Talk:Kalu Rinpoche

An observation regarding the June Campbell allegation

Accusing a high Tibetan lama of sexual abuse is a very serious issue. The fact that there is no evidence and that Rinpoche has now passed means that these allegations are going unchallenged. Since they could just as easily be true as untrue, I think that we should have more balance to the controversy section. It makes sense to me to reference the amazon.com (attempted) refutation. To say that it is the weakest piece of writing ever seen on wikipedia is certainly an exaggeration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.232.87 (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

June Campell's "info"

How can wikipedia publish this information concerning Kalu Rinpoche? At least some more warning is necessary. This information is not at all proven. In addition, June Campell add a lot of other criticisms toward Tibet and Buddhism. All together, it appears as if the underlying goal of June Campell's book and interviews is to create lack of confidence towards Tibet and Tibetans. Therefore, I strongly suggest to withdraw this unproven information from the article and may be just leave it in this discussion page. PS I feel sorry someone could have developped bad feelings toward a great master like Kalu Rinpoche ... --Rédacteur Tibet 18:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Added info

Travelled to Japan, met with Shoko Asahara, lectured to his disciples. June Campbell's book published as "Traveller in Space" and later as "Gender, Identity and Tibetan Buddhism". In the context of an academic study, she describes a three year sexual relationship with him which she experienced as abusive.

Restoring

I found a very empty page describing only the allegations of sexual assault.

Kalu Rimpoche was, along with very few others like HH Dilgo Khyentse Rimpoche, one of the last "big" masters from tibet. Kalu was held in the highest regard by all of the more important rimpoches. Even if the sexual allegations are true, the Ven. Kalu Rimpoche has made a giant contribution to the dharma. Therefore, a more detailed bio should be here instead of what i found previously.

Why is June Campell's account missing now?

Someone writes" "Even if the sexual allegations are true ..." Of course I don't know definitively whether they are true, but consider this dialogue with Lama Surya Das (from http://www.dzogchen.org/teachings/talks/love.html):

"I have a question about consort practice. I read an article recently by June Campbell, who was a translator for Kalu Rinpoche. She wrote that she had a sexual relationship with Kalu Rinpoche at the time he was ostensibly a celibate monk. And she was sworn to secrecy. She was told by attendants not to reveal the relationship. If she did, there would be dire karmic consequences. So my question is, can consort practice be sexual abuse?

Whether it was abusive or not I don't know, but he was never ordained as a monk. People seem to ignore this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.214 (talk) 09:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

If it's abusive, then it's not consort practice; it's just sex. It's not practice and it's not a consort.

Could you comment on this particular case?

What do you care about that, actually? What's your real question?

I have a lot of trouble with the kind of faith and devotion that is required for Guru Yoga. And it seems like incidents like this are not isolated.

Right. There are plenty. Too many. So why do we put people on pedestals and hand ourselves over so easily? That's our responsibility."

If *he* is sure that "there are plenty", its hardly reasonable to speak from a stance of 'well who knows whether they are true', as if June Campbell's testimony was of little account. And surely, from the perspective of plumbing the *riches* of Tibetan Buddhist practice, we are all much better off exploring openly and easily that which we find distressing. *Relaxing*, allowing, ... letting the painfull, challenging, contradictory be present.

I found her Tricycle interview (http://www.anandainfo.com/tantric_robes.html) thoughtful and considered ...

Greg Walkerden, 11 Sept 06.

It is absolutely ridiculous to have an article full of enthronments etc with no mention of June Campbell's account. Who keeps removing this relevant material? How can we have any respect for this man's legacy if his followers feel it is necessary to censor his life story in this way? Who is interested in this sychphantic stuff and what does it tell us about Kalu Rinpoche?

Amazon.com Review

Yes, June Campbell's account needs to be included. But the Amazon.com attempted refutation is the weakest piece of writing I've seen on Wikipedia.

Surely there is some more authoritative and substantive objection to June Campbell's claims which could be referred to? June Campbell has said that the sex began when rinpoche was less than 70. In any case, I would suggest deleting the sentences relating to the Amazon.com review. Johnfos 02:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess there is no discussion on this point and have now deleted reference to the Amazon review. Johnfos 07:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

History Section

This section reads like an advertisement and needs to be revised. In one paragraph alone the word "foremost" is used four times. We have reference to foremost masters, foremost teachers, foremost disciples and foremost center. Citations are also needed to support factual claims made. Johnfos 22:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It could be a little more polished, but I don't agree that it reads like an advertisement. I am not a student of his or in his lineage directly, but he really did have credentials that are incredible (within the world of Tibetan Buddhism).Sylvain1972 15:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I've tried to take your thoughts into account when editing the history section. The main piece of text removed related to KRs gurus and not to himself. There is still a need for citations to support what has been said. Johnfos 22:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I've reorganized the history portion into sections to make it a little more readable, and added some citations. However, I re-added the gurus section - in Tibetan Buddhism this information is of the utmost importance.Sylvain1972 15:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

So long as the tradition is sourced I don't see how there can be an objection to citing the gurus.Rinpoche (talk) 01:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Something new in here?

• Dorjechang Kalu Rinpoche

Austerlitz -- 88.72.7.43 (talk) 08:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism by Joseph Goldstein

Austerlitz -- 88.72.20.158 (talk) 10:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Time to remove the citations needed template at head of article?

I've added a web citation for the reincarnation stuff.

It seems to me that this article is now adequately sourced and we can remove the citations needed template at the top of the article. I don't know how to request this. Perhaps some reader can put the process in motion.

These article about gurus are troublesome of course because they naturally tend to be written by disciples (who after all are generally the only ones who regard their subject matter as especially notable in the first place) from a decidely non-neutral point of view. However Kalu Rinpoche is plainly a notable figure in the emergence of Western buddhism and I think this article is now adequately sourced and neutral its in point of view (for the kind of thing that I definitely think shouldn't be in Wikipedia you might care to look at the article on Lama Yeshe Losal which I edited a few days ago).

Of course the section on June Campbell should stand. I have to say the individual, and others who commented in a similar way, who begins this talk page with the remark "Accusing a high Tibetan lama of sexual abuse is a very serious issue ..." displays a lamentable misunderstanding of what an encyclopedia is about.

There are a number of sources out there now discussing abusive relationships in Western Buddhist organizations (notably at Samye Ling and San Francisco Zen Center). At present there is a Catholic sex abuse cases page and I propose to create a stub for Buddhist sex abuse cases. I'm preparing a draft om my user page User:Rinpoche/Latest. You're welcome to add comments and observations on the discussion page. I don't expect to spend more than two or three days on the draft before putting it up. Rinpoche (talk) 01:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche be merged into Kalu Rinpoche; the former seems to be a less well-written duplicate not following standard naming conventions. It is, in fact, so short that it may be less of a merge and more of a delete-and-redirect, but I'd prefer others to weigh in on that before taking such WP:BOLD action myself. --KGF0 ( T | C ) 08:15, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, same person. --Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 10:45, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes same person. No need for any discussion about this as it is a totally non-controversial merger. No disrespect at all to the subject, but extra titles like "Kyabje" (lord of refuge) should be avoided in Wikipedia articles on Tibetan lamas - it is not part of anyone's name and just being super, super honorific to use that term (especially when we already have Rinpoche). Incidentally Kalu Rinpoche's original name was Rangjung Kunkhyab and he often signed his works with only that name. Chris Fynn (talk) 21:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Since this has been sitting here for a year and a half with full agreement on the action, I performed it. Dharmalion76 (talk) 22:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

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