Talk:White Christmas (song)

Martha Mears

In the article it mentions Bing Crosby singing the song with Marjorie Reynolds in Holiday Inn. While she was the actress, her singing was dubbed by Martha Mears, I've already altered the article to this end. However, it seems there is no article for Martha Mears, who actually dubbed a number of actresses in a number of popular movies, an article should be made for her.

Atheist dislike

"Also atheists also happen to dislike the song due to its relation to Christianity." Is this really neccessary? Could it not be said about anything Christmas related, Christmas is based in Christianity I do believe. I suggest this be removed, it just seems to not belong in such a reference as wikipedia. If we could find a verifiable quote, specifically about 'White Christmas', MAYBE it could remain. It is poorly written and reads like gossip.

Or we could add such disclaimers to all articles: "'The Star-Spangled Banner' is disliked by North Koreans due to its relation to the United States." Seems silly, but that is what the line in the article sounds like to me. --BarenakedKevin 20:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

Tagged it. There's no cite and it seems to have POV problems; it might also not be notable enough for inclusion. WindAndConfusion 14:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm an atheist and this is one of my favorite songs. I sing every year at Christmas, along with "I'll be home for Christmas," and "The Christmas Song." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.13.188 (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I always thought Jews and atheists liked the song because it's NOT Christian. There you go! Santamoly (talk) 05:34, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Timing

Was not this song written on an anniversary of his son's death? His son died on a Christmas day. Cema 01:42, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The song may be about Christmas, but that's no guarantee that the song was written on Christmas Day. -- Ventura 20:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Lyrics

I just removed the lyrics from the article. Irving Berlin has not been dead long enough for the US copyright to have expired. The lyrics should not be restored until we can document permission from the copyright holders. -- Ventura 20:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I've never understood a position like yours on items like this since the lyrics are freely available at hundreds of websites. And if anyone needs to assert control they can simply remove them from WP - just as you have done. The objective of copyright is to maintain PUBLIC access to creative works, not to restrict access as if the lyrics were private property. The creators are granted control for a limited time, but the lyrics actually belong to the world. Santamoly (talk) 05:57, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Then you understand practically nothing about copyright or intellectual property, Santamoly. Just because a lot of people steal doesn't mean that it's right to steal, contrary to what the Internet Generation would like to believe. After all, without theft, their smartphones would be SO much less worthwhile! 67.180.19.160 (talk) 16:42, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Trivia

On November 26, user Jeff Fries removed the Trivia section with the fact "Irving Berlin was Jewish," stating that this information is already included in the Irving Berlin article. There are innumerable facts repeated between articles on Wikipedia, and this is in many cases appropriate. It is quite noteworthy that a Christmas song of such prominence was written by a Jew, and this is a fact which a reader should be able to glean from Wikipedia without navigating to the Irving Berlin Article. --Andy M. 02:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Then I recommend working that observation into the main article. As it is, it's a bluntly-worded tidbit tacked awkwardly onto the bottom. It looks and feels out of place. Unless you can fit the noteworthiness of a jewish person's writing a popular Christmas song organically into the rest of the piece, then someone else is just going to come along and remove it. --Jeff Fries 09:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I incorporated the fact into the article and removed the "trivia" section. Berlin apparently struggled with writing a Christmas song, the first reason being that he didn't celebrate Christmas, the second (according to a book written on the song) that he lost his infant son in December. I thought it was worth noting at least that the first approach he tried was more of a parody--a Hollywood type who has everything but still dreams about snow. This Guardian newspaper article has more about the book and the story. Lindmere 16:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice addition, thanks Lindmere. --Andy M. 01:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

By chance, I heard the full version recently at a choral recital. The first verse does give it a much more light-hearted feel, and it was interesting to hear it performed. As usual, though, Berlin's instincts were golden. Lindmere 22:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's an odd piece of trivia. For some reason, and I don't know why, Irving Berlin refused to allow the lyrics of "White Christmas" to be published on lyric sheets included with LPs. No album released before his death that I have encountered includes the lyrics to "White Christmas," even if the lyrics to every other song is included (including those still under copyright). Sometimes they are simply omitted; other times, some sort of comment is included such as "You know the words" or some such (I'd have to dig into my LP collection for specific examples). The first time I can remember seeing the words to "White Christmas" included with the lyrics of an album were not until 1993, on Garth Brooks' Beyond the Season Cheemo 02:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

boxer

any truth to the story about berlin being inspired by the story of a blind filipino-american boxer named felix destrito(sp?)? he tried to sell his dog queenie to pay for his child's medicine... the proceeds of the song payed for the treatment, he didn't have to sell the dog...

No, not in regarding this song. He wrote this song because a movie he was working on (Holiday Inn required a song for every holiday. --Sicamous 15:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Other recordings

That (enormous) list needs to be put into some sort of order, preferably alphabetical or chronological. Any comments or protestations? 64.90.198.6 00:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't there a Guns N' Roses recording as well?

I have a version from KEANE. It was recorded on a BBC radio show(Marianoherreroa 05:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC))

I think it needs to be gutted or removed. I could add n Christmas albums which have White Christmas that are not listed there . Really, it's been a staple of Xmas songs repertoire for decades, it's silly to list various performances, no one will read through it. Maybe a few particularly notable recordings can be listed (properly referenced), but otherwise it's just an indiscriminate list, and does not follow the wiki guidelines.--Boffob (talk) 06:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree there is no inclusion criteria and it has been covered thousands of times the list will just grow endlessly. 71.0.173.144 (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I cleaned up the list of "Other recordings" a couple of weeks ago by placing the songs in chronological order, but also added in all versions of the song that have charted on the various Billboard magazine music charts since the song was first recorded in 1942 (that is, that weren't already listed when I came upon the article). I don't think this section should be removed at all. Some recorded versions of the song hit the Billboard charts, but it's a small percentage of all the versions that have been recorded since 1942. At minimum, the charted versions of "White Christmas" should be listed in this section. --Sliv812 (talk) 01:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

400 MILLION???

I am calling foul on that number. It is uncited (I've added the tag) and sounds way too exaggerated. Even Guinness only gave it about 25-30 million. And it is no longer listed by them as Candle in the Wind passed it, and that only sold about 35 million. Where does that number come from??? 68.146.81.123 (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You put that figure in yourself didn't you68. The Guinness book still lists White Christmas as No.1. Candle has not passed it and probably never will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.45.69 (talk) 14:21, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Who earns the royalties?

Who earns on record sales of this record these days? Do earnings belong to the estate of the songwriter and/or the performer? Thanks. --TraceyR (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC),

I think a college in northern New York State owns the rights to the song... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.26.40.217 (talk) 15:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Operation Frequent Wind

I think mention should be made that "White Christmas" was the song played as the code for the evacuation of Saigon April 29-30 (Operation Frequent Wind) in the Vietnam War. It's a fitting cap for the end of the Vietnam War. I don't know if it was the Bing Crosby version.71.154.158.137 (talk) 19:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the Solfege?

Does anyone know the Solfege syllables for White Christmas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.156.101.3 (talk) 02:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:White Christmas - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 03:00, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

1942 recording

Moved from Template talk:Help me/doc

Dear Wikipedia. This may seem trivial but . . . Regarding Bing Crosby's recordings of White Christmas, it has for so long been rumoured that the 1942 'take' was damaged, hence the need for the 1947 re-recording. The rumour has taken hold so well that it now appears in Wikipedia. How can I prove this to be wrong? The 1947 recording has appeared on all subsequent reissues and, as stated, is the one commonly heard nowadays. In fact the 1942 recording (DLA.3009) was still available on 78 rpm in Britain until the late-1950s - I can provide a scan of the label if requested, which bears a datable purchase tax code. When Decca issued the song on 45 rpm about October 1954, the label bore the same 1942 matrix no. but the track was substituted. Again, for evidence, I can provide a scan of the 1954 disc (with wide centre, which dates the pressing). For further evidence that the master didn't get worn out with so many pressings, I can show that the 1942 recording on the flipside was still available up to about 1967 on Brunswick. (When re-issued on MCA in Britain in 1969 a different song appeared on the flipside.) I would love to see this error amended and rumour scotched in such an authoritative body as Wikipedia! Thank you for your help. 81.151.177.72 (talk) 18:24, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement about Irving Berlin's beliefs

In the "Bing Crosby version" section, it is pointed out that this song, as well as "God Bless America", was composed by a Jewish composer, to show how secular Christmas songs could be successful. I think it is more noteworthy to mention that Irving Berlin was in fact an agnostic, to show the supposed contradiction in him writing such songs. A Jew would not necessarily have a problem to write a song with the word "God" in it.

But the word "Christmas" might be problematic for a Jew. It does have "Christ" right there in it. --Khajidha (talk) 11:38, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

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Citation added, request quote

Lebrsm, the citation that you added for The Drifters rendition of this song can be heard in the films Home Alone and The Santa Clause doesn't sound likely to support that sentence. Could you quote the sentence or paragraph from the article "Jubilee! Historic Columbia celebrates African-American heritage this weekend with singing, art, dance, drama" in The Times and Democrat (Aug 26, 2004) that supports the information in the article? Thanks! Schazjmd (talk) 21:20, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I've added a URL for the article "Jubilee!" to the citation -- Lebrsm (talk) 14:40, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I just saw that, Lebrsm. Thanks, I had no luck finding the article online myself. And it's a good source for that claim. I appreciate you adding the citation. Schazjmd (talk) 17:14, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Was "White Christmas" the first commercially successful secular Christmas song?

The article states that the song "established that there could be commercially successful secular Christmas songs..." I'm not sure how accurate this is. "Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town" came out in 1934, eight years before "White Christmas," and I believe it would also be considered a commercially successful secular Christmas song. According to one source, "Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town" sold more than thirty thousand records and a hundred thousand copies of sheet music within 24 hours of its radio debut. --Lebrsm (talk) 14:32, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Source isn't claiming it was the first, they're saying its success launched a new genre. I suspect Santa Claus is Coming to Town was considered a novelty song, and we have no source claiming its success influenced other composers. The folks in the NPR interview claim "But the whole idea of secular Christmas songs really didn't exist before Berlin. No one was actually dreaming of white Christmases before him. Composers and publishers thought, why write a Christmas song? They will only play it once a year. But, in fact, the success of this actually launched a whole genre of secular Christmas songs. And all of a sudden, we invented an American Christmas based on a mythic golden past that never existed in this rural New England that came purely out of his imagination." Schazjmd (talk) 15:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

What does the source say about it being the first? Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:45, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Neither the source nor the article claim it was the first secular Christmas song. Schazjmd (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

You're talking past the actual statements. The content in the article reads,

"The song established that there could be commercially successful secular Christmas songs<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/no-one-dreamed-of-a-white-christmas-before-this-song/|title=No one dreamed of a 'White Christmas' before this song|website=PBS NewsHour|access-date=January 16, 2018}}</ref>—in this case, written by a Jewish-American songwriter."

So why are you claiming it's the "first" of anything? "First" is just not in the article nor is it in the source. What the source, https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/no-one-dreamed-of-a-white-christmas-before-this-song, does say is,

"Composers and publishers thought, why write a Christmas song? They will only play it once a year. But, in fact, the success of this actually launched a whole genre of secular Christmas songs. And all of a sudden, we invented an American Christmas based on a mythic golden past that never existed in this rural New England that came purely out of his imagination."

The source—and subsequently the article—doesn't make the claim that people did not write commercial Christmas (or holiday) songs before this.

The source—and subsequently the article—doesn't say that there were not successful Christmas (or holiday) songs before this.

The source—and subsequently the article—does say that a sub-industry around Christmas (or holiday) songs was considered commercially viable. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I've reviewed the source again. It said that "...the whole idea of secular Christmas songs really didn't exist before Berlin." I find that very misleading. Perhaps the earlier secular Christmas songs did not have the same widespread influence as "White Christmas." Nevertheless, based on the source and the article, it is easy to infer that "White Christmas" was the first secular Christmas song to have any commercial success. --Lebrsm (talk) 21:22, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

It appears to be misleading yes. Do we have anything close to that statement here? However, with the conditional statement of "really", I can see how they might wiggle out of that. We can't help what individuals infer when they read a clear and well-sourced statement. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Date Inconsistency

The lede says ""White Christmas" is a 1942 Irving Berlin song ...", but the Bing Crosby Version section says "The first public performance of the song was by Bing Crosby, on his NBC radio show The Kraft Music Hall on Christmas Day, 1941...".

If the song was performed a year before it was written, that's a pretty neat trick, but probably requires some explanation in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 00:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Good point. Fixed it. Schazjmd (talk) 00:48, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Musicology of the song

I wish someone with sufficient expertise would discuss the musicology of the song. I seem to recall hearing that the song is written in a minor key, the key of mourning. It is a bittersweet song as it recalls a time past and looks to a time present and a time future. And isn't that so much of what Christmas is about, a time to reflect on people (loved ones) who have passed on and a time to enjoy the joys of children opening presents? It is one of the most "metaphysical" songs of the season. I might add, many songs of the Christmas season are tinged with profound sadness, 'I heard the bells on Christmas Eve" as one example.StevenTorrey (talk) 15:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

sales details

plucked from another Bing book, Swinging on a Star: The War Years, 1940-1946

I collect sales numbers

It sold six hundred thousand discs in the closing months of 1942 (Bing’s royalties came to $298,946, $4.4 million in today’s dollars)

and two million as of 1944.

Sales mounted year after year as it hit the number one spot again in 1945 and 1946, uniquely returning to the top thirty every year but one between its release and Christmas of 1962. By then, the record’s sales exceeded twenty-five million, the bestselling record ever.

In 2007, the Guinness Book of Records updated the number to fifty million, seventeen million more than Elton John’s “Candle in the Wind,” in second place, and twenty million more than Bing’s “Silent Night,” in third.

Guinness numbers do not include Crosby LPs and CDs (his 1949 album Merry Christmas has never been out of print); their numbers registered only singles of his 1942 original and an almost indistinguishable 1947 remake.

I want to add sentence with the early sales info, leave the 50 mil alone

Tillywilly17 (talk) 09:21, 23 April 2022 (UTC)