Talk:List of presidents of Brazil

Untitled

Does "renounced" mean "resigned"? Art LaPella 23:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Observation

Lula is the 39th president, for Julio Prestes and Tancredo Neves never swear (the first revolution of 1930, the second for getting sick on the eve of possession and soon died)! Rodrigues Alves had a mandate and died before the second term swear! Moreover, even had the Board of Governors and military, accounted for respectively, replace the possession of Julio Prestes, and represent the termination of the mandate of Costa e Silva! That is, 39 presidents have ruled the country, being the last of President Lula, right? I made the same observation in Portuguese Wikipedia!

Several Problems with the List

There are several problems with this list as it stands:

- First, this is a list of Presidents, but the list includes, without any special qualification or observation, the names of people who never held that office, and those people are listed with name, picture and dates of service, as if they were Presidents (e.g. members of the Military Juntas of 1930 and 1969; Ranieri Mazilli's first period of service -- in which he was only Acting President until the inauguration of Goulart, etc). One who reads the list has the impression that Isaias de Noronha, for example, was president, and that is not correct, as he was only a member of a Junta.

- Second, Deodoro da Fonseca and Getúlio Vargas served as Heads of the Provisional Government before being elected President in 1891 and 1934, respectively. Deodoro was Head of Provisional Government from November 15th, 1889 until February 1891, and Vargas was Head of Provisional Government from 1930 to 1934. The period served in that capacity should not be confused with the Presidency. One who reads the list has the impression that Deodoro became President in 1889 and that Vargas became president in 1930, which is innacurate. So the list should be changed to reflect two distinct terms of service.

- Regarding Vargas, perhaps the list should also be amended to separate his term before and after his coup d'état of November 10, 1937, when he became a dictator until being deposed in 1945.

- The list says that Tancredo Neves died on the eve of his inauguration; that is plain wrong. He was to be inaugurated on March 15, 1985, when his term would begin. On the eve of inauguration day, he fell ill and was hospitalized, which prevented him from attending his inauguration, but he did not die until April 21, 1985. So, for weeks, there was hope that he would recover and take office. Vice-President Sarney took the oath of office as Vice-President on March 15, and immediately assumed the powers of the presidency as Acting President. Sarney only assumed the title of President after Tancredo Neves' death on April 21, and a separate joint session of Congress recorded that fact. So it is wrong to say that Neves died on the eve of his inauguration.

- Also regarding Tancredo Neves, although he died on April 21, 1985, weeks into the term of office to which he was elected, he never took the presidential oath before Congress, as required by Brazil's Constitution, as he was hospitalized on the eve of the inauguration. So, he actually died a President elect, and not a President of Brazil, as his investiture before Congress, required by the Constitution, never took place. For that reason, in honour to his memory, Congress passed, and on the first anniversary of Neves' death President Sarney signed the Law 7.465 of 1986, declaring that Neves should be counted, for all legal intents and purposes, among the Presidents of Brazil. Therefore, he wasn't actually President, but is counted among them by special provision of law, and that fact should also be registered in the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antonio Basto (talk • contribs) 16:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I today implemented several changes to the list so as to address the problems mentioned above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.122.228.125 (talk) 21:34, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Adding Dilma

Adding Dilma Rouseff as the successor of Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, his election victory has just been officially announced in Brazil. Sources: [1]
- Eduardo Sellan III (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I removed that. She was elected indeed, but she was never a president of Brazil... not yet.” T_eLeS (PT @ L C G) 18:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Not so, Júlio Prestes and Tancredo Neves also never took possession and are on the list. It is possible that Dilma be unable to assume the Presidency of Brazil, but if this happens it will be recorded in the list even without her taking office. - Eduardo Sellan III (talk) 15:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

"It is possible that Dilma be unable to assume the Presidency of Brazil" - That's right... it's "possible". As you said, she didn't assume the presidency. She is not and never was the president of Brazil and would not be correct to list her on list of "presidents" if she is not. We have to wait until she takes office. By the way, the others were not presidents either.” T_eLeS (PT @ L C G) 19:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

End of term

In Brazil, a President's term of office ends on 31 December at midnight, and the successor's term begins immediately on 1 January. The President elect must still take the constitutional oath in the presence of Congress before entering into the office. But, on January 1st, the former President is no longer President, even before the President-elect takes the oath. That is why in the congressional procès-verbal recording President Dilma Rousseff's inauguration it was recorded that she was invested in the presidency for the period of "January 1st, 2011 to December 31, 2014". Although a former President is allowed to use the Planalto Palace and to wear the Presidential sash until the point in the inauguration ceremonies when he passes the sash to the sucessor, that is purely a matter of courtsey and ceremony, the former President having left office since midnight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.122.228.125 (talk) 13:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The end of term dates are again incorrect for all Presidents who completed their terms normally. This is because legally, in Brazil, the term of office ends at midnight (just as was the case in America before the 20th Amendment, when one president's term ended on March 3rd, and another president was sworn in on March 4th). However, because there is this incorrect perception by people who are not legal experts that one President serves until his successor is inaugurated (or even until the presidential sash is ceremonially passed on), even the gallery of presidential portraits in the presidency's website mentions January 1st as the current end of term date for one President, and as the beggining of term date for the successor. This is wrong. The "instruments of investiture" (termos de posse) signed before Congress on inauguration day clearly state 31 December as the last day of the presidential term. For instance, Dilma Rousseff's document of investiture for her second four-year term mentions that she was invested as President for the term "from 1 January 2015 to 31 December 2018". Therefore, a portrait gallery in a website, even if it is the presidency's website, cannot prevail over the legal reality of the end of term date Here is a link to President Lula's second term instrument of investiture, mentioning that he would serve until December 31, 2010: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg —Preceding comment added by 179.218.128.136 on 2016-04-16 14:10:14 (UTC)

This is a good observation, and the picture of the document "Termo de Posse" was a great evidence. I hope this talk section does not get "archived". Someone just tried to "fix" those dates once again, but I have reverted them (this seems to happen quite often on this page--this is already the third time). To be clear: the term of presidency in Brazil legally ends at midnight of the day before the new president assumes the office. --HYC (talk) 04:26, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Someone messed with the term dates again, I will fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.218.103.150 (talk) 17:26, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

End of term dates have been unduly tampered with again. I'm tired of fixing this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.16.109.25 (talk) 20:50, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I again fixed end of term dates, that had been wrongly changed, ans without discusson. Perhaps protection is in order?

Leave them alone. The terms of office DO NOT end at midnight. You're causing confusion with the bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 13:05, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

RFC: When does a President's & Vice President's term end?

We're having a bit of a dispute as to when the President's & Vice President's term of office ends.

Is it
A) at midnight.
B) during the next day, when the inauguration is held.
GoodDay (talk) 13:19, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

What does the constitution actually say? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:15, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Any reader who can read Portuguese will confirm that in the above link there is an image of the official instrument of investiture for President Lula's second term, stating that that term would end on 31 December 2010. This is written as "trinta e um de dezembro de dois mil e dez" right there, in Portuguese. This proves that 31 December is the end of term date. As for the Constitution, article 82 states that the President's term starts on January 1st of the year following the election, and lasts for four years. There is no precise time set for when the ceremonies of investiture need to take place, but the term of office starts to run from midnight on January 1st and that's why the official investiture documents state that they end on 31 December. Otherwise the president would serve four years and one day. Governors of States are also sworn in on 1 January and some of them have indeed held their investiture ceremonies very early on January 1st so that they could attend the President's inauguration in Brasilia later on the same date. Anyway, the investiture documents prove that 31 December is the end of term date, officialy declared in them.

See: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg Antonio Basto (talk) 02:56, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Shouldn't Neves have been considered the 31st President (March 15 - April 21, 1985)? Oath or no oath, it appears to suggest his term of office legally began at mid-night March 15, 1985. If the oath is required to assume office, then that would mean that the Brazilian presidency & vice presidency is vacant every 4 years for a few hours. GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

That's exactly the case: no one can sign documents as President for a few hours on inauguration day. The former President still resides at the Palace and still wears the presidential sash as a matter of protocol only until the point of the inaugural ceremonies when he hands over the sash, but no acts of governance can be performed by the former President on January 1st. Any last minute decisions (such as President Lula's decision not to extradite criminal Cesare Battisti to Italy, are signed on December 31). From January 1st midnight, the new term of office begins to run its course, but the President-elect still needs to take the oath of office and sign the corresponding instrument of investiture before Congress, in order to become President. So there is a vacancy in the presidency for a few hours. In 1985, that vacancy lasted for weeks, since Tancredo Neves could not take the oath on 15 March 1985 (inauguration day), and eventually died on 21 April 1985. During that time, Vice President Sarney (who took the oath before Congress and signed the instrument of investiture as Vice-President on 15 March) served as Acting President. There was a President-elect, whose term of office had already begun, but that hadn't yet appeared before Congress to be sworn-in, and there was a Vice-President functioning as Acting President. Antonio Basto (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

So every few hours, every 4 years, the speaker is acting president, as the presidency & vice presidency are vacant. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

No one acts as President during that brief time, but, yes, if an emergency ocurred before the inauguration of the President and of the Vice-President and they could not take office before addressing it, the speaker could act as President. It is a situation that other countries remedied, for instance the United States: when America adopted the 20th Amendment, it made the point of establishing that from thenceforth the terms of office would run from noon. Even so, in the case of the inauguration of John Kennedy severe snowfall delayed the start of the ceremonies for more than one hour. Kennedy took the oath of office after 1 p.m. And America has a tradition of doing its best to avoid delays of this sort (LBJ took the oath at the Airport in Dallas because it was deemed more prudent doing so at once rather than waiting to arrive in Washington). But Brazil still keeps this brief interval during which no one discharges the powers of the presidency on inauguration day, while all wait for the President-elect to take office. Antonio Basto (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Not to get off topic, but sources were given over the years that before the 20th amendment, the US presidents & vice presidents terms ended at Noon EST of March 4. If you dispute this? you may bring your assertions to the talk pages of List of Presidents of the United States & List of Vice Presidents of the United States. -- GoodDay (talk) 21:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

As a lawyer myself, I once came across a newspaper article written at the time of President Wilson's inauguration in America (https://www.nytimes.com/1916/11/15/archives/wilson-to-take-the-oath-sunday-first-swearing-into-office-on-march.html), adressing the American habit, at the time, of the president not taking the oath of office on Inauguration Day if it fell on a Sunday (nowadays an oath is ideed taken in that situation, but privately, and then followed by the public oath the next day; but back then no oath was taken on Sundays, and Wilson was the first to opt for the private Sunday oath). In making the argument that the delay in taking the oath to honour this tradition was not problematic, the writter quoted a 19th century text by Chief Justice John Marshall, citing that American inaugurations were traditionally held at noon on March 4th, and that therefore there was a brief time in which the country was left without a President and "the executive power was suspended", but that if some emergency required the elect to act urgently, nothing prevented him from taking the oath in the morning. Reading the article, one sees that it is predicated on the premise that the term of office prior to the 20th Amendment started on March 4th together with the date (at midnight), and so the President-elect could take office in the morning if it was necessary (while the former President could no longer act since his term had already expired). Also, the NYT article mentions the US State Department's view that one term of office was immediately followed by the other, but that there was a natural delay between the termination of one presidency and the start of another, due to the question of needing to wait for the inaugural ceremony and the taking of the oath. So, during this brief time, the new term had already started, but the President-elect was not yet sworn in, so that the exercise of power was briefly suspended. Now, I don't claim any expertise in the American question. As for Brazil, however, the text of the instrument of investiture settles the question that the term ends on December 31. Antonio Basto (talk) 21:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but you're wrong. The outgoing US President's term ended at Noon EST on March 4. But again, you can take that up at the aforementioned articles. GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

You see @Coltsfan:, I was on the 'oath of office' side of the argument. But, met strong resistance here. GoodDay (talk) 13:12, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

No source was presented otherwise. Like in the Jair Bolsonaro source, a president is only president after the oath of office, and the former president is still in power, still using the presidential sash, with full powers, and still listed as commander in chief. People can say whatever they want, but unless they show reliable sources, it's original research, and this must be completed at every turn. ALL content attributed to wikipedia articles must have reliable sources. Plus, see portuguese wikipedia. They listed the old president as leaving the office as the new one takes over, not in the previous day. Coltsfan (talk) 13:20, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

You're still missing some of them. Date fixatures are required for all of them. GoodDay (talk) 13:17, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a working progress. It's not all or nothing. I'm trying to make the changes, in according to the sources, but you are reverting. That's vandalism. Coltsfan (talk) 13:20, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Here are the official sources for 31 December: 1) Here is a link to President Lula's instrument of investiture for his second term, mentioning Thirty First December Twenty Ten as the end of term date: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg ; 2) Here you can browse the Diary of the National Congress of 1 September 2016, containing the full transcript of the joint session of 31 August 2016, and you will see that the President of Congress declared, after Michel Temer's oath: "Declaro empossado no cargo de Presidente da República Federativa do Brasil o Excelentíssimo Senhor Presidente Michel Temer, para o período de 31 de agosto de 2016 a 31 de dezembro de 2018." (I declare invested in the office of President of the Federative Republic of Brazil the Most Excellent Mr. Michel Temer, for the period from 31 August 2016 to 31 December 2018) - http://legis.senado.leg.br/diarios/PublicacoesOficiais ; 3) here you can watch the video of the Congressional Joint session, and witness the President of Congress saying the same thing at 7 minutes 20 seconds until 7 minutes 44 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piNNdXnHYkg Antonio Basto (talk) 13:28, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

You're missing the earlier presidents & vice presidents, with their November 14/15 dates. You see, all of them went by the 'midnight' dates. GoodDay (talk) 13:21, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Turning once again to the question of sources: 1) Here is a link to President Lula's instrument of investiture for his second term, mentioning Thirty First December Twenty Ten as the end of term date: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg ; 2) Here you can browse the Diary of the National Congress of 1 September 2016, containing the full transcript of the joint session of 31 August 2016, and you will see that the President of Congress declared, after Michel Temer's oath: "Declaro empossado no cargo de Presidente da República Federativa do Brasil o Excelentíssimo Senhor Presidente Michel Temer, para o período de 31 de agosto de 2016 a 31 de dezembro de 2018." (I declare invested in the office of President of the Federative Republic of Brazil the Most Excellent Mr. Michel Temer, for the period from 31 August 2016 to 31 December 2018) - http://legis.senado.leg.br/diarios/PublicacoesOficiais ; 3) here you can watch the video of the Congressional Joint session, and witness the President of Congress saying the same thing at 7 minutes 20 seconds until 7 minutes 44 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piNNdXnHYkg Antonio Basto (talk) 20:44, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

If you guys watched today's inauguration as I did, you will have seen that Mr. Bolsonaro was declared by the President of Congress to have taken possession of the presidency of the Republic for the term of office from 1 January 2019 to 31 December 2022. Tomorrow we will have that printed in the Congressional Journal. A user who refuses to accept the serveral official sources provided, just because they are in the Portuguese language, has turned this article into a mess and it is now filled with incorrect end of term dates. Antonio Basto (talk) 20:43, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

This is the Senate TV Youtube Broadcast of today's inauguration of President Bolsonaro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cGaJJwJ6is). Starting at 27 minutes and 34 seconds and ending at 28 minutes and 09 seconds, the President of Congress declares Bolsonaro and Mourão invested as President and Vice President of the Republic, respectively, both for the term of office from 1 January 2019 until 31 December 2022 (he says the words "trinta e um de dezembro de dois mil e vinte e dois", that is "trirty first December, two thousand and twenty two"). Antonio Basto (talk) 20:53, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to leave it up to you both @Antonio Basto: & @Coltsfan:, to figure it out. If we could just get the community to take interest in this topic, then a solution would be found. GoodDay (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

ok. This is the link to the official record of the Congressional Joint Sitting of 1 January 2019, held for the inauguration of President Bolsonaro and Vice-President Mourão: http://www.camara.leg.br/internet/escriba/escriba.asp?codSileg=54479 . This comes directly from the website of the Chamber of Deputies of Brazil. It is the official transcript of the Joint Congressional sitting held for the presidential swearing-in. It is recorded that the President of Congress said: "Com os poderes que me são outorgados pela Constituição Federal, declaro empossados nos cargos de Presidente e Vice-Presidente da República Federativa do Brasil o Exmo. Sr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro e o Exmo. Sr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, respectivamente, para o período de 1º de janeiro de 2019 a 31 de dezembro de 2022." You guys can copy paste this to Google Translate and see that in English it will read (with the usual Google Translate imperfections) "With the powers granted to me by the Federal Constitution, I hereby declare that the President and Vice-President of the Federative Republic of Brazil, Mr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro and his Exmo. Mr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, respectively, for the period from January 1, 2019 to December 31, 2022." A more correct translation would be "With the powers granted to me by the Federal Constitution, I hereby declare invested as President and Vice-President of the Federative Republic of Brazil, the Most Excellent Mr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro and the Most Excellent Mr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, respectively, for the period from January 1, 2019 to December 31, 2022." Antonio Basto (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

In addition to that, the official transcript of yesterday's Joint Congressional sitting, in the link provided above (http://www.camara.leg.br/internet/escriba/escriba.asp?codSileg=54479), contains the transcript of the moment when the First Secretary of Congress read out the instrument of investiture that was signed by Mr. Bolsonaro and by the other authorities. The instrument of investiture has the following text: Às 15 horas dia 1º de janeiro de 2019, perante o Congresso Nacional, reunido em sessão conjunta de suas Casas, no plenário da Câmara dos Deputados, nesta cidade de Brasília, Capital da República Federativa do Brasil, sob a direção da Mesa do Congresso Nacional, presidida pelo Sr. Senador Eunício Oliveira e secretariada pelo Sr. Primeiro-Secretário, Deputado Giacobo, integrando ainda a Mesa o Presidente da Câmara dos Deputados, Deputado Rodrigo Maia, o Sr. Presidente do Supremo Tribunal Federal, Ministro Dias Toffoli, a Procuradora-Geral da República, Raquel Dodge, e o Primeiro-Vice-Presidente da Mesa do Congresso Nacional, Deputado Fábio Ramalho, compareceram o Sr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro e o Sr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, que, nos termos do art. 78 da Constituição Federal, foram solenemente empossados nos cargos de Presidente e Vice-Presidente da República, respectivamente, para os quais foram eleitos no dia 28 de outubro de 2018, e diplomados pelo Tribunal Superior Eleitoral no dia 10 de dezembro do mesmo ano, para o período de 1º de janeiro de 2019 a 31 de dezembro de 2022. Os empossados proferiram, na forma do citado artigo da Constituição, o seguinte compromisso: “Prometo manter, defender e cumprir a Constituição, observar as leis, promover o bem geral do povo brasileiro, sustentar a união, a integridade e a independência do Brasil.” E, de conformidade com o disposto no art. 65 do Regimento Comum do Congresso Nacional, Luiz Fernando Bandeira de Mello Filho, Secretário-Geral da Mesa do Senado Federal, lavrou o presente termo, que é assinado pelos empossados e pelos membros da Mesa que dirigiu os trabalhos da sessão. Just copy paste that to Google Translate, and you will confirm the following English Translation, with the usual Google Translate imperfections, but clear enough on the point here discussed, CONFIRMING THAT THE END OF TERM DATE IS 31 DECEMBER 2022, NOT 1 JANUARY 2023: At 3:00 pm on January 1, 2019, before the National Congress, gathered in a joint session of their Houses, in the plenary of the Chamber of Deputies, in this city of Brasília, Capital of the Federative Republic of Brazil, under the direction of the National Congress Bureau , chaired by Mr. Senator Eunice Oliveira and secretary of the First Secretary, Deputy Giacobo, the President of the Chamber of Deputies, Deputy Rodrigo Maia, the President of the Federal Supreme Court, Minister Dias Toffoli, the Prosecutor -Gerald of the Republic, Raquel Dodge, and the First Vice-President of the Bureau of the National Congress, Deputy Fábio Ramalho, attended Mr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro and Mr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, who, according to art. 78 of the Federal Constitution, were solemnly sworn in as President and Vice President of the Republic, respectively, for which they were elected on October 28, 2018, and graduated by the Higher Electoral Court on December 10, the period from January 1, 2019 to December 31, 2022. The nominees issued, in the form of the aforementioned article of the Constitution, the following commitment: "I promise to maintain, defend and comply with the Constitution, observe the laws, promote the general good of the Brazilian people, sustain the union, integrity and independence of Brazil." And, in accordance with the provisions of art. 65 of the Common Regiment of the National Congress, Luiz Fernando Bandeira de Mello Filho, Secretary General of the Bureau of the Federal Senate, drafted the present term, which is signed by the delegates and members of the Bureau who directed the work of the session. Antonio Basto (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

On the basis of the official sources above, I think it is clear that I can now correct the article, and that further erroneous information regarding a supposed end of term date on January 1st should not be reintroduced. Antonio Basto (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I have just corrected the article. In addition to the web version of the official transcript of yesterday's Congressional Joint Session for the Presidential Inauguration, here is the link to the pdf version of the same transcript, in the website of the Brazilian Chamber of Deputies: https://escriba.camara.leg.br/escriba-servicosweb/pdf/54479. This is further confirmation of the text quoted above, explicitly mentioning in the inauguration of the President itself 31 December 2022 as the end of term date, and thus confirming that presidential terms officially end on 31 December, not on January 1st. Antonio Basto (talk) 15:59, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

The sources above are accurate, but insufficient. Take a look at the Presidential library. This confirms Temer's ends of term as 31st of December 2018, but states earlier presidents (Dilma's first term, Lula, FHC, Itamar Franco) end of term as 1st January. In summary Temer is the ONLY president thus far to have a term end on 31st Dec (which he inherited from Dilma's second term mandate. Bolsonaro, assuming he makes it to the end, will be the second. The other presidents mentioned above should have a term end of 1st Jan. Bagunceiro (talk) 11:43, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move, per the related discussions at List of Presidents of the United States and the bundled request at Talk:List of Federal Presidents of Austria#Requested move. This issue may need a more comprehensive discussion.Cúchullain ^t/c 15:06, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

---

List of Presidents of Brazil → List of presidents of Brazil – Per WP:CAPS, no apparent reason for caps here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:17, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Dicklyon (talk) 02:51, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - See Same here. Seems like all the "List of Presidents of COUNTRY X" have been requested to be renamed by Dicklyon. --MrBoire (talk) 18:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Not all yet; still testing the waters. This one because there is no basis at President of Brazil or in sources to claim that capitalization is needed.

• Oppose as already said at Talk:List of Federal Presidents of Austria#Requested move. --Sundostund (talk) 23:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support, Same again - has the collapse of bot listing meant all the other support Users missed this one? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Nancy Atlee The Absolutely Essential Grammar Guide 2005 Page 23 "Capitalize president and vice president only when referring to the incumbent officer or when the title comes directly before the person's name." In ictu oculi (talk) 02:15, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose as stated repeatedly at all the other places that Dicklyon has tried to take his un-Capitalization Crusade. Is this supposed to be a mole-whacking game? LittleBen (talk) 08:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, working to gradually improve articles toward better compliance with WP:MOS is very much a mole-whacking game, and you are one of the moles. If you have reasons to oppose here, it would be good to state them. Dicklyon (talk) 21:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support, unless, logically, the opposers are insisting that Politician and Cleaner and Candlestick Maker also be capped. Where would that slippery slop end? Tony (talk) 00:10, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• Comment for closing admin, the same editor has opened two other RMs that affect the same set of articles, please see Talk:List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States#Requested_move and try to close them together. I have replied only in that RM because I don't want to copy/paste the same arguments in every page- --Enric Naval (talk) 13:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

This one should be a complete no-brainer, I thought, as the article President of Brazil and its sources don't even capitalize in that context, so we certainly wouldn't suddenly make a proper name in the "list of" context. The opposers have not said anything to contradict the rationale I started with: "no apparent reason for caps here", especially considering sources and our WP:CAPS, MOS:CAPS and WP:JOBTITLES. So if there are arguments to be made, you better make them. Dicklyon (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support, unnecessary capitalisation. And the U.S. presidents (and any other as well) should be decapitalised as well. --The Evil IP address (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)s, even o
• Support: Titles like this, even of royalty (kings, dukes, emperors, etc.) are never capitalized except when they precede the name of a specific individual (President Lincoln, Queen Elizabeth II, but presidents of the United States, kings and queens of England). — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 09:13, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
• Talk:List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States#Requested_move was closed as "No move". Many people commented there but not here. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I completely agree with closing as "No move" at Talk:List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States#Requested_move. I think same should be done here, because that list was always cited as an example for what to do in these cases. --Sundostund (talk) 22:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Should Vice President Michel Temer, be included in the list?

IMHO, Vice President Michel Temer should not be included in the list, as he's not President of Brazil. He's still Vice President & has only assumed the presidential powers & duties as Acting President. GoodDay (talk) 16:41, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Yep, not his turn, yet. Frenditor (talk) 21:52, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

On the other hand, Portuguese wiki now lists Temer, marked as interim. LookLook36 (talk) 12:04, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

So it's wrong then. He "assumed" as much as when the president travels to the exterior. BTW, don't know why there's two articles, but Presidents of Brazil needs a watchful eye too. Frenditor (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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== Several Problems with the List == There are several problems with this list as it stands: - First, this is a list of Presidents, but the list includes, without any special qualification or observation, the names of people who never held that office, and those people are listed with name, picture and dates of service, as if they were Presidents (e.g. members of the Military Juntas of 1930 and 1969; Ranieri Mazilli's first period of service -- in which he was only Acting President until the inauguration of Goulart, etc). One who reads the list has the impression that Isaias de Noronha, for example, was president, and that is not correct, as he was only a member of a Junta. - Second, Deodoro da Fonseca and Getúlio Vargas served as Heads of the Provisional Government before being elected President in 1891 and 1934, respectively. Deodoro was Head of Provisional Government from November 15th, 1889 until February 1891, and Vargas was Head of Provisional Government from 1930 to 1934. The period served in that capacity should not be confused with the Presidency. One who reads the list has the impression that Deodoro became President in 1889 and that Vargas became president in 1930, which is innacurate. So the list should be changed to reflect two distinct terms of service. - Regarding Vargas, perhaps the list should also be amended to separate his term before and after his coup d'état of November 10, 1937, when he became a dictator until being deposed in 1945. - The list says that Tancredo Neves died on the eve of his inauguration; that is plain wrong. He was to be inaugurated on March 15, 1985, when his term would begin. On the eve of inauguration day, he fell ill and was hospitalized, which prevented him from attending his inauguration, but he did not die until April 21, 1985. So, for weeks, there was hope that he would recover and take office. Vice-President Sarney took the oath of office as Vice-President on March 15, and immediately assumed the powers of the presidency as Acting President. Sarney only assumed the title of President after Tancredo Neves' death on April 21, and a separate joint session of Congress recorded that fact. So it is wrong to say that Neves died on the eve of his inauguration. - Also regarding Tancredo Neves, although he died on April 21, 1985, weeks into the term of office to which he was elected, he never took the presidential oath before Congress, as required by Brazil's Constitution, as he was hospitalized on the eve of the inauguration. So, he actually died a President elect, and not a President of Brazil, as his investiture before Congress, required by the Constitution, never took place. For that reason, in honour to his memory, Congress passed, and on the first anniversary of Neves' death President Sarney signed the Law 7.465 of 1986, declaring that Neves should be counted, for all legal intents and purposes, among the Presidents of Brazil. Therefore, he wasn't actually President, but is counted among them by special provision of law, and that fact should also be registered in the list.

Substituted at 21:50, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Temer's photo needs replacement due to Vice-Presidential flag in the background

Temer's photo needs replacement, as the present photo has the Vice-Presidential Standard in the background. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.91.66.201 (talk) 20:01, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

He has not taken an official photo yet. Zelani (talk) 21:07, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Timeline

I'll add the other periods tomorrow or later this week, probably one timeline per period, but if you guys want me to, I can make one with all of them, all I'd need is to find a new color scheme for some parties with the same colors, probably like they did with the UK one where older parties are darker — Preceding unsigned comment added by SanQae (talk • contribs) 05:22, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Summary of the Second Republic

I noticed that the summary above the list of the Presidents of the second republic (post Vargas' ousting in 1945) fails to mention Kubitschek. It merely says Vargas, following his suicide in 1954, was "followed by a series of short term Presidents." The summary then proceeds to the events leading up to the 1964 coup. Kubitschek was an enormously significant figure in 20th century Brazil, developing the industrial sector enormously, and building Brasilia, the current capital. Would somebody with access to the appropriate sources and expertise be able to write a paragraph? Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.62.218 (talk) 01:25, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Presidents with military patents

Two military presidents who were elected by direct popular vote (Marshal of the Army Hermes da Fonseca and General of the Army Eurico Gaspar Dutra) are recorded as military presidents in the list. If this is the case, should President-elect Jair Bolsonaro also be recorded as a military president, given that he holds a lifelong military patent as a retired Army captain? The same applies to his vice-president elect, General Mourão, who is also a retired military officer. Their situation differs from other military Presidents who were not elected by the people (Deodoro and Floriano, in the First Republic, and the Presidents of the Military Dictatorship), but the situation of the President-elect and of the Vice-President elect is exactly the same as that of Hermes da Fonseca and Eurico Gaspar Dutra. Even the major newpapers reported on the fact that Bolsonaro was the third military officer to be freely and democratically elected President by the people. Thus,should we include the note mentioning him as a military president, or should we exclude the notes currently present at the entries for Presidents Hermes da Fonseca and Eurico Dutra?

I removed "military" observation from the entries of Marshal Hermes da Fonseca and General Eurico Dutra, as they were freely elected by the people just like Captain Jair Bolsonaro. All three were retired military officers when elected, but keep the military patent for life as a right, and yet should not be confused with other military presidents who ascended to office by means other than popular vote. Antonio Basto (talk) 23:09, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress

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Move discussion in progress

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Photograph of Bolsonaro with the presidential band

Why do they always remove the photograph of Bolsonaro in this article if it is and is also consistent with its context? It is irrelevant and invalid if this image is not aesthetically pleasing with that of the other presidents, it is invalid and irrelevant because it is purely personal opinion. Unfortunately, none of the anonymous editors of this article are going to argue with arguments on this article's discussion page which image of Bolsonaro is correct to place, instead they will continue constantly and arbitrarily changing the photo of Bolsonaro that I mention. Oli (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2023 (UTC)