Talk:Zamora (pianist)

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Enough. Continued WP:BLUDGEON from the connected contributor. Negative vehiclizing established editors to promote their COI, while conveying thanks in spades to those who had the patience to deal with this promoter in the depth they did. ——Serial 13:28, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Zamora (Pianist) Greetings, I am a fan of Zamora (Pianist) and I am adding this list of true facts with solid references that were removed due to copying it exactly from the biography page of the artist, in order to restore all of them one by one as it was suggested by Wiki Admin C.Fred. The list of achievements of Zamora through his lifetime is impressive and huge but I will start with the following 27 most important and relevant achievements. Biography Highlights: 1. Zamora was postulated two times as Presidential Candidate of Venezuela and it was removed, even with the official press release from the National Electoral Council of Venezuela (CNE) as reference announcing him as one of the Presidential Candidates. Here is the link with the official press release from the National Electoral Council of Venezuela: Link of reference: http://www4.cne.gob.ve/web/sala_prensa/noticia_detallada.php?id=2078 Note: Forgive the interruption, but this topic can be found in #Runs for president? below. —C.Fred (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC) 2. Zamora is also considered a national treasure and as one of the greatest composers of piano and instrumental music worldwide. The review was made by Julie Anderson (AirPlayDirect.com). So, I agree to restore this relevant fact as it was suggested (He has been “described” as a national treasure and as one of the greatest composers of piano and instrumental music worldwide). The article about Zamora published by major Venezuelan newspaper EL UNIVERSAL seems to have been placed wrongly as reference about that. Here is the link with the official biographical review by Julie Anderson @AirPlayDirect.com Link of reference: http://www.airplaydirect.com/music/zamora 3. A virtuoso “maestro” and prolific composer who has received multiple international recognitions from prestigious awards, public figures and personalities around the world. Zamora was also described as a prolific composer (synonym of virtuoso “maestro”). The review was made by Jason Birchmeier (Allmusic.com) The last part (...who has received multiple international recognitions from prestigious awards, public figures and personalities around the world) is obvious since he has been nominated several times to The GRAMMY Awards along with other legendary celebrities like Kitaro, Pat Metheny and Gustavo Dudamel, the famous orchestra conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. Link of reference: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/zamora-mn0002451836/ 4. Zamora is also a writer and this fact was removed Here is his official author page @Amazon.com. Link of reference: https://www.amazon.com/Zamora/e/B003K57CB2/ 5. Zamora lives traveling between The United States, his native country and around the world according to his official website and it is wrongly stated that he lives in both Los Angeles and Venezuela. No person (human) is able to live in two locations at the same time. Here is the link of reference from his official website (alejandrozamora.com) http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/full_bio/full_bio.htm 6. He is also a politician (same as writer) and this fact was also removed. Link of reference: http://www4.cne.gob.ve/web/sala_prensa/noticia_detallada.php?id=2078 (Same link with the official press release from the National Electoral Council of Venezuela) Also, official documents signed by the National Electoral Council of Venezuela showing that he was postulated two times as Presidential Candidate of Venezuela (2012 and 2018) are available at the official website of Zamora. Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/bio.htm 7. Zamora arrived to the red carpet of the GRAMMYs in a “DeLorean” - the iconic car used in the legendary movie “Back to The Future” dresses as King with a cape, crown and scepter and this fact was removed too. Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/bio.htm VIDEO: http://alejandrozamora.com/video/ZAMORA_GRAMMY_DELOREAN/ 8. Zamora was nominated @The GRAMMYs (2010) in the same category along with legendary artist “Kitaro” and this important and relevant fact was removed too. Link of reference: List of GRAMMY Nominees - New Age category (2010) http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/full_bio/53_GRAMMY.pdf 9. Zamora also was nominated @The GRAMMYs (2011) in the same category along with legendary artist “Pat Metheny” and this important and relevant fact was removed too. List of GRAMMY Nominees - New Age category (2011) Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/full_bio/54_GRAMMY.pdf 10. Zamora was also nominated to the GRAMMY® Awards the same year along with the famous Venezuelan conductor of Los Angeles Philharmonic "Gustavo Dudamel" representing his native country Link of reference: http://www.keeprockingvenezuela.com/los-amigos-invisibles-la-vida-boheme-gustavo-dudamel-y-alejandro-zamora-nominados-a-los-grammys-americanos/ 11. He is a descendant from General "Ezequiel Zamora" Here is the genealogical tree of Zamora published at his official website (hyperlink “descendant”) Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/full_bio/zamora_tree.PNG 12. Zamora is also a singer and this fact was removed too. You can listen him singing in the samples of his new album VOX published at his official website. Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/disco/vox/vox.htm 13. He is also a philanthropist and this fact was removed too. (A Philanthropist can be anyone helping other people through their own Foundation). Here is the link to his Foundation. Link of reference: http://foundation.alejandrozamora.com 14. He is also a philosopher and evangelist and these facts were removed too. You can read these facts through his many thoughts, proverbs and reflections of his evangelist teachings and experiences in his book Thoughts, Proverbs and Reflections. Here is the link to his book @Amazon.com Link of Reference: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1449598366 15. He is also a poet. The lyrics of his songs are like a poem. Link of reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXqq38tTSRw 16. He supports and promotes a healthy lifestyle, a healthy diet and he is also advocated of natural medicine. You can read these facts in his book “Panacea”. Here is the link to his book titled “Panacea” Link of Reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/biblio/panacea/panacea.htm 17. His music has been offered online worldwide through all the international websites of Amazon.com, including America, Asia and Europe. Link of reference: Amazon.com (US / North America) https://www.amazon.com Amazon.com (Europe) https://www.amazon.es/Instrumental-Oasis-Vol-6-Zamora/dp/B01GUP4QBC Amazon.com (Asia) https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Zamora/dp/B01GUP4QBC 18. Prestigious singers from around the world have sung his songs in different languages, including famous singers Ana María Kovacs from Hungary and Leti Garza, from Texas, USA who is the vocalist of the song “Tropical Oasis” of his GRAMMY® nominated album “Instrumental Oasis, Vol.4” You can listen and watch the video of these singers singing the songs composed by Zamora here: Link of reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXqq38tTSRw 19. The vocal version of the instrumental song “Tropical Oasis” from his GRAMMY® nominated album “Instrumental Oasis, Vol. 4” performed by Leti Garza was a great success around the world gathering thousands of views in YouTube. Here is the link to the video @YouTube Link of reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXqq38tTSRw 20. The video of the vocal version of "Tropical Oasis", from the original GRAMMY® nominated album was created thanks to Mike Greenly, who wrote the lyrics of the Virginia state anthem. Here is the link to the video posted @YouTube with Mike Greenly himself commenting and the pinned comment with the special thanks given by Zamora to Mike Greenly. Link of reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXqq38tTSRw 21. He is the Founder / Admin of The G-Club!, a Facebook group with more than 10 years online and a coalition of more than 2000 prestigious musicians, independent artists, celebrities, nominees, winners and voting members of The GRAMMYs, The EMMYs and The Hollywood Music In Media Awards (HMMA) among many other prestigious awards. Here is the link to the Facebook group: Link of reference: https://www.facebook.com/groups/434141456691589 22. Zamora is the owner of a radio station called OASIS-FM Link of reference: http://oasis-fm.ddns.net 23. Zamora is the owner of an UBER style taxi service in his native country. You can see that Zamora / Zamora Foundation is the owner listed at the bottom of the page. Link of reference: www.tutaxi.com.ve 24. Zamora has been donor and supporter of many non-profit organizations like UNICEF, the Internatinal Red Cross and MusiCares through the GRAMMY® Foundation. Here is a link showing his name as official supporter @MusiCares and The GRAMMY Foundation Link of reference: MusiCares: https://www.grammy.com/sites/com/files/pages/mc_csr_2012.pdf GRAMMY Foundation: https://www.grammy.com/sites/com/files/pages/gf_csr_2012.pdf 25. He was a pioneer of the pre-Internet era in his native country and founder of Online BBS (1990s) Link of reference: http://www.textfiles.com/bbs/BBSLISTS/tbbbses.txt 26. He has composed more than 100 solo piano and instrumental songs. Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/disco/disco.htm 27. He has received special recognition and congratulations from many public figures, musicians and personalities around the world as NASA Administrator, Charles Bolden, Prince of Asturias (Actually King of Spain), The Vatican / Pope Francis / Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin, Ambassador / Apostolic Nuncio Aldo Giordano, Kevin Pike, Mike Greenly, Ambassador Vladimir Zaemsky from Russia, José Antonio Abreu, Los Angeles Philharmonic Director / Conductor Gustavo Dudamel and legendary musician “Chick Corea”, among many others. You can see here a huge showcase of recognitions and words of congratulations from personalities and public figures around the world given to Zamora. Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/full_bio/full_bio.htm Johnjmuller (talk) 17:24, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Comment. I also advised this user that a linkdump link this is not a requested edit. Instead, they need to go in smaller chunks and clearly explain the desired changes and the supporting independent sources. —C.Fred (talk) 17:28, 29 April 2021 (UTC) OK Thank you Wiki Admin C.Fred for your kind support and suggestions. First of all, I want to propose to restore the section “Biography Highlights” in order to have a simple global section to ease the process to start discussing and adding these items orderly one-by-one. Now, Here is the first item to start: 1. Zamora was postulated two times as Presidential Candidate of Venezuela and it was removed, even with the official press release from the National Electoral Council of Venezuela (CNE) as reference announcing him as one of the Presidential Candidates. Here is the link with the official press release from the National Electoral Council of Venezuela: Link of reference: http://www4.cne.gob.ve/web/sala_prensa/noticia_detallada.php?id=2078 And, Here are the official documents signed by the National Electoral Council of Venezuela (CNE) validating his two postulations as Presidential Candidate of Venezuela (2012 and 2018). http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/CNE_1.jpg http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/CNE_2.jpg The copy of these documents is located in the official page of the artist at the left / bottom of the biography page (see CNE logo) hyperlink number 1 and 2 next to the PDF with the official press release of the National Electoral Council of Venezuela (CNE). Johnjmuller (talk) 17:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Note: After discussion and successful verification of the solid references that I have posted for each item, I will copy the original paragraph from the official artist biography page here and I would like to propose to C.Fred to edit and include it written differently to comply with the Wikipedia guidelines for inclusion in order to restore it again inside the article about Zamora @Wikipedia. Johnjmuller (talk) 18:31, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Please make the proposals in separate sections, so it's easy to see what's being requested. —C.Fred (talk) 20:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Item # 1 - Runs for president According to a release from CNE, an "Alejandro José Zamora Moya" ran for president of Venezuela in 2012. There is no other biographical information in the release, so how do we know that person who ran is the subject of the article? —C.Fred (talk) 20:11, 29 April 2021 (UTC) The official document stamped and signed by the National Electoral Council of Venezuela shows his full name, including his date of birth (07-13-1979) http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/CNE_1.jpg Johnjmuller (talk) 22:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Which, while it's a legal document, is hosted on the subject's own website, so that mitigates privacy concerns. I suppose we also need to change the introduction sentence, then: "Alejandro Jose Zamora Moya (born July 13, 1979), known professionally as Zamora..." —C.Fred (talk) 23:58, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Sounds logical Johnjmuller (talk) 00:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC) It seems a bit borderline in terms of importance, to be honest – the source mentions that he registered as an independent candidate, but I can't find that his candidacy was discussed anywhere, or that his name was on any actual election ballot. On the other hand, as long as there is an independent source, it might be included (though maybe not with the phrasing "ran for president" which implies that he was actually part of the presidental race.) --bonadea contributions talk 09:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC) @Bonadea: How does "registered as a candidate for the 2012 presidential election" work? —C.Fred (talk) 12:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC) "Formal registration" is the term used in 2012 Venezuelan presidential election and in the sources there, for example this one. I do not claim any particular knowledge of the system, but judging by what [1] says, the two main candidates (Chávez and Capriles) and five "independent" candidates were formally registered by 1 June. However, on this website where the election results are reported, Zamora's name is not mentioned; that is why I am wondering what the process may have been between the formal registration and election day. In any case, it is not for us to carry out original research about this, so all we can do is report what the independent sources say. This source (looks like a press release) also says that he had registered as a candidate. --bonadea contributions talk 14:49, 30 April 2021 (UTC) @Bonadea: Your understanding of Spanish is not good. I saw that you have studied several languages and this happens when you try to learn to speak several languages at the same time. To summarize, the article says that his registration / postulation as Presidential Candidate was accepted along with Hugo Chavez (President of Venezuela at that time, running for re-election) and other candidates too = They all ran for President, and @C.Fred: in English the right description in this case is “He was postulated as Presidential Candidate of Venezuela” as the original article copied from the website of Zamora that Bonadea removed mentioned. @Bonadea: You also have to consider that Venezuela has had a dictatorial / socialist government during more than 20 years and his 2 postulations occurred during this time (2012 with Hugo Chavez and 2018 with Maduro), so the risk of assassination for these candidates is very high and propaganda from candidates trying to run for President against any dictator is removed or silenced at all cost through Internet, or any other media. Johnjmuller (talk) 13:52, 30 April 2021 (UTC) Do not comment on your fellow editors. The phrase "he was postulated" is not idiomatic English; depending on the context, the corresponding Spanish verb might be, for instance, "applied" or "registered" in English. Sources use the term "register", so that is almost certainly the appropriate word. Since Zamora's website cannot be used as a source for this, the phrasing he uses is irrelevant. As for your observation that propaganda from candidates trying to run for President against any dictator is removed or silenced – I do not doubt that for a second, but Wikipedia would not use propaganda from a candidate as a source anyway, but will only go on what independent sources say. --bonadea contributions talk 14:49, 30 April 2021 (UTC) "Postulated" is absolutely not the right word to use there, since President of Venezuela is a secular position, not a church position. —C.Fred (talk) 15:40, 30 April 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Although the word “Postulated” is known to be used for religious use, it’s not limited for that use only since it’s still used for politics in specific countries like Venezuela. So, for this reason I said that for this case the right word is “Postulated” since that you can search through google “Chavez se postulo como candidato Presidencial” or “Maduro se postulo como candidato Presidencial” or “<any candidate> se postulo como candidato Presidencial” and the right English translation is “He was postulated as Presidential candidate” For example: If you do a search through google: Chavez se postuló (Chávez was postulated) [or any candidate] https://www.google.com/search?q="Chavez se postulo" You are going to get lots of results, validating my statement that the word “Postulated” is used heavily used in Venezuela in politics to refer to a candidate entering officially to run for any position. p.s, “Zamora se postuló” or “Chavez se postuló” or “El se postuló” In English is = “He was postulated” Johnjmuller (talk) 17:52, 30 April 2021 (UTC) (edit conflict) Nobody is disputing the claim that "[X] se postuló" is used in Spanish about presidential candidates in Venezuela. But the English translation of that is not "[X] was postulated", not when you are talking about a presidential election. Google Translate gives you that translation, but Google Translate is never exact, and in this instance it is incorrect. (In fact, "ran for president" is probably the best phrasing, if the information is included.) --bonadea contributions talk 18:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC) @Bonadea: @C.Fred: I already said that: They all ran for President. However, IMHO the use of the phrase “He was postulated” is still valid considering that it’s the direct translation in English (and vice-versa),and most important is the fact that this word is heavily used in politics in Venezuela. Perhaps for this reason it is written of this way at Zamoras website or maybe the text was written originally in Spanish since his website is available in both English and Spanish and the webmaster / editor used a software to translate it from Spanish, but again its my personal opinion. So, in English “ran for President” would be ok too. Johnjmuller (talk) 19:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: - I think that we are about to end this item #1 in order to advance to the next 26 remaining items... You already have the links with solid references and official documents validating that he ran for President of Venezuela two times (2012 and 2018) Also, “Ran for President” has been the phrase with more acceptance So, “He ran for President of Venezuela two-times (2012 and 2018)” would be the best phrasing. Now, it is up to you to add this fact inside the article again to go to the next item #2. And, Finally, Item #6 should to be restored again along with item #1. 6. He is also a Politician. Johnjmuller (talk) 00:27, 1 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: It does not follow that because he ran for president once (we still need sources for 2018), that he is a politician. Kanye West ran for president but is hardly considered a politician. —C.Fred (talk) 00:57, 1 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: The Wikipedia article of Kanye West describes him as a Politician https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanye_West You can’t go to the moon without being an Astronaut. So, you can’t run for President of a country without being a Politician. About the 2018 Presidential Elections of Venezuela, As you may know, the 2018 Presidential Election of Venezuela was a sham and rigged process full of irregularities and the National Electoral Council of Venezuela never released the names of all the Independent candidates running for President. There is a huge review made by an organization called “Venezuelan Electoral Observatory “(OEV) complaining about this and a lot of other things https://oevenezolano.org/2018/04/cne-incurrio-en-cuatro-graves-irregularidades-en-candidaturas-independientes-de-2018/ “...de los grupos de electores y postulación de candidatos por iniciativa propia fue completamente excluida del primer Cronograma Electoral...” In English: “...The information regarding the formation of the groups of voters and the postulation of candidates on their own initiative was completely excluded from the first Electoral Schedule...” https://oevenezolano.org/2018/02/el-cne-organiza-unas-presidenciales-chucutas/ “...Para las elecciones presidenciales de 2018, el árbitro electoral eliminó del cronograma actividades relacionadas al catastro, simulacro, uso de la tinta indeleble, observación nacional y acompañamiento internacional e, incluso, dejó por fuera las postulaciones de grupos de electores e iniciativa propia...” In English: “...For the 2018 presidential elections, the electoral council eliminated from the schedule activities related to the cadastre, simulation, use of indelible ink, national observation and international accompaniment and, even, they excluded the postulations of a group people...” Also, for this and other reasons more than 50 countries were unable to recognize the Presidential elections of 2018, rejecting the results and referring to Maduro as Dictator after going forward with the process and finally the CNE declaring him as winner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election So, there is no mention of Zamora or the full list of independent candidates by the National Electoral Council like the official press release of 2012. However, in this link published at Zamora’s website you can find the official document stamped and signed by the CNE validating that he also ran for President in 2018. http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/CNE_2.jpg Johnjmuller (talk) 04:06, 1 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Now, it’s up to you to consider that it was a rigged election and the limited available information (although we are lucky to have the official document signed by the National Electoral Council validating that he ran for President in 2018). You can include inside the article that he ran two times for President or, Just one, (although the true fact is that he ran for President two times) So, we can finally go to next item #2 Thank you! Johnjmuller (talk) 04:32, 1 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: TL;DR. What's the independent source stating he ran in 2018? Or are we going by filing forms on his website again? —C.Fred (talk) 16:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: About you TL;DR You still need to read my previous messages to understand why it’s only available this official document. As I have said previously, you have to consider that after the 2012 election, Chavez won but Maduro was President after Chavez died the same year, and since 2013, the human rights situation and crisis of Venezuela has been worst, especially about free speech, so a group of Presidential candidates trying to run for President against Maduro in 2018 were silenced and excluded of the official press release given by the National Electoral Council of Venezuela with the full list of Candidates running for President in 2018. The fact about this was reported by an organization called “Electoral Venezuelan Observatory” (OEV) and the link to the source of this independent report was posted in my previous messages. For this reason, Zamora and other group of candidates running for President were not named in the first schedule with the official press release given by the National Electoral Council of Venezuela, and other candidates retired from that election after more than 50 countries declared that they were not going to recognize the elections of 2018 (probably Zamora decided to retire after that too, although if he decided to quit along with another group of candidates who made the same, it’s does not change the true fact that he ran for President in 2018 too). I know that the use of primary sources is limited but here is a valid and documented fact by other independent sources. Also, it’s not any document or filling form. It’s an official document stamped and signed by the National Electoral Council of Venezuela certifying that he ran for President in 2018 too. http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/CNE_2.jpg Johnjmuller (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2021 (UTC)  Done Added sentence about presidential runs. —C.Fred (talk) 19:32, 1 May 2021 (UTC) Call him politician in intro? I drew the comparison to Kanye West about being called a politician in the intro. West is called one, but there's a long section about his political activities. With one sentence about Zamora's nominations/runs for president, should he be called a politician in the intro sentence? —C.Fred (talk) 19:32, 1 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Of course - it’s obvious. 1000%. He must be called Politician in the intro too. No need to ask. This simple fact turns him into a politician too. He ran for President of a country. It’s not just any political position. It’s the highest political rank available. Same thing like a GRAMMY Award or nomination - it’s considered the highest recognition of music - something very relevant - you can’t make music and being nominated for a GRAMMY without being called Musician... So, you can’t run for President of a country without being called Politician too. Johnjmuller (talk) 20:27, 1 May 2021 (UTC) Has he ever been elected to a political office? There are no sources supporting any such claim, nor indeed any source discussing any political activity beyond his registering himself as a candidate for the presidential election – so we can't say he is a politician. --bonadea contributions talk 20:58, 1 May 2021 (UTC) @Bonadea: You don’t need to be elected to a political office to be called Politician. And, The political activity is already here. He was a presidential candidate two times. No rocket science. Johnjmuller (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2021 (UTC) By the way, Pianist, composer and writer must be also added to the intro since these are his best known talents too. Johnjmuller (talk) 21:29, 1 May 2021 (UTC) Waiting for @C.Fred: to take a decision about these minor edits to start with item #2 p.s, No worries about the size of this huge list. The next 26 items would be re-added faster (probably in groups of 2 or 3) since there are independent and very solid references easier to verify. Johnjmuller (talk) 01:25, 2 May 2021 (UTC) There's not a clear consensus on adding "politician"; if anything, there's a lean against it. —C.Fred (talk) 01:39, 2 May 2021 (UTC) Ok, There are my 2 cents: Don’t drown in a water cup. As I said, No rocket science. It’s as clear as water. So, I will make it easier for you to take a decision. After that you read this short definition you will add quickly the word “Politician” to the article. Trust in me. Now, Here is a definition of “Politician” from Wikipedia: “...A politician is a person active in party politics, or a person holding or seeking an elected seat in government...” “...Broadly speaking, a "politician" can be anyone who seeks to achieve political power in any bureaucratic institution...” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician Here is another definition from dictionary.com Politician: “...a seeker or holder of public office...” https://www.dictionary.com/browse/politician And from the Oxford dictionary: “...a person who is involved in politics, especially as a holder of or a candidate for an elected office...” So, as you can see, -and to simple view- the term “Politician” is backed and full supported by legal definition to be included inside the article. —- Note: I think that we need to consider who is leaning against something next time since that it is being very constant and repeated from the same person who wiped out these 27 items, objecting every little thing, even these minor edits. Johnjmuller (talk) 03:25, 2 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: Please focus on whether material meets the guidelines and policies of Wikipedia; do not cast aspersions about other editors. —C.Fred (talk) 03:29, 2 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Ok, I will do. Now, it is up to you to take the right decision. I’ve already explained why hot water is hot... and cold water cold... And also why I am sure that 1 + 1 = 2 Johnjmuller (talk) 04:13, 2 May 2021 (UTC) Well, looking at dictionary definitions is one part of defining the concept. It is, however, crucial to look at the entire definition: the Oxford Dictionary definition is "A person who is professionally involved in politics, especially as a holder of or a candidate for an elected office." (note the word "professionally", which is missing in the quote above). The partially quoted definition from dictionary.com (which is one of the multiple definitions there) is "a seeker or holder of public office, who is more concerned about winning favor or retaining power than about maintaining principles." – that is to say, the insulting use of the term. That would not be appropriate, since Wikipedia's business is neither to praise nor to disparage people. The crucial thing is that none of the sources that discuss Zamora refers to him as a politician, and we don't have anything that mentions any political activity beyond registering as a candidate. Even if we accept that a person can be a politician without ever holding a political office or working in politics in any way (which is not how the word is normally used, but let's accept it for the sake of discussion), MOS:OPENPARABIO specifies that the opening paragraph should include "One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person held, avoiding subjective or contentious terms." and/or "The main reason the person is notable (key accomplishment, record, etc.)" Zamora's political activity is not a "noteworthy position, activity, or role", unless it has been discussed in secondary sources, and the reason he is notable is his Grammy nominations. --bonadea contributions talk 10:38, 2 May 2021 (UTC) @Bonadea: I strongly disagree with “your concept” about the definition of Politician, for the following reason: The definition from many prestigious dictionaries, even the definition @Wikipedia clearly states that “Broadly speaking, a "politician" can be anyone who seeks to achieve political power in any government” So, we can’t end accepting this fact only “for the sake of this discussion”. 1 + 1 = 2 And, Fortunately, at the end of the road you gave me the reason and accepted the inclusion of the word. @C.Fred: As you can see, the leaning against it by @Bonadea: was changed to approve the word “Politician” inside the article. However, when I referred to include the word politician in the intro I don’t wanted to mean at the top / start of the intro since of course he is mostly notable for music / and his multiple Grammy nominations. The word “Politician” can be added as it was originally in the article listing all his talents inside the frame right below his picture and at the middle or end of the intro. Finally, the current term “Musician” at the start / top intro sounds very general - and he is mostly notable for being “Pianist” and “Composer” - even his Wikipedia URL contains the word “Pianist”. Johnjmuller (talk) 18:51, 2 May 2021 (UTC) No, I did not agree that the article should use the word "politician" to describe him. Please do not bludgeon the discussion. Thank you. --bonadea contributions talk 19:02, 2 May 2021 (UTC) Ok, Im going forward with next item. (I will skip item #2 while looking for more independent references) Item #3 - Virtuoso 3. A virtuoso “maestro” and prolific composer who has received multiple international recognitions from prestigious awards, public figures and personalities around the world. @C.Fred: For inclusion again / written in different style to comply with Wikipedia guidelines: “Zamora has been described as a prolific and virtuoso pianist” The review was made by Jason Birchmeier (Allmusic.com) Link of reference: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/zamora-mn0002451836/ Johnjmuller (talk) 20:03, 2 May 2021 (UTC) Oppose. "Virutoso" in this usage is puffery; there is no clear definition. The cited source mentions no awards that he won, only Grammy nominations. —C.Fred (talk) 20:29, 2 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: You have to consider all his impressive and outstanding lifetime achievements: 1. Zamora has composed more than 100 instrumental and piano songs (He has released more than 10 albums with 10 different songs each one) 2. He has been nominated two-times @The GRAMMYs - best known as the most important and prestigious music award around the world. Also, 3. You have to consider the reviewer (Jason Birchmeier): He is a well known, prestigious and respected longtime famous music critic @Allmusic.com Johnjmuller (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: The Grammy nominations speak for themselves. They don't need puffed up. —C.Fred (talk) 22:27, 2 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Great! - The line for inclusion also includes the word “Prolific” - an obvious term to describe him after having composed more than 100 instrumental and piano songs. Link of reference to his more than 10 albums with 10 different songs each one = more than 100 songs: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/disco/disco.htm Johnjmuller (talk) 22:45, 2 May 2021 (UTC) Other songwriters with similar or greater levels of output aren't described as prolific. —C.Fred (talk) 00:02, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Ok, I’m going forward with next item. Item #4 - Writer (already restored) I have checked and it has been already restored. “Writer” is listed at the right frame below his picture So, I’m moving forward with next item Johnjmuller (talk) 01:31, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Item #5 (Los Angeles - Venezuela) and Item #6 (Politician) Item #5 - (He lives in Los Angeles and Venezuela) - Already listed / differently. Item #6 (Politician) - Already discussed Moving forward to next item Johnjmuller (talk) 01:56, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Item #7 - GRAMMY Awards / Red Carpet arrival in a DeLoran /w King outfit Zamora’s arrival to the red carpet of The GRAMMYs in a DeLorean dressed as King Picture already published Moving forward with item #8 Johnjmuller (talk) 02:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Item #8 - 53rd GRAMMY / Nominated with Kitaro 8. Zamora was nominated @The GRAMMYs (2010) in the same category along with legendary artist “Kitaro” and this important and relevant fact was removed too. Link of reference: List of GRAMMY Nominees - New Age category (2010) http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/full_bio/53_GRAMMY.pdf @C.Fred: FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION - to include again item #8 and #9 inside the article - Thank you Johnjmuller (talk) Oppose. No need to list who else was nominated in the category. —C.Fred (talk) 10:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: To get a GRAMMY nomination with Kitaro in New Age category is something so legendary and relevant that it’s like being nominated in the same category along with The Beatles or Paul McCartney. Also, this fact was reported in “a full page” (printed edition) in the oldest and most popular major Venezuelan newspaper called EL UNIVERSAL as Zamora was “the only artist from Venezuela” nominated in 2010 too.(more than 20 years later after the last artist from Venezuela was nominated around 1990). Johnjmuller (talk) 15:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Item #9 - 54th GRAMMY / Nominated with Pat Metheny 9. Zamora also was nominated @The GRAMMYs (2011) in the same category along with legendary artist “Pat Metheny” and this important and relevant fact was removed too. List of GRAMMY Nominees - New Age category (2011) Link of reference: http://alejandrozamora.com/www_eng/bio/full_bio/54_GRAMMY.pdf @C.Fred: FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION - to include again item #8 and #9 inside the article - Thank you Johnjmuller (talk) 03:05, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Oppose, same as above. —C.Fred (talk) 11:00, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: You have to consider that its very relevant to get a GRAMMY nomination along with a legend. Pet Metheny is not any artist. Also, the chances to get a GRAMMY nomination in the same category along with a legend like Pet Metheny who has a world record for being nominated more than 40 times and who has won more than 20 GRAMMYs, is something very relevant and for some artists is perhaps an opportunity that happens “once-in-a-lifetime”. Johnjmuller (talk) 14:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC) No, it is not relevant to this article. Any reader can click on the link to the article about the 2011 Grammys and see who else was nominated – that information does not belong here. --bonadea contributions talk 14:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @Bonadea: This clickable reference is only a simple category list of the 2011 nominees from GRAMMY.com Johnjmuller (talk) 15:17, 3 May 2021 (UTC) I've refined the links with anchors to the New Age section of the 2010 and 2011 Grammy Awards articles. That will get readers right to the category and other nominees; they can always scroll back up to read the full articles. —C.Fred (talk) 18:05, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Item #10 - 54th GRAMMY / Nominated with Dudamel - LA Phil Conductor 10. Zamora was also nominated to the GRAMMY® Awards the same year along with the famous Venezuelan conductor of Los Angeles Philharmonic "Gustavo Dudamel" representing his native country Link of reference: http://www.keeprockingvenezuela.com/los-amigos-invisibles-la-vida-boheme-gustavo-dudamel-y-alejandro-zamora-nominados-a-los-grammys-americanos/ Johnjmuller (talk) 02:39, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION - to include this new item #9 inside the article - Thank you Johnjmuller (talk) 03:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Comment. Reading the cited article, four Venezuelan acts were nominated that year, so it's not like Venezuelans get nominated so rarely that it's worth mentioning. —C.Fred (talk) 11:05, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Not true. The last artist from Venezuela who was nominated before Zamora in 2010 had been nominated more than 20 years ago (Maria Conchita Alonso). After that, “the only artist from Venezuela” being nominated for a GRAMMY was Zamora in 2010. And 10 years later after this exceptional and rare case in 2011 of 4 Venezuelans in 2011 (Zamora again along with Dudamel and 2 rock bands) only Dudamel has been nominated again. Also, in 2010 Zamora was featured in a “full page” (printed edition) at the oldest and most popular major newspaper of Venezuela called EL UNIVERSAL, stating this very relevant fact. And to get a nomination along with Dudamel, was a fact heavily reported in Venezuela news and around the world in 2011. Also, you have to consider that Venezuela is a relative small country in comparison with USA (like just the size of one US state). So, it was very relevant, specially for Venezuela and in this particular case, it’s perhaps an opportunity that happens for the country 1 time every 20 years as it happened from 1990 until Zamora was the only artist from Venezuela nominated for a GRAMMY in 2010. Johnjmuller (talk) 14:47, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: What independent source says that Venezuela had a 20 year drought? —C.Fred (talk) 18:03, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Forgive my mistake. Zamora was the only and first Venezuelan nominated for a GRAMMY Award in 2010. The full page article (printed & online edition) about him published at the older and most popular major Venezuelan newspaper EL UNIVERSAL confirms that. Maria Conchita Alonso born in Cuba. There are other Venezuelans who have been nominated in a relatively new and special regional award called Latin GRAMMYs but it’s a different thing. “...Es algo histórico estar nominado a los premios Grammy, es como estar en una final de las grandes ligas del béisbol profesional", señala el músico y añade: "Es un gran honor ser el único y primer venezolano nominado en esta edición y categoría de los premios Grammy. Además, me siento muy orgulloso de ser pionero en Venezuela de este género musical...” “...It is something historic to be nominated for the Grammy Awards, it is like being in a final of the major leagues of professional baseball, "says the musician and adds:" It is a great honor to be the only and first Venezuelan nominated in this edition and category of the Grammy awards. In addition, I am very proud to be a pioneer in Venezuela of this musical genre. " Link of reference: https://web.archive.org/web/20160305043442/http:/www.eluniversal.com/2010/12/23/til_art_el-new-age-de-un-ven_2142436 Johnjmuller (talk) 19:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: I'm reluctant to use that source, because the comment about being the first Venezuelan nominated is in a direct quotation from Zamora. —C.Fred (talk) 19:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC) IMHO, regardless who said it at the interview, it was published by a major newspaper. So, at the end of the road its a true fact, and it’s something very very relevant, especially for Venezuela. We are speaking now after more than 50 years (2010 = 53rd GRAMMYs = 53 years)... Finally, I think that one of the premises of Wikipedia is to have important and relevant facts like this about an artist, not to have only an article with 3 lines mentioning only recognitions from the Grammys. Johnjmuller (talk) 20:08, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: Is it? How do we know they vetted the statement? —C.Fred (talk) 20:13, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred:EL UNIVERSAL is a major newspaper like the “New York Times”. The interview was made by a prestigious, respected and well known Venezuelan news reporter specialized in Arts & Music. Johnjmuller (talk) 20:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC) Unless an independent source (not an interview) has written about him being the first Venezuelan to be nominated in the Best New Age Album category, I do not see how that is relevant information. Just because something is true, it does not follow that it is important or relevant enough for an encyclopedia article. --bonadea contributions talk 20:35, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @Bonadea: Can you show me a link with this specific guideline for inclusion from Wikipedia stating that ? “...Unless an independent source (not an interview) has written about...” Johnjmuller (talk) 20:48, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: WP:PRIMARY is the relevant guideline. At best, the interview is a primary source; I don't see any indication that Zamora is an expert on the history of the Grammys. —C.Fred (talk) 20:56, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred:My two cents: Regardless if it’s primary, secondary or <insert most reliable source here> or if Zamora has a or not knowledge about the Grammys (however, he is a musician) it was said through a major Venezuelan news media equivalent to CNN or The New York Times that cares to review the content before publishing a major article like this. So, the requirement and heart of this matter for inclusion of this relevant event is already here. As I’ve said, at the end of the road, he said a true fact - verifiable by all means. Johnjmuller (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @Johnjmuller: If it were relevant, we would be able to verify it with something other than a quotation from a related party. —C.Fred (talk) 21:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: My last two cents here: For sure it is something very relevant, specially for Venezuela. You can’t appreciate through the online edition the real magnitud /importance of this event and the huge size of this full page published in the physical edition of this newspaper printed first page in front of the face of people walking the streets around all states of Venezuela. Also, you are missing the point of your initial question of this section when you was only asking for a source to verity that it took 20 years to Venezuela to see the first Venezuelan getting a GRAMMY nomination and now you have the source from this major newspaper -verifiable by all means- that it took more than 50 years to Venezuela to wait for Zamora to be the first Venezuelan being nominated for a GRAMMY. Additionally, the request for inclusion in this section was about Zamora being nominated along with the Los Angeles Philharmonic conductor, Gustavo Dudamel who is Venezuelan too and they represented his native country along with 2 rock bands (in a new very rare and exceptional case after 50 years as you can see) So, nevertheless you have to consider the importance that it represents for an artist to get nominated along with other famous musician or with a legend like Kitaro, Pat Metheny or Paul McCartney. Finally, as I said, these important and relevant events should to be included if one of the premises of Wikipedia is to have important and relevant facts like this about an artist, not to have only an article with 3 lines mentioning only recognitions from the Grammys. Also, all these relevant events together adds a great importance to be ignored and not included @Wilipedia, since I’ve seen less relevant events and with less important sources that have been included and still remains for years @Wikipedia. Finally, here are the basic requirements for inclusion——- So, it’s up to you to include any of these relevant events or not @Wikipedia. p,s, And as you told me, at the end of the day we can improve the article about Zamora with any of these items (8, 9 or 10, including being the First Venezuelan to get A GRAMMY nomination, even in New Age category too) after this long chat / discussion— so that readers can have more information to read about the artist, since the current article is frankly very short considering the impressive and huge list of achievements obtained by Zamora. Johnjmuller (talk) 22:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred: Note: It’s my final comment about this to avoid bludgeoning - So, please re-read with calm and take your decision. Johnjmuller (talk) Well, there is a reason that it is very short – there are virtually no independent sources, and the only reason he passes Wikipedia's notability criteria is the Grammy nominations. By the way, the statement it took more than 50 years to Venezuela to wait for Zamora to be the first Venezuelan being nominated for a GRAMMY is misleading in a couple of ways. Grammy nominations are not given to nations, and the nominees don't represent countries – and Zamora was not the first Venezuelan to be nominated for a Grammy. He was quite possibly the first Venezuelan to be nominated in that category, 24 years after it was first awarded, but we don't have a secondary source for that, and even if he had been interviewed by The Guardian and New York Times and the BBC together, the interview would still be a primary source. One principle to keep in mind is that Wikipedia is not really interested in what a person (or an organisation) has to say about themselves, only in what other people have said about them. Primary sources can be used in some limited ways, but not for this kind of content. This is an important thing to remember if you want to propose other additions to the article sourced to Zamora's own website or other primary sources. --bonadea contributions talk 11:02, 4 May 2021 (UTC)