Talk:We South Tyroleans

arbitrary translation

There's no reference for the use of "We South Tyroleans" in english texts. We should not invent arbitrary translations for proper nouns.--Sajoch (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

In en.Wiki we usually use English translation for each and every party. All South Tyrolean parties have their names translated and I don't see why this should be the exception. In my talk page you told me that I "should at least discuss it with others" and that "Wikipedia is not a one-man-show". I always discuss with others and I would love to see you and other users working on these pages (unfortunately few users have time for Italian politics, let alone South Tyrolean one).

I created the article as "We South Tyroleans" and I think that is the best title for consistency with similar pages and WP:UE.

You did changes without consulting anyone, not me. I will be very happy to discuss with you and with anyone else, but the article should be moved back to its original title until a new consensus is reached. --Checco (talk) 12:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

No sorry, we don't. You did. You also moved, despite the majority was against the use of translations.--Sajoch (talk) 20:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The majority... what? Only you and me edited this talk page!

We once used to agree about South Tyrol's article naming: I don't understand why you are now so aggressive and insulting with me. Please stop lying (and please stop edit warring in other pages). You may disagree with me, but you can't offend me by saying false things.

You can easily see that more that virtually 100% of en.Wiki articles on parties from non-English speaking countries have English names: that's what we do in en.Wiki. Wir Südtiroler is easily translatable as We South Tyroleans, thus I don't see any problems with this title. --Checco (talk) 09:51, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm referring to all the proper nouns of south tyrolean political parties, you arbitrarily translated. We should not invent new names, but only reproduce what's out there.--Sajoch (talk) 12:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

English names for parties is a custom in en.Wiki. Indeed, South Tyrolean People's Party was started as South Tyrolese People's Party by User:Morwen on 8 January 2004 (and then moved to the current title by User:Olessi on 15 September 2006), Citizens' Union for South Tyrol was started as Union for South Tyrol by User:Wilfried Derksen on 10 May 2005, Greens (South Tyrol) was started as Greens of South Tyrol by User:Nightstallion on 11 April 2007, etc. I joined en.Wiki on 2 January 2006 and I adopted a custom, which is now applied to virtually 100% of the articles on parties. I believe We South Tyroleans is a literal and uncontroversial translation for Wir Südtiroler, but let's see what other users have to say. --Checco (talk) 14:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, it is a literal and direct translation and personally I don't see a problem with it.--Autospark (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Generally we should not invent translations for proper nouns. Unless there is a significant base of english sources already using an english translation, we should leave the name as it is. With the plethora of existing and past south tyrolean parties having "Freiheit" and/or "Südtirol" in their names, translations can only lead to misinterpretations - as has happened in the past. The names to be confused: "Die Freiheitlichen", "Freiheitliche Partei Südtirols", "Süd-Tiroler Freiheit", "Südtiroler Heimatbund", "Partei der Unabhängigen", "Union für Südtirol", "BürgerUnion für Südtirol", "Wir Südtiroler", "Scelta Civica per l'Alto Adige-Südtirol", "Tiroler Heimatpartei" and maybe more. The translation and meaning of the name shuold be explained in the incipit.--Sajoch (talk) 17:25, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I duly respect your opinion, but I disagree—and WP policy is with me and Autospark. --Checco (talk) 09:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

You may disagree, but you should not ignore, that it's 4:2 against you. There's a WP policy you apparently forgot: no original research. Your translations were pure original research.--Sajoch (talk) 22:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Three users spoke and there is no consensus – yet – on moving the article to your preferred title. That's why I rollbacked your recent move. Please abstain from moving pages without consensus. --Checco (talk) 20:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I was talking in general. For the article Die Freiheitlichen (where the discussion is similar to this one), 4 people suggested to leave the original name, 1 person was undecided, and you the only one insisting on an arbitrary translation. For your translations you have no majority. Also the name "Forza Italia" was not translated - so it's not true, that Wikipedia policy (which one?!?) forces us to invent translations. Wikipedia policy tells us to use english names, where those exist and are in common use, but never ever(!) to invent new ones. This translation in special is pure original research.--Sajoch (talk) 21:49, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

The two cases are different. Here we have an easy and uncontroversial translation. Moreover, it is not true that "4 people suggested to leave the original name, 1 person was undecided, and you the only one insisting on an arbitrary translation", but let's discuss about that in the proper talk. --Checco (talk) 06:34, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Even if the "undecided" person supports your POV, it's still 4:2 against you. You should respect Wikipedia policies and the overall consensus.--Sajoch (talk) 19:51, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no overall consensus! Please stop. --Checco (talk) 23:16, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I do not need your consensus to apply Wikipedia policies. Thanks.--Sajoch (talk) 09:15, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

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