Talk:Roller derby/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Modern Athletic Derby Endeavor

Without a reliable secondary source, this section should be removed. The only source I can find is the org's website, and the section read like PR before. Somebody braver than me want to delete it right away?--Nemonoman (talk) 19:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Done on the grounds that no sources, no idea of location, and the only location is New Jersey. Given the sport is international, singling out New Jersey seems yes. --LauraHale (talk) 01:41, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but any thoughts about #Associations section getting too big? Basically, I really think the whole section can be trimmed down to a single, terse paragraph. The history and details about each association belong in the articles about those associations. Please comment there. —mjb (talk) 23:16, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I recognize the desire to Be Bold, and I feel your pain, MJB -- You did a bold thing in cutting the associations section. I am concerned that the influence of WFTDA is not adequately represented now. Maybe it needs to be better integrated into the Contemporary Derby section, but more needs to be said about its impact on the sport, IMO. A link to main article WFTDA seems like a kindness to readers who wish more info. I'll be thinking about this over the next couple of days; I hope the senior editors will think about it too. --Nemonoman (talk) 22:49, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Extra MADE sources include pages discussing MADE's involvement in CCRE and information about MADE teams in Puerto Rico from Vicious Circle Magazine, the official magazine of MADE. What 'requirements' are necessary to consider an association legitimate? http://blog.nj.com/roller-derby/2011/08/collosal_coaster_roller_derby.html http://www.ccderbyexpo.com/ http://viciouscirclemag.com/2011/08/04/made-in-puerto-rico-hosts-clinic-with-special-guest/ http://viciouscirclemag.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.91.153 (talk) 02:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If they are only Puerto Rico, they aren't worth mentioning in the article. I'd say for an article like this, you'd want the association to have international membership OR have membership in excess of 1,000 members across at least twenty-five leagues. --LauraHale (talk) 03:03, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I hate to be short, but you clearly have not done any research if you believe MADE is only in Puerto Rico. MADE is prevalent all along the Eastern coast AND is in Puerto Rico. MADE consists of over 30 leagues in the USA and PR. In constrast, the MRDA only has 16 leagues and is not international (according to their wiki page). OSDA's wiki page cites they only has 6 member leagues. The "Roller Derby" page is not the "WFTDA" page and as the largest co-ed association in the country it has right to be included prominently on the wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain jim1 (talk • contribs) 18:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I based my comments based on what was said here and based on the sources provided. If you could help provide those sources which include membership totals around the world, then it would be great. An American only association is not going to end up in the article, because it creates bias issues towards the United States. It makes more sense to link to Federation International de Roller Sports and talk about how many roller derby leagues enjoy the support of their national federations for roller sport as that has an international, non-America focus. The article as it exists largely focuses on the women's roller derby, and the re-incarnated sport. If you're unsatisfied with the focus of the article being largely exclusive towards the definition of roller derby around the modern women's sport, I suggest you open an article Request for Comment, and ask how the sport should be defined. You can also create an article like other sports do when their gender is not represented much on the main article. Examples: Men's netball, Women's basketball. An American only organisation is just not relevant to an article on the global game unless the article has sections title "Roller derby in the United States", which is another fine article for you to create and mention made on. --LauraHale (talk) 19:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Puerto Rico is part of the United States. Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens at birth. 74.69.113.222 (talk) 17:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

"Bouts normally start with the umpires conducting a formal equipment check in this manner."

I'm not very good at wiki in general so don't bite me too hard. I just wanted to bring up a wording issue in the blurb under the video for the equipment check of surley griffins in canberra. Referee's or Officials are never called umpires. Or at least not under the WFTDA guidelines. http://wftda.com/officiating — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.150.115.207 (talk) 01:51, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

"The first jammer ... wins the status of lead jammer for the remainder of the jam. "

Maybe the Blue Ridge Roller Girls play by different rules, but it was my impression that if the "non-lead" jammer succeeds in passing the lead janner, lead status changes hands. Otherwise how are do jams end with points scored on both sides and why are the refs clarifying by hand signals which jammer is the lead? I'm just a fan, not an expert, and learning more about the rules all the time, so help me out here, smart people! --Nemonoman (talk) 02:34, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Also: If the original jammer was the lead jammer, the lead position is forfeited upon a jammer swap.--suggests that the lead status is not for "the remainder of the jam". --Nemonoman (talk) 02:36, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Canberra Roller Derby League (2 Apr 2011). "The Bout". Canberra Roller Derby League 2011 Bout Guide. 12 Mar 2011 (Surly Griffins vs Black N Blue Belles). Canberra, Australia: Canberra Roller Derby League: 1.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link) is a source (this particular page is reprinted in all bout guides) and it says "The Jammer's goal is to pass all of the opposing Blockers. After the initial pass is completed Jammers score one point for every legal pass of an opposing player. No points are scored on the Jammer's initial pass of the pack. The first Jammer to pass through the pack legally is the lead Jammer and earns the right to end the jam, which they can do at any time by putting heir hands repeatedly on their hips. A Blocker's aim is to prevent the opposing team's Jammer getting through, while helping their own Jammer score points." Hope that clarifies things for you? --LauraHale (talk) 02:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry no, Laura, thanks for the reply: lead jammer for the remainder of the jam.. My question: jammer 1 does the lap, gets the lead jammer designation. Laps a few opposing blockers for a few points. Jammer 2 puts on some speed and passes jammer 1. What is the status now?

It's been my (fan) impression that jammer 2 is now lead jammer, and can score points/call the jam. If so jammer 1 was not lead jammer for the remainder of the jam. You see the question??--Nemonoman (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

If the lead jammer is passed or goes to the sin bin, you get a new lead jammer. Both jammers can score points. The only real advantage to being the lead jammer is you can call off the jam. --LauraHale (talk) 03:39, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, no. Once a jammer becomes lead, the other jammer can not get it, lead status does not change for the duration of the jam. Both jammers are capable of collecting points after lapping the pack the first time. The first jammer to go through cleanly - without incurring infractions - is lead. The other jammer can pass her, but does not become lead. (Often, if the lead jammer is passed, she will then call the jam so that the non-lead, who presumably is now closer to the pack, does not pick up points either.) If no jammer gets through the pack cleanly on their first pass, there is no lead jammer, and the jam goes the full two minutes. If the lead jammer goes to the penalty box, the remaining jammer is not given lead, so again, the jam goes the full two minutes, unless the lead's penalty expires first and she returns to the track in time to call it herself. In the event of a star pass - the jammer passing the helmet cover to her pivot, who now assumes the role of jammer - if that initial jammer was lead, the lead status does not transfer with the helmet cover. I do believe, however, that if neither jammer had been lead at that point, the pivot who has become jammer now has the ability to become lead. But you are right that the difference between being lead and non-lead is that the lead jammer has the ability to call off the jam when she sees fit. This is all covered in the WFTDA rule set, which most modern leagues follow in some form even if they themselves are not WFTDA members. Echoedmyron (talk) 13:49, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks E. Can you please validate my understanding of the above?

• Lead jammer status is confirmed once and only once.

Yes.Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• The only play significance to being lead jammer is that player's ability to call the jam

Correct.Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• Points may be scored by either jammer regardless of lead status.

Correct.Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• The lead jammer may at times be behind the opposing jammer and therefore not in point-scoring mode.

Yes and no. Yes, the lead jammer may fall behind the other. But both jammers can collect points regardless of order they are in. After completing the initial pass through the pack, a jammer will then collect a point for each opponent passed. This includes people in the penalty box, who are counted for each time the pack on the track is passed. Both jammers can be collecting points at same time, for example, if they are both moving through pack at same time. Now, if the two of them move forward and back, they don't get points for passing each other - they get them for passing the other jammer after completing a full lap after passing them. Collecting five points for passing the pack and the other jammer is commonly called a "grand slam".Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• Regardless of position in the pack, the original lead jammer may call the jam

Correct.Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• Without a clean first pass, neither jammer may be designated as lead.

Yes.Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm unclear about what qualifies as "clean first pass?" --Nemonoman (talk) 14:13, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

By "clean" I mean that no penalties are incurred along the way. Penalties include cutting the track, illegal blocking, etc.

This is commonly believed to be true (and is in most announcer rules summary scripts), but it isn't actually the case. The rules clearly state that the lead jammer is the first jammer to legally pass every skater on the other team during the first pass. If she passes someone illegally, she has the option of repassing that skater legally and attaining lead jammer. Even with a minor penalty. Additionally, a jammer who false starts but yields (which is an Illegal Procedure minor) can be called lead jammer if she clears the pack first. Assuming she yielded to the opposing jammer. Of course had she not yielded, she'd likely be in the penalty box for an IP major, and thereby be ineligible for lead jammer anyways. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TimBRoy (talk • contribs) 03:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

@Tim -- so this article is supposed be "encyclopedic" -- can you say that in ten words or less? I ask this sincerely. Maybe "clean first pass" with a note -- but maybe it's just TMI (Too Much Information). --Nemonoman (talk) 12:24, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The way it is currently stated is factually incorrect. You CAN commit minor penalties (hence not a "clean first pass") and still become lead jammer. A more correct but terse way to put this is "The lead jammer is the first jammer to pass all opposing blockers legally in the first pass." Note that it doesn't say or imply that penalties disqualify the jammer from becoming lead. Which they only do if the jammer fails to repass (or yield in the case of a false start). I'll try changing it to that effect now. TimBRoy (talk) 04:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Tim. I missed that obvious detail! Echoedmyron (talk) 13:52, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I think one of my points of confusion is that when a different jammer moves into scoring position, the announcers will yell "So and So is the new lead jammer!" Which raises the point that a jammer "in the lead is not, from E writes above, the "lead jammer", just the jammer in the lead. A problem when a term of art utilizes a word as common as "lead". Again I ask for validation that I understand this situation "lead jammer" is NOT EQUAL to "jammer in the lead"??--Nemonoman (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Now that sounds weird. Where are you watching derby, and what rule set are they using? I wonder if perhaps they are not using WFTDA rules, it's possible. Or that there is confusion by the announcers, or maybe you have misheard them. Being "in the lead" is not the same as being Lead Jammer. Echoedmyron (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I may be adding to the confusion here, but I follow a league that has both flat and banked tracks. WFTDA rules are used for the flat track, so lead jammer status cannot change even if the other jammer manages to pass the lead jammer. On the banked track, which uses a different set of rules, lead jammer status can change if the other jammer manages to pass the lead jammer. CatPath (talk) 18:36, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes - banked track rules are different. To follow up with Nem about a conversation on another talk page, this is part of why this article should not be too WFTDA-centric. There are other forms and styles of roller derby out there. Perhaps a debate on what constitutes "regular" derby, and how "other forms" differ might be an idea. I apologize if I have confused Nem by supplying answers that may be particular to one form of roller derby and not others.Echoedmyron (talk) 19:13, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

@Echo: I very much appreciate your generous and thorough explanations. I'm supposed to be an OK WP editor in general, but am only another idiot roller-derby fan. I understand only about enough to know when to start cheering. I think I have misunderstood a lot about point-scoring. I'm not sure that our team's announcers help matters much. One thing that now becomes clearer is why they make a point about a "grand slam" -- a jammer scoring 5 points in a single circuit, by lapping everybody I guess including the other team's jammer. PS call me Nemo. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:39, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Just a technical note, to obtain lead jammer status the jammer must pass ALL blockers legally (including her team mates) not just opposing blockers. http://wftda.com/rules/20100526/section/3.4 124.150.115.207 (talk) 04:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC) Krug

Penalties section inaccurate

Under the penalties section: "A player with seven major penalties is ejected from the game." This is incorrect I would rephrase to "A skater who has served 7 penalty minutes, fouls out and is removed from the game." I'm not sure about the original reference used for this but http://wftda.com/rules/20100526/section/7.5.1 clearly outlines that it is a combination of majors and minors and that the term is fouling out. 124.150.115.207 (talk) 02:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC) Krug

Agreed. The cited source got it wrong (as many league web sites tend to). I'd avoid "served 7 penalty minutes" as the skater fouls out upon receiving the seventh minute in the box and another skater skater serves in her place. Using "ejected" to refer to fouling out is a bit of a throwback to the old WFTDA 3.1 rules, I believe. TimBRoy (talk) 09:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The photo in the History section

The caption should change verbiage to the prevalent term of the day, "game" rather than "bout." Regardless of that, the caption is pretty clearly incorrect. That's not a photo from a game, it's a staged photo. Note the downed skater smiling. Any photo of women skating roller derby in the 1950s where they aren't wearing tights is posed or staged. This particular photo is used quite a bit (likely because it's in the public domain). All skaters (both genders) wore tights with shorts over them when playing. Female skaters tended to be photographed for the press without their tights on so that male readers might have their interest piqued by the sight of a bit of leg. TimBRoy (talk) 02:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Please fix? :) --LauraHale (talk) 11:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by citation, not truth. TimBRoy's assertion constitutes original research —we have to dance with them that brungs ya, and what brings us are the citations, provenance and all. Given that framework, there's nothing to fix. kencf0618 (talk) 05:18, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Strategy vis-à-vis tactics

If anyone wants to parse the two, albeit without the subsection thus becoming too cumbersome, feel free! kencf0618 (talk) 05:29, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Change first paragraph?

The 1st paragraph states that its played on every inhabitable continent. I didn’t see any Antarctica located roller derby leagues though through the reference link and people do inhabit Antarctica. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.161.238.19 (talk) 22:12, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Officials section

Has anyone else noticed that the 'officials' section of the article is now the longest section in the article, and is totally uncited? --Nemonoman (talk) 14:26, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd noticed that earlier but been too lazy to do anything about it. I've now added several citations of the rules and of standard practices, and I've removed most things I couldn't be cite. Unfortunately a lot of the details of roller derby officiating are spread around by word of mouth and weren't in either source I used. (E.g., the duties of lineup trackers, penalty wranglers, and outside whiteboards.) Their removal has shortened the section quite nicely, but someone may want to go through and add information from the WFTDA Officiating Manual. -Ornithopter (talk) 05:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Is there enough information that it would be a valid time to put the rules in a daughter article? --LauraHale (talk) 06:03, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of an article on the rules, but I'm a bit doubtful as to whether there's enough out there. Perhaps it would be worth starting an article, on the understanding that it might be merged back here if there's not enough material. Warofdreams talk 13:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Reverting changes by Orangetiki

Conflict of interest disclosure: I am a WFTDA-certified roller derby referee.

Orangetiki made three changes:

• Specifying that if roller derby is played in the Olympics, it will be under USARS rules.
  • There is reason to believe that this is true. However, I could find no source saying that Olympic roller derby (if it happens in 2020 at all) would be played under USARS rules, and the reference Orangetiki provided has nothing to do with the 2020 Olympics, being an invitation for teams to apply to this year's regional USARS roller derby tournaments.
• Removing a true statement (with reference) about the prevalence of the WFTDA rules, and changing "[The WFTDA ruleset] "is used by the vast majority of leagues" to "used by some leagues" in what I assume is an attempt to downplay the importance of the WFTDA rules in modern roller derby.
• Adding a redundant clarifcation that the "Game play" section of the article is based on WFTDA rules.

As none of these adds value to the article and some even subtract it, I have reverted the changes. -Ornithopter (talk) 20:17, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Penalties

This article does not mention what the penalties are when a girl smacks, punches or elbows another contestant. Or does the rule vary league to league? - Mdriver1981 (talk) 19:04, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

This article does not go into such detail. Most leagues, as noted in the article, follow an governing organization's rule set, such as the WFTDA, MADE, etc; full rule sets for those organizations would offer that level of detail. The WFTDA rule set is pages upon pages long, so it will not be introduce in full here. But for the record, that rule set does list illegal use of forearms as a penalty (the degree of impact affecting what sort of penalty is assessed), and punching would be covered under misconducts. Because this article is about roller derby in general, but historical and current, and reflects the fact that there is more than one governing organization, it is impractical to list rule variances from one org to another within this article. Echoedmyron (talk) 19:28, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

"Most violent sport"?

I find this line to be a very odd part of the article:

Contemporary roller derby is also the most violent sport played by and administered by women.

For one, contemporary roller derby is one of the few (if not the only) sports played by and administered by women, so this is not a particularly notable achievement. Further, is there some objective standard of violence to which other sports are held? I can't load the referenced article in the citation to see what it has to say about it (http://jce.sagepub.com/content/39/4/359)

I'd propose removing this sentence, as it adds a very misleading characterization of the sport as being "violent". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cwage (talk • contribs) 06:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The roller derby I am familiar with is violent. I often see girls elbowing, smacking and sometimes punching other girls on track. The line in question here is false though.- Mdriver1981 (talk) 17:16, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Safety concerns

I move that the paragraph on safety concerns be removed. IT is a full contact sport like hockey or or basket ball and I notice that neither one of those pages have safety concern paragraphs. It has little to nothing to do with the sport of roller derby itself. Full contact sports can be dangerous. That should require common sense not an encyclopaedic entry. 108.247.104.253 (talk) 03:59, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. While not wanting to overstate the safety risks, these have attracted significant attention and are covered in some detail in various reliable sources. Warofdreams talk 16:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

2020 Olympics

I know it sounds very good to the community when we mention that Roller Derby is being considered for the 2020 Olympics. The problem is that it is not true. A few media outlets, including some mentioned here, completely misinterpreted the information provided to them and practically invented this "fact". I have seen so many wrong articles based on the information on this page.

The reality is that during the 123th IOC session in Durban, South Africa last February (mentioned in the article), it was announced that roller sports, not roller derby, would be under consideration for 2020. In fact, roller derby was not accepted as an official discipline by the Federation Internationale of Roller Sports (FIRS) until December of 2011, many months after the candidacy for roller sports was submitted to the IOC.

I reviewed the original documents submitted to the IOC for 2016 and 2020 (not public yet) , both of which contain proposals for inclusion of one single discipline: speed skating.

The IOC typically reviews the candidate sports for inclusion 7 years before the corresponding games. Candidacy documents must be submitted two years before that. This means that the documents for 2020 were submitted in 2011 (when derby was not a discipline yet) and will be reviewed in February next year. The official presentation was actually yesterday. The USARS Roller Derby Committee will be working on trying to guide FIRS to add roller derby on the next candidacy documents for the 2024 Games, expected to be submitted in 2015.

If nobody has a problem, I would like to modify the paragraph that mentions the 2020 Olympics so that people get educated in this subject and rumors are avoided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fregueiro (talk • contribs) 09:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree that a correction is in order. The difficulty is in finding reliable sources to use. As you say, numerous (clearly not very reliable) sources have claimed that roller derby is under consideration for the 2020 Olympics, while the actual documents relating to the 2020 bid remain private - let alone anything relating to the 2024 games. Perhaps, until there is something (such as a statement from FIRS or USARS) clarifying the situation, it might be better to simply remove mention of the Olympics from this article - but that would be a shame, as it is interesting and seems likely to be added back in by someone who has seen the incorrect sources. Warofdreams talk 16:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

On the above note, if I know the editing pattern of roller derby articles, removing the mention of the Olympics outright will be more certain to get it re-inserted on a regular basis. But all things considered, since things are sure to be frequently reverted in either case, it may be safer to remove it outright for now, awaiting a better source, OR, leaving it in with the more accurate "roller sports" term, along with the caveat that this has been interpreted by many to mean roller derby specifically. Echoedmyron (talk) 17:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Inasmuch as Wikipedia is citation-driven, we should wield our citations accordingly, but we use what we've got. And what's private and proprietary for institutional reasons doesn't qualify. It is an interesting question, though, which should be vetted further. kencf0618 (talk) 03:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

New image

"Skeater Beater" (#722) the "Jammer" for Chippewa Valley Rollergirls

Hi there, I've just been given this excellent image by Kyle Cassidy. I admit I know absolutely nothing of the sport, so wouldn't want to start swapping images around in the article. Is this perhaps a shot that could find a place? Thanks. J Milburn (talk) 10:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a nice picture of a game in progress; perhaps we should think about which would be the best image for the infobox at the top (there are quite a few good ones to choose from). Unfortunately, it doesn't illustrate any particular tactic or position especially well. Although the jammer is nicely framed and executing an interesting move, the stars on her helmet aren't visible. The two skaters in black may be forming a sausage, but it's not clear whether that is the case. The team doesn't currently have an article; I'm not clear who their opponents are. Basically, it's a nice picture, but what would really benefit the topic are good shots of notable teams and players, particular tactics and positions (e.g. pivot, various referee positions). Warofdreams talk 14:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I concur. Appropriately cropped it would serve quite nicely in the infofox, but as you say there are quite a few good ones to choose from. This comes down to an aesthetic/informational decision, really, given that header photographs have to strike a balance between being generic enough, and informative enough, and beautiful enough. kencf0618 (talk) 19:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

That said, I've replaced the crotch shot. kencf0618 (talk) 04:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Governance and Organization section issues.

Finding good sources for the following is likely to be difficult. A fairly large number of Canadian leagues have left Roller Sport Canada for CWRDA (Canadian Women's Roller Derby Association). The number of RSC leagues is actually fairly small (but is barely documented on the org's web site). I've no idea what is being referred to as a "national league" for Canada. CWRDA is more of a governing body that exists above local leagues. Casting organizations like CWRDA and WFTDA as leagues might help the sport make sense to neophytes, but I'd posit that it's factually incorrect.

I'd probably group Canada with the USA as far as leagues wanting to affiliate at the grass-roots level. Things like this tend to be dealt with quietly and/or on message boards. Finding leagues detailing why they left one organization for another to the press is not terribly easy. TimBRoy (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

For that matter, CWRDA is largely being replaced with membership in RDAC (Roller Derby Association of Canada), who has been staging geographical tournaments all year. Echoedmyron (talk) 11:59, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

RDAC is CWRDA with a new name. CWRDA is not a separate existing entity. Muddying the waters a bit further, they have a separate-but-connected entity called RDIC (Roller Derby Insurance of Canada) which just handles derby insurance. TimBRoy (talk) 21:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Organization size defined by affiliation or rules practiced

I think we need to make a distinction between affiliation and practice when it comes to describing the size of an organization. The following paragraph is inaccurate if we consider affiliation as the parameter to define "largest":

"The largest governing body for the sport is the Women's Flat Track Derby Association, with 176 Full Member Leagues, and 119 Apprentice Leagues."

The number of clubs officially affiliated to USA Roller Sports is 366 (http://www.flattrackstats.com/teams | http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Roller-Sports/Resources/Member-Lists.aspx). Just like WFTDA, USARS members pay annual dues and receive member benefits and insurance from the organization. USARS has provided membership and insurance services to derby teams even before the WFTDA existed, since the very beginning when Texas started the new era of derby. If the article is portraying affiliation, then the paragraph should be modified to:

"The largest governing body for the sport is the USA Roller Sports (USARS), with 366 member clubs."

Since WFTDA fans will most likely overrule this change and would suggest to define size based on the number of leagues practicing under the WFTDA rules, then let me explain why I believe it is not a fair assessment. The WFTDA rules have existed for 8 years and for a long time they were the only rules that were available. A couple of years ago, FIRS, the International Governing Body for all Roller Sports, decided to finally recognize Roller Derby as an official discipline after a petition (and presentation) made by USARS in Paris. This move allowed USARS to increment their involvement in Roller Derby and allocate official resources to the sport, although as I mentioned before, they already had hundreds of member clubs. When USARS created their official Sports Committee, they were told that FIRS was interested in supporting the sport for future inclusion to the Olympics but they laid out a number of needed improvements, one of which was the need to modify the rules to make them more dynamic and fan-friendly.

The USARS rules were released a year and a half ago and were first used in a tournament during the USARS Regionals late last year. The second release of the rules came out in January this year. So they are really new. That said, it is not possible for anyone to track precisely how many USARS member clubs are using them. We know for a fact that there is a good number of clubs who have tried the rules and are in the process of switching. We also know that are clubs who play both rules and mix their calendars. This year is particularly challenging since a lot of the clubs already had contracts for games and they were done under the WFTDA rules, although the clubs now play USARS. This is the case for many leagues and this will continue to change in that direction. But the process will be relatively slow since, unlike WFTDA, USARS does not force their members to play under their rules.Fregueiro (talk) 21:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Worth noting: USARS is limited to teams in the United States only at this time. WFTDA is world-wide. Also, while information on the USARS website is lacking - there's a couple of 404s that come up when trying to view info about applying - the impression I am getting is that one needs to just fill out the forms for membership. There's a more involved process certainly for WFTDA beyond just forms. And if USARS doesn't "force" (oh! the horror!) its members to use its own ruleset, I fail to see how USARS can therefore qualify as a more significant governing body for the sport. Of course WFTDA teams use their rules for sanctioned games. Does the NFL allow teams to play games using say the CFL's rules? The whole point of being under the governance of an organization is that you follow a standardized ruleset. With that in mind, how exactly do you propose to back up this proposed change with reliable sources that document actual numbers in a realistic manner? As noted, it is likely not possible to track exactly how many leagues use which ruleset compared to another. Echoedmyron (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Having reliable sources is vital. My impression is that many USARS members don't play under their ruleset, and are members principally or solely for the insurance benefits. This could well change, but we can't pre-empt what might happen. USARS certainly deserves mention, and has its own article where more detail can go, but the WFTDA is currently particularly influential given the number of non-members which use its rules - not only the MRDA, but pretty much every league outside North America and most within it. Pretty much by definition, the USARS rules are a national ruleset, with the numerous other national organisations all representing leagues playing under the WFTDA/MRDA ruleset. Warofdreams talk 23:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

My proposal is based on the distinction between membership and rules. Why are you disregarding that? Saying that you need reliable sources to confirm that USARS has more members than the WFTDA is just trying to avoid my comment as well, since you are providing less sources (only the WFTDA site) to show their membership numbers. Where are your reliable sources for the claim that WFTDA is the largest organization. I provided two sources, including one that is independent. So again, if you are saying that a group is larger, that is measured by membership, not by practitioners. The number of NFL member teams is not defined by who plays by the NFL rules (which is also used in amateur leagues, semi-pro leagues, etc.), it is defined by the number of franchises they have. Regardless of whether USARS is only in the USA, it has more members than any other organization in the world. How do you counter that fact? Fregueiro (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:4C0:1D:4867:37DE:1CFC:F67E (talk)

I'm not disputing the number of members which you give, the references look fine for an uncontentious fact like this. With USARS having slightly more members than the WFTDA (when counting apprentice leagues), it makes sense to mention USARS, as I say, and if you would like to mention that it has the most members, I have no objection to that, just that - where we can find reliable references - we should also discuss the relationship of the members to organisation, as bare membership figures do not tell the whole story. Warofdreams talk 17:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Team members and roster

According to 1.1.1 of the rules published on March 1, 2014 "at most, 14 skaters may be on the roster for a specific game." Five skaters participate in a jam. I propose the infobox under Team Members should be updated to perhaps say "5 per side (14 on roster)" instead of the present "20 (14 in a game)." --Khvmty (talk) 20:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

As written currently I support this.Echoedmyron (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose we merge Roller derby in the United States into Roller derby and List of roller derby leagues. This article doesn't seem to have any US-specific content that wouldn't be better included in Roller Derby, and the list on that page also creates a duplicate with List of roller derby leagues.

Respectfully, Meekohi (talk) 05:09, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I think it might make sense to merge Roller derby in the United States into List of roller derby leagues. The first one is basically a list of the U.S. leagues, with some additional material that could also be merged in, and it more or less duplicates the U.S. section of the second one. But I think it would be a lot better to leave Roller derby as a separate article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:59, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with Mudwater above - I don't see anything in Roller derby in the United States that doesn't already exist in the more comprehensive articles List of roller derby leagues, Roller Derby or even List of roller derby associations (for governance). I don't see the need to have a spin-off article for just the US. It just becomes another article to fall out of date fairly quickly, as membership numbers change. I will further note that "List of roller derby leagues" is focused on leagues who have attained enough notability to receive their own articles largely, with only a couple of exceptions for leagues for whom there is no article yet a decent source exists. The lists of leagues in "Roller derby in the United States" in many cases are not linked to articles, and the charts contain many duplications within, as multiple Metro areas lead to the same league in some cases. Basically those charts are pretty useless. (And with only 12 edits in the past two years very much out of date anyway.) We may not even need to merge so much as purge that article. Echoedmyron (talk) 22:39, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
• Well, then there's also:
  • Roller derby in Australia
  • Roller derby in Mexico
  • Roller derby in Germany
  • Roller derby in the United Kingdom
  • Roller derby in Canada

See also Template:Roller derby by country. I don't think it's a problem to keep this. wbm1058 (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Needs the addition of roller derby as a political act

The article lacks information regarding derby as being subversively political by nature. Here are some sources I think the article could benefit from.

Arafat, Zaina. "POWER JAM: Roller Derby as Political Act." Virginia Quarterly Review, vol. 93, no. 3, Summer2017, pp. 36-59. EBSCOhost, libdatabase.newpaltz.edu/login?url=http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=123906401&site=ehost-live.

Gieseler, Carly. “Derby Drag: Parodying Sexualities in the Sport of Roller Derby.” Sexualities, vol. 17, no. 5-6, 2014, pp. 758–776., doi:10.1177/1363460714531268.

Parry, Diana C. "“Skankalicious”: Erotic Capital in Women's Flat Track Roller Derby." Leisure Sciences, vol. 38, no. 4, Jul-Sep2016, pp. 295-314. EBSCOhost, doi:10.1080/01490400.2015.1113149. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebeccaf1995 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I made a YouTube video...

In reorganizing the section Worldwide amateur female revival, it struck me that "cinéma vérité" is a high-strung way of saying someone made a YouTube video, and that neither this nor a promotional video, even one made at 1000 frames per second, is as generally notable as the paragraph's other topics, a feature film about roller derby and corporate mention of roller derby in mass-media advertisements. I propose to strike the sentence but would like feedback first. Spike-from-NH (talk) 16:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Got no feedback. Am going to just do it. Spike-from-NH (talk) 04:06, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Looks like a valid removal to me. Warofdreams talk 09:31, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Fist fights

Anon has removed the sentence, "Fist fights occur in some leagues." stating that the single citation is from 2006 and that he was unable to find other citations. This seemed like an edit to sanitize the article, but I couldn't find citations either; a quick web search mostly pulls up citations of the negative, or uses of "Fighting" in a team name but not in fact.

However, any sport involving physical contact could lead to fighting — last weekend, I saw trash-talking escalate and end an amateur American football game one minute early — and it would be nice if the article addressed fighting, even to note its rarity, if there is any firm information on it. Spike-from-NH (talk) 12:04, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

I support the removal. We can't say "prove this doesn't currently exist" to justify keeping it in there. If all there is is a 12 year old citation, from the days of the modern rebirth of this sport, it hardly seems useful now. (Barring revising it to say "during the early days of the modern rebirth of the sport, fist fights sometimes occurred", which doesn't seem that worthwhile to be honest.) Not to go all "other stuff exists", but I also don't see a section devoted to fighting in American football. Just because something could happen, doesn't necessarily mean that it would. I've attended over 400 roller derby games in 11 years, and have seen only a single thrown punch in that time, and it was in jest during an exhibition game in those early days (2008). It shouldn't be too difficult to find some citations to support that fighting is not a part of the modern game, and can lead to expulsions / suspensions in organized/sanctioned play. I'll have a look when I have some more time. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:40, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. (And the policy you cite allows a glance to similar articles on the way to making your point.) Any text you could add would be a plus. Spike-from-NH (talk) 22:37, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Box wall

The section I renamed Strategy and tactics mentions the box wall associated with Victorian RDL. However, the tactic is not mentioned in their article; it is mentioned but not explained in a web search I did. Before the weekend, I posted at Talk:Victorian Roller Derby League to ask its editors to add an explanation of its essence and importance. I am inclined to remove this nod to a single league's technique unless more information is forthcoming. Spike-from-NH (talk) 22:37, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

And I have now done so, and other things mentioned in the change summary. Spike-from-NH (talk) 04:56, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Dagestan Collymore

For the record: The article includes a list of typical "derby names", explaining that "These typically use word play with satirical, mock-violent or sexual puns, alliteration, and allusions to pop culture."

Anon today has added a name to the list which, in my opinion, breaks no new ground, except that its allusions might be more cryptic than those already there. I and then Echoedmyron reverted this change when it was asserted three times. (PS--I see that the third edit, which Echoedmyron reverted, was less vanity than overt vandalism. 14:01) I think it is probably a conflict of interest. Anon's Edit Summaries refer to "spectrum of identities" and "intersectionality". Of course some roller derby players use the league or their derby names to flog political issues. That is no reason why the Wikipedia article should do so.

In fact, the article doesn't need a list of example derby names, and if it continues to be a vanity magnet, the article would not miss the list if it were deleted entirely. Spike-from-NH (talk) 13:57, 3 August 2019 (UTC)