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Talk:List of LGBT characters in modern written fiction/Archive 1

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Latest comment: 3 years ago by VivaciousArcanist in topic Sorting
Archive 1

Renaming

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Two questions:

  1. Shouldn't we rename this article to include lesbians explicitly?
  2. Should we include transgendered people characters in the list (and title), or should they be listed separately?

Aleta 02:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Categorising Fictional Characters

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

In Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional self-harmers (2nd nomination), a page of fictional characters was deleted because it would supposedly have to rely on editors' personal point of views, and how much is required to satisfy being on the list. As I raised in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional self-harmers, the same arguments apply to many lists of fictional characters, such as those which label characters as being gay or bisexual.

Is there any distinction I am missing, or should we AfD this one too? Mdwh 00:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there should be a problem if we can add references for them all. That way we're not relying on editors' POVs. --Belovedfreak 18:10, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Duane's Middle Kingdoms series

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Herewiss, Freelorn, and Segnbora are all primary characters -- three of the "Tale of the Five" that's the other title for the series. Gaylactic Spectrum Awards 2003--SarekOfVulcan 01:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Criteria and sourcing

Latest comment: 16 years ago13 comments4 people in discussion

As suggested in the recent stalemated deletion discussion, this list does need the criteria for inclusion laid out at the top, and each entry should be sufficiently sourced (through the primary source or secondary ones, as appropriate for the particular entry).

I am going to give the criteria a go and begin the sourcing process, but I encourage others to participate ASAP. I would also ask the Reference Police to give us some time to bring the list up to speed before deleting anything, or at least move objectionable entries to this discussion page for future sourcing.

I am also copying the following comments from the AfD discussion as they apply to this issue. TAnthony 14:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

One last comment - I was looking through some other lists (and their AfDs), and realized that unless we are sourcing each entry on this list with third party WP:V sources, it's essentially original research. Meaning, if I look in Time magazine and find on page 17 it refers to "Bill McGillicuddy, the gay person in the new Tom Clancy novel," then I should include it in this list. However, if I read through the new Tom Clancy novel looking for LGBT characters, that is almost the very definition of Original Research. From glancing at the list as it stands now, it is all OR except for about 13 lines, and all the rest needs to go. Deltopia 17:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment I would agree that it needs to be sourced. I would ask that if you do remove the unsourced entries before someone gets round to them, please copy them to the talk page. --Belovedfreak 18:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment I disagree. Based on my understanding of the WP guidelines, reading Tom Clancy's book and noting that Clancy says on page 17 of his hypothetical book that Bill McGillicuddy is a young, single, and gay police officer in the LAPD, and then referencing that fact in this list is not original research. It's using a primary source that anyone with access can verify. The reliable source in this example would be the book citation. Whether it's notable enough is another matter. However, original research would be making an interpretation, reaching a conclusion, or making a synthesis based on those and/or other sources. For example, using that fact (and maybe others) to reach a conclusion that the LAPD's view of gay cops in that novel's fictional universe has become positive would be original research, unless reliably sourced. — Becksguy 04:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Au Contraire It depends on the entry, anyway. I haven't ever read anything about Lestat, but judging by the nom, there is some analysis of the character that led someone to declare him LGBT. So, in your example, use of primary sources would be appropriate, but in Lestat's (or worse, Kirk and Spock's) case, the interpretation of the character and classifying him LGBT strikes me as OR. And again, this goes back to how we classify someone as LGBT. If Bill Mac wants to sleep with Humphrey, is he LGBT? Or does he have to follow through and -actually- sleep with him? What if he has a coming out and lives openly as a homosexual just to annoy his parents, although he doesn't really find himself attracted to men? What if what if what if...? I followed User:SatyrTN's advice and looked at the homosexual article, but that just tells me that different people identify themselves with different tags as they reach that point in their psychological evolution as a person -- using that as an article criterion strikes me as completely unworkable. (Further, the Malleability of Homosexuality paragraph at the end of the article makes the situation even less concrete.) Anyhow, without a solid, uncontroversial list of criteria, I don't think we can keep the list at all... (Blanket disclosure: I apologize if, through careless wording or ignorance of the issues, anything I've typed has offended anyone or trivialized anything anyone is sensitive about -- I'm largely ignorant of a lot of the issues that this segment of society faces, but I know there are a lot of burdens that the LGBT people bear, and I am sorry if my ignorance has been one of them.) Deltopia 18:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment - the problem of classifying someone as LGBT can be addressed by a) a clear lead paragraph which states explicitly the criteria for inclusion on the list. These criteria can be reached by consensus and based on definitions of lesbian, gay, bisexual etc, and can be drawn from the main articles. b) a section (eg. if the list was made into a table) for comments which could say why the character is considered (by independent sources) to be LGBT. The sexual orientation of many characters will of course be open to interpretation, but as long as it's the interpretation of reliable, verifiable, notable independent sources, then it's not original research. --Belovedfreak 20:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
— from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of LGBT characters in modern written fiction

Comments

That was a killer debate, and I am grateful for it; I learned a lot about Wikipolicies and deletion criteria. (There are an awful lot of those out there.) I would suggest, before letting go the issue, that a fictional character can be categorized in this arena by 'definition' or by 'description' -- but not by action. Definition if the author, in the work of fiction, says "Fred is a lesbian." Description if Time magazine publishes an article describing Fred as "the best gay cop in the screenplay." But by action, I think, you leave too much room for Kirk/Spock ambiguity -- and that way lie flamewars. Deltopia 01:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean action's not enough if, for example, the lead character is a male in an unambiguously sexual relationship with another male, and throughout the book has romantic/sexual encounters with other men, and with no women? Anyway, I've started to try & revamp the page a bit in my sandbox. Let me know what you think. I haven't attempted the criteria bit yet, but the first paragraph (shamelessly pinched from the List of LGB people) is useful in defining homosexuality & bisexuality. I am also wondering if maybe we should separate lesbian, gay & bisexual characters from transsexual characters the way that the people lists have been separated since the first three have more in common with each other than with transsexuality. Just a thought, what do other people think? Also, we could do with defining what we mean by modern fiction (& is there any reason why it's limited to modern fiction?). So many questions... --BelovedFreak 17:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think, from what I've read, actions are enough, but only because it doesn't work the other way -- if Fred lives in an unambiguously monogamous relationship with a person of the opposite gender, but Fred's author identifies him as a repressed bi, we would probably throw him on here. There are better examples, but that is one that illustrates why I think actions are almost ignorable. I may well be wrong and am willing to be convinced otherwise :) Deltopia 20:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Good sandbox start, Belovedfreak. I'd assist when it gets up to the main page. --Moni3 17:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Moni3
Awesome revision, Belovedfreak; you rock! And to answer your question about the limited genre, see List of LGBT figures in fiction and myth for the other lists which were split off the original master list. What do you think about me doing some kind of nav bar to go from one to the other? TAnthony 17:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah I think a nav bar would be a great idea, I wasn't even aware of the "myth" list until very recently, they kind of get lost otherwise. --BelovedFreak 18:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
As you can see, I've already implemented a nav box. TAnthony 18:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
That's great. I've added all the currently sourced items to my sandbox. Should I add that to the article & move the current unsourced list to the talkpage, or is it best to leave it as it is for now? --BelovedFreak 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, if we want others to contribute sources, I think we need to make it as simple as possible: we should format all (or most) current items into tables with a "source needed" tag {{fact|date=October 2007}} in the References column for each one. Since they're fictional and so not controversial, I think they can stay in as unsourced for a bit without being deleted to give us time to source them, and they can always be moved to the Talk page in table form.
BUT, to get the ball rolling, perhaps we should do as you say, put your sourced tables in and put the rest here, then add some back one by one in table format, starting with the ones that don't have sources yet but are obviously accurate. Let me know how I can help you make the initial change, I don't want to mess with your sandbox or get in the way. TAnthony 19:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I see your first point, it'd probably be better in some ways to leave the entries there to be sourced in due course, but just glancing over the list I can see some pretty questionable entries already, so I think I will just go ahead and move the list to the talkpage to be sorted. Hopefully with a concerted effort we can sort it within a short time. I will have a bash at it this weekend. As you can see I haven't addressed the criteria issue yet, so that still needs to be agreed upon. --BelovedFreak 20:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Also: what about transsexual characters? Are we keeping them in or making a separate page? --BelovedFreak 20:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Though they are certainly more prevalent than ever, I would say there are still few enough trans characters that they fit fine into the list: LGBT is still the most commen term, despite the choice made for the real-world LGB people lists. TAnthony 21:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Table width

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

If anyone could scrutinise the code and see if they can work out why the tables for "H" and "W" are shorter (or is it narrower?) than the others, that would be great. I can't work it out... --BelovedFreak 10:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. It seems to have sorted itself out. --BelovedFreak 23:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Request for comment on articles for individual television episodes and characters

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A request for comments has been started that could affect the inclusion or exclusion of episode and character, as well as other fiction articles. Please visit the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(fiction)#Final_adoption_as_a_guideline. Ikip (talk) 11:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Original list, to be sorted, referenced & readded to article page with citation & explanation

Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Please delete the characters from this list when transferred to the article. --BelovedFreak 10:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

A-C

  • An'desha shena Jor'ethan in Mercedes Lackey's Mage Storm trilogy (bi-sexual (attracted to Firesong)).
  • Aran'gar (also Halima Saranov) - The Wheel of Time series - Reincarnation of the lecherous male Forsaken Balthamel into a female body. His predilections remained intact, though his actions (as Halima Saranov) are ambiguous. Flirts with but will not sleep with men. (transgendered/bisexual?)
  • Asher from the Anita Blake series by Laurell K. Hamilton (bisexual)

D-H

  • Danielle Edwards - Two For One—a novel about having choices novel by Sean David Wright (bisexual) - Finance exec who has a straight boyfriend and a lesbian lover
  • Sky Eventide in Cate Tiernan's Sweep series (bisexual)
  • Henry Fitzroy - Tanya Huff's Vicki Nelson series (bisexual)
  • Jack Flash - Hal Duncan's Vellum & Ink (gay)
  • Fledge, the butler in Patrick McGrath's The Grotesque (bisexual)
  • Padraig Fleury - in Standish a novel by Erastes (gay)
  • Freelorn - prince of Arlen in Diane Duane's Middle Kingdoms series (bi)
  • Tylendel Frelennye - Mercedes Lackey's Last Herald Mage trilogy, lifebonded to Vanyel Ashkevron (gay)

I-M

  • Guido Maffeo in Anne Rice's Cry to Heaven (bisexual)
  • Mark Manning - Main character from the Mark Manning mystery series by Michael Craft. Finds out he's gay in the first novel, Flight Dreams.
  • Lord Sebastian Marchmain from Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited. One of the two central characters in the novel. (gay)
  • Marius in The Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice (bisexual)
  • Francis Marlowe - Iris Murdoch's The Black Prince Important character in novel. (gay)
  • max spendilten from the fictionpress series deep vortex written by alexpanda, max is bisexual and in a relationship with kai (female) and sam panda (male) (bisexual)
  • Jason Mellis - The narrator in N. A. Diaman's semi-autobiographical novel Second Crossing.
  • Raven Meltzer in Cate Tiernan's Sweep series (bisexual)
  • Thomas Messenger in Hal Duncan's novels Vellum & Ink.
  • Michelle - Main character in the Burke series of novels by Andrew Vachss. In Flood, the first novel, Michelle is a pre-operative MTF. She becomes the life partner of Mole in Blue Belle, and undergoes her operation after the thirteenth novel, Only Child. (transwoman)

N-R

S-Z

  • Ylsa - Mercedes Lackey's Queen's Own trilogy, lifebonded to Keren (lesbian)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Belovedfreak (talk • contribs) 20:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Dorian Gray

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Since Dorian Gray and Basil Hallward are never outed by the author (they are just interpreted that way by the researchers), I'm not sure they should be presented here. --Jet37 (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I can't comment on the actual interpretation as I've never read the book, but it seems to me that it's cited to a reliable source. A quick search on google books leads me to think that there is other reliable coverage of this. My suggestion would be to firstly, if you don't think the source used now is good enough, find a better one. Secondly, find a reliable source refuting this interpretation or suggesting that he is not a bisexual character, and then using that reference, add an explanation to the "details" section of the table in this list. If it's a case of homosexual subtext (as I say, I've never read it, so I don't know), then that can be explained. Those are my thoughts anyway.--BelovedFreak 15:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Nightrunner should retagged? Bisexual characters not really bi.

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Seregil expresses his dislike of sleeping with women in internal dialog. He is a homosexual that sleeps with women ONLY when required by his job (spy). I would list him as gay.

Alec likewise has only expressed interest in Seregil...... but he is new to the whole process and is still figuring out for himself what he is - but he did "marry" a man (Talímenios) and has not expressed interest interest in anyone else.

Micum Cavis is a candidate for Bisexual "tag." (ex lover of Seregil - now married with kids).

Spandox (talk) 17:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

What do the sources call him? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Wide misconception that Alec Scudder of Maurice is gay.

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Both the list of gay and the list of LGBT characters put Alec Scudder from Maurice as gay, and there are third party sources also stating this. He is even used as an example at the beginning of one of those pages. However, in the book he writes a letter saying and later tells the main character that it is natural to want women, and the main character also sees him kissing two maids. Surely the book's clear picture of him as bisexual should take precedence over third party sources?

Relevant book quotes: "Has Mr Borenius spoken to you about certain girls? I can't help being rather rough, it is some men's nature, but you should not treat me like a dog. It was before you came. It is natural to want a girl, you cannot go against human nature."-from Alec's letter to Maurice.

"For instance, as he drove up through the park he saw a gamekeeper dallying with two of the maids, and felt a pang of envy. The girls were damned ugly, which the man wasn't: somehow this made it worse, and he stared at the trio, feeling cruel and respectable; the girls broke away giggling, the man returned the stare furtively and then thought it safer to touch his cap; he had spoilt that little game."--92.29.147.216 (talk) 17:43, 3 June 2014 (UTC)92.29.147.216

Merges

Latest comment: 9 years ago11 comments4 people in discussion

merge of List of books featuring transgender persons

The content of List of books featuring transgender persons would all be content appropriately covered in this article. There is no need to attempt to maintain the information in 2 spots. (There is so little sourced content in that article that in actuality there is practically nothing to merge). -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:24, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

  • support. This one covers the scope of the smaller list, I agree no need for dual maintenance.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:11, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
  • partial support. I think the list should be separated into categories. If someone is looking for books with trans characters, they shouldn't have to pore over a GLBT list to find them. And for the record, if you check the history, you'll see that the reason that article is so short is that someone decided to rip most of the content out of it a few months ago. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 04:01, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
The magic of the new combined list is that you can simply sort the column and all trans entries are grouped together.— TAnthonyTalk 04:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Lisa, I just pulled the removed transgender books from the history and added them to my worklist to cite and add here, thanks for the heads up. This list will never be "complete" but it seems as though trans characters are fewer and harder to find than others so I want to make an effort to include as many as I can.— TAnthonyTalk 04:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Is there an easy way to add to the list? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 13:21, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Merge list of gay characters

The content of List of gay characters in literature was split out from this list in 2012, but I can see no value in dual maintenance, so it would be better to merge that back here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:16, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The "sublists" (gay, lesbian, bi, transgender) are relatively small and somewhat redundant, with duplicate entries from here and a lot of the same novels with characters split out based on their individual sexuality across the lists. Merging back together and reformatting along the lines of the gay list seems to make the most sense.— TAnthonyTalk 14:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I've tagged List of bisexual characters in literature and List of lesbian characters in literature for merge discussion as well. — TAnthonyTalk 15:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
And my plan would be for this list to be reformatted like the gay list but with the "subgroups" (gay, lesbian, bi, transgender) sortable.— TAnthonyTalk 15:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

So I have reformatted this list as a sortable table, added citations and boldly merged the following lists into it:

Not surprisingly, most entries on those other lists were already here, reinforcing the argument above. This list is large but not unwieldy, and if it is ever split again based on size I would argue that it be done by year or by works A-Z rather than by "sexual denomination".— TAnthonyTalk 00:29, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Nico DiAngelo.

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I, personally think that Nico DiAngelo is more curious than flat out gay. He does like Percy, but shows no other evidence. I think that maybe he just thought he liked him and learned how he felt later on which made him upset that he can't understand his own feelings. Which I can relate to. Although I have said this, I do think that it is a possibility for him to truly like Percy. Princessthayet (talk) 01:49, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

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Sorting

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

How is this page going to be sorted? It looks as though it's being sorted by work title, however it's not stated anywhere on the page and the 1800s section doesn't appear to be sorted at all. Should the page continue on as sorting by work title or would it possibly be better if it's sorted by when the work initially came out so the page is somewhat of a timeline? VivaciousArcanist (talk) 22:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

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