Talk:Robert Lindsay, 29th Earl of Crawford

Styles and titles from birth

In a revision of 27 January 2008, User:DBD changed this section's contents from this:

• The Hon Robert Lindsay (1927–1940)
• Lord Balniel (1940–1972)
• The Rt Hon Lord Balniel (1972–1975)
• The Rt Hon The Lord Balniel, PC (January 1975 – December 1975)
• The Rt Hon The Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, PC (1975– )

to this:

• 5 March 1927–8 March 1940: The Hon Robert Lindsay
• 8 March 1940–1972: The Hon Robert Lindsay, called Lord Balniel
• 1972–24 January 1975: The Rt Hon Robert Lindsay, called Lord Balniel
• 24 January–13 December 1975: The Rt Hon The Lord Balniel PC
• 13 December 1975—: The Rt Hon The Earl of Crawford and Balcarres PC

This amendment is wrong for several reasons.

Date of assumption of courtesy title

I remember reading in Debrett's Correct Form that on the death of someone holding a peerage title, the custom is for successors (and successors' relatives) not to assume their new titles until after the funeral of the late holder. The son of the 28th Earl of Crawford would therefore not have assumed the courtesy title Lord Balniel immediately on his father's succession to the earldom on 8 March 1940. I don't know when the 27th Earl's funeral was, so I think the date should stay as 1940 unless someone can be more specific.

Style before 1940

Was he definitely styled "The Hon. Robert Lindsay" rather than "Master of Balniel"? The Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne's heir-apparent (Lord Glamis)'s heir-apparent is styled by courtesy "Master of Glamis"; might not that be the case here too? Citations needed.

Styles vs. substantive titles

DBD is confusing everyday styles with formal styles as used in legal documents. "The Hon." is a courtesy title in this case, so before 1940 his legal style would be "Robert Alexander Lindsay, Esquire, called The Honourable Robert Lindsay". When he held the courtesy title Lord Balniel, he would be "Robert Alexander Lindsay, Master of Crawford, called Lord Balniel", Master being a substantive title for heirs-presumptive to Scottish peerages. On appointment to the Privy Council he would be "The Right Honourable Robert Alexander Lindsay, Master of Crawford, called Lord Balniel", as Rt Hon. is not a courtesy style. And then after his succession to the earldom he would be "The Right Honourable Robert Alexander [no surname], Earl of Crawford" (not "Crawford and Balcarres"; only the senior title is given). This is before even getting as far as the "Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle", "Lord of Her Majesty's Privy Council" etc, all of which would be recited in full in a legal document.

The point of the section is to show how Lord Crawford was generally styled at various periods of his life. The previous state of the section showed this amply, so I would suggest a reversion to it, subject to the need for a citation for before 1940. Opera hat (talk) 16:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted it (even apart from the substantive problems, the new list looked horrible). I'll also have a look at the "Master" issue. Proteus (Talk) 17:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

And I didn't expect the answer to come that quickly! According to Valentine Heywood's British Titles, the son of Lord Balniel is styled "Master of Lindsay". I will change the article accordingly. Proteus (Talk) 17:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks very much. I've added the postnominals for his various knighthoods to the section as well, and added "Master of Lindsay" to the list of courtesy titles in the Peerages of the British Isles. Opera hat (talk) 09:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

life peerage

I wonder why he was given a new life peerage rather than a writ of acceleration as Baron Wigan of Haigh Hall. —Tamfang (talk) 22:51, 22 March 2023 (UTC)