Talk:It ain't over till the fat lady sings

I have a Theory which i cant back up. But the air sirens in ww2 could in some families been called fat lady and then this saying would be spot on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.193.2.63 (talk) 20:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Origination

This term was indeed coined by sportscaster Dan Cook. {{helpme}} I wish to insert part of an internet article with additional information on the subject, but your information on additions state that is not permissible.

I was sure I had seen that "saying" in "Catcher in the Rye" when I read it in the early fifties.

Found substantiation of its use by Salinger on a page entitled "Mr. Gross' Home Page" at a site named Webdreamer

I hope I am not violating a rule by clicking 'Save page' I am entirely new to participating.

 Thank you

Franmorris 05:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)=franmorris

It's copyright if you just save copy and paste. If you can reword it, so this not a generic copy, then its allowed. Have a read of WP:Copyright Brian | (Talk) 06:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure it the article is factually correct; at least, this page: [1] claims Cook didn't actually invent the phrase.

It should be noted that the above dissenting opinion is not valid. They refer to a another source, a book of quotatiosn where the phrase is 'the opera isn't over...'. While a minor difference and quite likely a contributer of the common phrase starting with 'it ain't over...', the phrase we hear almost too often did seem to start with Cook. Besides, the article mentions similar phrases that may have led to it all, from 'it ain't over til it's over' and references to fat women singing in church.

I don't think the saying is even American in origin. I know for a fact that as far back as the 1950's there was a very similar saying in the former Yugoslavia: "Opera nije gotova dok debela ne otpeva." In English that would be, "The opera is not over until the fat woman has finished singing." Which is actually more concise and meaningful than the American version of the metaphor, although I suspect it may have originated elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trac63 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Dan Cook and the Time Machine?

If the phrase occurs before 1978, then it isn't a possible alternate origin. Unless Dan Cook has a time machine, his attribution is incorrect. Professor Ninja 12:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

which opera?

The article claims that the originator of the quote was voicing a stereotypical view of opera. Actually there are two operas that fit the bill: TRISTAN AND ISOLDE and TWILIGHT OF THE GODS, both by Wagner. Both are very long operas in which the soprano appears at the end, after a long absense from the stage, to sing a powerful closing aria (LIEBESTOD in the first case, BRUNNHILDE'S IMMOLATION SCENE in the second). One version of the story is that a bored little boy in the audience kept asking whether the opera was over, to which his father replied, accurately but not very elegantly, "it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings." CharlesTheBold 03:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the Twilight of The Gods fits better as it is part of an even longer cycle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.84.57 (talk) 15:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Examples?

Deleted. Who cares? That is, would anyone wanting to know about the saying give two hoots about its use in the Simpsons or Independence Day? What relevance do these have to the actual saying, other than fluffiest trivia? - David Gerard 09:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• I think a short list should be restored (probably as "References in Popular Culture"). A short list of uses in popular culture justifies that it really IS a saying, and one that's important enough to know about (to understand popular culture). I haven't done so, b/c I'm curious about what others think. Dwheeler 15:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Another explanation I have heard before

I heard that "the fat lady" is actually referring to the whistle, meaning that the game isn't over until the whistle is blown signifying the end of the game. The quote on this article, "The opera ain't over until the fat lady sings" seems to show that this is actually not the case. I can understand how the whistle interpretation may have been drawn from incorrect knowledge of the saying's origins, but it may be worth further discussion. Has anyone else heard this before? Syckls 15:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

No, and it's pretty far-fetched. The saying refers to opera, specifically the Brunhilde stereotype complete with horned helmet, breastplate and spear. Also, Earl Weaver used to use that expression, and there are no whistles used in baseball. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

And Another Explanation

Here is a claim with permission that says it is from the Texas Legislature or Texas Republic legislature. The phrase was "it ain't over until the fat lady sings" - the legislature would close with an aria sung by an opera diva, and the saying was used whenever a motion was defeated, meaning "I can bring it up again until the end of the session" - See http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/archives/002189.html which gives permission for use with credit or check it out independently.

In any case I am pretty sure that phrase was around BEFORE Yogi Berra and we all thought Berra was funny because he was paraphrasing the saying when he said "it ain't over until it's over." Mewnews (talk) 02:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move (old)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Here are some reasons why I believe "till" should be used in the page name:

• Google: ~12,000 hits for the phrase with "'til" [2] and ~30,000 for the phrase with "till" [3] (~11,000 hits with "until" [4])
• Grammar: According to "The Columbia Guide to Standard American English" (1993), " 'Til is a variant spelling used by those who think (incorrectly) that till is a clipped form. At best it looks old-fashioned and self-conscious. Use till instead." [5] Ulmanor 18:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose it could also be It’s not over until the fat lady sings. The article is fine as it is. --evrik ^(talk) 20:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC) I've changed my mind and do not oppose. --evrik ^(talk) 07:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose the apostrophe shows that until is shortened and there is no reason to add a second L. Reginmund 05:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

In my opinion, the name of article is less important so long as the article itself states that variations of this phrase exist, and briefly lists examples of variations. Just a suggestion. Gracenotes^T § 20:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It seems a little silly to be debating whether "'til" is grammatically correct when the phrase contains "ain't". Dekimasuよ! 05:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Eh. On behalf of 131.252.230.164 (talk · contribs), I'm wondering what would be the best title for the article. In newspaper sports articles, the two are used about as often (with "till" used more frequently than "'til"). Regardless of the title, I am altering the article to mention both, if no one minds. Gracenotes^T § 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 14:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move this page, per the discussion below. I'd also note that most of the pages below are not strictly against the use of "'til" - one advises against it in original writing, but another advises against it only after noting that it dates from the 18th century (which would seem to mean it's fairly well-established - no one is arguing that "until" isn't a word because it originated after "till"), one is more concerned with showing that "till" is acceptable, and one actually notes that "'til" is used for "informal set phrases", of which this is certainly one. All in all, this doesn't seem to be a difference that we need to be greatly concerned about. These mostly regard our own writing, whereas the title of the article describes the way the phrase is commonly used. Dekimasuよ! 07:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

---

Using "'til" instead of "till" is blatantly incorrect English, and we should move the article to reflect that fact. "Till" is not a contraction of "until", it is a proper word by itself and it is in fact far older than "until". Google "'til till" and look at some of the results from the experts, they all say the same thing (e.g. [6] [7] [8] [9]). Since there was a previous discussion of a move over this issue that failed, I thought I should bring it up again, even though this is pretty much an open and shut case --Oskar 00:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yet you don't have a problem with "ain't"? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• Does anyone have the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs? Whatever spelling that uses is the spelling I'd support. Masaruemoto 03:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

You're going to apply the Oxford Dictionary to something that was said out loud and someone wrote down? I don't know about this one, but the parallel saying by Yogi Berra is written this way on p.121 of Berra's own book, The Yogi Book, L.T.D. Enterprises, 1998: "It ain't over 'til it's over." Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• Since this article about the proverb itself, rather than Dan Cook's original line (which was slightly different), the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs will be the most reliable source for the correct spelling of the proverb. Masaruemoto 07:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Applying the Oxford Dictionary to this line is about as pretentious as calling it a "proverb". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• Then I'll assume you don't actually know what a proverb is. I don't know why I suggested the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs as verification for this article, I must have been thinking this was an encyclopedia. I suspect I'm wasting my time trying to help settle something so trivial, so I'll let everyone else sort it out. Masaruemoto 05:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Listen, all the English guides says that "'til" is incorrect and "till" should be used, but if that isn't enough you can google the term and almost exclusively the "till"-usage comes up (e.g [10] [11]). If that isn't enough, you can search bartleby, and find Dan Cook's original quotation, and yes, it uses "till". Can anyone give me any good reason why it should be "'til"? I mean, come on, the evidence is all pointing in one direction! --Oskar 21:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter. Just have it your way, and have a redirect from the other way. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

And by the way, "till" is a synonym of "until". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• I support the move to the correct usage. --evrik ^(talk) 14:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • It's "different" usage. "Correct" usage is pretentious. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Whatever ... I was convinced after the frist time we went through this ... --evrik ^(talk) 15:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "Ain't" is also incorrect usage. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings is intentionally incorrect English. I think we have to decide whether it is accurately punctuated. I assume that 'til is a contraction of 'until', so I guess it's OK. It shouldn't be moved. -- Kleinzach 02:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Support the move; based on the reliable sources, and the fact that this is the most commonly used spelling. The whole "correct English" thing is irrelevant here, the name of an article should be based on the name that most people use and the one used by reliable sources, which is the proposed name. Masaruemoto 05:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The references in the article itself do not support the claim for "till" being either the one "most people use" or "used by reliable sources". The references include "till", "until" and the apparently much-despiséd "'til". The original attribution is said to be "The opera ain't over until the fat lady sings". If that is indeed the original saying, then that's what the article should be titled, and the other variants should redirect to it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I just want to make something clear: the word that is pronounced like "til" is not a shorter version of "until", it is a completetely different word, spelled "till". True, they are synonyms, but they are not variants of the same word. So that means that it's either "till" or "until", either one would be correct. That said, the saying doesn't go "It ain't over until the fat lady sings", it goes "It ain't over till the fat lady sings", so that's what the article should be called. If you want to go with the real, original quote, it's "The opera ain't over till the fat lady sings" according to the Bartleby link I provided earlier, but to have an article on that would be absurd since no one ever says that. We all know quote uses "till" (have we learned nothing from Independance Day?), so let's just go with that. --Oskar 19:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Another thing by the way: the article says that the original quote was "The opera ain't over until the fat lady sings", but the source for that ([12]) uses the Straight Dope as its source ([13]), and misquotes it, Cecil Adams actually says it's "till". I'll be fixing that right away. --Oskar 19:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
        • If the original quote can absolutely be verified, that's the one to go with. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
          • If the original words were spoken, not written, how exactly can they be verified? -- Kleinzach 23:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
            • Unless they were recorded, they can't be; thus they can't say with certainty whether it was "till" or "until", at the very least. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

the show's not over 'til the fat lady sings

My father, who was a geordie, born in newcastle in 1909, told me when I was a young boy, around 1955, that the phrase "the show's not over 'til the fat lady sings, referred to the pea in a referee's whistle. Meaning the match wasn't over til the referee blew his whistle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.244.182.222 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a good fable. Tell us another one. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Kate Smith

Some people have held that the "fat lady" is a reference to singer Kate Smith, a popular and amazingly talented American singer of the 1940's and 50's, who was most noted for her stirring rendition of Irving Berlin's "God Bless America". It appears from the above that the reference predates Ms. Smith's era by many years, and most likely originated from the European operatic genre as mentioned above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.13.28.70 (talk) 16:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Misspelling in title

Why has this page still not been moved to "It ain't over till [...]"? Irrespective of whether the quotation uses until or till, there is no such word as 'til; at best it is non-standard and makes us look ignorant. — Paul G (talk) 15:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've corrected all 'tils in the article to tills, so now the article title is inconsistent with the contents. — Paul G (talk) 17:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Carnival

There's a suggestion that the phrase was originally 'the carnival...' - but since it's citing no evidence I'm going to remove it. Feel free to reinstate if you have convincing evidence. Cooke (talk) 11:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Visual allusion

Eric Idle's "Bright side of life" routine at the 2012 Olympics closing ceremony had a pseudo-Wagnerian lady standing beside him at the end of his routine... AnonMoos (talk) 00:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Origin Morecambe & Wiseshow

I'm sure I heard this line in the British comedyseries 'The Morecambe and Wise show', where indeed a big lady sang at the end of the show, and Morecambe said: 'It ain't over till the fat lady sings'. That could be the origin, because it was in the seventies. Later in the Britsh comedyshows of Harry Enfield there was a 'fat bloke' singing at the end of the show, and I thought that was a funny variation / sort of respect for the old Morecambe and Wise show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.217.27 (talk) 13:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Don Meredith claim

The claim attributing the phrase to Don Meredith is vague and has no citation. Its inclusion has the effect of making the section self-contradictory. Unless a citation can be found, it seems like it should be deleted. Dansan99 (talk) 06:49, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Charles Dickens claim

The claim quoting a passage from "A House to Let" by Charles Dickens, et al. is factually incorrect and has no citation. The words "the fat lady of Norfolk had sung her final song" do not in fact appear in "A House to Let," as can be easily verified by perusing the full text of the short story at Project Gutenberg here. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2324/2324-h/2324-h.htm Like the Don Meredith claim, this claim should be deleted as it appears to be false original research. AlanSiegrist (talk) 23:42, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

That appears to be vandalism, introduced in this July, 2019 edit. That is that user's only edit. I have removed it and warned the user, although I doubt they'll be back nearly a year later to see the warning. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 19:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Earlier usage: 3 January 1976

The article currently states that the first recorded use appeared in the Dallas Morning News on 10 March 1976. However, there's a very similar phrase printed in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram on 3 January 1976 ("Courthouse candor prizes awarded", page 7-A [14][15]):

Commissioner Jerry Mebus, too, took an honorable mention for the quotes he dreamed up and never used.

Mebus has been waiting almost a full year for the right situation so he can drop one of his best. "Don't leave the church until the fat lady sings."

The 10 March usage that is currently cited in the article has at least one additional source to support that claim. Is it appropriate to add this 3 January citation? —Bkell (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2020 (UTC)