Talk:Theresa Greenfield/Archive 1

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Draft article

There is a draft of the article at Draft:Theresa Greenfield. KidAd (talk) 03:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Edit request

Could an admin. please add the {{R with possibilities}} template within the Rcat shell? This will put the standard notification of the existence of the draft on the page itself, in addition to the talk page notification above. Also could the section target be changed to #General election, since Greenfield is the major-party nominee and we are in that phase? Thanks, UnitedStatesian (talk) 02:25, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 03:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: you added the rcat subtemplate, thanks; could you also change to section that is targeted, as I requested above? TIA, UnitedStatesian (talk) 04:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done updated to 2020_United_States_Senate_election_in_Iowa#General_election. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion on whether cited material should be included or excluded

@KidAd and Jackie.salzinger: I am opening a section as to why content cited by reliable sources such as NPR.org and the Des Moines Register should be included or excluded. Peaceray (talk) 16:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Being a self-identified farm kid is campaign WP:PUFF. Information about her (2018) campaign manager is not relevant to her article and reads like a news story (see WP:NOTNEWS). The line "If she wins the senate election she will be the first Democrat elected to the senate from Iowa since Tom Harkin retired in 2015" is incredible unnecessary. Being the first Democrat elected to Senate in five years is not noteworthy. And the "Stances on Issues" section is written like promotional material. KidAd talk 17:05, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@KidAd: If you don’t like the stances on issues section stop deleting other people’s work because it’s disrespectful and instead edit it so it DOSEN’T look like promotional material. We are all trying to help this article better. Please DON’T delete me and other people’s work and instead make it look better. That is what a Wikipeidian should be. User:AdamT777 User talk:AdamT777 17:19, 18 September (UTC)

Per WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." I suggest that you prioritize gaining consensus for your material over being offended. KidAd talk 17:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@KidAd and Jackie.salzinger: KidAd, please stop being DISRESPECTFUL to other users. I appreciate your work but suggesting me to not be offended is a rude thing to ask because you have no right over to how I feel. I believe Jackie.salzinger knows what she is doing. She has done research and I truly believe that her knowledge is vital for the growth of this article. KidAd, previously deleted my work and I thought it was important information for this article. Regardless, of my feelings he just deletes me and other people’s work with no remorse. I believe KidAd is a great editor but I find it disrespectful that he deletes other people’s work instead of making it better. Our goal as Wikipedians is to make each and every article beaming like a shining star. When you delete someone’s work instead of making it better it dosen’t help this article, but instead it makes it more bare and less closer to being a shining star. User:AdamT777 User talk:AdamT777 17:30, 18 September (UTC)

The material doesn't belong on the page because it has problems (that I have explained). That doesn't mean it can never be on the page. It just needs work. Jackie.salzinger should copy-and-paste the material into their sandbox and make the necessary changes before restoring it in the article. There is nothing disrespectful about that. KidAd talk 17:38, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

KidAd, as an experienced editor, I would expect you always to provide an edit summary when you initially revert. Furthermore, in adherence to the WP:BRD & dealing with a brand new editor, you should have either guided Jackie.salzinger to open a discussion here on the talk page or opened one yourself & invited that editor. Simply stating Gain consensus for this material per WP:ONUS is hardly instructive on how to gain consensus. Please see WP:NEWBIES. Peaceray (talk) 18:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Noted. At the time of my first revert, I was editing on my phone late at night. My reasoning for the revert can be found above. So far, Jackie.salzinger has not participated in this discussion. When/if they decide to make an appearance, I would he happy to discuss the problematic nature of their edits and changes that need to be made before the content is included in the article. KidAd talk 19:29, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - KidAd has done everything right, the onus to discuss, reach consensus, provide citations and understand guidelines is on those adding claims, not those who contest them. They have not been disrespectful or overly curt, they have followed guidelines. They are spot on in terms of verifiable content and campaign fluff, news style content etc...obviously. Bacondrum (talk) 02:32, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

This is not a further criticism of KidAd, who has noted my earlier comment & presumably has already adapted going forward, but rather a response to Bacondrum. I disagree with your assertion that we have "done everything right".

The WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, is an explanatory supplement to the Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Be bold policy that states When reverting, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary and use links if needed. This did not happen on the first reversion's edit summary. KidAd has stated that this was an oversight.

The Edit policy section Talking and editing states Discussion is called for, however, if you think the edit might be controversial or if someone indicates disagreement with your edit (either by reverting your edit and/or raising an issue on the talk page). It may be uncertain as to which editor should start this, but I will point out that of this time, Jackie.salzinger has about 31 edits. As such, the Please do not bite the newcomers behavioral guideline applies, & this new editor should have been directed to discuss any disagreement or contention on this talk page. A new editor getting an edit reverted without explanation then getting a second reversion that merely pushes them toward the Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion policy without direction on how to resolve an issue is clearly discouraging. I count it as a failure on our part that this editor has not returned to discuss the matter.

Yes, we may be correct about reverting this edit in term of editing policies, but I fear that we may have inadvertently violated policies & guidelines in our behavior towards a new editor.

Peaceray (talk) 16:35, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I think you’re worried about nothing Bacondrum (talk) 21:29, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, from your user page, I perceive you as someone who is clearly involved with social justice issues, I would ask you to consider whether in-group favoritism & elitism is inconsequential. I believe that working towards inclusion & retention of new editors is hardly "worried about nothing". The best practice for addressing anyone whose behavior that we want to change is education, not behavior that makes them feel excluded. Peaceray (talk) 18:28, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

What? Did you just accuse me of in-group favoritism & elitism? Why on earth are we talking about me? I ask you to retract that personal attack. Bacondrum (talk) 22:07, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I believe Peaceray is a nice person and I don’t think he meant to personally attack you, Bacondrum. (User:AdamT777) (talk) 23:43, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Accusing another editor of in-group favoritism & elitism without any evidence is a text book example of a personal attack. Discuss content, that's what we are here for, Peaceray really should know better. Bacondrum (talk) 01:15, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, you misconstrue my words. As I believe you are a social justice advocate, I was implying that working to eliminate in-group favoritism & elitism could be a natural extension of that. I was asking you to think about that, not accusing you. Peaceray (talk) 05:49, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Greenfield draft status

Hello fellow editors of the Theresa Greenfield draft. As I'm sure you have seen, draft articles on Greenfield have been declined several times, with two primary complaints: (1) "reads like a campaign flyer", and (2) doesn't establish notability. Do you think that the edits over the last week have eliminated the first issue? If so, that leaves us with notability. WP:NPOL says that candidates for office are not necessarily notable, but "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage" are "presumed to be notable." There seems to be a sentiment among Wikipedia editors (see here for some examples) that candidacy can never make someone notable, which I disagree with both on commonsense grounds and based on the wording of the official standard for politicians. My question for you is: should the article be submitted again for approval (or potentially for an AfD discussion if we think it will still be declined for notability) now that it has been improved? Thanks, Js2112 (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I will ping Muboshgu, an administrator and prolific editor of candidate pages. I believe his assessment of the draft would be useful if/when he has the time. As I have said before (most recently on my talk page), it makes the most sense to just wait another 39 (!!!) days until the election. KidAd talk 04:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I truly believe there is still work to be done. First, I think the section on issues may need to look less like a campaign flyer. Second, I think Theresa Greenfield has had some media attention but it also involves how she is doing in polls. If she is behind Ernst, I think we should wait until the election or if she is ahead of Ernst and projected to win than it’s about time to publish the article. 05:29, 25 September 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdamT777 (talk • contribs)

This source, "Election 2020 - Iowa Senate - Ernst vs. Greenfield". RealClearPolitics. 2020-09-19. Retrieved 2020-09-25., has the RCP Average of Greenfield +2.6% over Ernst. BTW, my typical personal standard for creating a biographical article is 10 or more reliable sources. This draft far exceeds it. Let's get the Wikification & copyedit done so we can move it into the article space. Peaceray (talk) 05:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I believe this article is in good enough shape to move into mainspace - definitely there's work that can be done, and we should keep working on it, but it doesn't have to be perfect before moving to mainspace. Because it has already met WP:GNG in my opinion, I don't believe it's necessary or helpful to wait. The key blocker is that Theresa Greenfield is protected, so we can't simply move it. At Talk:Theresa Greenfield#Notable I and other editors have asked User:Muboshgu to unprotect it, but no response yet. A helpful next step may be to file another deletion review for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Theresa Greenfield, with the justification under WP:DRVPURPOSE of #3 ("if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page") - not asking for the deleted article to be revived, just asking for the page to be unprotected so that we can move this draft. If somebody could file that review request today, that'd be great! I may be able to do it later, but don't wait up for me. Dreamyshade (talk) 16:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I do not agree with moving this draft into mainspace. There are many sources used, but lots of them do not confer notability on the subject. Like, this one, or this one, or this one. The biographical portion of this article is brief. The rest of it focuses on the election; Greenfield is not the subject of those articles, 2020 United States Senate election in Iowa is the subject. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

IMHO, that last explanation does not jibe with the notability guideline. As per Wikipedia:Notability (people), the basic criteria for notability is People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. I have not seen an explanation of how the multitude of sources fail to be intellectually independent, not secondary or tertiary, or not reliable. Given that, we must presume that Greenfield is notable. Peaceray (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with User:Peaceray: nowhere does it say the every source in an article must be intellectually independent and reliable; it only says there must be enough sources that are intellectually independent and reliable, such that notability is demonstrated. This draft now clearly exceeds that notability threshold by a significant margin. UnitedStatesian (talk) 21:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

As a demonstration of this, I reviewed the current draft and pulled out ten examples of significant coverage of Greenfield in multiple newspapers that are independent of each other. The coverage includes substantial details about her biography, her positions, her political career, and the impact of her work. Several regional newspapers:

• Noble, Jason (July 5, 2017). "Real estate executive Theresa Greenfield joins 3rd District race for Congress". The Des Moines Register. Retrieved August 24, 2020.
• Rynard, Pat (2018-02-03). "Long Hours, Personal Story Propels Theresa Greenfield In 3rd District Race". iowastartingline.com. Retrieved 2017-09-01.
• Grob, James (December 8, 2019). "Greenfield hopes to take small-town values to Washington, D.C." Charles City Press. Retrieved September 1, 2020.
• Matheny, Ryan (July 24, 2020). "Greenfield calls for extension of expanded unemployment benefits during pandemic". KMAland.com. Retrieved September 2, 2020.
• Rodriguez, Barbara (April 7, 2019). "Ex-campaign manager for Theresa Greenfield apologizes in ad over 2018's fake signatures". The Des Moines Register. Retrieved September 5, 2020.
• Pfannenstiel, Brianne (May 10, 2020). "Democratic challengers fight for momentum in muted Iowa Senate primary". The Hawk Eye. Retrieved September 12, 2020.
• Lynch, James Q. (May 19, 2020). "Iowa Democratic Senate hopefuls demonstrate differences in TV debate". Quad City Times. Retrieved September 19, 2020.

And some national newspapers as well:

• Pfannenstiel, Brianne (2020-06-13). "Poll: Democrat Theresa Greenfield leads GOP Sen. Joni Ernst in Iowa race". USA Today. Retrieved 2020-06-15.
• Bowman, Bridget (March 29, 2018). "Ballot Debacle Shakes Up Democratic House Primary in Iowa". Roll Call. Retrieved September 5, 2020.
• Arkin, James (May 24, 2020). "The political neophyte Democrats are betting on to capture the Senate". Politico. Retrieved September 7, 2020.

As I said on Talk:Theresa Greenfield#Notable, I believe that preventing recreation of this article is an inappropriate use of WP:PROTECT, which is meant to prevent damage to the encyclopedia, not to prevent collaborative community efforts at content creation. Dreamyshade (talk) 23:03, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

The proper procedure is first to request that the protecting admin. unprotect Theresa Greenfield so this draft can be moved there. I have done so at User_talk:Muboshgu#Unprotection_request. UnitedStatesian (talk) 01:38, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, there are earlier drafts of the article in which the biographical portion was longer and significantly more detailed, but other editors complained that that information was not relevant to Greenfield's political career, so it was removed. If you disagree, of course it would be easy to add it back in. Js2112 (talk) 05:18, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

• The proper procedure is to resubmit this draft for review. This has not been done and I suggest it is done. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:43, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

(Moved from draft space)

Clearly notable. This is one of a handful of tight U.S. Senate races that will determine control of that body in 2021. She's received a lot of coverage already and more to come. No objection to reevaluating after the election. But this belongs in mainspace. FloridaArmy (talk) 22:15, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Reviewer Comments

User:Dreamyshade, User:UnitedStatesian, User:Malcolmxl5 - Perhaps we need to clarify the policy on general notability of candidates for political office. It is the usual practice, with very few exceptions, that candidates for political office are not considered to have general notability unless they already had general notability before being candidates. Greenfield was not considered to be generally notable before she became the Democratic candidate for the United States Senate from Iowa. I declined the draft three times for that reason, and I think that I applied policy as it is normally applied in Wikipedia. The fact that the current draft may be much improved is not relevant to that situation. Greenfield is still a major party candidate for the Senate, and still was not generally notable before her campaign.

It is also not the usual practice, when a redirect is fully protected due to repeated efforts to replace it with an article, to unprotect the redirect to allow a draft to be reviewed. The draft can be reviewed while the redirect is protected, and the reviewer can request unprotection, or the reviewer can decline the draft and leave the redirect protected. Unprotecting the draft would permit the Greenfield campaign (or whoever) to copy-paste the draft over the redirect, bypassing the review.

I do not see a strong case for unprotecting the redirect, and I do not see a strong case for reviewing or accepting a new draft. Perhaps the policy on general notability of candidates should be reviewed. Late November 2020 and early December 2020 would be a good time for that review. This is not the time to try to revise the policy, and this is not the time to resubmit a draft.

I don't want to have to request that an administrator read the ARBAP2 riot act. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:55, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

(Just a note for anyone watching only this draft - a discussion thread is happening in the copy of this comment over here: Talk:Theresa Greenfield#Reviewer Comments.) Dreamyshade (talk) 23:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon: The criteria of notabilty is not that candidates for political office are not considered to have general notability unless they already had general notability before being candidates. The basic criteria for notability guideline is People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.

You cite the general notability. I note that this section requires:

• "Significant coverage"
• "Reliable"
• "Sources" should be secondary sources
• "Independent of the subject"

With over 60 citations, most of them from independent, reliable secondary sources, there should be no question whether Greenfield is notable or not. Please use the notability guidelines as written. I believe that requiring general notability before one becomes a candidate as an article criteria is an interpretation not in accord with the guidelines. Peaceray (talk) 04:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Two additional sources

Observing the "please do not edit this submission while this message is displayed" during the current review process, I wanted to note a couple additional potential sources here, with significant coverage of Greenfield in national newspapers: Washington Post news analysis from June 2019 + Associated Press article from yesterday. Dreamyshade (talk) 21:38, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Stop requesting review

This is like the fourth time that this has been submitted despite the fact that it was made very clear she is not notable. We can keep this draft in case she wins in November, but as of now she is not notable enough for her own page. There is no point in requesting review so many times just for it to be declined for the exact same reason. Nojus R (talk) 16:30, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Please look at the discussion above. AdamT777 (talk) 16:37, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at WP:AN

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard § Theresa Greenfield I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 18:53, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Notable

I think this is pretty silly to say that someone who won a primary with like five times the votes of many state representatives (who are all notable), has raised over 10 million dollars, is often leading by a little against a senator, and could very likely determine the balance of the chamber, is not notable. DemonDays64 (talk) 17:36, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. The race is one of the closest in the country and could determine the balance of the Senate. Greenfield is now a nationally known public figure and the draft article is thorough and well-sourced. Moreover, having a full Wikipedia article for the incumbent while blocking a very well-written and edited one for the viable challenger creates an unfortunate, inadvertent platform bias, in which readers can only get vital information about the incumbent. This should be changed ASAP and the draft article for Greenfield should become a Wikipedia article immediately. Baseballtom (talk) 18:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Also worth noting that the article became a redirect when Greenfield was just a candidate for the primary. Now that she is the Democratic nominee in a contested race, she has undeniably acquired a higher level of notability that clears Wikipedia's threshold by a significant margin. Baseballtom (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

@Baseballtom: who would one ask to unprotect it? DemonDays64 (talk) 18:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC) (please ping on reply)

This article was redirected by a discussion. It has gone to WP:DRV three separate times with the same result. Drop the stick and move away from the carcass. She'll get an article if she wins. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:20, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I'd add that anyone can start working on an article in draft form if she does win contribute to the draft article. --Enos733 (talk) 19:29, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

And the draft was submitted and declined eight days ago. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:37, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Muboshgu, I see that the Deletion Review activity was months ago, and the draft has been substantially expanded since then. The current draft looks quite viable to me, passing my understanding of WP:GNG with detailed content and solid referencing. I'd be willing to move this to article space, and to discuss it in AfD if nominated. That would enable a structured community discussion from the several editors who are interested in this, instead of the single point of review at AfC.

WP:PROTECT says protection is appropriate when there is a "specifically identified likelihood of damage resulting if editing is left open". I believe that unprotecting this page would enable healthy activity instead of damage: there's an effort at a carefully-written article with verifiable content, and the question is notability, so let's have a structured and collaborative discussion about notability (which is what AfD is for) instead of scattered conversations in various talk pages. Can you unprotect it so we can give this a try as editors together? Dreamyshade (talk) 22:44, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

To give this draft article and redirect such a high level of protection is absurd. A longtime editor like me can edit the pages of Donald Trump and Joe Biden, but I cannot edit the redirect for Theresa Greenfield. That makes no sense. This draft article is not vandalized, and is not likely to be vandalized. It clearly consistent with the Wikipedia policies on notability and BLP. Theresa Greenfield meets the notability criteria because of the large volume of independent media coverage that her campaign has received. As of right now, September 2020, there is a consensus on this talk page that this draft article should go up in the mainspace. Dreamyshade, myself, BaseballTom, and DemonDays all agree that this is notable. Only Muboshgu and one other think it should not. We must publish this article. Narayansg (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Agree also. All the DRV's ignored the increasing of newer WP:GNG-passing and only focused on it being "too recent" since the respective previous discussion. Now that the last discussion was over two months ago and a ton of new GNG-passing coverage has (predictably) occurred in that time. Oakshade (talk) 08:02, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. The original article was deleted before the primary had even concluded - while I agree that not every candidate in a primary is worthy of an article, I would counter that a major party's nominee in a very close Senate race with extensive media coverage that could very well decide which party holds the Senate definitely is. It looks like the last two drafts were rejected by the same administrator who appears to have strong views on one side of this dispute, even when there have been significant continued improvements to the draft - it seems to me like the best, most logical and fair outcome of all of this would be to open the discussion up again to get a better, updated sense of the community's consensus on whether or not there should be a page. Baseballtom (talk) 04:58, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Concur to everything said above. It seems abundantly obvious that she passed the noteworthy test. | MK17b | (talk) 22:41, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Patently obvious she passes the noteworthiness test. We can either have this discussion now, or in January. Buggie111 (talk) 00:16, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Typing in "Theresa Greenfield" into Google gives autocomplete results like "Theresa Greenfield wiki" and "Theresa Greenfield wikipedia" as autocomplete is based on the popularity of the search among other things, people want to know more about this candidate but cant as theres no article. There is no reason at this stage to not restore the article especially since she is notable. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 12:44, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Reviewer Comments

This is a copy of my comments at Draft talk:Theresa Greenfield in case anyone isn't paying attention in draft talk space to what is being said about drafts.

User:Dreamyshade, User:UnitedStatesian, User:Malcolmxl5 - Perhaps we need to clarify the policy on general notability of candidates for political office. It is the usual practice, with very few exceptions, that candidates for political office are not considered to have general notability unless they already had general notability before being candidates. Greenfield was not considered to be generally notable before she became the Democratic candidate for the United States Senate from Iowa. I declined the draft three times for that reason, and I think that I applied policy as it is normally applied in Wikipedia. The fact that the current draft may be much improved is not relevant to that situation. Greenfield is still a major party candidate for the Senate, and still was not generally notable before her campaign.

It is also not the usual practice, when a redirect is fully protected due to repeated efforts to replace it with an article, to unprotect the redirect to allow a draft to be reviewed. The draft can be reviewed while the redirect is protected, and the reviewer can request unprotection, or the reviewer can decline the draft and leave the redirect protected. Unprotecting the draft would permit the Greenfield campaign (or whoever) to copy-paste the draft over the redirect, bypassing the review.

I do not see a strong case for unprotecting the redirect, and I do not see a strong case for reviewing or accepting a new draft. Perhaps the policy on general notability of candidates should be reviewed. Late November 2020 and early December 2020 would be a good time for that review. This is not the time to try to revise the policy, and this is not the time to resubmit a draft.

I don't want to have to request that an administrator read the ARBAP2 riot act.

But these resubmissions are getting tiresome. If you don't like the way policy is being applied, change the policy or clarify the policy with an information page. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

There is no need to change policy (and WP:NPOL is a guideline, by the way): WP:GNG applies to all subjects, which is what makes it "general". Contrary to your assertion, there is no general notability guideline specifically for candidates, which is a contradiction in terms. In this case, there are multiple independent reliable sources in the draft that now meet WP:SIGCOV, meaning that this subject clearly meets WP:GNG. Some candidates will, like this one, (and like a certain subject with whom you may be familiar, and like many, many others) meet the WP:GNG before they meet the subject-specific guideline. When that happens, the article should be in the mainspace. UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps the best way forward is to get the opinion of someone WP:UNINVOLVED. Perhaps an admin with familiarity in the AP2 area. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:31, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with UnitedStatesian on policy interpretation and application here. So I have a question about next steps: how to find somebody who is the appropriate kind of WP:UNINVOLVED? For example, I was uninvolved before noticing this a few days ago (September 22), and I am not an admin, but my understanding is that admins wouldn't have special weight in notability discussions outside of their general expertise as editors. We asked on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Theresa Greenfield for a different perspective on removing full protection, but an uninvolved admin there chose to not take action because it's already involved in the AFC process. I'd be happy to help post on a different noticeboard or otherwise ask for help, but I'm not sure what a good next step would be. This is part of why I believe it would be a constructive process to enable creation of the page, and then people can take it to AfD if they want to -- because AfD can enable a robust, organized discussion of notability with multiple perspectives and an established judging procedure. Dreamyshade (talk) 23:23, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The basic criteria for notability guideline is People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.

Furthermore, general notability requires:

• "Significant coverage"
• "Reliable"
• "Sources" should be secondary sources
• "Independent of the subject"

With over 60 citations, most of them from independent, reliable secondary sources, there should be no question whether Greenfield is notable or not. Please use the notability guidelines as written. I believe that requiring general notability before one becomes a candidate as an article criteria is an interpretation not in accord with the guidelines. Peaceray (talk) 04:41, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

This has already been discussed numerous times including three deletion review discussions. The problem is that the sources all cover the subject in the context of the election. Wikipedia rarely has standalone articles about subjects notable for a single event (WP:BLP1E / WP:BIO1E) and considers the enduring notability of the subject (WP:NOTNEWS). Given that it makes more sense to cover the subject in the article about the event. If she wins the election or becomes notable for some reason other than the election then the situation would change, but it hasn't yet. Hut 8.5 06:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I love how the story keeps changing. The reviewer rejected the draft saying she was not the subject of significant coverage. When editors pointed out that, in fact, she was the subject of such coverage, now the concern is WP:BLP1E. Of course, that overlooks the fact that she was the subject of reliable sources, cited in the current draft, in 2018 (when she ran for Congress), as well as this year: clearly not one event. The sources establish the enduring notability, because the sources will endure. WP:DRV was WP:WRONGFORUM, since there was nothing procedurally wrong with the first AfD. On the other hand, it was clearly WP:INVOLVED for the administrator who nominated the earlier article for deletion to also protect the redirect from any editing. A second AfD, of this version, would be the right forum for a broad audience of editors to raise any WP:BLP1E/WP:NOTNEWS concerns; that second AfD is one I am quite certain this version of the article would easily survive. UnitedStatesian (talk) 12:40, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

UnitedStatesian, I see that this is the first contribution of Hut 8.5 to this page, so as this is a fresh perspective, I think that "the story keeps changing" is a mischaracterization if you are referring to Hut 8.5's comments.

Having written that, WP:BLP1E / WP:BIO1E clearly indicates that someone should not be notable for a single event. For Theresa Greenfield, reliable, secondary sources detail the following events:

• Greenfield ran for 2018 Iowa's 3rd congressional district Democratic primary
• After learning her campaign manager had falsified some of the 1,790 required signatures for ballot qualification, Greenfield withdrew due to lack of signatures.
• Greenfield ran for & obtained the Democractic nomination in the 2020 U.S. Senate election
• Greenfield has remained competitive

• Having raised 80% of what Ernst raised according to an NPR article in what is (from the draft) expected to be the most expensive in the state's history, and the second most expensive Senate race in the United State
• Greenfield is polling at least equal to the incumbent. the RealClearPolitics average has her ahead by +2.6%.

Two campaigns containing notable milestones, constitute more than a single event. Therefore, this meets WP:BLP1E / WP:BIO1E.

Peaceray (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, OK, there are a few sources discussing her failing to get on the ballot for the Democratic primary in the 2018 elections for Iowa's 3rd congressional district, but I don't think that gives her a meaningful career outside her current Senate run. It's worth at most a few sentences, we don't have an article on the election and we don't have articles on the people who did get on the ballot except the winner (who's now in Congress).

The claim above that "The sources establish the enduring notability, because the sources will endure" is a gross distortion of WP:NOTNEWS, which doesn't say that at all. On the contrary it says quite clearly that most events which get news coverage are not encyclopedic. This applies whether those news articles continue to exist or not. Rather the policy is saying that we don't have articles on things which generate short term news coverage but which are insignificant in the long term. If Greenfield loses and doesn't ever do anything noteworthy again then she will very likely be seen as insignificant a few years from now. Note that there aren't any campaigns for Wikipedia to have articles about people who lost Senate races years ago, it's only current candidates who people argue are notable. Her fundraising total and (very small) polling lead aren't relevant either, we can't write an article based on our own speculation that she's going to win the election. Hut 8.5 17:27, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWS as it states is meant to discourage articles of subject that have only received "routine news reporting of announcements, sports, or celebrities." This GNG-passing coverage of this person is far beyond any of those and have become even much further in-depth since the last DRV back in July. Not only has this person passed GNG easily, but having won the major party US Senatorial primary and has emerged as a major candidate and has been ahead in the polls demonstrates an enduring notability even if this person loses the general election. Besides GNG, even by NOTNEWS this person passes our notability standards. Oakshade (talk) 22:12, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

This whole argument is totally ludicrous. She easily passes GNG, you guys are just trying to impose extra requirements beyond that because you don't like GNG. It's an absolute abuse of the "Famous for 1 event" thing to treat a months long election campaign as "1 event." john k (talk) 20:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Jesus, the WP:BLP1E argument you guys are making is even dumber than I thought. As far as I can read it, all three of the WP:BLP1E conditions have to be met for it to apply, and only the first one applies even arguably. A candidate for public office is not a low-profile individual, so the second condition is not met. And obviously both the event (the 2020 Senate election) is significant and Greenfield's role in it (one of the major party nominees) is both substantial and well-documented. This is ludicrous gatekeeping that is ignoring the actual policies involved here. john k (talk) 20:42, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Comparison to John James

Can someone explain using the guidelines excluding a page for this candidate why then nominee for Michigan Senate John E. James should then have his own page? A page that began during his first political run just as Greenfield is doing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.101.127.247 (talk) 15:28, October 14, 2020 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. James' notability (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with Greenfield's notability (or lack thereof). – Muboshgu (talk) 19:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I think a less WP:BITEy answer may have been this: the general notability guideline contains the following sentence: "If reliable sources cover a person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having a biographical article on that individual." The current consensus among administrators is that Greenfield's campaign is a single event, and that unless she wins she is likely to remain a low-profile individual, and that there is nothing else unusual about her to make her notable. John E. James has been a major-party U.S. Senate nominee twice, two years apart. UnitedStatesian (talk) 21:12, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit request (October 15)

Since Greenfield is covered from the infobox on down, can we remove the anchor to General election, which skips past a lot of useful information? Thanks. --184.153.150.57 (talk) 14:13, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea. DemonDays64 (talk) (please ping on reply)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Draft of Theresa Greenfield article

Hi Jackie.salzinger and Green red tan. I wanted to alert you that I created a separate draft of a Theresa Greenfield article a couple weeks ago, which you can find here: Draft:Theresa_Greenfield_(2). (Because of the redirect in place when anybody searches for Greenfield's name, I didn't realize that the draft you've been working on already existed.) This likely already contains much of the material you have been adding. In any case, the issue for now is not expanding the article, but that there appears to be a substantial contingent of Wikipedia editors who believe that candidates for office are by definition not notable unless they have either held another significant elected office or were notable for non-political reasons before running for office. I disagree with this view, as it is not in accord with the written Wikipedia standard for politicians, but so far it doesn't appear that there are many others who feel similarly. You can check out (and contribute to) the discussion under the title "Advice for improving draft article re: notability" at the Teahouse for reference. Thanks, Js2112 (talk) 02:05, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@Js2112: There should not be two drafts on the same subject. I have redirected the second draft here; if there is any information from that draft that should be in this one, please use that draft's history to get it and incorporate it here. UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:50, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Js2112 - I'm inclined to agree with you. Sorry to hear about the duplicated work, and thanks for linking the teahouse discussion. – SJ + 01:37, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

List of related discussions

To try to help anyone who wants to read or participate in conversations about this article, there are active related threads in the following places:

• This talk page
• Talk:Theresa Greenfield
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Theresa Greenfield
• Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)#Changing NPOL to include at least some more nominees

Dreamyshade (talk) 23:45, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

– SJ + 01:37, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for collecting these links. I'll just add that there is a closure resolution today at WP:AN that interested parties might want to support or oppose.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 16:36, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Publishing

The discussion at AN has closed with the decision to move this draft into the mainspace. As a show of good faith, I'll be executing the move. Please give me a couple of minutes to make sure everything is cleaned up here. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Muboshgu. All this attention has certainly made for a good article: it demonstrates context and notability to a degree that I don't imagine anyone will doubt ten years hence. – SJ + 00:12, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits

@ST47: your edit summary here says "here's another source for the urban planner thing" but then in your edit it looks like you actually undid an entire recent string of edits from me. Was that intentional? Marquardtika (talk) 02:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Marquardtika: Whoops, must have pressed edit on an old revision and not noticed it. I think I've sorted it out! ST47 (talk) 02:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Marquardtika (talk) 02:16, 22 October 2020 (UTC)