Talk:MV Awa Maru

you may find this of interest as it clears up the myth of any lost treasure

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/cryptologic_spectrum/sinkingawa_maru.pdf 94.175.50.143 (talk) 20:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Interesting read, I'll probably incorporate some of the information into the article, if nobody else does, here in the next few days. One thing though: I can't find the name of the author? Did I overlook it? Boneyard90 (talk) 23:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

The article already cites that reference as National Security Agency. Glrx (talk) 04:34, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Sinking a War Crime?

A recent edit added the sinking of the Awa Maru as a US war crime. Has it ever been determined to be such? Isn't the sinking of a hospital ship serving as a freighter the sinking of a freighter? Loughlin was found guilty of negligence—not following the order "don't sink this ship" and nothing more. user:JMOprof ©¿©¬ 14:56, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing in the article that mentions it is a war crime. The simple thing to do here is demand a reliable source that says it is a war crime.

No one doubts that a US submarine sunk a ship that was granted safe conduct. It was not actually a hospital ship; the reason for the safe passage guarantee was for POW deliveries; the US probably expected the ship to also carry war material; conduct back home was also guaranteed; I doubt anyone would expect the ship to travel empty. It does not matter that the ship was serving as a freighter (it was used to haul POW freight). The criminal issue is intent, and the court martial apparently found no intent. The skipper did not know the ship would be in his area; he did a radar attack (a bit incredible); fog obscured his view (so he could not see the ship's marking). There's plenty to say taking a shot in the dark is negligent; even if the skipper didn't know about the Awa Maru, the ship he fired on could have been a hospital ship.

The sources that I've seen do not label it a war crime, but I'm sure that was the official Japanese viewpoint at the time.

I think it is OK to remove the category.

Glrx (talk) 22:02, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I tend toward wanting to remove the category. However, I believe it was investigated as a war crime. The sub's commander was court martialed, and as pointed out, found guilty of negligence. I'm not sure "war crime" was the seperate category of crime that is is today, but he was found guilty of a punishable offense during war. Whether that's justifiable to be labelled as a crime, we should defer to either sources or precedent. - Boneyard90 (talk) 16:13, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Loughlin's saving mistake, if you will, was that he used anti-destroyer torpedo settings when firing against a larger ship. Meaning Loughlin was either exceedingly devious, or he didn't comprehend what he was about. I'll remove it shortly. Then, if it comes back, let's point the editor here. user:JMOprof ©¿©¬ 16:53, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

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Citation: Shimoda having survived two previous shipwrecks

I have been trying to track down the history of the survivor Kantora Shimoda. The note here says that he had survived two prior wrecks, but it is Citation Needed. This UPI article attributes the claim to Cmdr. Loughlin. Add a citation?

E. C. Ambrose

Was the Awa Maru a hospital ship when it was sunk?

I tried to add the Awa Maru as an example of a hospital ship to the linked Wikipedia article, but it was removed (by an anonyous user with a Japanese IP address) with the reason given that the Awa Maru was not a hospital ship.

Checking the Awa Maru article, I confirmed that it said the Awa Maru was "sailing as a hospital ship under the protection of the Red Cross" when it sank. But in the cited source (The Sinking and the Salvage of the Awa Maru (U): A Strange and Tragic Tale (U)) the term "hospital ship" does not appear. It says the Awa Maru was shipping Red Cross relief supplies (among other things), but it does not say the Awa Maru was carrying patients or providing medical treatment.

Therefore, I removed the term "hospital ship" from the Awa Maru article. However, it was added back along with a new source "Hospital Ships (AH)": http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/H/o/Hospital_Ships.htm

The new source is from The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia, which appears to be the work of one man, Kent Budge, who describes himself as a computational physicist with an interest in WWII history. In the website's FAQ he compares it to Wikipedia.

The Internet Archive's oldest snapshot of the "Hospital Ships (AH)" page suggests that Budge's source of information on the Awa Maru is "Silent Victory: The U.S. Submarine War Against Japan" by Clay Blair, published in 1975. While I don't have a copy of the book on hand, Google Books reveals that the Awa Maru is listed as a "Japanese relief supply ship" on page 1009: https://books.google.com/books?id=Iep8AAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=awa+maru

Elsewhere in this Talk page it is asked whether the Awa Maru should count as a hospital ship or a freighter, to which another user responds that the Awa Maru was "not actually a hospital ship": Talk:MV_Awa_Maru_(1942)#Sinking_a_War_Crime?

I have not found more reliable sources that clearly state the Awa Maru was a hopsital ship. Most pages that mention "hospital ship" in connection with the Awa Maru appear to be copied from this Wikipedia entry.

I am not a subject matter expert myself. If any of the other users involved in editing this article (such as User:Boneyard90, User:JMOprof, or User:Glrx) have more to add, I would welcome the information. As it stands, I am inclined to think that the term "hospital ship" should not be used in this article to describe the Awa Maru. -Mysterius (talk) 06:25, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it was ever an officially designated "hospital ship" or from a class of ships for medical purposes. From the reading, it seems to me that because the Awa Maru was transporting wounded troops back to Japan, and it was sailing under conditions brokered by the Red Cross, it is considered a "hospital ship" for the intents and purposes of that particular voyage. I look at the designation "hospital ship" in this sense as an "honorary" or temporary designation, as it is understood that the ship was not armed, not to be considered a legitimate target, with purpose and objectives that were medically related. - Boneyard90 (talk) 19:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Do we have a source that says the Awa Maru was ferrying wounded troops? According to the available sources, the Awa Maru does not appear to have been carrying wounded patients.

The Sinking and the Salvage of the Awa Maru states: "Besides carrying vitally needed raw materials to keep the Japanese war effort going, the ship had aboard passengers especially selected from throughout Southeast Asia. These were VIPs and technicians with skills and know-how desperately needed in the homeland. In all, there were 2,004 people on board."

Dingman's Ghost of War: The Sinking of the Awa Maru and Japanese-American Relations, 1945-1995 notes that the Awa Maru was "misidentified" as a hospital ship on page 291: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ghost_of_War/VwdnAAAAMAAJ?gbpv=1&bsq=%22hospital%20ship%22

A review of Dingman's book in the Journal of American-East Asian Relations states: "The Japanese vessel, travelling under an American guarantee of safe passage, was crammed with over two thousand civilian men, women, and children."

It further states that when it was sunk on its return voyage, the Awa Maru was carrying: "military, naval, diplomatic, and colonial officials and their families, on its fateful return trip."

Hospital ships are not the only type of vessel that may be granted safe-conduct. As Dingman describes on page 14, "international legal norms that allowed a neutral ship undere International Red Cross auspices and travelling with a safe-conduct to carry relief supplies to those in enemy custody": https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/VwdnAAAAMAAJ?gbpv=1&bsq=%22Red%20Cross%22

It appears the Awa Maru was granted safe passage, not as a hospital ship, but rather under its status as a ship carrying relief supplies for POWs.

I suggest that the article state the Awa Maru was "sailing as a neutral ship under International Red Cross auspices" when she was sunk. - Mysterius (talk) 00:51, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Sure. I also found a source describing the Awa Maru as a "relief ship", if you'd prefer this term. [See this book review http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/books/ships/comfort/index.htm]. The Awa Maru may have been described as a "hospital ship" not only because it was carrying Allied POWs (which are generally thought of as in need of medical attention, due to conditions in camps), but also because the ship prominently displayed white crosses during its voyage to Japan, and because its sinking may have inspired reprisal raids against actual Allied hospital ships, like the USS Comfort (AH-6). Also, thank you for taking the time to engage in discussion to ensure accuracy. - Boneyard90 (talk) 21:21, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. "Relief ship" sounds good. Blair's Silent Victory also lists the Awa Maru as a "relief supply ship", as mentioned ealier, and the current article already uses the term elsewhere to describe the Awa Maru ("In 1945 the Awa Maru was employed as a Red Cross relief ship..."), so it would be consistent to use the term.

As for POWs, as far as I can tell the Awa Maru did not carry the POWs themselves, but it did carry relief supplies which were delivered to Allied POWs.

The information about how the sinking of the Awa Maru may have led to the attack on the USS Comfort is interesting. Might be worth adding to the article, if anyone wants to take a shot.

I'll edit the article to state that the Awa Maru was sailing as a "relief ship" and cite the book from that review (Dale P. Harper's Too Close for Comfort, Chapter XII: The Queenfish-Awa Maru Incident). - Mysterius (talk) 08:23, 3 September 2020 (UTC)