Talk:Portrayal of women in video games

Rewrite needed

This article is in desperate need of a rewrite. It contains only examples without any information about the role of female characters in video games, their perception by players and non-players, or comparisions to portrayals in other media. It's certainly an interesting topic to cover, as I think video games are about the least sexist medium of entertainment, but this article is lacking any kind of quality. Either it is done well, or it should not be covered at all. Because as mentioned, it reads rather sexist against male players and game developers.

I've only recently begun exploring the contribution side of Wiki, but I was excited to find this group, and this article project in particular. I'll work up a decent write up as quickly as I can. Before I hear any groans about n00bs - let me explain: 1) I'm a fulltime freelance writer 2) I have earned my BA in English with a focus on writing and literary theory, heavily focusing on gender criticism 3) I am female 4) I have been a gamer as long as I can remember (first managing job was even at a video game store - Rhino) 5) I have already partially researched this topic for other works Is there anyone willing to work with me a bit if I have any questions on the technical side of things? --LissaRhys (talk) 19:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC) Comment moved to top. --LissaRhys (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.88.124.202 (talk) 16:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

So is there a page about the portrayal of MEN in video games, or is this another example of a double-standard where women being stereotyped is bad (and I totally agree it is) yet it's okay to stereotype men?-Fartnog Buttstinkle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.200.31 (talk) 08:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

That is a good point, though there is no reason why an article could not be made on the portrayal of men in video games. There is already this article and a surprisingly detailed article on gay, lesbian and transsexual characters in video games. I can see no reason why you couldn't do an article about male stereotypes. Remember, the games that are criticized as objectifying women can equally be criticized as portraying men as dumb, trigger-happy muscle men without character depth or wit. This would of course require reliable sources. Comrade Graham (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

in what way does duke nukem 3d encourage you to attack the women? when you kill a woman duke says "damn" and a bunch of angry enemies spawn in —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.203.82 (talk) 12:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Positive according to whom?

The article contains the heading "Positive portayals" and this is a violation of our NPOV principle because it does not say according to whom these portayals are positive and under what criteria. The header should be changed to read "non-sexist portayals" (if we can find such a source) or "Uncontroversial portayals" or something which does not indicate moral judgement by Wikipedia editors. We are here to document what other sources say, and if no source say that these portayals are positive then we shouldn't say so. NerdyNSK (talk) 17:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The article also contains the heading "Negative protrayals". Since "Negative" is such a bad sounding word, why don't we replace it with the more politically correct "non-positive", or "differently positive". Oh, I'm sorry, that would be TOTALLY INSANE AND STUPID! WTF is Wikipedia full of agenda-driven people pretending to be neutral?? Jeff The Riffer (talk) 06:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

The interior writings on the section seem to make it clear that these are just points of view, however you may have a point when it comes to the titles. Maybe, "Claims of posative portrayals" and "Claims of negative portrayals". At any rate we should try and clear this up. I personally vote for my "claims" header, if I don't get any replies in the next two weeks or so I will change it. If anyone has a suggestion or issue after that, post it here. Comrade Graham (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Duke Nukem

The statement that Duke Nukem encourage players to kill women is totally, totally wrong. The game in fact punished players for harming women characters in the game, usually in the form of having an impossible amount of enemies teleport in.

While Duke Nukem may have pushed objectification of women, it never, EVER encouraged violence towards them. GrimmC (talk) 17:32, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, objectified maybe, but not violent. Duke wants to see the strippers, not kill them. I have heard that there was a plot reason for the "sexy females", to distract the aliens or something, and the tied up and captured ones are the alien's fault. Of course that introduces the also controversial idea of mercy killing. Comrade Graham (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

List?

Am surprised this is a stub (given the number of gamers we have on wikipedia). Added various roles and instances (from memory) of female characters under the "roles" section. May be a list could be made ? Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem with such a scheme is based on what criteria is a game notable for this list? Is it fine if it only has a female protagonist like Tomb Raider or No One Lives Forever? Is it fine if it has a female main character option like Quake III Arena or Blood II: The Chosen? Is it fine it has a female side character or just a female NPC? Is it fine, in the case of strategy games, if it has a single female unit (AoE had a ship ostensibly with Cleopatra on it though no other "female" units). These are important things to consider. Though a list of games noted by reviwerse and the press for either their depth or lack thereof is fine, though that is already how this article is shaping up. Comrade Graham (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think this article is pretty ambiguous. Maybe it should be changed to "Controversy over female objectification in video games" or something like that. That way it could apply more towards sources' opinions rather than making it unclear whether the opinions of Wikipedia editors are influencing the article. There's no such thing as positive and negative portrayals, for example Samus Aran was in a bikini in the first game and yet was also praised for being a powerful heroic female protagonist.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Instead of moving it, I think it should just be redirected to Video game controversy#Gender, where there isn't much information about the subject.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:22, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I could easily agree to that, that goes along with something else raised on this page, what about objectification of men in video games? This is a gender issue too! For example, what about all the games depicting men as brainless muscle men, and so forth. A more general gender portrayal mention is something I am in favour of. Though I would want it be done in such a way that a lot of the information in this page is not lost. Comrade Graham (talk) 11:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I think there is no such thing as a "positive portrayal" in that all the controversy stems from the negative portrayals. Any normal portrayal could be thought of a positive one. We have to draw the line somewhere - while one person may believe that a blade-wielding warrior woman would be a positive portrayal, another might argue that it presents women as cold and ruthless. However, negative portrayals such as outright objectification or violence towards them are more easy to quantify and add to the controversy article.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 03:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Should mention the controversy surrounding Duke Nukem Forever's portrayal of women

Both IGN and Gamespot I believe wrote articles addressing the complaints from some feminists groups that have complained about the portrayal of females in DNF. Maybe this should be included in this article. ScienceApe (talk) 01:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Sure, Duke Nukem portrayal of women is high-profile. I'm sure we will found sources for the original games too. Diego Moya (talk) 13:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I think it is fair, especially since reviewers who enjoyed Duke Nukem 3D have even complained - for example Ars Technica's review. Technopeasant (talk) 06:11, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Remove specific examples

I propose to remove all specific examples in "Claims of positive portrayals". I know of some more general positive portrayals like "women are being shown as stronger and stronger in video games" (not quote) and the like. Harry Blue5 (talk • contribs) 20:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

So you want only the claims of negative portrayal? (No.) --Barry Sandwich (talk) 12:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I said I could provide non-specific examples of positive portrayals. The negative portrayal section does not consist only of specific examples. Harry Blue5 (talk • contribs) 17:33, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, alright then. --Barry Sandwich (talk) 14:41, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

April Ryan from "The Longest Journey" is widely known as a high point for female game characters. I don't have a citation for this but I know there must be something out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.140.58 (talk) 21:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Complete agreement here. In The_Longest_Journey and List_of_characters_in_The_Longest_Journey_series there are sources that discuss this character. Diego Moya (talk) 22:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

User with IP 94.246.154.130, there's no need to have an article to be notable, and there's no need to be notable to be included in an article. So your justification for removing April Ryan is not valid. That character has been widely discussed in reliable sources as a relevant portrayal of both protagonist women and strong characters in adventure games, so she should be included here. Diego Moya (talk) 22:24, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

So maybe go and make an article about her that would pass the video game character notability criteria, and we'll have her as "notable" alright. Okay? --94.246.154.130 (talk) 22:28, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and here much more interesting would be this traumatised prostitute player character from Heavy Rain. But guess what, she has no article. (Besides Wiki, that is.) --94.246.154.130 (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

And I completely disagree. She has no article on her own, ergo not notable (enough). And do you know how many such not-really notable characters exist? Hundreds. At the very least (because it's really more like thousands). --94.246.154.130 (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

No, not "alright". How many of those characters have been subject of academic study?[1][2][3][4]

Your requirement to have links only to characters with complete articles is unrealistic and against Wikipedia policy; WP:Verifiability advises to include content in Wikipedia based on appearance in reliable sources, not in other existing Wikipedia articles. Unless you provide a reason for removal based on approved guidelines, I'm restating the link into the article. Diego Moya (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Cool, so she's actually notable? Now tell we why she has no article despite all of this (and she used to have, but, quote: "redirecting to the character list per WP:N, WP:PLOT, WP:OR"), because I guess it's some conspiracy. It's about "notable examples" (quote: "Notable examples of such characters include"), I'll remind you. --94.246.154.130 (talk) 23:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, that "conspiracy" seems to be because one editor (rightly) decided that the current status at that point didn't meet the requirements for a stand-alone article. See, because anyone can edit Wikipedia, the existence (or lack thereof) of an article is not a good indicator of the subject's notability (neither in the original meaning nor the technical meaning at Wikipedia - which only applies to whole articles, not references to the subject in text).

Thanks for pointing out that the April Ryan redirect was a former article; I didn't have noticed it, and I'll set out to recover it with encyclopedic content. But please understand why doing that is not a requirement to list April in this article. Wikipedia editors are expected by the core content policies to write encyclopedic content based on external sources, so that all of it is attributable to reliable publishers. If all editors relied on Wikipedia internal dynamics instead, like you did with the reasons for this deletion, the project would quickly devolve into a self-referential mental masturbation like everything2 or the BBC's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Diego Moya (talk) 07:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Notable female protagonists?

In the Player characters section there's a paragraph claiming that "Notable examples of such characters include...", followed by a seemingly random list of characters. Some of them have been later mentioned in the claims of positive portrayals, but not all of them have references. So what's the assertion of notability for Aya Brea, Rayne and Bayonetta to be included in that list of examples? Diego Moya (talk) 16:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

They passed the Wikipedia notability test, and so they have their articles. Just see their "reception" (or "cultural impact", whatever) sections. And look, I have my favourites too, but I'm not pushing them for no valid reason. Okay? --94.246.154.130 (talk) 09:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm asking for their relevance with respect to the portrayal of women. What's special about their portrayal? The article doesn't say. If their relation to the topic is their appearance in top lists, that should be mentioned.

And yes, I've seen their reception. For some of them, their "cultural impact" is akin to "appearing in the 50 top bimbos list". Nothing wrong with that, I just want to make sure that not all characters mentioned in the article meet that same criteria. Diego Moya (talk) 12:43, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and as I see you're making article now - you've got to find some notable notability, as even Ayane (Dead or Alive) is actually borderline (scrapping the barrel at times), in my opinion. Primarily, it would mean her being on multiple top/best lists by notable outlets (with their own Wikipedia articles), also appearances outside of the games (film adaptations, novels), mechandise, etc. You've got a whole section for "voice acting" - usually, it's just in the infobox, where the various voice actors in the various games in the series are listed. --94.246.154.130 (talk) 09:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

And also there are many characters who have their articles, AND were favorably compared to Lara Croft, but are not even mentioned here anyway (like Ayame (Tenchu), for example). It's really not a big deal, and Lara is mostly passe anyway. --94.246.154.130 (talk) 10:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Notability is not temporary; characters should be included not for being a current fad, but based on their influence with respect to the topic of this article. If Lara influenced a collection of other characters, that's something of interest to note, as long as there are references for it. Diego Moya (talk) 12:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Does academic studies and books count as "appearances outside of the games" for you? How about influencing the design of female protagonists throughout a whole genre? Diego Moya (talk) 12:37, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the "academic studies and books" covered a plenty of various characters. How about you write about these studies, instead of what I think is fanboyism of a certain character that few people know or remember? (Yes, I don't know her, too, I just heard about the game - at least a decade ago, I think.) --94.246.154.130 (talk) 21:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Sure, find those other studies and I will gladly add them to the article. I can only write about the sources I know. I haven't had heard about Jade nor "Beyond Good & Evil" before discovering this article, for example, and the references provided at Wikipedia make them look a huge event although the game seemed to sell badly. Diego Moya (talk) 21:50, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Jade is actually pretty famous, apearing in the top/best lists often (and so is the game). Now excuse me, brb b& (once again). --94.246.154.130 (talk) 22:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

GamesRadar feature article on the subject

http://www.gamesradar.com/fair-game-for-girls/ --194.145.185.229 (talk) 11:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

"Jiggle physics"

Do you think we should also expand on the "jiggle physics" feature of female video game characters? It's a very common trend nowadays to give female characters large breasts that bounce, sway, and make various other random movements. Also, when I added in a "breast bounce" video game concept article, it was later removed. Why was it removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.156.7.142 (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

What to do about lists of characters?

This article is prone to having whole paragraphs that are disguised lists of characters. The three sections in "Roles of female characters in video games" are the major culprits in this regard.

I think these paragraphs would be better served by moving them to a real list format, either by creating a list article or by placing those characters as new subcategories of Category:Female video game characters. After all the only information given in the current article is a binary "this character does/doesn't belong to this group" - you don't need a paragraph for that, and it hurts the article's readability.

Moving these lists to a different place would make for a better prose, and characters for which there is real information about their portrayal could be kept (see the paragraphs about Samus and Lara in Female protagonists to see how it's done right). If nobody opposes I'm going to remove the lists of characters and placing them and their videogames under the appropriate new categories. Diego (talk) 12:18, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

That's just not really needed. The article was actually always like that, just much more incomplete and crappy in comparison (for example, 1 year ago, 2 years ago). And the reason for listing is one might click on these characters and learn more about how were they portrayed (especially from their development and reception sections). Also as of making multiple new categories: you'd have to do the same for the male characters too if you did it for the females, and also you need to first discuss such stuff in the video games portal or something. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 15:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Well yes, the article is better now because it doesn't just contains a list of characters without explanation of who they are, it says something about them. That's why I propose either saying something about the characters included or moving them elsewhere so that they only bother readers interested in navigating to other articles.

This proposal is intended to improve this article; the male characters may have different requirements (see WP:Other stuff exists). I already started the discussion at Category:Female video game characters, but posting it at the portal is a good idea too. Diego (talk) 16:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Article - Fantasy Armor and Lady Bits

http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/ ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 11:57, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

The descriptions are horrible

1. The descriptions are horrible - even just plain false or retarded. Like "Rookie member of a Police Special Tactics department, and later protagonist in a sequel" - it's STARS (Special Tactics and Rescue Team) of the RPD (Raccoon City Police Department)and Zero is a prequel (isn't it obvious???). Yuna is not that much "involved in a pilgrimage", as in SAVING THE WORLD (that's what she is supposed to do). And so on. Maybe you should actually read the articles (if not play the games), and then write some coherent descriptions?
2. Why are the fighting vidya characters grouped together?? Do you fighting they have no personalities and stories and are only beating up each other as "female fighters"? Most of them are much more deeper than, say, Dark Queen or Yordac (btw, Yorda has no article, and no wonder).
3. Why are they listed so randomly? The first few are in alphabetical order alright, then there's no apparent order at all!

Also, I added several more articles in the meantime. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 17:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, I just love how you ignored the link that I gave you to write a better article (a few section above). --194.145.185.229 (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Um, do you absolutely have any idea what you are talking about? Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:56, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There seems to be consensus that this article, Portrayal of women in video games, should be merged into Gender representation in video games.  Sandstein  19:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

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It has been proposed (not by me, although I support the idea) that Gender representation in video games be merged here. Yunshui 雲‍水 09:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support Gender representation in video games has only one source and is largely a personal essay derived from that source. The source itself is useful, and it would make sense to smerge the content here. Yunshui 雲‍水 09:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. The articles definitely ought to be merged, but I don't want to be the one to do it. DoctorKubla (talk) 20:58, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - it would make more sense to merge "portrayal of women..." into "Gender representation...", since the merged content would cover both male and female representations, and thus would not be just about the portrayal of women. Diego (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
• No, sorry, but this is backwards. Portrayal of women in video games should be renamed to the more general Gender representation in video games, and any salvageable text from that article should be included in the more general article. Lo and behold, contrary to what the WMF would have us think, men do make up half of the world, and we should be creating general gender articles in cases like this, rather than a women-only emphasis. One article on gender issues, both male and female, please. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
• Reverse Merge - Gender representation in video games is in a completely different state then it was in March. Merging Portrayal of women in video games into it would allow for a better NPOV in regards to gender representation in gaming. If the sections are expanded enough it can be re-separated but currently beneficial to merge in that fashion. -Dark Silver Crow (talk) 01:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. The creator of the "Gender representation..." article, User:Pdebarro, keeps removing the merge tag with no apparent will to join the discussion. Whoever performs the merge, expect some resistance. DoctorKubla (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - these are different topics. If they are to be merged, it should be the other way around: Gender representation in video games is the broader topic, Portrayal of women in video games the narrower one. But the articles are sufficiently well-developed at this point that I think both can stand separately. Robofish (talk) 15:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
• Reverse Merge - the title of the other article is more general. —Entropy (T/C) 07:09, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
• Dudes, seriously? Gender representation in video games is horrible. A large part of it is a section titled "Mitsurugi" - about a single character that does not even has an article on Wikipedia! --Niemti (talk) 09:53, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
• Reverse merge - This article's scope is clearly subsumed by that of the other article. It would be impossible to perform a merge in this direction unless the title of this article was afterward changed to "Gender representation in video games". -Thibbs (talk) 13:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.