Talk:Sega Saturn/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Off the shelf components

"Many of the ancillary chips in the system were "off of the shelf" components. This increased the complexity of the design since less custom hardware was used."

Given the ratio of custom or semi-custom (masked programmed) components compared to off-the-shelf parts, the Saturn is almost entirely custom. Note that the cost is also much higher for these types of components than a simple RAM or other minor function part such as the DAC or RGB encoder.

Custom: VDP1, VDP2, SCU, SCSP, PLL, Mask programmed: SMPC (Hitachi microcontroller), SH-1 (Hitachi microprocessor), BIOS ROM, Off-the-shelf: CD controller, SH-2, 68EC000, RGB encoder, DAC, SDRAMs, DRAMs, SRAM

Using off-the-shelf parts makes a system design *less* complex, not the opposite.

"Rumours suggest that the original design called for a single central processor (making for an excellent 2D gaming experience but with very limited 3D capability), but a second processor was added late in development to increase 3D performance."

There is absolutely no evidence given, even in the form of presenting the source of the rumor. We should stick to facts only rather than wild speculation. Given the earlier architecture of the 32X and the fact that a second SH-2 has very little to do with 3D performance whatsoever (the SCU DSP and VDP1 relate more to that) this statement is misleading and inaccurate.

Custom chips increase the design cost, but usually leads to a higher degree of integration which in turn means lower manufacturing costs. Which of these is more beneficial is then just a question of volume. In any case there are some hints that both video chips originate from some Hitachi chipset, and the SCU DSP is referenced in several Hitachi patents unrelated to the Saturn so it probably either was or became a standard soft DSP for custom designs. --85.156.236.246 15:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above. The complexity issue has to do with the fact that Sega had to use more off the shelf microprocessors to achieve the same goal than if they had used fewer custom components with a higher degree of integration. So, in that regard, yes....it was needlessly complex because you had to get all these chips to work in perfect harmony.

On the other hand, it remains to be seen what would have happened if Sega used off-the-shelf microprocessors of a higher spec. Say, a single SH-2 at a higher clockrate (which Hitachi offers, but maybe not circa 1993), and a single VDP of greater capability. But given the sorted history of the machines development (vis-a-vis trying to compete with the leaked PlayStation specs) and without the benefit of hindsight, it's a debatable point.

Overall, I kinda get the gist of what the article, as written, is trying to convey. And I believe it to be accurate. Kensuke Aida 10:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Video capabilities

I think it was in bad form to have comments about the video section written into the article instead of put in the discussion page.

The Saturn has EDTV (640x480 progressive) and Hi-Vision (704x480 progressive) support. The latter has a higher horizontal refresh rate and isn't just more display space allocated to the overscan area of a regular 640x480 display.

This has been used by homebrew programmers and is listead in the VDP2 programmer's manual as one of the screen modes selectable with the HRES2-0 bits. For Hi-Vision you also have to change the system clock as all video timing is derived from it.

RGB, S-Video, EDTV, Hi-Vision output are *standard* on all Saturns, the only thing you need is the right cable. So rather than say optional I mentioned you needed a cable, and flagged the composite video as standard as all Saturns included a composite video cable.

Memory clarification

Should this statement "combined with SDRAM to make the main 2 MB memory area" be rewritten or clarified?

The low work RAM and high work RAM are physically segmented in memory and are not contiguous at all. The drastically slower DRAM compared to SDRAM also has an impact in how the memories are used (program code almost always goes in high work RAM, for example).

On second thought, maybe it's not too critical to fix.

PoV?

Radiant Silvergun, a title released in 1998 by Treasure, is considered by many as the best shooter of all time.

Panzer Dragoon Saga, which came on 4 CDs sold out immediately upon its US release and has since become one of the most collectable domestically released games ever.

NiGHTS Into Dreams, a title released in 1996 by Sonic Team, is considered by many to be one of the groundbreaking titles in the 2.5D Genre

It'd be nice to have sources, or refrence to those three entries; who are the "By many" who are so vaguely referenced to?

• • • As far as Radiant Silvergun goes that really is an opinion based statement, I might remove it. As far as Panzer Dragoon Saga goes, just look at its going price on ebay, Few if any normal domestically released games fetch the prices that it does. So that statement is definitely accurate. As far as NiGhts goes it's groundbreaking in the sense that it's one of the first. That might be a POV as well but all things considered I don't feel it should be removed.

---

The Sega Saturn was released on November 22, 1994, in Japan; 170,000 machines were sold the first day.

Could we see some statement in the first sentence that the Sega Saturn is a video game, if I am right in surmising that that is what it is? I came to this page thinking it was a car. Michael Hardy 20:10, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Oh, and while we're thinking about this obscure page: I came here in order to properly direct the link that now goes to the transparency disambiguation page. I am uncertain which of the "transparency" pages it should go to. Perhaps someone can attend to that. Michael Hardy 20:10, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'd like to note that Saturn does have very powerful hardware transparency, but it is difficult to use because of the interactions between VDP1 and VDP2 (i.e. it's possible to get corrupt rendering if operations are not carefully performed in the correct order). Also I suspect that there's something like a 6x increase in the rendering time because of the per-channel transparency. -- Anonymous

--

The overhead for transparency is 2x (one framebuffer read before each framebuffer write as opposed to framebuffer writes only) as the transparency ratio is fixed rather than being variable. Ditto for shadow processing where framebuffer pixels are read, darkened (fixed ratio again), and written back.

You can get additional overhead by using the color look-up table modes as those require VRAM access to look up the colors, as AFAIK they aren't cached. Otherwise the color is 'free' as it comes directly from the framebuffer (packed 5:5:5 BGR) or from VDP2 CRAM.

Someone should edit that part about Virtua Fighter Kids' Dural using software transparency, it just used the "mesh" dithered effect to achieve transparency (one pixel full opacity, the other empty, repeat). This looked particularly good in that game because VF Kids was running in high resolution, so the mesh trick was less noticable, especially on an older tv set or without rgb/svideo cables. Infact, the mesh effect in hires mode looked so good that people still seem to confuse it for real transparency to this day (I think the elan doree review at segagagadomain.com said the game uses real transparency, when again its just hi-res meshing). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.132.113.192 (talk) 17:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Saturn Models

US and Canadian Saturns are nearly the same. Consequently, they are referred to as "North American" or "NA" models.

I have been told that European and Australian Saturns are identical, although I don't know that for sure. It would make sense since the AC voltage and TV standard is the same for both.

Japanese models are self-explanatory.

All Saturns are either NTSC or PAL. There was no SECAM Saturn. The "SECAM" Saturn models released in France were PAL models with a converter.

I'm not sure about the rest of Asia or anyplace else. I would assume that places like Hong Kong or Korea would probably get the Saturn, but I can't say for sure. Hong Kong is weird in that it's offically PAL as a former British colony, but they have a VERY strong NTSC market thanks to their proximity to Japan.

This really needs to be cleaned up. Barneyboo 15:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yuji Naka quote or Yu Suzuki?

Something about this quote seems off to me "Yuji Naka is rumored to have said 'I think only one in 100 programmers are good enough to get that kind of speed out of the Saturn.' I remember reading the article this quote was taken from in Next Generation magazine, only it was an interview with Yu Suzuki not Yuji Naka.

I could be wrong, but I also remember in this interview Yu Suzuki was talking about the difficulty in programming Virtua Fighter for the Saturn. Suzuki went on to say that only 1 in 100 programmers would be able to utilize the dual SH-2's to gain 1.5 times the speed only a single SH-2 would provide.

Does anyone else remember this interview?

I don't really remember the interview, but I'm pretty certain Suzuki made the quote. --Shadow Hog 00:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've now added the full quotation, which was included in an article on the Saturn in a "Retro Special" issue of Edge magazine (which I think was a reprint of an earlier article in the main magazine). --Nick R 13:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Modding

Would it be appropriate to talk about modding the Saturn on this page? --Anonymous

U.S./Canadian models

I've got a MK-80000 with a notched power cord. I've been told of a model 1 that didn't, but it was a very early model 1. Further revision of that section is probably needed. --Anonymous

SSF/Emulation

Emulation of a Sega Saturn and commercial games was possible FAR before 2005 or SSF, the earliest being GiriGiri, which, iirc, was released in 2000. 71.224.246.205 21:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Girigiri could barely run games in 2001 and only worked on a bunch of videocards, on some cards it displayed nothing more then just garbage. SSF was into developement since 1999 (and possibly earlier) and could run a few games even on those early versions. It got well known in 2005 only because cpus were fast enough to run the emu at full speed (with the advent of dual core cpus which SSF supports to an extreme amount), and it was at this time when the emulator got sound support implemented. It had a compatibility rivaling that of girigiri-gav as early as in 2002, although speeds were very poor (2-3fps or so). And is the emulator section really needed? If so, some parts should be cleaned up, this stuff about SSF and many things about Cassini which is nothing more then a very cheap hack of girigiri-gav, with absolutely no improvements made by the developement team - everything they added was stolen from somewhere, be it a utility of some kind or game specific INI settings (for these latter, you can even copy them back to girigiri-gav and get all the improvements that users from a japanese BBS submitted and collected by testing hundreds of games). The worst part about it was that they removed all kinds of credits and claimed the work as their own. Their "disassembled source" was infact a junk ASM file that they got from an autodisassembler.

Splitting the article?

While trying to improve some of the writing and add some context to some parts of the article (e.g. "Consumers also noticed a change of marketing strategy at Sega of America" - I think the majority of consumers will have failed to notice this entirely, what with not being American and all), I received an error that my edits would put the article above 37 kB in size. I therefore think that the article probably needs splitting up or streamlining. The most obvious thing to me seems to be to branch off the technical spec and/or the models into a separate article and keep this one for historical context with perhaps a small summary of the technical stuff.

What do others think? - ThomasHarte 21:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the models would be a good start for a spin off (maybe some people would make photos of each saturn model for WP), but I wouldn't branch the technical stuff since half of it is important if you want to compare it to other consoles. Maybe there's a chance for the tech's a spin off when the needed information is kept in the article. Processors and memory are important if you want to compare it to the PlayStation while the power source is quite uninteresting. --32X 00:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

cartridges?

Since when does the Sega Saturn use cartridges? I have one and there's no cartridge slot. 68.194.16.14 03:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest you look a bit closer at your console then, since the slot is rather prominent on the rear top portion of the console. this image demonstrates where the cartridge goes.

The cartridge slot is used for peripherals such as the expanded storage area for more save games. I think the modem may also have been plugged into the slot. --CCFreak2K 22:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

At least that X-Band alike modem used the cartridge slot: [1]. --32X 23:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Be careful with that cart slot, because one two of my Saturns and many others I saw when I worked a video game store, a pin would fry, and disallow the cart slot to access as a memory card in games that can save directly to the memory cart. Coffee4binky (talk) 06:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Some information about Saturn models

-50,000 units of Skeleton Saturn? At Sega of Japan's official "SEGA HARDWARE Encyclopedia"[2], there is the information that Skeleton Saturn was sold 30,000 limited.[3][4] Does the source of this number(50,000) exist?

-Oval button Hi-Saturn exist. Oval button one is MMP-1 (BIOS1.01)[5] Round button one is MMP-11 (BIOS1.02)

Sales ranks

From the article: "At one time, the Sega Saturn held second place in the console wars, placing it above Nintendo's Super Famicom in Japan and Nintendo's Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES) in North America and Europe, but the Saturn slowly lost market share to Sony's PlayStation and, outside Japan, the cartridge-based Nintendo 64."

I don't think this is correct. The Super Nintendo article has it outselling Mega Drive/Genesis by a good margin. I would think this would especially be the case late in the game when Saturn hit as Genesis had more than a year's head start. Ace of Sevens 04:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Hidden Music Video

Hidden Music Video This is True, If you have the older Jimmy Hendrix Smash Hits(i belive this is the right henderix cd), and play it in the US Sega Saturn. You will be treated to a crude music video for all track, its images that kind of scroll around. Has anyone else experienced this with other cd???? --Robwsc56 22:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Look up CD+G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_G —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.64.211.30 (talk) 21:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

number of sold units (edit war)

As contemporary websites report Saturn sales to be much lower in the last few years of it's life[6], contemporary magazines such as Official Sega Saturn Magazine, Saturn Power and Total Saturn which I own complete collections of personally also back up a much lower figure, I will attempt to get some scans onto my website to back this up later. As I'm sure you will agree it is extremely unlikely that the Saturn shipped another 10 million units in it's final year of hardware production, especially as the platform was abandoned due to poor sales figures.

The previous figure of 9.5 Million units would appear to be much more accurate than a figure of 17 million!

Here we go:
(diff) IP 69.150.41.38 changed it from 10 to 25 million units
(diff) IP 67.190.40.19 changed it from 25 to 10 million units
(diff) IP 67.190.40.19 changed it from 10 to 25 million units (own change reverted)
(diff) 32X (that's me) changed it from 25 to 10 million units

de:Sega Saturn: "10 Millionen"
es:Sega Saturn: "10 millones"
sv:Sega Saturn: "10 miljoner"

Has anyone a reliable source at all? --32X 18:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Some more information: IP IP 69.150.41.38 changed the number of sold units in Sega Game Gear, Mega Drive/Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn and Dreamcast (rev without an edit war). Changes were made in Console wars too: [7], [8], [9].

IP 67.190.40.19 did Changes on the first three mentioned articles. --32X 01:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Get access to the actual UPC/SKU scans from all major retail regions, then the real sales numbers will come out. 17 million is close to that truth than 9.5 million. To get this data, you need to actually know people who know people in the real world, by the way, not some Internet citation. The dude with the Sega magazines is another figure that ought to be believed, but I would wonder if those numbers are for American numbers only. Coffee4binky (talk) 06:41, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Sega Saturn magazine, Saturn Power and total Saturn were all only published in the UK, so I very much doubt their sales figures are only US based. As previously posted if you look at this contemporary link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1997_Jan_13/ai_19014339/ it reports Saturn sales at 7 million by January 1997, there is no way that in it's final year of consoles sales it sold another 10 million units.

More contamporary 1997 evidence that just 7.16 milloin units had shipped by the start of 1997 and sales were declining:

http://www.sega-saturn.com/saturn/other/news-jan.htm

January 14, 1997

WORLDWIDE SATURN SALES REACH 7.16 MILLION

Sega Enterprises Ltd said on Tuesday that global shipments of its Sega Saturn game players by the end of December 31 totalled 7.16 :million units. A company spokesman said that it was shipping 32-bit video game players at a more rapid pace than originally planned.

By the end of 1996, its shipments in Japan amounted to 4.4 million units and in the United States to 1.7 million. Its shipments in :Europe by the end of 1996 totaled 900,000 units and 160,000 in other markets, the spokesman said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.176.211 (talk) 21:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Also see Sales figures correction item below \/\/\/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.176.211 (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Yet More To Back the Lesser figure:

EDGE Magazine - Issue 120 - February 2003

The following paragraph is taken from a feature on the Saturn that ran in the magazine:

"The last official figures regarding the market performance of the Sega Saturn were released on September 10, 1998. Sega has sold approximately 10m consoles worldwide - about 1m in Europe, about 2m in North America, and the rest in Japan and Asia. Sega Europe suffered the least casualties in the aftermath, but the Saturn's roots were the shallowest here.

From 1993 (year of greatest profit) to 1997, Sega had gone rom a net yearly profit of about $230m (£143m) to a net loss of about $389m (£242m)."

How many sources to we have for the 17 million figure again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.115.229 (talk) 23:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not how many sources, it's how many PRIMARY SOURCES. That would be none by the way, what we have is a bunch of gaming magazines making random guesses. --122.106.251.190 (talk) 07:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I was under the impression we had gaming magazines from the time reporting the sales figures direct from sega themselves, and a link to a news feed from the time reporting official sales figures... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.176.211 (talk) 00:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

This also backs up a total figure of ~10 million worldwide http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/14/business/international-business-sega-enterprises-pulls-its-saturn-video-console-us-market.html?pagewanted=1 it Says the total number of Saturns sold in the US was 2 million, with 5 million in Japan. Lets get realistic here, the total number is definitely around 10 million, not 17 million —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.211.27 (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

VDP clocks

The statement that the VDPs are "running at 7.1590 MHz on NTSC Systems, 6.7116 MHz for PAL Systems" is vague probably not correct.

Both 6.7 and 7.16MHz clocks are available on both NTSC and PAL systems for generating the 320-pixel-wide and 352-pixel-wide screen modes, respectively. Although I would expect a slight NTSC/PAL difference here (like 7.16 vs. 7.09MHz), does anyone know for sure?

As for the internal speed of the VDP and VRAM bus speeds, I can only guess that they are equal to the pixel clock or some multiple thereof. --24.24.90.150 01:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

---

You are right, the original statement is incorrect. The VDP2 has four distinct clock speeds for 320/640-pixel mode, 352/704-pixel mode, EDTV mode, and Hi-Vision mode.

69.110.44.96 (talk) 23:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Tomb Raider level design

"Tomb Raider was originally designed for the Saturn's quadrilateral-based hardware and as a result was incapable of displaying levels containing any triangular parts."

Quad-based 3D engines are capable of drawing triangular shapes, you just have two corners with identical coordinates. Either way, the primitive is unlikely to have had much of an effect on Tomb Raider's level design. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.64.211.30 (talk) 21:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

Operating System on the Saturn

What proprietary operating system is on the Sega Saturn? Please reply.--67.10.200.101 04:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

"This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sega Saturn article.

This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject."

Please ask such questions at the Wikipedia:Reference desk.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 06:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Marketing techniques

Since movie apparitions are being listed, should it be added that in the 1998 movie Telling You, there are some scenes featuring the Saturn? At least twice in the movie the main characters are shown playing Worldwide Soccer together. The Sega Saturn console and controllers are also clearly visible in these scenes.

selling at a loss

"Traditionally most videogame hardware is sold at a loss to allow for a price point low enough for quick adoption. With Sega having the market all to itself, it saw no reason to sell the system at a loss when demand was high in the marketplace."

Any evidence to support this statement? I believe that the current xbox, ps3, etc. are sold at a loss but traditionally (or in other words, before the Saturn) I doubt that this was the case. I'm inclined to think that previous systems (which in Sega's case were cost-reduced mutations of their own arcade machine hardware) were simply less expensive to make, whereas the Saturn was a doomsday machine meant to fend off Sony at any cost. 66.24.11.194 03:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a true statement insofar as console manufactures usually don't net much profit on the core hardware (although to say its always done at a LOSS is stretching things...PS3 is a very extreme case). Their primary profit centers are software, peripherals, and (especially) licensing. The Saturn was unusual in the sense that it was cutting edge when it was initially released in the US and Sega felt the $400 price tag was justified. Without a very diverse catalog, sales suffered accordingly. You'll note they reverted to the more traditional (and more competitive) pricing scheme when the PSX finally hit the market. As for being a "doomsday machine", that's an oversimplification. SoA and SEL was financially very healthy at this point in time. They gambled on their (relatively) good name by overpricing the Saturn just long enough for Sony to respond. Although there is ample evidence that late in the Saturn's development there were certain reservations voiced by the engineers at SEL about the PSX's capabilities (ergo, extra processors were added). Kensuke Aida 21:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Number of Video Codecs used on Saturn

Cinepak and Truemotion are most widely used along with Mpeg on a couple of Japanese games. Is that it or did any company use anything else.Atirage 07:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been a LONG time since I've done an update to or even looked at my overbloated Sega Saturn FAQ (previously used by editors in a much earlier revision of this article), but I recall C's Ware had a Codec called "Lucid Motion" (or somesuch) that they used on EVE: Burst Error, and whatever the hell the sequel to that game was (it's been awhile). IIRC, it was pretty damn impressive in terms of quality, but only useful for anime style art. Kensuke Aida 09:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed Shenmue as example of capabilities

I don't believe that citing a game that never was finished as support for the machine's capabilities is realistic. There could be any number of reasons for the game never being released, including their inability to get it running well enough. There are way too many variables to say this game proved anything other than the system was not right for the game (in whatever way that was the case). --Swaaye 02:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

According to AM2, they spent two years on the Saturn version before moving development over to the Dreamcast (hardly an insignificant amount of time). The videos show the game running on stock Saturn hardware. As far as I'm concerned, they speak for themselves. Why they moved it over the Dreamcast is immaterial to the fact that the Saturn was (obviously) able to handle the character models (albeit at MUCH reduced quality). It also offers a nice NPOV counterpoint to people who insist the Saturn was *always* crap at polygons. It should be re-considered for inclusion. Kensuke Aida 09:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a reference for the afirmation above from Kensuke Aida:

          http://www.the-nextlevel.com/features/interviews/am2/

Also I agree with the coment above. I think that is very important include shenmue as an example of saturn's 3D capabilities in the main articule. Maxxfarras 23:13, 02 August of 2010. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.170.50.72 (talk) 06:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of how fitting an example Shenmue is, it's not going to look good to the average Wikipedia reader when the example supposedly proving the system's capabilities is a game that was never released. And why use Shenmue when there are plenty of actually released games that show how well the Saturn could do 3D? Enemy Zero, a Saturn exclusive originally intended as a Playstation exclusive, is a perfectly good example. To show what I mean, here's a selection from an interview with E0 head developer Kenji Eno:

1UP: 'The graphics for Enemy Zero were really, really good. Especially for the Sega Saturn. The core work was really cool -- and even now, you look back and think, "Damn, for the 32-bit era, it holds up pretty well." How did you manage to get such performance from the Sega Saturn, which really wasn't a great 3D machine?'

Kenji Eno: 'First of all, I had a very good relationship with Sega, and also I had a very, very talented programmer, and the programmer worked really hard on this. But he was originally making this for PlayStation when we decided to move it to Saturn. But, the PlayStation and the Saturn aren't that different, so moving it to Saturn wasn't too difficult. '

I think the part I put in bold text speaks as an effective counter to the comments made by Lobotomy Software.--Martin IIIa (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Good observation.

In my opinion the articule gives the overall impression that the saturn was weaker than the playstation handling polygons. Which evidently is not true given the evidence and I think that its a misconception created mainly because the saturn was more difficult to program that the playstation (very early titles "looked inferior than the playstation") and the saturn was cancelled too early in many regions.

I think that the articule could it be impproved respect that subject. So could you please edit the articule and add your comment after the comment made for lobotomy sofware? Also maybe you could add and/or modify the comment about the shenmue release as an aditional and complementary example of the saturn capabilities? I could be do it but as you can see my english is not good enough. Maxxfarras 11:32, 03 August of 2010. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.170.50.72 (talk) 18:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Floppy Drive

My aunt had a sega saturn and i clearly remember it having a 3.5 inch Floppy disk drive add-on for storing saved game information, and was compatible with Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, as the console's instruction manual stated. Should we mention it somewhere? RingtailedFox 19:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, when you can get some more concrete information on it, perhaps with some sources, we will add it to this article. John2kx 19:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The drive was mentioned in the first edition manual for the Saturn. But as far as I'm aware it was never released (at least in the U.S.) Neo Samus 19:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This guy's selling the saturn floppy drive...i guess it was a japan-only perhiperal, like the Famicom/NES and Super Famicom/SNES floppy drives... [10] RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 15:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The floppy drive was JP only, although I knew an engineer at SoA who swears up and down it was mentioned in the English language development kit for the Sega Saturn (he sent much a bunch of PDF files, but they've since been lost to time). It never caught on and is rather rare. It was one of the three or four peripherals that used the serial port on the back of the console.

As for being Windows compatible. I couldn't really say. It would all depend on how the floppies were formatted. I know for a fact that you could download save files from the internet through the Netlink. It's possible you could do it through the floppy disk.

If anybody needs any sources for anything feel free to look at the Saturn FAQ I compiled and wrote years ago. You can find it on GameFAQs. The author name is John Hokanson Jr. or J Hokanson. I don't mind people using it since it's semi-abandoned, but I would appreciation citation credit. Kensuke Aida 09:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposed (Arcade Racer Joystick)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was Merge Arcade Racer Joystick into Sega Saturn, by silent consensus. --B. Wolterding 17:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

---

I propose to merge the content of Arcade Racer Joystick into here, since the notability of that article has been questioned. In fact it seems to be a non-notable product per WP:CORP, since no sources are given that would discuss the joystick (independent of the console). The short article Arcade Racer Joystick may contain relevant information in the context of Sega Saturn, but then the information should be merged.

Please add your comments below. Proposed as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 08:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

# and type of processors...

Many of the ancillary chips in the system were "off of the shelf" components. This increased the complexity of the design since less custom hardware was used. Rumors suggest that the original design called for a single central processor, but a second processor was added late in development to increase potential performance.

The above is somewhat misleading and should be rewritten.

The second VDP was added late in design. Not the second SH2. Extremely early prototypes of the Saturn had another CPU (rumored to be a V60 CISC processor at 16MHz as used in the Model 1), which owning to compatibility issues, wouldn't have worked with another processor type anyway. When they decided to switch to SH2s, the specs always called for dual CPUs.

Also, the multi-processor architecture was in itself a major headache, but it was also an open secret at the time that Sega's SDKs were absolute crap (I heard the kinda fixed them later on, but it was a bit too late for many developers). Bottom line is it wasn't the major death knell that everybody makes it out to be. Sega simply dropped the ball on supporting their hardware for the benefit of 3rd parties (and in some cases, their own in-house programmers).

Overall, this needs to be cleaned up and clarified.

Kensuke Aida 10:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this rumor needs to be removed. Rumors should not be included in the article because they are not facts. The Sega 32X used a dual SH2 configuration and predates the Saturn; furthermore the 32X manuals clearly state this setup was done to familiarize programmers with the upcoming Saturn. It seems clear that the choice to use two CPUs was done at an extremely early point, rather than a "me-too" response to the PlayStation. We could argue about when development for the 32X/Saturn started in comparison to the PSX, but the easiest solution is to maintain article integrity and not include rumors - unless we can cite an article stating the rumor such as EGM or another publication from that time period.

Could you please clarify about your source for the V60 information? The 32-bit V-series CPUs were in a legal quagmire due to their compatibility with x86 CPUs; for this reason that series was pulled out of the US market and NEC pulled all documentation about it, leaving a mysterious gap in their product lineup. I strongly doubt Sega would have had the influence on Intel to reverse this situation to the extent where they could mass produce a game console; furthermore while the V60 had moderate performance, the SH-2 beats it hands down. Given Sega's tight relationship with Hitachi, not to mention that almost all the components in the Saturn come from Hitachi, and that the entire CD subsystem is based around a Hitachi SH-1, it seems odd that they'd stick with an older, legally troubled, underperforming CPU when I am sure Hitachi was pushing Sega to use their latest chips for performance reasons.

Furthermore the architectures are completely different; SH2 has a 27-bit address bus and 32-bit data bus, V60 has a 24-bit address bus and 16-bit data bus. This alone would take significant reworking to shoehorn a SH2 in place of the V60. They aren't drop in replacements for one another. If we can provide a citation for that rumor, great, but I honestly don't believe the Saturn was ever intended to be based on the V60 at any point in its development. Certainly there were Sega arcade systems using the V60, but there seems to be no evidence the Saturn was to use it as well; furthermore consider Sega's last arcade system used the truly 32-bit V70 to get more performance out of the aging architecture. If they were going to use a member of the V-series for the Saturn, wouldn't that have been a better choice? I think it's obvious that they used neither, and had no plans to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.110.28.229 (talk) 17:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the rumored early single-processor Saturn design was nothing other than a plan to make a console based on the System 32 arcade board. I can't find anything to substantiate this, though I believe it used to be so written on the website "Segabase." Certainly, it would have been a cheaper board to manufacture, compared to the design that actually became the Saturn. It should also be noted that the V60 has floating-point support while the SH2 does not. In any case, this idea would have been dropped early on (before design of the actual Saturn even began) because of the desire for greater 3D performance. 69.205.239.137 (talk) 18:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

As a classic console

Should this section even be here? It's only redeeming value seems to be the "it gathered a cult following around the world" part, and that can easily be put into any of the other sections.

and what was up with the "(because they are weak)" part when explaining why casuals don't want a Saturn and show no interest?EAB (talk) 23:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Saturn was the major console for its era in Japan, actually. Things are different when living/visiting Japan during that era and seeing Saturn everywhere, with Super Famicom and Game Boy. Saturn was popular enough that consoles and games were sold at 7-Eleven stores and vending machines. PlayStation, and Sony in general, are a "discount" brand, much like Apex is in the US, so it never really took off during their 32-bit era. Coffee4binky (talk) 06:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Backwards Compatible?

Did the Saturn have any backwards compatibility with Sega CD games? Or games from any other system? Maybe add a note under "Compatibility" as to whether it did or did not. I've never owned either system so I don't know the details. Number3son 17:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't, I know from personal experience trying it out.
There may have been some kind of hack, but I wouldn't know. ʄ!•¿talk? 23:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The Saturn can't run Sega CD games, or even 32X games, without a few things. The Saturn uses two SH-2 CPUs and a whole group of different multimedia chips to access game data. The Sega CD is primarily based on the existing Genesis hardware, and has more closer ties to Sony's PlayStation. In fact, the computer format used by the Sega CD and the PlayStation are exactly the same. (That doesn't mean either machine and play each other's discs, it's just a binary format that both Mac and Windows can understand as well.) The Sega CD is based on the Motorola 68k series of CPUs, a whole different world of Hitachi's SH series. Unless an emulator was written to allow 68k code to be accessed via SH-2s, I doubt any Sega CD can just play. The 68k series is also similar to the previous 6502 CPUs used in many 8-bit computers between the Altair and NES. This made for easy porting or translation of PC Engine titles, if a publisher would want to do such a thing (The Space Adventure is the only game I can think of off the top of my head.) As for the cart slot, since it used a different pin layout, I don't see how, unless, again, an emulator and fitter cart be made, can the Saturn play anything from anywhere else. The closest system that could run on the Saturn might be the 32X, but that's also tied to the 68k CPU legacy. See 32X for more details. Coffee4binky (talk) 06:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

classic console chapter removed

While I agree with what the chapter read, it can't be cited or referenced and makes the article look like garbage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radicalfaith360 (talk • contribs) 03:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

DirectLink Merge proposal

I'm proposing that DirectLink be merged here, as it's been tagged for some time with notability concerns. What do people think? Gazimoff ^Write_Read 10:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Storage Card Misinformation

The article states: "Utilizing the cartridge slot behind the CD tray, portable storage cards could be inserted to store game information such as high scores and saved game files. This was one of the few accessories for the Sega Saturn to be available to third-party manufacturers, though it was not entirely useful as the internal storage system on the console was more than enough for this role."

That last line is completely untrue. For example, the game Iron Storm took up the entire internal memory storage of the Saturn. I'm going to remove that last bit. Tengu99 (talk) 17:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sales/floped?

It is true that the Sega Saturn sold more than the CD32, 3DO and Jaguar combined, and that it was beaten in sales only by the N64 and PlayStation does this make it a flop, or was it just a console that never did aswell as the company wanted it to do, like the PS3 (look I know it has not been discounied, just a exzample.), I would say so, it still managed to sell 9 million units. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 11:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Depends on who you want to believe. Most game sales numbers reporting, and games reporting in general, is all based on speculation and rumor anyways. To me, the system is a success, regardless of what numbers are quoted where, because of the Japanese market. PC Engine had this same thing happen to it as well. Coffee4binky (talk) 06:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

So that's why the CD32 and Jaguar floped, what about the 3do was'ent that releaced in Japan?! Oh wait the Jaguar was releaced in Japan, and so was the 32x, if these consoles were all releaced in Japan why were'ent they a sucsess like the Saturn and Dreamcast, surely if a console gets releaced in Japan it is automaticcly a sucsess. Am I wrong? mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 17:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

No joy on wether I'm wrong or right on the subject of whether the Sega Saturn was a sucsess and it's competitors were faliures? Well as soon as anyone has answers give us a bell asap. Cheers! mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe if you spelled released right and had better grammar, the answers would come flying in. What he meant by the Japanese market though was that the system sold strongly in Japan and games did well there. Therefore, he means the Japanese market for the system (in that it did well) warrants it to be mentioned as a classic console. TwistedArachnid (talk) Time of the day, June 8 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.240.245 (talk)

Year of end of support

What year of Sega drop Saturn support?Junk Police (talk) 05:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

'98 in North America, Europe and Austraila, 2000 in Japan. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 10:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Negative and wha?

"The games planned to be released in North America or Europe that were canceled included highly anticipated titles such as Sonic X-treme, Policenauts and Lunar: Silver Star Story. A chain reaction of cancellations transformed the 1998 schedule of released games down to a minimum with titles like Steep Slope Sliders, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Burning Rangers, The House of the Dead, Shining Force III (only part one of the three-part series) and Magic Knight Rayearth."

This doesn't make any sense to me. It feels like words are missing, particularly from the end. Sonic X-Treme was cancelled in all terrorities as was never completed, and it's cancellation had nothing to do with poor sales of the Saturn but because of a massive chain reaction of behind the scenes actions that reads like a novel. And all of the games listed and the end of the pargarph were released in the US and a good number of them (I don't know about Steep Slop Sliders, and Rayearth wasn't) were released in Europe.

Also why is this article almost totally negative and VERY America centric?

This entire article sounds like it was written by someone who dosn't speak english. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.194.53 (talk) 15:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

dwitefry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwitefry (talk • contribs) 15:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to fix the section you mention. My big problem with that part of the article though is that it states the bundle didn't do well because gamers prefer to pick their own games. How do we know? Bundles do really well now and did pretty well back then from what I remember. I mean I normally think Wikipedia requires sources on some pretty minor stuff, but there should be a source for this or it should be removed. It's pretty much guessing. Perhaps people merely liked the selection of games on the other systems better.TwistedArachnid (talk) 00:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to delete that bit right now. It's an absurd claim on multiple levels. Just to name one, it assumes that consoles are purchased only by the people who use them, and never as gifts.--Martin IIIa (talk) 13:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Sales figures correction

I removed the 17 million figure. I presume it's an error. I've found several sources that point to the 9.5m figure stated by GamePro. Note, the Dreamcast was released in late 1998 in Japan (1999 in USA) thereby completely taking over any potential sales of the Saturn from then on.

• "It sold close to 6 million in Japan, twice the combined total of the rest of the world" [11]
• 1.5 million in the US at the end of 1998 [12]
• 8.2m to 1998 [13]

Mahanga^Talk 18:08, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

How much did it sell?

It says one article said it sold 9 million, while the othe rmagazine article says 17 million. It shouldnt show both. that would confuse readers. Should we pick which is more accurate? maby the 9 million one its. Should i delete the 17 million? Let me know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.100.129 (talk) 14:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks like someone else already tried to address this in the thread above. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Reviewing it more, it looks like the confusion in May was that the article didn't clearly state the source of the discrepancy. It's a notable point that there are conflicting sales numbers being reported in secondary sources, so I think the current wording is fine. I think the earlier wording that was at issue in the thread above this one was that you couldn't tell which source had the better figure. The current wording makes it clear that the official, accepted number is around 9 million, while one source claims 17 million. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Megadrive II

Just a quick point - I heard that the Saturn was sold in some places as the Megadrive II. Anyone know anything about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.225.165.163 (talk) 13:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Megadrive/Genesis II would've been the redesigned 2nd version of that system, not a Saturn. Saturn went by Saturn in all markets.76.226.100.85 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC).

Site Addittion

I would like to request add my site in the links. I saw theres a notice in the article so I didnt feel like to add without permission.

Long time ago, my site was in the links but someone removed it. I dont know the motives behing this but it was unfair. The Link is : www.segasaturndatabase.co.nr and it presents screens from Saturn games. My general purpose is to present ingame pics from almost every Saturn game released. I started this "painful" effort back in 2006. It has no ads, spams or anything suspicious and I think its quite more useful for the visitors than some Saturn Communities (most of the links in the article) since it has a different purpose.

Thanks in advance —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scatman21 (talk • contribs) 11:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Bernie Stolar's "five star policy" on Saturn games

Can someone with good cites add something to the article about this, and how it affected publishers/developers? I can't find good info about it, just mentions of it, but if someone has the info, it should probably be in here (or in the article on Bernie maybe).76.226.100.85 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC).

Discontinued when?

The dates for the Saturn's discontinuation in this article are obviously wrong. In particular, the article claims that it was discontinued in North America in April 1999, when the last NA Saturn game came out in December of 1998, and the last first party release several months before that. In short, according to this article, Sega supported a console for half a year without releasing any new games for it! Sega has done some dumb things, but that would take the cake for dumbest moment in the history of gaming.

In addition, we only have one reference for those discontinuation dates, and if you actually read the reference, you'll find that it only refers to the Saturn North American shelf life, and only vaguely at that.

The Saturn must have been discontinued sometime in 1998 in North America and Europe, and sometime in 1999 or 2000 in Japan, but does anyone have specific dates with references to back them up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin IIIa (talk • contribs) 19:44, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Sega Saturn Pluto prototype

Sega Saturn with Netlink inside

File:Saturn with netlink backside.jpg I think it's name is Sega Pluto prototype, it has a netlink installed inside it. It should be in the main article. renegadeviking

Note

If anyone was wondering about my removal of "3D" in this edit, suffice it to say that the backgrounds in Saturn VF2 are not "true 3D" like in the arcade game. Rather than posting a Youtube comparison video here, I will mention a print RS that discusses this: See "Lost in the Translations", a subsection of GamePro's April 2002 (issue 163) cover story on Virtua Fighter 4, page 50.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:55, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Any thoughts?

My copy of Console Wars has arrived a day early, and while I look forward to a thorough reading I believe it would be wise to immediately start a discussion about what it has to say about the Saturn's surprise launch. This article currently states that Kalinske devised the surprise launch in response to pressure from Sega of Japan and out of a desire to generate excitement for the system, which is by no means a commonly accepted proposition, and if it is inaccurate the statement should be revised accordingly. The following sources support this notion:

• "We needed to do something shocking because we were $100 more than the other guy...I still think [the surprise launch] was a good idea. If I had it to do over again would I do it a little differently? Yeah, definitely. I wouldn't take the risk of annoying retailers the way we did. I would clue them in and do an early launch in a region or three regions or something so we could include everybody."-Kalinske, "Is War hell for Sega?", Next Generation, January 1996
• "We all knew PlayStation was coming so we wanted to pre-empt them. Japan basically ordered us to be on shelf in the Fall, [so] I thought up the surprise launch as a way of generating excitement and PR. However, the downside was not enough software was ready, which was a significant problem, and the surprise benefited some retailers but annoyed others who were either not included or didn't receive a large enough initial allocation of hardware. On top of that, the price was really too high. If we'd had a larger number of units to launch correctly with all retailers, and if we'd had a few more software titles, I think the result would have been significantly better. On the other hand if we'd waited until PlayStation was in the market I think the results would have been even worse."-Kalinske, "Sega Saturn: The Pleasure and the Pain", 1UP.com

Console Wars paints a very different picture:

• "We can't just change our plans like that," Kalinske said. "Especially not with the new trade show only weeks away. We need to put our best foot forward." "That's what I am thinking," Nakayama said, in a sweeter voice that seemed to indicate he believed they were now on the same page. "It makes for a perfect opportunity to launch our new Saturn."...Kalinske vehemently opposed this idea; it made absolutely no sense."-Console Wars, pg. 536
• In addition, GameSpot's "History of Sega Fighting Games" claims that the surprise launch was motivated in part by a desire to space out the Saturn releases of Virtua Fighter and Virtua Fighter 2 in the US, which is another piece of evidence suggesting the decision was made in Japan.

As I don't feel confident in assessing where the truth of this matter lies, I invite other editors to propose their own attempts to reconcile the sources.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

• So here's my two cents. First, the Next Generation quote is clearly marketing spin/damage control. There is no reason to believe that quote means he actually thought it was a good idea. Second, I find the Gamespot claim highly dubious. Virtua Fighter was never particularly popular in the United States -- unlike in Japan -- so the idea that the company would upset its entire timetable just to spread out two game releases that would receive a lukewarm reception in the States anayway is just nuts, even when compared to some of the boneheaded moves SOJ made in this period. I mean, if they were really concerned about that, they could have just postponed VF2.

That brings us to the two actual viable sources presented here, both of which rely on recent interviews with Kalinske. They are both reliable sources and they do seem to contradict each other. I guess the one way I can see them fitting together is that the surprise part of the launch was Kalinske's idea, that is, once Nakayama insisted they launch at E3, Kalinske was the one who decided to make the new plans a secret until the E3 press conference, decided which retailers would be allocated the early stock, etc. If that feels a little to OR, then you may just have to include both sources and state that Kalinske has given different info at different times. My gut tells me that Japan forced his hand on this one though, as that fits the whole theme in sources covering that period of Japan taking more and more control and running SOA into the ground as a result. Indrian (talk) 19:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

My first thought before checking the book was exactly that--the surprise part was Kalinske's idea. However, that interpretation is completely inconsistent with the narrative presented in Console Wars. If Nakayama wanted the announcement made at E3, I'm guessing he did not want word to leak out earlier.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:12, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, this is where Harris's approach becomes frustrating. Since the dialogue is made up, its hard to say which parts of that conversation are based on fact and which are embellished to create a more compelling narrative. I agree that taking this line of thinking too far, however, leads us dangerously close to the realm of original research. It may be best to present both sources and point out the inconsistencies. Indrian (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Is that what you think is best, or do you think we should simply ignore the 1UP source in this case? I've been a little bit more reticent to heap all of the blame for Sega's downfall on Sega of Japan, if only because mainstream English-language sources make almost no effort to interview anyone who could tell their side of the story, but I certainly do not own the article and am hardly confident that what 1UP reports is true. The only reason I consider 1UP somewhat credible is because Kalinske makes the exact same general argument about the Saturn needing a head start against Sony in his interview with Next Generation, and as you say we have no way of knowing what specific comments Harris' text is based on.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:16, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Indrian--I asked Harris about this and he made it abundantly clear that he heard from Kalinske and others that both the early launch and the surprise part were mandates from SOJ. Unless compelling evidence corroborates the 1UP source, I think it should be ignored in this case, and have edited the article accordingly.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Kalinske gives the same account as Harris in a recent interview (go to 40:20).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:53, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Saturn articles in EGM and Next Generation

Following up on what I said here. I'll summarize the articles in my early EGMs related to the Saturn; if they look useful, I'll scan them. Be sure to look at the Saturn coverage listed in the Next Generation index as well.

• October 1993: New 32-Bit Saturn Info (insider news related to the system's price, backwards compatibility and "code card")
• November 1993: Sega Readies 32-bit Saturn CD Game Machine (specs, backwards compatibility, price, business implications of the Saturn launch, relationship with the Sega 32x), Latest Dirt On Sega's Saturn (insider news on recordable CDs, "upgrade boards", "cable downloading", concerns about price)
• December 1993: Saturn Pops Up to 64-Bit (insider news related to the 32-bit and 64-bit architecture of the Saturn, prices of cartridge-only and CD/cartridge releases), Sega to Add 64-Bit Processor to New Saturn System! (confusion over the 64-bit and 32-bit architecture, spec announcements, Japanese press rumors about rewriteable CDs/backward compatibility/price/etc., ten games in development for launch, implications for Sega CD)
• January 1994: Sega Reaffirms CD Commitment (plans to release incompatible Saturn and CD systems simultaneously)
• March 1994: The Sega Saturn System Shown at the 1994 Winter CES! (this is cited in the article already, but I can provide a scan if you guys didn't have the complete article yet), More Information on the Sega Saturn and New Releases! (full specs, price)
• May 1994: Sega Vs. Nintendo ... U.S. Vs. Japan (editorial about the Sega/Nintendo console war including the Saturn, along with comparisons between Sega's performance in North America and Japan), Turn Your Genesis Into a Saturn (Sega 32x announcement and how it relates to the Saturn business plan)
• September 1994: 32x and Saturn Try to Get Along (insider rumors about struggles to make 32x and Saturn compatible, even though they use the same Hitachi chip), 32x and Saturn (Sega of America considers changing the Saturn hardware for the North American release)
• November 1994: Sega to Overhaul Saturn System? (insider rumors about a hardware upgrade to the Saturn after its Japanese release)
• December 1994: Sega's Saturn Launched in Japan (release date, price, launch games, future games, controller variants)
• May 1995: Sega to Launch Sega Saturn on Saturn-Day, September 2 (this article is already cited, but there's quite a bit of good sales information in it that hasn't been used; ask me if you need the full article), Sony Suffering from High Price Tag Blues (insider news about Sony moving up the PlayStation's release and lowering its price to counter Saturn-Day)
• June 1995: The System Pack-In Wars are Heating Up (Saturn pack-in news), Saturn is pricey to manufacture (rumors about the Saturn's internal price)

That's that. Tell me if you want me to look at later issues. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:34, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• I would be interested in reading "Sony Suffering from High Price Tag Blues", although I don't necessarily lean towards including such rumors here (if anything, they may be more relevant to the PlayStation article). "Sega to Launch Sega Saturn on Saturn-Day, September 2" is mostly sales projections, outside of 500,000 units sold in the first year in Japan (if I remember correctly), and I didn't want to get too detailed with year-by-year regional sales. I'm sure I could find a use for "32x and Saturn Try to Get Along" and maybe "Sega Vs. Nintendo ... U.S. Vs. Japan", even if only as another cf. (Thanks for your help on Sonic R, BTW; I'm pretty sure it looks much better now, although I won't really know for sure how much sense my changes made until I look at it with fresh eyes tomorrow.) Cheers,TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
• Thanks for posting all this Jimmy. I would definitely like to see the "Saturn Pops Up to 64-Bit" article, as there are so many contradictory rumors relating to the Saturn redesign that its best to read as many of them as possible to try and get some sense of what actually happened. "Sega to Overhaul Saturn System?" looks interesting despite being rumor, as it speaks to continued dissatisfaction relating to the hardware. I also second the interest in both "32x and Saturn Try to Get Along" and "Sega to Launch Sega Saturn on Saturn-Day, September 2." I could also definitely go for some "Sega Vs. Nintendo ... U.S. Vs. Japan" since the title promises more info on Saturn's early acceptance in Japan and its failure in the US. Indrian (talk) 14:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• No problem about Sonic R, Times. Anyway, here are the scans you guys asked for. I threw in a couple that you didn't mention because they were tied into Quartermann gossip columns that you wanted to see.

• Steve Harris, page 64, #53, December 1993
• Staff, page 68, #53, December 1993
• page 6, #58, May 1994
• Steve Harris, page 48, #62, September 1994
• Staff, #62, September 1994
• Steve Harris, page 56, #64, November 1994
• Steve Harris, #70, May 1995
• Staff, #70, May 1995
• Staff #70, May 1995

• Hope there's something useful in these. Good luck with the renom. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so "Saturn Pops up to 64-bit" refers to the Japanese press using conflicting descriptions of the system as alternatively 32-bit or 64-bit. I didn't expect the material to be about the Saturn's redesign, considering it would have been written around October 1993. The other story from the same issue, which is coincidentally placed on the same page as "Sony of Japan has just made an announcement that they are planning to get into the video game hardware market", is more interesting because it provides direct confirmation from Sega that the Saturn had seven processors at that time rather than eight.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Just in case my summaries were too vague, I scanned this (Staff, #52, November 1993) and this (Staff, #52, November 1993) for you guys to double-check. They give development and announcement dates for the Saturn, among other information that might be interesting. There's some stuff in them that I didn't notice in the article. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Those are interesting!TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Please, your precious Next Generation was still saying the Saturn had seven processors in September 1995. (https://archive.org/stream/nextgen-issue-009/Next_Generation_Issue_009_September_1995#page/n53/mode/2up) Those types of discrepancies don't prove anything about a redesign. You'd be amazed by how many inaccurate rumors and false, contradictory claims you can find in these old magazines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2ECA:C150:4818:35CD:6A8:61E1 (talk) 19:30, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

True enough, but what is the alternative? We have been able to establish that the SH-2 was specially commissioned for the Saturn and that the system had at least seven of its eight processors prior to Sony's PlayStation announcement, which certainly limits the extent to which we can speculate about the rumored redesign. I am largely sympathetic to your opinion about the accuracy of these tabloids. Even just looking at Sega-related stuff, I found Next Generation 11 (for example) a rather amusing read, with claims like Hirokazu Yasuhara (rather than Yuji Naka) as the programmer of Sonic The Hedgehog and Shining Wisdom being developed by Sonic Team ("the makers of the original Genesis Sonic") rather than Sonic! Software Planning. That said, we're stuck with the sources available, and I think the article uses them as well as possible to avoid the many contradictions they contain.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Restoring the lost info

Some time ago several sections, such as Saturn models and Compatibility, have been removed. I re-added them recently (see the history) but was reverted by another user, who claimed a lack of sources - after looking, some sections like Sega Pluto have enough/reliable ones whereas the Compatibility section does not, so clearly it differs.

I personally think there are lots of useful information and details here that I think deserve to be on the article. These removed sections have plenty of info that should belong part of the page.

As much as I can, I will make sure that those sections will be restored. For sections that are not sourced enough, I would hunt for reliable sources and add them. But clearly sections like Sega Pluto have many, and are trustworthy. Tell me your opinion on this. --G&CP (talk) 15:55, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Once you find the reliable sources, submit your revision here. Changes will be met with scrutiny because this is a recognized Good Article and former Featured Article candidate. The bits of the deleted Pluto section that were reliable and non-trivia are still in the article.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Seconded. Your changes to this and Sega Genesis are meeting so much resistance because they are radical changes to articles that have been extensively worked on and reviewed to GA/FA specifications. And many of your suggestions contain unsourced information or personal commentary in parentheses, which are frowned upon anywhere anywhere on the site. Sergecross73 msg me 21:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Grammar of Genesis/Mega Drive

I've discussed this with Sergecross73 where I take issue with one line that he/she finds should not be changed: "Released in Japan in 1988, the Sega Genesis (known as the Sega "Mega Drive" in Europe and Japan) was Sega's entry into the fourth generation of video game consoles.".

• I'm not debating whether the console should be referred to as Mega Drive or Genesis; my point is that this sentence as it's currently written is referring to the Japanese 1988 launch, and in that context it should read Mega Drive. The Genesis article itself (under Launch) refers to the Mega Drive in that context.
• There's also the additional point that Japan is mentioned twice in a short sentence and could be tidied up.
• If we were to keep the same sentence structure but correct the inaccuracy, it should read something along the lines of "Released in Japan in 1988, the Mega Drive (known as the Sega Genesis in North America) was Sega's entry into the fourth generation of video game consoles.".
• If the consensus is to keep it US-centric and use the Genesis nomenclature, the sentence could be re-written – one suggestion: "Released in North America in 1989 (originally released as the Mega Drive in Japan in 1988 and Europe in 1990), the Sega Genesis was Sega's entry into the fourth generation of video game consoles."

I also took issue with the use of quote marks around the Mega Drive term. Sergecross73 insist they're necessary as they denote the product name and the two words are also commonly used in other contexts. I don't find that a valid argument, since many other product names are made up of common words such as the Family Computer, Game Gear, Game Boy and countless others. Thoughts would be appreciated. 87.81.143.227 (talk) 20:06, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. We state the original release year, and use the name of the relevant Wikipedia article, which is Sega Genesis. "Released in North America in 1989 (originally released as the Mega Drive in Japan in 1988 and Europe in 1990)" is not an improvement, and is needlessly confusing. Also, Sergecross73 didn't insist the quotes were necessary as much as he explained why they are there, as opposed to your sinister intimation that they are intended as some kind of insult to Europeans such as yourself.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:10, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarification on policy re stating the original release year and relevant article name. I respectfully disagree on the quote marks, with Sergecross73's stating that "[(unlike] Wii, which has no use other than a name of a product. The same cannot be said of "Mega Drive".)" sounding like quote marks are necessary in this case. I also point out that my secondary objection to the quote marks was just a personal one, and at no point did I say they were purposefully intended to be some kind of sinister insult to Europeans or anyone outside of North America, but I appreciate your comment on that, however patronising. I assume you reject my Family Computer/Game Gear/Game Boy examples in favour of keeping the quote marks. 87.81.143.227 (talk) 06:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - consistency with other article name, and the proposal is just needless tinkering. And thank you, Times, as I already tried to explain that they weren't meant as scare quotes, but the IP continued to go with his negative imagination rather than assume good faith. Sergecross73 msg me 11:36, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, you already did explain they weren't meant as scare quotes which I understood – only once have I ever mentioned my opinion of the quotes having a possible negative connotation, so can you show me where I (she) "continued to go with [her] negative imagination" and not assume good faith? I don't see how that could be used as justification in your side of the discussion since I've done so such thing. I was pointing out your example of Mega Drive needing quotes because they're two very common words used in different contexts – "[Wii] has no use other than the name of a product. The same cannot be said of "Mega Drive"" – was flawed at best and wasn't consistent with other articles – "Family Computer", "Game Gear" and "Game Boy" don't appear in quotes for example. That's something I've repeatedly mentioned but has yet to be directly addressed or countered.

In response to my comment where I was explaining not every time quotes are used means they're "scare quotes", you started complaining about how I had put "factual innaccuracies" in quotes as if they were meant to belittle you. I was just telling you about how not every quote is scare quotes, and that's your next response. That's a failure to assume good faith. Pretty certain this is what TheTimesAreAChanging is referring to as well. Sergecross73 msg me 14:49, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

"Your "factual argument" has been debated endlessly [...] so I'm not interested in that one" was a misquote (intentional or not) and sounds clearly belittling and patronising to myself anyway, but I apologise if you believe I failed to assume good faith. Any thoughts to the actual point I was making re: Family Computer etc? 87.81.143.227 (talk) 15:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

• Honestly, I think the anon here has a perfectly valid point. Grammatically, it does make more sense to either refer to the system as the Mega Drive initially and then as the Genesis in parentheses or to remove any reference to the Mega Drive at all and just call it Genesis throughout (or Mega Drive throughout, though that leads to problems of inconsistency with article titles). As the anon says, this is not a matter of which name is "right" on Wikipedia, but is a grammar situation; the current wording really is unnecessarily awkward. I think the anon inadvertently walked into a minefield on this one though, due to the contentious naming debates surrounding the Genesis/Megadrive article. I think this should be fixed to flow better grammatically, but I don't really care how that is achieved. Indrian (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Thinking about it more, what about this: Why don't we just get rid of in Japan so the sentence reads "Released in 1988, the Sega Genesis (known as the Sega Mega Drive in Europe and Japan) was Sega's entry into the fourth generation of video game consoles." The fact that it was released in Japan only in 1988 is really not a relevant detail for this article and eliminating that clears up the awkwardness while preserving both names. Indrian (talk) 15:20, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. Sergecross73 msg me 15:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

That's an acceptable compromise. Thanks for taking the time to consider my points, Indrian. 87.81.143.227 (talk) 17:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Tokyo Game Show

The article currently states that the Saturn was first showcased at the 1994 Tokyo Game Show. However, I'm now reading an EGM article from August 1994 which says the Saturn debuted at the 1994 Tokyo Toy Show. Moreover, Wikipedia's own article on the Tokyo Game Show asserts that the convention didn't have its first show until 1996 (though I must note that the source they've cited doesn't actually back up this claim). I'd like to confirm the information in EGM before jumping to make corrections, since it wouldn't be hard for a typo to turn "Tokyo Game Show" into "Tokyo Toy Show".

So, can anyone offer any more clues on whether or not there was a Tokyo Game Show back in 1994, whether the Saturn might have been displayed at a 1996 Tokyo Toy Show, or anything else that might sort out this discrepancy?--Martin IIIa (talk) 01:27, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a massive blunder. You are completely correct--a typo turned "Toy Show" into "Game Show". Although I did not add this citation, I should have caught the error during the previous FAC, when a reviewer noticed the magazine--EGM²--had been mistaken for the standard Electronic Gaming Monthly. I'll fix it up--and thank you! TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, this is the only citation in the article I feel uncomfortable using. Every magazine I added I either have in my possession, found scans of online or from JimmyBlackwing, or got in PDF format from Sega-16 forum user Sheath. The EGM² interview is basically cheating, because although it was partially scanned here and I'm sure the transcript is accurate, the relevant bit isn't actually scanned. That's unless Indrian actually has a copy of the magazine, which I doubt. Of course, I am as complicit in this as anyone, because I added the Okamura quote in bold, and never raised any concerns about this before now--for the obvious reason that the interview contains very significant information we are unlikely to get anywhere else. Still, on reflection I feel compelled to leave this note here, to assuage one of the only parts of this effort that still troubles me.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm glad you were able to clear this up so quickly.--Martin IIIa (talk) 18:04, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Game Informer article

I've been reading up on the Saturn launch, including a helpful article in EGM which includes the list of titles available at the North American launch. As I went to add that info to this article, I noticed that it contradicts the already cited Game Informer article. Given that the EGM article was written right after the launch and so must have come from first-hard information, I'm relying upon it rather than the Game Informer article, which was compiled from (in the author's own words) "Leonard Herman's Phoenix: The Fall & Rise of Videogames, Wikipedia, Midwest Gaming Classic co-founder Martin Goldberg, and various Internet sources." Moreover, I noticed that the Saturn launch lineup isn't the only one the GI article got wrong. It lists Raiden as a launch title for the Jaguar (close, but nope), and despite listing no less than three 3DO launch games, it overlooks the one game that actually was available at the 3DO's launch, Crash 'n' Burn. So... should we remove the Game Informer article as unreliable?--Martin IIIa (talk) 15:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

• Sounds good to me. That article appears to have used some pretty dodgy sources. Nice catch! Indrian (talk) 16:44, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

EGM doesn't say there were only seven, it just lists seven. The reference to "a couple of Sega Sports titles such as Worldwide Soccer and NHL All-Star Hockey" leaves open the possibility that Pebble Beach Golf Links was also available. Even though I should have looked at EGM more carefully, I saw no reason to doubt GI's list because they covered Pebble Beach in their first round of Saturn reviews in July 1995.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:24, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Also of note is this Sega of America press release from May 19, 1995, which states: "Currently, Sega Saturn is accompanied by six launch titles including Virtua Fighter–which is free with every Sega Saturn unit and included in the box–Daytona USA, Panzer Dragoon, Worldwide Soccer and Pebble Beach Golf Links. I'm not so sure that Bug! or NHL Hockey were launch titles.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:55, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

EGM was wrong–NHL was definitely not available for launch. GamePro, August 1995, page 82, says the game is still "coming soon". Now we just need to debunk Bug!, which EGM already casts doubt upon by not reviewing it in July alongside the other launch games, instead covering the game's showing at E3.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:00, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Phew, I hate it when sources get contradictory. I much appreciate your speaking up though, TheTimesAreAChanging.

About the GI review of Pebble Beach Golf Links, are you sure that the review wasn't based on the Japanese version of the game? Pebble Beach is certainly a likely candidate for a launch game but I'd like to be absolutely sure.

I found the issue of GamePro in which NHL All-Star Hockey is reviewed - November 1995. Very puzzling, since as I said the EGM article was written after the launch, so there's no reasonable way they could have made a mistake about the launch lineup. I'll definitely keep an eye out for any possible explanation for this error as I continue my gaming magazine reading; with any luck, EGM eventually printed a retraction of some sort.

EGM not reviewing Bug! in July is meaningless; they don't review Daytona USA, Worldwide Soccer, or Pebble Beach Golf Links in that issue either. The thing to keep in mind is that it was a surprise launch, so even if EGM were inclined to review every Saturn launch game, they may well not have had time to do so before the issue went to press.--Martin IIIa (talk) 20:09, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, believe me, I know how meaningless it is in isolation (although EGM July 1995 does have "Team Reviews" of all three games you listed on page 114), and that's why I said we still needed to debunk Bug! However, Bug! doesn't seem to be commonly described as a launch game in any other source, and neither GamePro nor Game Informer were able to review it until August or September either, so it seems far more likely by process of elimination that the already-released-in-Japan (and reviewed with other launch games) Clockwork Knight was in fact the sixth launch title alluded to in SoA's press release. (I'd also have to take that press release as fairly ironclad proof of Pebble Beach's launch status.) GamePro, June 1995, page 29 does indicate that Sega announced VF, Worldwide Soccer, Pebble Beach, Clockwork Knight, Daytona, Panzer Dragoon, and Bug! as seven of ten anticipated first-party launch titles for "Saturnday" in September, so this could explain the discrepancy if Bug! wasn't quite ready in time for the surprise launch.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:43, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Yep, I just stumbled on those "Team Reviews" myself... Sorry about that. EGM reviewing sports games separately was something that started just a few issues before the Saturn launch, so I keep forgetting they do that. However, I think there's still a plausible reason why, if EGM, GamePro, and Game Informer didn't have time to immediately review every game included in the surprise launch, they would have picked Bug! as the one to leave for next month. First of all, all the other games we've mentioned are localizations of games which were already released for the Saturn in Japan, meaning that gaming journalists had already had plenty of time to familiarize themselves with them. Bug!, on the other hand, originated in the USA, so up until the launch they had only been able to see unfinished betas of the game. Secondly, Bug! is a very long and difficult game, whereas with the others it's possible to view nearly all of the game's content in an hour or less, especially when you've already had the chance to master the Japanese and/or arcade versions.--Martin IIIa (talk) 17:00, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Request for intro changes

1) Saturn failure factor In the intro it is said that the 'cancellation of Sonic X-Treme was one of the factors of its failure in the west'. However I must stress, I personally believe that the Sonic X-Treme cancellation was a low-level factor, and that the biggest reason of its failure was its surprise May 95 launch. From what I've seen so far, the Sonic cancellation is not often considered as the main reason of the failure, but rather the early western launch. I am considering either changing it to refer to the surprise launch or removing it altogether.

2) Success in Japan There isn't much mentioning that the Saturn was highly successful in Japan. It only says that it initially sold well, but there's much more than that. After researching I can conclude that it had high success there, and even sold better than N64. This is definitely worth mentioning in the intro. I am thinking of writing this:

However in Japan the Saturn was a success story, where it was strongly marketed, received many exclusive games, and outsold the N64.<ref>http://realotakugamer.com/exploring-the-sega-saturn-1-an-introduction</ref><ref>http://segabits.com/blog/2014/11/22/sega-saturns-20th-anniversary-celebrating-decades-of-arcade-perfection/</ref>

I'd like your thoughts on these two matters. If there's enough support I'll make these changes. Thanks. --G&CP (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

No, the Saturn was a failure even in Japan, as Sega's overall share of the market was even smaller than it had been with the Mega Drive. At best, Japanese software sales were high enough on the limited install base to allow Sega to eke out a profit. But the Saturn barely outsold the N64, and calling it "highly successful" is ridiculous. Your sources are unreliable and your original research is irrelevant. You're also one of the suspected Jakandsig socks who slipped through the cracks, and I think it's highly likely you're guilty. While Red Phoenix put what I felt was a slightly undue emphasis on the importance of the lack of a proper Sonic game, the article as currently written accurately reflects what reliable sources say. Making changes to the intro is also rarely a good idea if you are doing it to make a point and have contributed nothing to the body.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Number one is entirely anecdotal, and contrary to the actual sourced content available. Mascot-based platformers were the most popular type of game back then, and the Sonic franchise was held in much higher regard in the 90s. Their trademark series not getting a release in a major genre at the time was definitely a major factor.
• Number two - As I said in the edit summaries, you should not be adding any content to the WP:LEAD that requires a source, and those are obscure/niche fansites, you need much better sources, especially in s high profile, WP:FA. Sergecross73 msg me 02:47, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Distribution in Brazil and Korea

I wonder if it should be mentioned somewhere in the article Tectoy handled the Saturn in Brazil while Samsung did in Korea, or is that redunant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.68.95 (talk) 18:03, 9 November 2015 (UTC)