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Latest comment: 15 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
Hello,
As this article is included as a "core topic", I would suggest using the French article Bateau which is a featured article and covers the subject fairly extensively. While "bateau" usually corresponds to "boat" in English, in French the meaning is more broad and the first part ("Terminology") explains why both ships and boats are covered in the same article.
Hmmm... not true. "Bateau" in French means "boat". But "ship" in French is the word "navire". Granted, most French people would be unable to tell you the difference between "bateau" and "navire", just as much as most anglophones could not distinguish between "boat" and "ship" (or, if they could, they would be incorrect). Nevertheless, there are people on both sides of the Channel who know the difference between boat/ship and bateau/navire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.180.152 (talk) 06:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I can confidently report that a French nerd told me that their word "bateau" is derived from the English word "boat"; not the other way round. You might simplify life by abandoning "Ship" and "Boat", and redirect them both to "Vessel", and bung subs (which are boats!) in as well... it'd be a long article; but then I assume you'll be trimming out the content that belongs in Marine Engineering and Naval Architecture, and just sticking to the overview stuff... you can then link to each type of vessel that warrants an article. I mean, you've got Hydrostatics and Hovercraft in this article... where's the discipline here?! Let's just keep each article to a single purpose: an overview; or a detailed look. ...Pleaaaasseee??! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.6.39 (talk) 00:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
(Cross-posted at WT:SHIPS)This article is in pretty bad shape, but gets about 50,000 hits a month. I'm wondering if we could brainstorm a little and come to some consensus on what the structure of the article should be.
Right now, the whole article is about 20,000 characters. About 6,500 of that is in 2 lists. About 10,000 characters is on propulsion, which seems kind of lopsided to me. The current structure is:
1 Nomenclature
2 Measuring ships
3 Propulsion
3.1 Pre-mechanisation
3.2 Reciprocating steam engines
3.3 Steam turbines
3.3.1 LNG carriers
3.3.2 Nuclear-powered steam turbines
3.4 Reciprocating diesel engines
3.5 Gas turbines
4 Group terminology
5 Some types of ships and boats
6 Some historical types of ships and boats
7 See also
8 External links
The French wikipedia has a FA-quality article Bateau. There's a little twist in that French language doesn't distinguish as clearly between a boat and a ship as English does. Anyway, the article is about 80,000 characters and their structure is, more or less:
* 1 Terminology
* 2 History
o 2.1 Prehistory and Antiquity
o 2.2 Through the Renaissance
o 2.3 Specialization and modernization
o 2.4 Today
* 3 Architecture
o 3.1 The hull
o 3.2 Propulsion systems
o 3.3 Steering systems
o 3.4 Holds, compartments, and the superstructure
o 3.5 Equipment
* 4 Functioning
o 4.1 Hydrostatics
o 4.2 Hydrodynamics
o 4.3 Structure
* 5 Life of a ship
o 5.1 Design
o 5.2 Construction
o 5.3 Repair and conversion
o 5.4 Scrapping
* 6 Uses and classiication
o 6.1 Merchant ships
o 6.2 Military vessels
o 6.3 Fishing vessles
o 6.4 Pleasure boats
o 6.5 Sporting boats
o 6.6 River boats
o 6.7 Other
* 7 Some notable boats
o 7.1 Wrecks and rescues
o 7.2 Technical characteristics
o 7.3 Human exploits and exploration
o 7.4 Imaginary or historical boats
* 8 Around boats
o 8.1 Life at sea
o 8.2 Symbolism
o 8.3 Marine archaeology
o 8.4 Arts & culture
o 8.5 Poetry of boats
* 9 Sources
o 9.1 Références
o 9.2 Notes
* 10 See also
So, (a) is anybody else particularly interested in this article, and (b) any thoughts on what the structure should be before we dust off the wreckin' ball?
To perhaps help move things forward, there's a cybertranslation of the whole article at User:Haus/5. Cheers. HausTalk 00:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
ship or boat
Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
according to the article on the wreck of the edmund fitzgerald any vehicle on a lake is a boat regardless of size. 67.233.246.67 (talk) 05:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Image illustrating "Prehistory and antiquity"
Latest comment: 15 years ago5 comments5 people in discussion
An anon has twice changed the image that illustrates the section "Prehistory and antiquity" from
To me, the original image is far more illustrative, given the section into which it's being added. This same anon also attempted last week to add the new image to the top of the article - but as it didn't add anything not already better illustrated in other images, I had removed it. However, rather than immediately re-revert the most recent change by the anon - I wanted to first ask other opinions on the change via this talk page. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The new image appears to be a picture of a ship which while being perfectly nice, has nothing to do with the section it's illustrating, and there's no justification for adding it (WP:NOT#IMAGEGALLERY) and certainly not in removing an image that is clearly related to the section in question. Could it be the uploader just wants to get people to admire his picture? I'd say revert it. Benea (talk) 20:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:IMAGES#Image_choice_and_placement is quite relevant here. Images should generally match the text surrounding them. It doesn't make sense to have a picture of a modern boat in a section of text discussing ancient craft. I agree with Benea, it should be reverted. Parsecboy (talk) 20:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Agree the raft pic should remain to illustrate the proper section and topic. --Brad (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry,but it is the article about ships,and dear image it must be accepted with ships.Why delete him?,simply I do not need it was him to replace... 194.187.230.112 (talk) 18:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Merge +picture
Latest comment: 15 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
I suggest a merge of boat and ship article. Also, I suggest including a second picture near the first paragraph illustrating a more modern ship (motorship) next to the sailing ship already shown (as "ship" refers to both these types)
Generally speaking, ships and boats are different things. One wouldn't call a dinghy a "ship"; likewise, one wouldn't call Yamato a "boat". I suggest that it's best to leave the articles as they are, merger wise. Parsecboy (talk) 12:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
""You can put a boat on a ship but you can't put a ship on a boat""- US Naval enlisted service training - (boot camp). As the only exception I know of, a Submersible Ship (submarine) is commonly called "boat" by those who operate it. Leonard G. (talk) 02:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
this ios not a modern ship the is a fake modern ship from tho old ages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.17.81.178 (talk) 14:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Loadlines
Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The section on loadlines is wrong and misleading. The extra lines refer to drafts the ship can load to for various times of year and voyage zones. Fresh water allowance is only one of the differing conditions. I shall try to find time to correct these statements if no one else does first. Rumiton 09:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)()
New Types of Ships?
Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Sea Launch's ocean-going satellite launch ships -- Sea Launch Commander and Ocean Odyssey -- what types of ships are they? Currently at least one of the pages classes them I think erroneously as passenger ships and research ships. Ocean Odyssey actually launches geosynchronous satellites and is entirely unmanned during launches. - Ageekgal 07:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe that sea launch's ships would be classed as commercial, however its possible that in the future similar ships will be used for military or research purposes. Samuel Bailey 03:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Confuciou (talk • contribs)
Solar Powered Ships
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Are there any plans to construct a solar powered ship that runs completely on solar power? Or have they already created such a craft? Zachorious 13:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
From my reading, not enough solar energy falls on a ship at sea to drive it through the water. It could only be an auxilliary source of energy. Rumiton (talk) 14:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Reminds me of the old joke where any sailing vessel is a solar powered ship, in that the wind is generated ultimately by the uneven heating of the earth's surface by the sun. This is probably not what you're talking about, though. Ratmangxa (talk) 08:50, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Marine Engineering overlap
Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I recently changed the Marine Engineering article, as it was not about Marine Engineering, but mostly about Marine Engineer Officers on board ships.
It strikes me that from looking at this article, particularly the section on propulsion (and beyond) that a substantial part of this article is about Marine Engineering.
Whilst I accept that Marine Engineering is broader than simply the guts of ships; and that discussion of the guts of ships is relevant to an article about ships; the general level of detail in this article arguably exceeds the terms of reference of the title.
It would arguably not be desirable to duplicate content both here and in an article about Marine Engineering; so someone may want to consider summarising the Marine Engineering content here, and focussing more on producing an overview of the history and development of ships, so as not to duplicate content in the Naval Architecture articles either.
It might also be worthwhile to note the use of animals as a means of propulsion for boats and ships, in the pre-mechanisation era. The employment of horses and mules to tow vessels on rivers and canals was widespread, but there were also instances of river ferries powered by animals which were carried onboard the vessel. They used adaptations of the horse-mill mechanisms to drive paddle wheels. I remember a detailed article on the subject, many years ago, in National Geographic Magazine, but I can't recall the article title or date, for reference. There is also a short article on the subject in 'The chronicle of the Horse" May 21, 1999. (pages 90 -92).
While the majority of those river ferries would probably have been considered as boats (or perhaps rafts), I do recollect references to larger vessels - horse, or mule, powered passnger ferries on the rivers Delaware and Hudson - in the early years of the nineteenth century. They had the capacity for around two hundred passengers and could therefore be reasonably classed as ships. Norloch (talk) 12:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Conversions
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments1 person in discussion
2 million barrels (320,000 m3) and 2 million barrels (84,000,000 US gal), carefull now. Peter HornUser talk 01:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
2 million barrels (318.0×10^3 m3) and 2 million barrels (84,000,000 US gal) Peter HornUser talk 13:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
It started with 2 million barrels (320,000 m3) of crude oil, or 62,000,000 gallons
then I changed it to 2 million barrels (320,000 m3) of crude oil, or 62,000,000 US gallons (51,625,799 imp gal; 234,695,531 L), the cubic metres and litres did not match. So I changed 2 million barrels (320,000 m3) of crude oil, or 84,000,000 US gallons (69,944,632 imp gal; 317,974,590 L) now there is a match, and still better yet 2 million barrels (318,000 m3) of crude oil, or 84,000,000 US gallons (69,940,000 imp gal; 318,000,000 L) Peter HornUser talk 15:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Circumnavigation of Africa - precision
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hello,
It is mentionned in paragraph 2.1 (Prehistory and Antiquity) that the "Egyptians made the first circumnavigation of Africa around 600 BC."
This is not completely accurate. It is actually a Phoenician expedition which was sent by the pharaoh Necho II.
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Appearantly, allot of software has been developed recently to determine how much a specific ship, sailing in a particular place (hence taking into account water resistance) emits. Such software includes:
Perhaps it can be mentioned here ?
91.182.29.215 (talk) 08:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Photo captions
Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Several of the captions under the images of sailing vessels do not give the type of ship pictured. Why are they there, then? Thanks, Wordreader (talk) 18:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
So What Were They Before?
Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
This article starts: "Since the end of the age of sail, a ship has been any large buoyant watercraft." What were ships before then, doorknobs? Suspect during the age of sail, ships would also satisfy that definition as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.66.32 (talk) 17:03, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Definition of a 'Ship'.
Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
A Ship is a vessel designed and built to cross oceans and seas regardless of its method of propulsion, size or usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alan gardener (talk • contribs) 16:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
"Ship designs stayed fairly unchanged until the late 19th century."
Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Not sure what was intended here, but surely this is totally untrue.
Compare the Mayflower with a clipper such as the Red Jacket. Both were merchant ships of their era, but had a wealth of technological differences. Even over a shorter time period, say from the Mary Rose to HMS Victory there are significant differences.
I suppose the intent is to say that the rate of technological change in ship design was faster in the second half of the 19th Century. Given that we see more efficient steam ships from about 1860 - also iron hulled ships become more common - and many more refinements of deck gear, etc - I think that would be a reasonable statement. Late in the 19th Century, the use of steel in ship's boilers gave a further leap in engine efficiency - and this rapid change went on in the 20th Century until we had oil-fired boilers and steam turbines - then container ships, etc.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Copyright problem removed
Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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External links modified
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
A 3D model of the basic hull structure of a Venetian "galley of Flanders", a large Mediterranean trading vessel of the 15th century. The reconstruction by archaeologist Courtney Higgins is based on measurements given in contemporary ship treatises.[1]
I'm not sure what this animation contributed to the Renaissance section, other than its creator put a lot of effort into making it. I've removed it from that section, pending advice on why it is value added. User:HopsonRoad 15:54, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
^Higgins, Courtney Rosali (2012) The Venetian Galley of Flanders: From Medieval (2-Dimensional) Treatises to 21st Century (3-Dimensional) Model. Master's thesis, Texas A&M University [1]
Hydrostatics section
Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
This image probably doesn't belong in an article on ships—what do others think?
This section should not refer to ships and boats. It should only refer to ships, which are the subject of this article. I will pare this down. In the meantime, I have removed this image, which is not germane to a ship. Likewise, I'm not aware of any planing ships, so that bullet will go, too, unless I hear objections here. User:HopsonRoad 17:58, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
External links modified
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
The comparison of navies by number of ships in the lead is...let's say sub-optimal. The US listing includes major combatant ships, large auxiliaries; the North Korean includes stuff all the way down to landing craft and very small patrol vessels, many of which blue-water navies would classify as boats. It also ignores the fact that Coast Guard and other assets are very rapidly able to be taken over by the USN - the USCG alone has about 1,500 vessels which the KPN would consider "surface vessels". Guns or tons might make a realistic comparison, but calling an LCM by the same name as a cruiser is nonsense. Anmccaff (talk) 05:00, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree. The article is about ships; discussion of which navy has the most "surface vessels" is not relevant. Even if it were relevant, it does not belong in the lead. Yanacochito (talk) 11:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Massive gap needs to be removed
Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
In my opinion, the massive gap on the 'See also' section before the text underneath the tab should be removed as it makes the section look untidy in my opinion. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
A ship is, generally, larger than a boat. Is this a controversial claim? Cruise ships, cargo ships, and military combat ships are all large (and ships), while kayaks, canoes, and yachts are considered boats and are significantly smaller. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:21, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
It's not a controversial claim, although what once was considered a ship might now be considered a boat. Additionally, the largest submarine is still considered a boat. The ship, USS Cole was carried aboard another ship, MV Blue Marlin after being damaged by bombing, still consistent with the maxim "a ship can carry a boat, but a boat cannot carry a ship". User:HopsonRoad 12:11, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Just to raise a point, i dont have any source on this - rather just general knowledge having personally gone to a Uni with a marine connection. I believe the general modern interpretation is a ship leans out of a turn, whereas a boat leans in to the turn. Might just be an old wives tale, but thought it may be better than the sort of "not really sure" explanation atm. Maybe an idea to springboard off if an authoritative source can be found Garfie489 (talk) 04:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for this, Garfie489. I understand that's a distinction made in the US Navy, but I haven't found an official reference on this, either! Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 21:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
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Done Thanks for the tip, Xboxsponge15! HopsonRoad (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)