Talk:Olga Taratuta

Note on Heath 2009

When I came across this article, it seemed to be pulling quite closely from Nick Heath's 2009 biography on Libcom.org. As it was a self-published blog post, I had my concerns about the source, but kept it in and clearly cited it as I expanded the article. However, I've just taken a look at it and saw that one of the sources Heath cited was the Esperanto Wikipedia article on Taratuta.

Having been through the other sources Heath cited, Avrich and Goldman, it became immediately clear that the majority of the article was pulled directly from Wikipedia. And on closer inspection, it appeared as though Heath may have plagiarised his own article from the Esperanto Wikipedia. (Telltale signs of this include mentions of the Makhnovist commanders giving Taratuta 5 million rubles, or her work at Golos Truda, which is mentioned by both Heath and EO Wikipedia, but none of the other sources) This is especially concerning given that the EO Wikipedia article didn't cite any of its own sources.

Given our previous concerns regarding citogenesis, I figured it would be best practice to completely remove all citations to Heath and any information cited solely to Heath. Most of the information cited to him is also provided by more clearly reliable sources (particularly Avrich, Dubovik and Savchenko), so that wasn't so much of an issue. The information cited solely to Heath was also relatively superfluous, so not much was lost by cutting it.

I'm bringing this up here for posterity. If anybody has any issues with the excision of this source, please feel free to say so. -- Grnrchst (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

POV

1. The consensus at WP:KIEV was that Kyiv is the common name only since 1991.
2. From what I see, the English language sources refer to the subject as Olga Taratuta (or Olga Ilyinichna Taratuta). Moving the page to Olha Taratuta based on a single Ukrainian-language source is highly inappropriate. Certainly without discussion.
3. Sucn nationality as Ukrainian-Jewish does not exist and never existed. Tataruta was a citizen of the Russian Empire, later of the Soviet Union, I do not see any evidence she spoke Ukrainian - she spoke Yiddish as her mothertongue and Russian as equal to her mothertongue.
4. Ukraine leads a massive cultural appropriation campaign, trying to portray everyone who ever lived in their current territory as Ukrainian. We should not become the vehicle of their propaganda and follow the reliable sources instead.----Ymblanter (talk) 11:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

   1. That doesn't say that pre-1991 uses of Kyiv must refer to it as "Kiev" though. I honestly don't see the problem using "Kyiv" here.
   2. I moved it based on Viktor Savchenko's English language abstract. As Viktor Savchenko is, as of yet, the only author to write a somewhat complete biography on Taratuta, I considered it to be uncontroversial. If I was wrong to do this, I'm happy to open a move discussion.
   3. I've removed the nationality field from the infobox. If you think other changes should be made, let me know.
   4. I don't see what this has to do with this article, unless you're disputing the reliability of any of the cited sources.

   -- Grnrchst (talk) 11:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

   I outlined very specific points, and I object the GA promotion until these have been addressed. Please restore Kiev, as corresponds to the community consensus (and in case you have not been there, it was really painful to reach this consensus - did she live in Kyiv, Kiev Governorate? Also please revert the move, change the spelling of her name back, and, if you feel necessary, open a RM. One all this has been done, it is ok to remove the POV template. Ymblanter (talk) 11:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

   I responded to those points. I just very strongly object to your accusations of "cultural appropriation" and "propaganda", and consider it detrimental to building consensus.

   I don't understand why you insist on the use of "Kiev", especially considering the consensus points you linked here don't even insist on the use of "Kiev". I find it astounding that you consider the mere use of "Kyiv" to be POV, but don't seem to think pushing "Kiev" is.

   As for the article name, I'm happy to provisionally move it back to "Olga Taratuta", per common name policy. I just genuinely didn't think it would be a controversial move (and clearly was wrong). -- Grnrchst (talk) 12:14, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

   Well, I insist on using Kiev for the beginning of the 20th century because non-Ukrainian reliable sources overwelmingly use Kiev for this period, and therefore the community consensus was that Kyiv should only be unambiguously used since 1991. This indeed might look like a very minor issue, but the community spent really a lot of time discussing it. If you want to probe the consensus, you should open a new discussion at Talk:Kyiv, but I would honestly advise against it. Ymblanter (talk) 14:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

   I've attempted to find a compromise solution on the transliteration of Taratuta's name. Savchenko provides her full name in Ukrainian, with a Romanized transliteration. While the English language sources tend to prefer the Russian romanization "Olga", none use the Russian patronymic "Ilyinichna", so I've left that out. The Kyiv issue does indeed seem like a minor issue to me and certainly not one I thought was worth POV-tagging over. The guidelines state that Kyiv should only be used unambiguously after 1991, but doesn't say it must not be used for before 1991.

   I'm trying my best to form a consensus with you on this so I can move forward with this article. In order to do that, I really would appreciate if you could apologise for accusing me of pushing Ukrainian state propaganda. It felt like a personal attack from the very beginning and really wasn't a good starting point for a healthy discussion. -- Grnrchst (talk) 14:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

   I did not accuse you of pushing the Ukrainian state propaganda, and I apologize if you perceived it like this. I think you started editing in an area which is highly contentious without realizing it, and in this area it is very easy to lose some fine balance. Of course Ukrainian sources follow Olha, because the narrative is that everybody who ever lived in the current area of Ukraine is Ukrainian and their name must be transliterated according to WP:UKR. I did not expect you to know this, or agree with this or whatever, but I believe that the balance is lost here. Whatever romanization of Kiev/Kyiv is established in the article following our conversation, there will be a stream of new users coming here to change it on a regular basis. Ymblanter (talk) 05:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Olga Taratuta/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sawyer-mcdonell (talk · contribs) 19:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

@Grnrchst Hi! I plan on reviewing this article within the next 2 days. Seems like a fascinating topic! Ping me if you have any questions :) sawyer * he/they * talk 03:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Sawyer-mcdonell: Thanks for taking this on! I have responded to all your comments and questions. Let me know if there's more that I need to do. :) --Grnrchst (talk) 10:33, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Awesome! I'm going to continue reviewing today (there are a few criteria I haven't looked at yet) & hopefully get everything sorted. It is indeed a fascinating topic. :) sawyer * he/they * talk 20:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Assessment

Well-written

• the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct  Passed
  •  Question: On 17 December 1905, Taratuta's cell carried out a bomb attack against the Libman Café. Why was the Libman Café targeted?
    • Added motive. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
  •  Question: During the 1905 Russian Revolution, Taratuta and other members of the anarchist-communist group joined a militant organization known as the Black Banner, which launched out a campaign of "motiveless terror" against Russian institutions and officials. Is "motiveless terror" a self-description by the group of their own activities? Or an external description? The cited sources imply the former, and I think this could be clarified.
    • Clarified. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
  •  Comment: I'm seeing some discrepancy in spelling - Olga vs Olha, Lukyanivska vs Lukianivska, etc. I realize this is likely a result of the talk page POV scuffle back in June, so I won't change it myself, but it should be made consistent. A fresh talk page discussion is probably a good idea here, just to cover the CTOP bases.
    • I've made the spelling of Lukyanivska consistent. As for the use of "Olha", every single remaining use in the body is in cases where using "Taratuta" or the pronoun "she" wouldn't make sense and every single case of it is cited to Savchenko 2021, who uses the transliteration "Olha", not "Olga". I have no interest in reopening a talk page discussion on this, as the first one was a very distressing process for me; I don't want to have accusations of bad faith and threats thrown at me all over again just for spelling something the way my principle source does... --Grnrchst (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

      Totally understandable; I appreciate the clarification. sawyer * he/they * talk 20:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

• it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation  Passed

Verifiable with no original research

• it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline  Passed
• reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose)  Passed
  •  Comment: Taratuta's birth date is in the infobox, but not mentioned or cited in the body
    • This is because sources disagree on her date of birth. Savchenko gives her year of birth as 1874, Dubovik gives it as 1876, while Avrich says she was "about 35 years of age" at the time of her trial. I have added an "either 1874 or 1876", complete with sources, in order to demonstrate this. I'm not sure where the Russian Wikipedia article got the date 21 January from, it's not in any of the sources it cites. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

      Works for me - I removed the 21 January date from the infobox just so the article is consistent. sawyer * he/they * talk 20:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

•  Comment: Spot-checking of the sources to follow
  • Spot-checking (using Google translate for the Savchenko source) brought up nothing of concern - everything matches, and the sources all seem very reliable.
• it contains no original research  Passed
• it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism  Passed
  •  Comment: Earwig brought nothing up

Broad in its coverage

• it addresses the main aspects of the topic  Passed
  •  Comment: The final quote by Savchenko is great - it makes me think a "legacy" section could be created
    • I'd considered it, but none of the sources really depict a lasting legacy, beyond biographical information and eulogies/obituaries. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

      Good to know - then I think it's probably good as-is. sawyer * he/they * talk 20:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

• it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)  Passed

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each  Passed

•  Comment: I was somewhat worried about the use of the word "terrorism" & the like, but the sources use it pretty consistently and it seems like Taratuta's circle self-identified with "terrorism" to some extent.
  • This is indeed the case. Not only are sources not shy about the term, but Taratuta wasn't either. Many militant anarchist of the fin de siecle period were proud of calling themselves terrorists. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute  Passed

Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio

• media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content  Passed
• media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions  Passed
  •  Comment: The infobox image could do with a caption
    • Added caption. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.