Talk:Moe (slang)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Original

The original page is located at moe.

Moeru

In Japanese, "Moeru" means both To Burn and To Sprout. "Moe" used in this area is from the later, though it certainly contains a connotation of To Burn, witch is used to express  feverishness.

Is is an expression used like "It's so Moeeee" to say we're excited (sexually). The animation studio used this expression and named their company after it. I don't think that this is the company itself that created the trend! But just in case, it's better to verify, if someone knows.

I rewrote the entire article and I don't know how the original writer came up with that explanation. It could not obviously came from a company's name and it's probably other way around. Revth 13:46, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Miyazaki a feminist?

It might be better to avoid the term "feminist", which is ambiguous here due to the very different meaning of the derivative Japanese term フェミニスト: a Japanese フェミニスト is someone who gives up his seat for a lady, while an English feminist is someone who would denounce anyone doing that for trying to relegate women to a submissive role...

I am using the American term for feminist. Read a few of Miyazaki's interviews, particularly those avaliable on Nausicaa.net, the documentary that came with the Nausicaa DVD on Studio Ghibli, and his own films. Its very well documented that Miyazaki is a feminist in the English sense. --Neilworms 04:40, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Um howabout an explanation of who Miyazaki is and why we are writing about him, within the article.

Well, to put it briefly Hayao Miyazaki is probably the most respected animator in Japan. Therefore his opinion about something in the animation industry carries some weight. I don't think he really needs an introduction since most anime fans know who he is (or have at least heard of him), and you can always read about him here. Brutannica 05:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I am using the American term for feminist. Read a few of Miyazaki's interviews, particularly those avaliable on Nausicaa.net, the documentary that came with the Nausicaa DVD on Studio Ghibli, and his own films. Its very well documented that Miyazaki is a feminist in the English sense.

--Neilworms 04:40, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're using the American term to reffer to his feminism in an English sense? Keep in mind feminsim is a loaded word and should be used so discreetly.

As a Japanese I would like to make some comments about this topic. As pointed out above, few Japanese people regard MIYAZAKI Hayao as a feminist. In Japan, even if you support publicly the opinion that any sex discrimination should be abolished, you are hardly called a feminist, especially when you are a male. Most people who are regarded as a feminist in Japan declare themselves to be a feminist. Therefore, when I first read the phrase, "Hayao Miyazaki, a feminist", I felt a slight discomfort at it. At least in Japanese Wikipedia labeling Miyazaki as a feminist would be unacceptable. Ku.sakamoto 23:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm.. interesting debate. How about describing him as "supporting a revision of traditional Japanese feminine roles?" Brutannica 05:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think this quote was taken a bit out of context. He never mentions moe, but is talking more generally about lolicon tendencies. Many character considered to be moe are not "submissive", such as Nagi Sanzen'in --69.157.67.58 (talk) 11:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Important personalities who are not artists

Hiroki Azuma 東浩紀 is primary representative of Otaku culture (authentic term in Japan), who defined Moe-youso (Moe elements or Moe signs) in Doubutsuka suru postmodern (Postmodern animalizing), which is in turn well read in universities. Because he was the most celebrated philosopher specializing in Jacques Derrida before he turned to be otaku analyst, has very, very influenced both students and book publishing market. And also known is Eiji Otsuka 大塚英二, an editor-critic. They say Otaku culture is the first culture for Japan to propagate abroad (i.e., if you are intelligent japanese, obligatorily appreciate Hentai). Confusing and paradoxal situation for us. Hentai is not uprising hobby now in Japan. (Porn-addicted period does not span 5 years in one's life. They've grown up.) And you can see schoolgirls wearing big cute glasses this summer, Tokyo, even cat-eared girls at dance floors. As Hentai was a concept borrowed partly from YAOI, it gets feminized again.

Yes moeru means generally burning, but Moe(萌え) means spontaneous budding in ancient japanese (chinese character defers). Think good word.

Otaku means simply egoists nowadays here. No good conotation, no bad one. --NoirNoir 07:18, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Why has the definition of moe with the kanji usually associated with it not been specified? I've always seen moe written in kanji, why not just put that. The lack of etymology just seems to reflect the confusion of non-Japanese speaking American otaku, and this AnimeNation Q&A guy in particular.

defn

1,lovely 2,Wonderful 3,pretty

Wise & understanding words are wise & understanding.

Hotaru Tomoe is "the true origin"?

Last edit by 200.40.214.243 added the following:

It's likely that the true origin of this term is in Tomoe Hotaru, a character from Sailor Moon who is extremely popular with otaku: "moe" from "Tomoe" quickly turned into a more general term.

I changed it to something more NPOV (the already cited John Oppliger included the Hotaru Tomoe theory, I made that explicit.) If anyone has actual evidence that Hotaru is "likely the true origin", feel free to revert.

Also, I changed moeru to proper Hepburn, italic romanization according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Where does the accented "é" came from, anyway? leoboiko 02:01, 2005 August 4 (UTC)

English speakers who are unfamiliar with Japanese pronunciation tend to pronounce Japanese 'e' sounds incorrectly, i.e. with a long 'EE' sound. The 'é' denotes the short 'eh' sound and makes sure they pronounce it correctly.

Sexuality?

I'm not really sure why both Moe and Kawaii have been moved/added to Category:Sexuality in Japan? Shiroi Hane 02:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

The article is about sexuality. Why not? Ashibaka tock 19:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The first paragraph says "non-sexual" so...? Shiroi Hane 01:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Only parenthetically, and I kind of doubt it. Ashibaka tock 17:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

umm.... I'm Taiwanese so like the "English-speaking" definition of moe might be different from that of the Japaneses and Taiwanese -__- but isn't the meaning "completely non-sexual state of excitement created by a certain trait of character" for example a female can say "omfg why is Fate-chan so moe!? orz" (啊爲什麽菲特這麼萌呢 orz) she is not asking why she is sexually turned on by said character, rather indicating that she likes the character and the presence of the character makes her excited.

^An excellent example!

Moe and anime: accents or not?

As traditional romanizations tend to exclude accents and reserve marks for extended vowels, is the usage of the accent on moé appropriate? I can understand the desire to separate this from the same-spelling "Moe" but generally accents are not used when describing this.

One example against the case of moé vs moe is anime: the etymological reasoning behind calling it "animé" are spurious at best. Another is sake.

An example for the case of moé vs moe, we have Pokémon.

Just a matter of curiosity here, and a wish to keep Wikipedia as consistent as possible. Miwa 01:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

While I do think it's important to keep Wikipedia consistent, I do like the accent on this particular word. "Traditional romanizations" vary all over the place, and the accent mark is often used to clarify pronunciations. Franzeska 19:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no basis for spelling 萌え with an accent. I will be putting this up for movement soon.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  07:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, the statement Others believe that it was a wordplay on "to burn" (燃える moeru), figuratively interpreted as "to burn with passion" (in other words, to be madly in love). is unsourced and presumably un-factual. If a source is not added it will be deleted.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  17:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I have seen (heard) moe/moeru puns in Anime, although I can't remember specifically where and that doesn't prove derivation anyway. Shiroi Hane 02:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I can understand the desire to separate this from the same-spelling "Moe" but generally accents are not used when describing this.

So, what is generally used to describe this? I'm going to move this back if nobody explains this. Ashibaka tock 14:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, I think that's long enough. Ashibaka tock 19:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

If you know your readers know that moe (萌え) is pronounced differently from Moe (personal name), then there's no reason to put an accent on the E. If you have to start by explaining how to pronounce "moe," then you can deviate from proper romanization to get your point across. Usage rules for accents suggests that an umlaut is used to indicate a second vowel is pronounced separately from the first, so "moë" has just as much legitimacy.

The problem is that readers must recognize the difference between 萌え and Moe the Bartender every single time. Using an accent makes this article much easier to read. Ashibaka tock 01:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. If the acute accent is removed, you just get Moe. And no-one loves Moe. --Ppk01 18:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm no otaku or expert on moe or anything, but I'm still very certain that moe does not need an accent mark. Wikipedia is here to document things that already are, not to create things, like a new way of writing a certain word for an easier read. "Moe" is a Japanese word, and unlike "karaoke" or "rickshaw," it hasn't found its way into the lives of enough English-speaking people to turn from a simple romanization of a Japanese word into a full-fledged English word with Japanese origins. There is not one widely-used romanization system of which I've ever heard that uses any sort of accent mark (besides modified ones in textbooks that mark pitch accent), and being that "moe" is a romanization of a Japanese word, there isn't any reason why its spelling should deviate from romanization standards that everyone is familiar with. And PokéMon is Nintendo's creation, so they have the right to have it spelled however they want. "Moé", as well as "moë" (whose accent mark is actually the diaeresis and not the umlaut), seem to me like they would be words from languages that make use of accent marks. However, I admit that if I'd never had heard the word before, I WOULD mistake it with Moe the Bartender. But I think it's better to keep the proper spelling than to spell it incorrectly and have people pronounce it the wrong way. We don't spell "night" like "nite," even though it SOUNDS more like "nite," now, do we? And even when people DO spell it like "nite," we still know that's wrong. I doubt that anyone will use this moe outside of the circle where people don't know what it means. And there already IS a distinction between moe and Moe. See? Think about it a little, and I'm sure you'll agree that this accent mark shouldn't be here. --207.172.249.67 05:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. And it's against Wikipedia policy to move a page using copy-paste. Ashibaka tock 04:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This page should be moved to Moe. There is no reason for the "é" to be present, as it is not standardly used when talking about moe in mainstream press or almost anywhere. If necessary, an alternate note can be made of "sometimes romanized as Moé," rather than the other way around.MightyAtom 23:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Use English" overrules Hepburn, as described on the naming conventions page whereever it is. And using "Moe" for the sound "mo-ay" is not English. Ashibaka tock 01:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Using your own argument, it should be noted that the "é" is not used in standard English, period. There are no accented letters in the English language. Therefore, since the standard way to romanize Japanese on Wikipedia is without an accent (except in cases such as the trademarked "Pokémon" title), this article should be at "Moe (slang)". I do agree that cut-and-paste is an improper way to move the article, though. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 08:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

As pointed about, pretty much all Japan-related articles use Hepburn romanization. Sake, Geisha, Ehime...this is the constitant and agreed upon standard, that shouldn't be altered just for personal preference. Most of these articles also include pronounciation guides, stating how the term is said. There is no reason for Moe to be an exception to this. MightyAtom 02:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

One editor does not override WP:MOS-JA. The page move from Moe (slang) to Moé was done by by Ashibaka with basically no discussion and weak rational. -- Ned Scott 11:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the page should be named Moe without an accent for the reasons others gave above, but either way, it should contain an explanation of the pronunciation, mentioning both spellings and explaining that with-accent may be easier for readers of English unfamiliar with Japanese roomaji, but without-accent is standard roomaji.216.75.191.251 03:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a pronunciation guide to the first bit. That should solve the issue.MightyAtom 03:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide question

Which do you think is more accurate and easy to understand, "mo-eh" or "mo-ay" ? MightyAtom 01:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC) "mo-eh" is more accurate. 193.44.6.146 (talk) 14:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

An interesting article on a burgeoning topic in otaku culture etc. Just needs a little cleanup. (1) moe in this context is a foreign word, not an English word, and should be italicized every time. (2) while to a student of Japanese studies like myself it is obvious what is being implied by much of what is written, it is important to be careful to explicitly express ideas correctly. For example, the use of the word shōjo to mean shōjo anime, while an obvious abbreviation to any anime fan, is not technically accurate. Fujioka Haruhi is a 少女. Ouran Host Club is a 少女アニメ。 This goes the same for many of the other anime/manga/otaku-related articles which I am sure have similar issues. Thank you, and happy holidays! LordAmeth 00:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Please translate

「萌えとはキャラクターという存在しないものの足らない部分を、想像力で補完する行為です」（堀田順司 萌え萌えジャパン[1]）--Azukimonaka 21:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a stab. "Although the Moe characters don't actually exist, what isn't there is filled in using the power of imagination." MightyAtom 06:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Moezilla

Should Moezilla be added to the "see also" section at the bottom? It seems relative Jon Fawkes 04:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

moekko=?

The article needs to define this loanword if it's going to use it, since it can't be found in any English dictionary. NeonMerlin 17:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleted due to trolling.

Sources

Hi, I've run across this site recently and think its content is encyclopedic enough... Since I'm not an active contributor to this article but it desperately needs more sources, I decided to post the link here so that a primary editor can extract whatever useful information it may contain... --Koveras ^☭ 20:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments and Suggestions

For who I am, and why I’m competent to make these comments, see my user page. It seems to me that this entry is far from complete, and needs to deal with the kind of issue raised below.

Jim Breen’s WWWJDIC on-line Japanese dictionary indicates that “moe” has a number of meanings, the relevant one here being “crush (anime, manga term); fascination, infatuation” with secondary meanings of “sprouting, budding” (<http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic?1E> (accessed Dec 18, 2005)). Additional insight can be obtained from the Japanese Mandarake on-line bookstore, in a webpage welcoming visitors to a “moé auction” (with an accent over the e of moé). The website says: “The word Moé stands for the feeling that you can’t help appreciating the cute sexual attitude or speaking code of character. Like… Iris MOE…! means that I’m totally charmed and turned on by the cuteness of Iris! or that I can’t help adoring the way Iris speaks” ([sic]; <http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_moe/index.do> accessed Nov. 16, 2005). It follows that moe refers to a **response** to the character on the reader/viewer’s part, with the implication that one person’s “moe” is someone else’s boredom – because, after all, not everyone may be charmed by how Iris speaks.

Nonetheless, moe can be manipulated by the artist or editor, by giving the character time- and market-tested attributes that are known to be appealing. In markets as competitive as manga and anime, such manipulations translate into purchases of books, anime, models, and figurines, as well as other character-associated products (like bento lunchboxes that feature Sakura from CLAMP’s “Cardcaptor Sakura” or Motoko Kusanagi from Shirow/Oshii’s “Ghost in the Shell”).

Sometimes, but *not* always, these moe-inducing attributes are sexual or partially sexual. A master of this particular style of blending cute (“kawaii”) with sexual appeal (hence moe-inducing in young male otaku) is the manga artist U Jin (“Angel,” “Peach,” “Sakura Tsushin”). But moe is not necessarily linked to sexuality. Examples from manga include Sakura from “Cardcaptor Sakura,” Koge-Donbo’s Kokon from “Konkon Kokon,” and Sugar from Haruka Aoi’s “Little Snow Fairy Sugar.” A US example is Shirley Temple when she was a child movie star. A more striking example is Sergeant Frog from Mine Yoshizaki’s manga “Sgt. Frog.” Buying a Sergeant Frog keychain does not proclaim the owner to be sexually attracted to frogs, not even manga or anime frogs.

No one knows, not really, what goes into making a character moe-inducing. If they did, the knowledge would be worth many millions of dollars (or yen) because such a formula would guarantee that a new movie, TV show, or comic would be an automatic money-making success. But it’s not that easy, and artists, producers, and investors try a variety of ways to grab the audience’s proclivities to like a character.

Although the term “moe” is Japanese, the underlying phenomenon is much wider than that. Americans have experienced moe-like responses to movie stars (Clark Gable, Erroll Flynn), sports heroes, and politicians (JFK is a good example). A superb example of moe occurs in the Beatles film “Hard Day’s Night,” in the scene where hundreds of screaming teenage girls chase the Beatles. Frank Sinatra induced similar responses, and so does Brad Pitt.

An important point is to distinguish admiration for someone, like JFK, from the intense emotional relationship-at-a-distance that underlies moe. Moe touches on fantasy and wish fulfillment, which the ardent fan recreates into daydreams and wishful thinking. One can legitimately admire JFK as a man and a politician without elevating him into an object of moe. Thus, in moe, there is a slippage between real and fantasized worlds, where, in the latter, the fan imagines him/herself in a romance or friendship with the admired hero/heroine.

Moe also has degrees of intensity. Not all fans fill their rooms or homes with JFK memorabilia or collect all of U Jin’s drawings. Moe can be limited to obtaining a person’s autograph or a signed image of a movie character, or it can reach the extremes of stalking the hero/heroine or the actor/actress who plays the character.

Thus, moe refers to an ardent fan’s complex feelings of admiration, love, and desire for an individual, real or imaginary, who powerfully appeals to that particular fan. In consumerist-oriented societies like Japan and the US, such feelings translate into profits. Moe is therefore an example of the dynamic interaction between audience and character, and belongs to the spectrum of fandom of any kind.

Timothy Perper 16:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Image Diagram

I have a Image diagram that im still working on that i wana use on this artical see: File:Moeclass.jpg

Can I use it or is this the wrong place?!--Lolicon-r.us 14:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think it's interesting, and probably captures your personal vision of what is moe-inducing to YOU, but unless it's published or on a reputable, non-bloggy website, it's Original Research, and therefore doesn't belong on Wikipedia.

But I have a few comments. One is that you have to *define* what you mean by words like "youthful." YOUR idea of what youth is is NOT the same as someone else's, so the diagram really shows only YOUR personal vision and preferences among heroines in manga. Another comment is that you have to explain why you choose where to put the character. Why not higher or lower? So once again, you've got a *personal* grid of your own preferences. Which is fine -- but it's just you.

Timothy Perper 15:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Unless that kind of chart has some backing from a research stand-point, it clearly violates NPOV. KyuuA4 05:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Not only is that diagram POV/OR, that's not even Suigintou! --Merovingian (T, C) 06:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Reliable Sources

This is a popular culture item common within only relatively small part of the Japanese population, and a much smaller portion of the rest of the world. How on earth are people going to find sources that can really be considered "Reliable"? No university researcher would touch the topic with a ten foot pole, and industry people tend not to put out publications on terms that came from fans. Not that this is a pointless article, as there are a at least a few people who will stumble across the term and wonder what it is, do a google search[2], and see that wikipedia is among the top results (for me this is the most common application of wikipedia). I think that a notice saying something to the effect that there are no official sources due to the nature of the term would be more appropriate than a tag that makes it seem like the article was made up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Balderdash707 (talk • contribs) 05:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Moé tournaments entry?

The origins of JSaiMoe/KSaimoe and it's history of voting and background should maybe have it's own entry (Moé tournaments?). Including Touhou SeiMoe, which is famous as well. Object to discussion. Wolfii-nya 10:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Not yet. Wait till content increases such that separate articles are needed. Per WP:Summary. KyuuA4 18:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, decided to bring in the Korean Moe material here - in case of later use. KyuuA4 08:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Looking for Korean Best Moe Sources?

The best way to do this is to go directly to the official website at http://moet.anizone.net/. However, you need an authorization code to get in, which can be generated by following instructions on the registration page. 64.202.81.94 15:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. If I have to, then I must. KyuuA4 18:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

http://tournament.moelife.net/ Took me a bit of digging, however, I need to have that verified -- as the source for last year's tournament results. EDIT: OK, I can recognize the characters from the title of it; however, I do not see a year associated to it. KyuuA4 07:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I see you have deleted the Korean Moe section. Understandable, since the official Korean Moe site does not archive their results, at least to my knowledge. The Moe tournament analyst communities are doing their best to preserve information as much as possible, and since 2006 results are nowhere to be found, and the only known knowledge is who finished in the top 16, it is rather hard. If you would like the link to our data, just reply. 167.206.156.186 (talk) 09:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please. An archive to the 2006 and 2007 data would be nice. KyuuA4 (talk) 16:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

http://synchroom.wikispaces.com/KoreanSaiMoe2007 contains detailed information about each match between the anime girls, with the links to voting chart graphs and the like. Most references are from posts made at AnimeSuki forums, where we actually had the luxury of the Administrator and a few Moderators from the Korean Saimoe tournament to provide detailed information for us for archival purposes.

Just recently, Korea also held a Super Best Moe tournament, featuring top 32 contestants from 2006-2007. That information can be found here at http://synchroom.wikispaces.com/SuperBestMoe2007

As for the 2006 information, all I have is an incomplete bracket taken from information found on various websites where discussion was still around. If you would like a bracket of the top 16, I'll give it to you. 167.206.156.241 (talk) 22:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Saimoe sources work because it is directly from their archive. If this blog is all we have of an archive, unfortunately, we cannot use it. Using blog sites as sources constitute as original research and compromises verifiability. In general, blogs are discouraged as sources. If the blogs provide direct sources, then might as well use those. Likewise, forum threads are even less reliable. It would be nice if the Korean Saimoe crew archives their own data and makes it open to the public. Unfortunately, linking to their Best Moe site only shows current data - which does not lead to past data. KyuuA4 (talk) 22:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Korean Best Moe

Since 2006, the Korean Best Moe tournament (모에토너먼트:도움말) is an annual fan voting single elimination tournament. The Korean Best Moe uses a straight up polling system with a unique code generator program to vote with and utilizes a support thread underneath the poll where fans can post there support with comments and/or pictures.

Year	Winner	Runner-Up	Third and Fourth	Fifth through Eighth
2006	Suiseiseki	Eri Sawachika	Shana, Haruhi Suzumiya	Souseiseki, Yuki Nagato, Tessa Testarossa, Rin Tohsaka
2007	Hinagiku Katsura	Shana	Suiseiseki, Tamaki Kousaka	CC, Kagami Hiiragi, Nayuki Minase, Fate Testarossa

Saimoe Tournament

Apparently, I cannot read Japanese, otherwise I woulda written more about it. So, I leave the link to last year's tournament. KyuuA4 06:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

How useful does the controversy section actually is? This is an article about moe after all, not about the inner details and problems about saimoe. --Proto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.135.152.49 (talk) 19:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

While I do not vote myself - I merely look at the results. Yet, it does give some view point to the inner workings of the voting process. Skipping that material a bit, it does reflect the fanbased nature of the tournament; and as the match-ups go, naturally, not everyone will have their favorite be a victor. The notion of "hate-voting" within a tournament system isn't anything new. In actual sports, I see that kind of phenomenon all the time. EDIT: I suppose the section can be reworked to show the relative fandom of one character over another via an organized voting system. KyuuA4 07:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. That's cleaned up. KyuuA4 19:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Japanese slang

Can this article be re-named Moe (Japanese slang)? The term "moe" is English slang means homosexual male.

Well, checked out UrbanDictionary on that. There's at least one entry depicting it. Yet, the primary use is the very same as this article. Nevertheless, why not use Moe (anime) (or manga) instead. KyuuA4 08:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing reference to Clarisse being first female doujinshi subject

Hello. I wanted to say that I removed the sentence in reference to Clarisse that "She was the first female character to be parodied in doujinshi, which later became a common practice for later female idols." You can find some evidence to support this edit in the first year and a half or so of Animage magazine, which predated the December 1979 release of The Castle of Cagliostro. Animage ran a section called "My Animage" which would contain both fan art and blurbs on recent doujinshi releases, and you can see by the covers that female characters were fairly well represented. It is certainly possible that Clarisse was an early icon of what would later be called moe, but perhaps it should also be noted that Clarisse wasn't even the first Miyazaki character that would be called moe today; Lana, the twin-tail heroine of his 1978 TV series Future Boy Conan would have likely qualified. I should note that I don't personally believe Miyazaki started moe; I think like a lot of concepts, it's something that developed slowly over time, and from multiple sources. You can certainly find the idea in Osamu Tezuka's work, for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carl Horn (talk • contribs) 22:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

True. A sentence such as (from the article as written now: "Some say that the popularity of the concept may have started with Hayao Miyazaki's Clarisse from his film The Castle of Cagliostro in the late 1970s.") - the phrase "some say" uses a WP:weasel word, as "some" questions "who". Yet, by nature of slang, it can be rather difficult to trace the etymology -- and early examples of such. Therefore, any character deemed as the "first moe character" will always be questionable; and so, determination of such is limited to guess work. KyuuA4 (talk) 22:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)