Talk:The Avengers (film series)

Why this page does not violate WP:CRYSTAL

 + :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.  
 + The result of the proposal was merge with Marvel Studios--Dr who1975 (talk) 17:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

An editor has expressed concern that this article violates WP:CRYSTAL, however:

• WP:CRYSTAL says that a forward looking page can exist if the event is almost certain to take place. According to cnn and other sources, Marvel has green lit 4 more movies in the franchise. With hese 4 films confirmed the series' continuence is a certainty. I don't think it's realistic to assume any of them are going to be major flops. I think people are getting caught up in the fact that information on this subject is changing rapidly from week to week.
• On the validity of the series: It's a fact that this series is off and running. Iron man has been released, The Increbible Hulk is in post production and we know Tony Stark is going to be in it. Even if the series is cancelled, this page would still become a story about the failed Avengers film series which I guarantee you would have citable sources.
• On the series as a series: The Avenger's series is a series in the same way that the Daredevil and Elektra films form a series on the Template:Marvel Comics films (although I agree we are not ready to add the Avengers series to the template yet). With Daredevil and Elektra, different major characters crossed over into other films. I can guarantee that at least one major Avenger character will appear in each of the movies listed on this page (thus I could argue that it shows even greater validty than the Daredevil series where Daredevil wasn't even in the Elektra movie). It is not necessary for the word "Avenger" to appear in the title of a film for it to be considered part of this series.

Comments apreciated.

--Dr who1975 (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

My issue is what if The Avengers is not made? Then it'd just be an Iron Man and Hulk series with a minor crossover. There is definitely room for both though, considering there are separate pages for the Alien and Predator franchises. Still, the article needs sourcing and clean-up. Alientraveller (talk) 07:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added a point above addressing what if The Avengers movie is not made. This page would then become about a failed attempt at a film franchise. Also, it should not be assumed that all pages in a franchise should have a unifying word in the title. For instance, Daredevil and Elektra are listed as part of a "Daredevil" franchise but Daredevil isn't even in the latter movie.--Dr who1975 (talk) 14:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I have some thoughts that don't necessarily affect WP:Crystal. Wouldn't it be better to just develop this in your sandbox until a more suitable time to have this page arises? I don't feel now is that time as we are THREE years from an Avengers film. Furthermore, isn't their going to be just one Avengers film (as of current thinking)? It's hard to call it an Avengers films series because a) the individual films will have their own franchise pages (i.e. Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Thor etc), and b) how will this page be of use when the plan for the Marvel Universe is what's in motion. Ergo, how would you integrate another Marvel Studios film that isn't connected to The Avengers? Would Marvel Universe (film series) be somewhat more suitable? If it's even worth having, of course, considering the solo franchise pages. This article's a cool idea, but I think there's a lot to think about. Just my opinion. --81.107.101.143 (talk) 08:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Marvel Universe (film series) would not be apropriate because there is no such thing. Foir instance, it has been clearly stated that the first Hulk picture is not linked to the new Hulk picture. Marvel is not interested in linking all of their franchises together. Please re-read my modified comments at the top... it is a fact that this series is underway. I also beleive that this will turn into an umbrella frnachise under which other franchises will fall. The other franchises can have their own pages too once they have been established. Also, it should not be assumed that all pages in a franchise should have a unifying word in the title. For instance, Daredevil and Elektra are listed as part of a "Daredevil" franchise but Daredevil isn't even (or even mentioned) in the latter movie.--Dr who1975 (talk) 14:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a personal opinion here - I feel that this article does certainly have merit and doesn't violate WP:CB. There's definately a shared theme throughout these films, and footage from New York Comic Con, showing that Abomination will be brought about in The Incredible Hulk through the super soldier serum, certainly seems to indicate the theme is set to continue. As Dr who1975 stated anyhow, worst case, this becomes an article for a failed Marvel Studio crossover attempt in a few years, or the information eventually gets spliced into the various articles - Goldenboy (talk) 16:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Marvel announced dates for a number of movies which never came to pass, including once stating Thor would be a 2005 release, antman would be out by now, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and so on. That Marvel has intent means nothing until they actually start doing. As such, Marvel has a history which supports taking CRYSTAL seriously, and erring on the side of caution. I asked DrWho1975 to Userfy this page, so that when it's reasonable, the page can be relaunched. the priority on each of the cases of Hulk, Iron man, Thor and captain America is their own franchises. Instead, as I already proposed, the avengers tie-ins should be noted as such on thier own pages once such a tie-in is confirmed, and only when Avengers is in motion should we have a page for it. DrWho asserts above "it is a fact that this series is underway." No, it's a fact that Marvel has begun discussing it, and made clear the company's intent to pursue this. After Hulk is released, if it does as well as Marvel hopes, they may say more on the topic. As of now, there is not enough evidence to support this as a full article space page, and I feel that userfying it preserves DrWho's efforts, without violating policiesand guidelines. ThuranX (talk) 22:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I can see that you're trying to be fair minded about this and I apreciate that. I want to point out that Marvel has adjusted the dates in the past... but not the intent to do the projects themselves. If further date changes are made... wikipedia pages can be updated to reflect those changes. I would also argue that the recent 4 movies whose concrete dates were announced gives credence to the notion that they are in pre-production (and perhaps I'm not using that term accuratly but clearly some activity is going on with these films). Marvel is taking action... this most recent announcemnet was of a much greater specificity than previous ones. Two weeks ago I would've agreed with your point but things have changed since then. I would like to see what further concensus is.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

May I suggest that we do not keep this article due to the concerns raised and instead merge all relevant content to a section at Marvel Studios? This article can serve as the roof for all the films they intend for the future, including a possible film series. That way, we can detail their future plans without actually having a misleading "film series" article. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 20:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. this page continues to exist mostly as a violation of WP:CRYSTAL, and I renew my suggestion that DrWho Userfy this until we have good sources, beyond one stock report and IMDb, and then rumor sites. Again, I point to older stock reports which promised us Iron Fist, Luke Cage, and Black Panther movies by now. ThuranX (talk) 22:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I will back off of this. I may renew my argument for this pages right to exist after the Hulk film comes out... there may even be better sources once that occurs. Of course... I maintatin the current sources are fine, I'm just saying there may be better ones in the future.--Dr who1975 (talk) 17:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sources

I should point out that IMDb is not a reliable source, so the bit about the Ant-Man and Nick Fury films fall under speculation. However, if you wanna give more meat to your work, this link MAY be useful. It's just about the contrast in crossovers films between Marvel and DC. Not saying it WILL be useful, it just might be is all. --81.107.101.143 (talk) 11:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Properly cited speculation that is marked is stated as speculation (hence the word "unofficial") is allowed in wikipedia. So many people seem to misunderstand this.--Dr who1975 (talk) 15:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

That is a great link you just sent me... I will take your other comments under consideratio nand see if I can do anything about them.--Dr who1975 (talk) 16:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)