to the 1824 date that currently appears in the Port Stanley article itself. As always, things are more complicated than they first appear. European land development right at the mouth of Kettle Creek was a slow start, land was acquired there by Col. John Bostwick in 1804, but he didn't build anything at all until he constructed a house circa 1817. On the flats beside the banks of the creek, about a mile north of the mouth, situated at the outskirts of the present village and sheltered by a dune complex, another community referred to as "Selbourne"(or Selborne) got off to a faster start when a mill and dwelling was constructed there in 1817 by a competitor of Bostwick's, early in its existence it was sometimes referred to as "Talbot Mill". By 1827, this community had grown considerably, to the point where housing, shops, services and a distillery appeared; a small shipbuilding concern even managed to construct a 90 ton schooner, christened the "Stirling". References I have indicate that although Bostwick had surveyed lots on his property at the mouth, his holdings were simply over priced in comparison to those in Selbourne further north on the creek and so development stalled. I believe that it was during the early 20's that Bostwick was touting his land as "Kettle Creek Village" and through his government connections eventually managed to land the post office contract, naming it Port Stanley, in honour of Lord Stanley, a friend of local land baron Thomas Talbot. Selbourne never acquired a post office, to the best of my knowledge. Selbourne's peak occurred in the 1840's, but a devastating fire in 1854 destroyed most of the village, followed by a spring flood in 1855 which finished it off. Thereafter, the former site of Selbourne was often referred to as "Suckertown", possibly a reference to spring fish harvesting, some wags suggesting it constituted a dig at its former inhabitants. The community of Port Stanley was dominant after the mid 50's.

Your next comments regarding maps of early regional trails in the vicinity is well taken. I've never seen one, although I've managed to gain a fair idea of their locations based on oral and early textual sources. The original trail in the Kettle Creek valley in all likelihood closely followed the creek northward to a point in the vicinity of modern day St. Thomas, where it veered off to the west-northwest to a point on the Thames River near one of the present day reserves. That path, although obviously used substantially by the local Kettle Creek band, was not the primary trail in the immediate vicinity. That existed a few miles west of the mouth of Kettle Creek, beginning at the mouth of a smaller drainage, now called Talbot Creek, the site of former community named Port Talbot. Paddlers making their way westward along the north shore of Lake Erie, who wished to cut northward toward Lake Huron, or west to Lake St. Clair, would have left the lake at the mouth of Talbot Creek, followed it for a very short time and when it abruptly turned eastward, portage a relatively few short miles to the Thames, once again, arriving at a point on that river roughly where the reserves are located today. From there, they would have had the choice to either descend the Thames (general direction to the west) to its mouth on lake St. Clair, or ascend it for a short distance to a point now on the western outskirts of modern day London, then make one last portage northwards (crossing the small Sydenham River drainage in the process) to a point on the Ausable river near the present day village of Nairn. From there, travellers simply followed the Ausable west and north to its mouth on Lake Huron, thus positioning themselves to follow the Huron coastline northwards toward the Bruce Peninsula and beyond. Even a cursory look at a modern map suggests how much travel time you could potentially cut off by following these routes and if you were attempting to reach the southern Lake Huron basin from eastern Lake Erie, you could bypass the sometimes politically unstable Detroit river region completely by doing so. I'm afraid that I'm going to have to leave the remainder of this account until tomorrow, I'm afraid I'm running out of steam at this point. I'll fill you in on the history of the Kettle Creek name at that time. By the way, the presumably earliest name I've encountered for the vicinity of modern Port Stanley is "Kanaigo"; sounds Iroquoian to me. One last thing for now, care to take a shot at the origin of the name of the male Kettle Creek band member murdered in 1772 by David Ramsay? It has come down to us as "Wandagan". Thanks again for your continued assistance and encouragement. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 08:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I found an online newspaper article that refers to the creek as "Skitteewaabaa"... which would most like be ishkodewaaboo as it does refer to it as "fire water". The McKee Purchase (Crown Treaty No. 2) of May 19, 1790, uses the mouth of the Kettle Creek as a boundary definition point. However, Kettle Creek is mentioned as "...Catfish Creek or otherwise Rivière au Chaudière...." Another thought... maybe the word is not ishkode (fire) but rather iskate (shallows/low-water)... as "sucker" or "catfish" can be waapagesi, it is also possible that the last half of "ski[n/tt]-[ee/a]-w[a/aa]b-[a/aa]" may be the first half of waapagesi and the recorded name is remenant of a longer name... maybe the first part of iskatewaapagesiigwakiig-ziibi (River in the region with low-water suckers) got corrupted to ishkodewaaboo-ziibi (firewater-river), while the last part of iskatewaapagesiigwakiig-ziibi got corrupted to Akik-ziibi and translated into French as "Rivière au Chaudière" and then to English as "Kettle Creek"? As for Kanaigo and Wandagan, and for that matter Smagun and Teschetabra sounds like Wendat to me, though Nigig is Ojibwe, meaning "Otter". CJLippert (talk) 19:33, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually Catfish Creek, (Rivière au Chaudière) is the first drainage of any significant size to the east of Kettle Creek on the north shore of Erie. In terms of the origins of the name of the Kettle (Akik(o)-ziibi), I've only heard conjecture. The most commonly encountered guess is that the name relates to the visual presence here and there of glacially rounded small boulders in the stream bed. A cursory look might suggest the bottom of an upturned "kettle", although the sections of the creek where this is a prominent feature are somewhat limited and most streams of its size (and smaller) anywhere in southern Ontario have identical stones; it's never really struck me as a satisfying answer given the context. Others have suggested a relationship between the name and the once large scale processing of spring sap for sugar in the vicinity, because of the presence of large numbers of appropriate maple trees located on the moraines surrounding some sections of the drainage, or even alcohol production, relating it back to "skittiewaaba", which by the way is the oldest variant of the spelling that I've been able to find. I'd like to add one more, perhaps 'off the wall' possibility. "Kettle Point", perhaps 35 miles to the northwest of the stream, traditionally received that name from the presence of large, some might suggest "kettle", shaped concretions scattered along the beach front embedded in the local bedrock. Glacial movements in the past pushed relatively large numbers of these objects further inland, leaving them behind buried in the local glacially deposited soils of the region when the ice retreated. It's not unheard of that one or more of these can even turn up regionally during larger scale foundation excavation projects, for instance an almost one meter in diameter example of one was found during the construction of the main library at the University of Western Ontario in London and is currently on display there, perhaps 10 miles or so from the Kettle valley. I'd like to suggest that it might be possible that one or more of these might have eroded out of the soil of the Kettle's valley walls in the past and the name simply stuck, I don't know if you've ever seen one, but they are quite polished and "constructed" in appearance, they leave a lasting visual impression. It would be interesting to know if Kettle Point natives had a distinctive word for their local concretions and whether or not it related to the European concept of a cooking container. Sorry for the delay. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 21:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Stone kettles were highly prized communal property. Sap would be collected in birch-bark boxes (makak) and they would be brought to an area dubbed iskigamizigan (place to boil-off [sap]) and make sugar. Farther west (in Wisconsin, Minnesota, NW Ontario and SE Manitoba) in autumn, the same kettle was used for parching manoomin (wild rice). When the French arrived, cast-iron kettles became the trade commodity that was most desired, as a personal kettle allowed women free-time as most time was spent making makak for cooking, food storage and food transport, and the personal kettle eliminated the need for the cooking makak. It also allowed for smaller bands to form, as band-movements were in part dictated by the ability for a woman to carry out her "moon rituals" where as menstrating women would exclude themselves to a "moon house." But with the introduction of a personal kettle, a woman was able to set up her very own "moon house" and private kettle (with assistance from just a few of her "sisters"), without the need for a large communal care system. This greater mobility as smaller bands also meant that with the large iron kettles/cauldrons, additional areas were opened up for sugaring, as the large kettle could easily be relocated to the sugaring grounds rather than transporting large quantities of the raw sap to the kettle. So, check if there are records of vast red-maple forests within 50km of these places with "Kettle" names, as this will suggest a kettle-ground and not just rocks resembling polished kettle bottoms. If no such forests existed within 50km, then the kettle-resembling rocks are your best bet. CJLippert (talk) 23:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The Kettle Creek valley, particularly in the part of the drainage around modern St. Thomas, Ontario is ideal for sap collection for the production of sugar and the proximity of the nearby Thames would expedite the movement of the finished product in trade. Actually, local oral lore still points to sugar manufacturing as an early important industry. It's interesting to take note that the regions both east and west of present day London and St. Thomas are for the most part large sand plains, much more conducive to the growth of fairly widely separated nut trees, grassland and deer hunting than sugaring. Their finished goods would be an easy 'sell' in those areas. Kettle Point, on Lake Huron, is a somewhat different situation but your theory might hold true there as well. The mouth of the Ausable River is quite close by at Port Franks and although Kettle Point itself is quite rocky and sandy, the Ausable drainage is loaded with appropriate maple trees. Thank you once again for your thoughts, you are a wonderful resource in these matters. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 19:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Algonquian toponym

Is Wyomissing, Pennsylvania (and Wyomissing Hills, Pennsylvania) an Algonquian toponym? Badagnani (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure looks like one (esp. with the locative -ng). Will look into it a bit more first. CJLippert (talk) 21:31, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

State recognized tribes

As a major contributor to this article, I would like your opinion on the removal of a large paragraph of text which I restored and which has since been removed again. Rmhermen (talk) 18:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

As I see myself more as the list maintainer and not the article contributor, I have gone and verified that the Lipan were indeed now State Recognized, and deleted their listing in the Unrecognized tribes listing and pulled in the info that was there into the State Recognized listing. As for the descriptive 2 paragraphs, of which the second was deleted and undeleted repeatedly, I went ahead and merged the two paragraphs together and then separated them into three paragraphs, as this would eliminate the redundancy issue and yet still present the necessary details and examples. CJLippert (talk) 19:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. It seems the anon. IP user still deletes everything that isn't the first paragraph. Placing a Vandalism Warning (1) on that IP user page. CJLippert (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Picture for Ottawa language article

A peer reviewer for the Ottawa language article has suggested that a relevant picture would enhance the article: "If at all possible, could there be an image in the upper right corner of the lead? Perhaps a photo of some native speakers or the map?"
The map would be alright, but if there's something else appropriate so much the better. I do not have much of a sense of what is visually appropriate, so any suggestions would be valuable. John Jomeara421 (talk) 03:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Moving the map up would be OK. But how about a page out of Andrew Blackbird's grammar? Or if a modern image is desired, maybe the Anishnaabemdaa page has an appropriate image which with that site-owner's permission may be used. CJLippert (talk) 12:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Blackbird sounds good and would be a nice sample of indigenous writing. Even if not used on front page it could replace the graphic in the Writing system section if don't want to have more than one example of a printed page. John Jomeara421 (talk) 01:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Native-American languages

Hello, sir. I asked in the #wikipedia channel on the Freenode IRC network today for someone who speaks Lakota and would be willing to contribute to the new Lakota language Wikipedia I am trying to start. I was directed to you for more information due to your experience with Native-American languages and because you are an active member of Wikipedia. I was told you did not speak Lakota, but it seems you are the likeliest of any to know someone who does and would like to contribute. If you do, please let me know so I may get in touch with them and get the project rolling. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Ζρς ιβ' ^¡hábleme! 23:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi, you are correct that I don't speak the Lakota language (and my knowledge of Dakota language is limited). I have forwarded your note to some colleagues of mine at the Santee Sioux Nation and Spirit Lake Nation. Hopefully they will be able to pass the request along to someone who is knowledgeable in the Lakota language who could assist you. I have imbedded your Userpage URL instead of your "¡hábleme!" so hopefully the potential contributor could get hold of you that way. CJLippert (talk) 20:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, sir. I appreciate your help very much. Ζρς ιβ' ^¡hábleme! 01:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Ottawa language

I'm thinking of putting Ottawa language up for Featured Article, although the process seems rather arduous. Any suggestions on parts that need more work would be appreciated; putting comments on Talk:Ottawa language would help keep track. Thanks. Jomeara421 (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC) John

Ojibw(a\e)

The bot's removal of the tag was only supposed to be on the condition that the other template — the one that is supposed to be inline with the discussion — is not there. Of course, it was not supposed to take out the entire page either; others have reported the bot doing that, so I have stopped that particular task. If you feel that the discussion needs to be fleshed out more, you are welcome to extend it by adding a statement before the original statement (such as "Extending this discussion. ~~~~"). —harej (talk) (cool!) 03:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Delaware Tribe

Perhaps you can determine how to add the information to the Federally recognized tribes article, but the Delaware Tribe just gained federal recognition on July 28th.[9] [10] [11]. -Cheers, Uyvsdi (talk) 07:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Thanks. The list is updated when the FR is updated, so I'll keep an eye on the next published list. CJLippert (talk) 21:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you can put an addendum section at the end? -Uyvsdi (talk) 21:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Image on Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory, Ontario article

Hello again CJLippert, I hope your summer has gone well. I'd like your able input on an edit. This morning, I removed an image from the article mentioned above that has been subsequently replaced. When I removed it, I explained in the edit summary that I felt that the image was of dubious value to the accompanying article because in my opinion it not only conveyed a stereotypical perspective of the inhabitants of the community in question (and Native people in general), it was of questionable relevance in that the costume on the statue appeared to be that of the plains people, not an Iroquoian culture. In truth, it appears to me to be a hackneyed representation of the traditional (and often loathed) "cigar store Indian". As I mentioned, an editor has replaced the image and has defended its placement in the article in their edit summary thusly: "rv - I didn't make or place this statue in Tyendinaga. So I'm not responsible for stereotyping or wrong dresses. But it's there, so it's not of dubious value as it gives an impression of the place." What remains ignored in this comment, is that out of all the possible images that could be chosen to illustrate the community of Tyendinaga by this editor (who also took the picture) they've contextually unilaterally selected this one to represent the entire territory. In my opinion, it's irrelevant in this context whether the statute is situated on the reserve or not; or whether or not the business it's situated in front of is owned by a Mohawk. In my own mind, it's analogous to a situation where someone took a picture of a statue of a wide-eyed black man eating a piece of watermelon ironically placed in an antique store window in Harlem or Watts and then offering it up as the sole representative image attached to an article about either of those communities. I may be a little too close to the trees to see the forest on this issue, so I would value your input a great deal. In your opinion, am I just being too sensitive or "PC" on this one? cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you about the photo, but in that FN Reserve, that statue is a well-known landmark (not sure if well-liked or not, though). I suggest maybe for the Reserve, the head image ought to be a map of the IR in respect to the County and the County to Ontario, so that people would get the sense of where the IR is in Ontario (though southern Ontarians ought to know where Bay of Quinte, most others folks don't... especially those folks just south of Canada). If the article was expanded to include topology, climate, fauna/flora, public infrastructure and commerce located within the IR, then maybe in the commerce section having the statue might of OK, but I would rather have the image of that statue be part of the photo gallery of the IR, not an image directly in the article itself representing their commercial interests. Visiting the article, I see that the stub article have some issues. Maybe a major clean-up and beef-up effort is needed. Also, I see that we're missing an article for the FN associated with that IR. CJLippert (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Question on Minnesota

Hello CJ. A user has posed a question on the state's name at Talk:Minnesota#name.3F. Could you take a look? Regards, Kablammo (talk) 22:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Minnesota Meetup

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2009

Proposed date: Saturday, October 10.
Details under discussion.

Please share this with anyone who may be interested.

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Delivered by Jonathunder (talk) 21:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Update: the meetup will be at 1 p.m. Sunday, October 11, in St. Paul. Click here for more details and to R.S.V.P. Jonathunder (talk)