Talk:Hobey Baker

Where did he die?

The main text says 'Toul' while the fact box says 'Tours', apparently different parts of France. The link at the bottom to the online biography at the Legends of Hockey website lists 'Toul', but I'm reluctant to change the fact box (I'm not sure 'fact box' a proper term?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.181.153.10 (talk) 11:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The correct location is Toul. That was the aerodrome for the Air Service, Second Army, to which the 141st Aero Squadron was assigned. My grandfather was stationed there with the 278th Aero Squadron (Observation) at the time and witnessed Capt Baker's crash.76.125.60.137 (talk) 01:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Toul was the main aerodrome of the sector in which new units were "broken in" at the front, which the 141st AS and the other units of the 2nd Army's Air Service were. (The 141st flew its first patrol on October 23, 1918). Tours was in central France and the headquarters of the Air Service, A.E.F.--Reedmalloy (talk) 16:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Contributions to Skating

I have added a paragraph on Baker's contributions to skating which were considerable. I have not fully sourced these but they should be easily provable by anyone so inclined. In regards to my statement that Baker invented the wedge stop there may be some doubters, however, if you read old manuals of figure skating you will find absolutely no mention of the wedge stop (until Baker's time). For example, the book "Lessons in Skating" by George Meagher (1900) it reads as follows (describing the parallel stop):

"Remember that if you are going at a rate of speed, and wish to stop, there is only one correct way of doing so, i.e., turn both feet perfectly sideways, slant the body in the direction which you started; this will throw you on the inside edge of one skate, and the outside edge of the other."

Meagher was figure skating champion of the world and a renowned hockey expert. Baker's use of the wedge stop was simply flabbergasting to his contemporaries because not only was it completely novel, but players who tried to imitate him found that they could not do it because it requires incredible ankle strength and technique to use wedge stops at high speeds. John Chamberlain (talk) 03:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

not escadrill

membership in the 103rd does not count as escadrill. his name does not appear on either escadrill list. Brian in denver (talk) 20:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

FAC?

I discovered this article by chance, and it seems very complete in terms of content/referencing. I think if a copyedit were to be done, it would be a viable candidate at FAC. Any thoughts? Maxim_(talk) 20:47, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm always in support of ice hockey related articles becoming recognized content, so I would like to see that. I know this article was part of User:Kaiser matias' goal of getting the 1945 Hockey Hall of Fame class to GA+ status, which is probably why it's in such good shape, but I think he might be on a wiki break as I have not seen a lot of edits from him lately.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 01:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I've been working on it on and off the last while with that goal in mind. Could probably fill out the remaining sections tomorrow even and have it ready to go for FAC by then. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Took longer than I wanted, but finished it and its up at GA for a quick review before heading to FA. Honestly didn't think it would be this long when I started. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:51, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hobey Baker/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

It may take me a day or two to completely review this, but it is an interesting article. There were some minor and simple prose issues which I have copy-edited as I've read. If I have made a mess of anything, feel free to revert.

Lead:

• "Regarded as the first American star in ice hockey..." This needs to be more precise: regarded by who? Critics? Journalists? Team-mates?

Clarified

Early life:

• " Alfred, known as Bobby to his friends, had played halfback while a student at Princeton University in the 1880s, the same school his father had attended. One of his ancestors was Francis Rawle, a Quaker who immigrated to Philadelphia in 1688 and became one of the most well known and respected members of the city." In this passage, it is very difficult to tell who each piece of information is about; the "he" and "his" make it tricky. Also, the information about Alfred is not covered in the cited reference.

Fixed

• (Old text): "At the age of eleven Alfred and Mary's marriage was starting to end so Baker and his brother Thornton, aged twelve, were sent to St. Paul's School in Concord, New Hampshire" Ref 3 supports the fact of the pair going to St Paul's, but not the reason for it. It states that they were "abandoned to school" but this may be stretching it a little. I've tried to clear this up myself, but please check.

All good

• "Malcolm Gordon, who has been called the father of American hockey..." Called by who?

Clarified

• "Baker was known to be an exceptionally fast skater..." Known by who?

Clarified

• "...as a member of one of the school's societies, the Bogi society." I'm not sure I appreciate the importance or notability of this. If it is important, please specify why.

Not really, so removed

Princeton:

• (Old text, since altered slightly): "Recognized on the field as one of the few players who didn't wear a helmet": Does this mean he was widely known for not wearing a helmet or that it was easy to spot which player he was because he was helmetless?

Fixed

• MOSNUM: some numbers are written as words when all numbers above 10 should be numerals.

Think I got them all, if not let me konw

• I think the section on the Princeton-Harvard game is too long: many of the details do not concern Baker and could be cut.

I think this should be left in as it is the only complete description of a game that Baker took part in, and therefore provides a good explanation of what type of player he was.

More to follow in the next few days, but looking good overall. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Post-university

• "The summer after graduation Baker toured Europe as a correspondent for The New York Times.": This begs the question: doing what? Reporting something in particular? Writing? Why?

Clarified

• "Baker used his connections..." Could this be explained more? What was the connection with the insurance firm?

Fixed

• "In order to leave the arena quickly after hockey games, without having to deal with the public, Pyne often loaned Baker his valet." These two facts do not seem related. How did the valet help him leave quickly?

Fixed

• "the constant focus against him on the ice had taken a toll on him": Does this mean opponents targeted him physically, or does it mean he was the centre of attention all the time?

Fixed

World War One

• "He went to the island late in the afternoon after he finished work for the day." Presumably he did this every day; at the moment, it reads as if it was a one-off.

Fixed

• "At the time it was the largest military aircraft formation.": This specific event, or the organisation Baker belonged to?

Clarified

• "Baker was discouraged to be sent to a school in England and then back to France to teach Americans what he had learned": Not quite sure I understand this. Why was he sent to England and then back to France? What was he doing? One reading of this would be that he went to teach Americans French! And where were the Americans he taught? England or France?

Tried to clarify, should be good now

Further explanation: The bulk of the Air Service, AEF trained in England before it went France. 25% of the Air Service AEF was based in England training units for combat by request of the British, who were short on manpower, particularly trained mechanics. More than a thousand American flying cadets were incrementally sent to France after completing ground school (most of them honor graduates) to speed up the training of U.S. pilots, but just the opposite occurred. French promises of training 500 per month were hollow and the incoming cadets piled up in camps. Most were used as laborers while awaiting training, and were known as the "million dollar guard." Some pilots of the small number of squadrons already in France, including Baker's, were sent back to England for specialized training, then returned to France to instruct other Americans in primary schools opened at Tours and Issoudun to reduce the backlog. Baker, I suspect, was one of those selected to be sent to England.--Reedmalloy (talk) 17:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Baker was sent away from the front and given charge of the 141st Squadron, composed of 26 pilots and 180 enlisted men stationed behind the front line": I'm assuming their job was refuelling, but you have hidden this in the link.

It was a combat squadron, and later changed to refuelling. I've tried to make clear what his job was.

Further explanation: The 141st AS was a pursuit squadron, first, last and always. It arrived in France in August 1918 without pilots and was one of the last to be sent to the front, and even then was the only pursuit squadron of the four assigned to the incipient Air Service Second Army to have airplanes, which it inherited from another aero squadron at the aerodrome it was sent to. The 141st went to the front October 21st, flew its first patrol on October 23, and was assigned to the new 4th Pursuit Group (which Biddle commanded) on October 25. It remained the only pursuit squadron of the Second Army to see combat, ultimately involved in 13 combats and downing two German aircraft (the first by Baker, the second shared by five pilots including Baker, which in 1918 followed the French practice of crediting each pilot involved with a "kill"). The 141st was disbanded after WWI and its lineage was not linked to the 141st FS (created and assigned to the NJANG after WWII) until 1988 when the two units consolidated, thus did not take on the air refueling mission until 1991 (the first aerial refueling in history did not take place until 1923). --Reedmalloy (talk) 17:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Death

• "which was made difficult by the lack of altitude required to glide the plane into the hanger.": Does this mean not much altitude was needed to get into the hanger, or he did not have the required height?

Clarified

• "with a fellow Princeton": Is this right, or is there a word equivalent to "Princetonian"?

Not sure, so just used "fellow Princeton graduate"

General comments:

• Most of the copy-edits were to remove excess words; particularly over-use of "would" and use of contractions.
• What is known of his playing style in the various sports? I think it needs a section to cover this, maybe saying why he was so good. Some detail is given throughout, but it would be useful to have it in one section in summary.

Finding details on this was hard to do, and as much as I agree, it seems that the available content would have not been sufficent for a whoe section.

• Images seem OK, but is there any evidence that they were 'published before 1923? I know several image experts would seize on this at FAC!

They were mostly used in newspapers from the era, so they should be allright.

• Spot checks on references revealed no problems except one minor nit-pick above. Sourcing looks good. Referencing excellent.
• No Dablinks. Fitzpatrick link shows as a redirect.

I checked it out, and its fine.

I'll put this on hold for a week, but I can extend if needed. I don't see too many problems to passing, it's all fairly minor. However, I would suggest if this article is to go for FAC as the talk page suggests, it needs a thorough copy-edit as there are still some prose issues, albeit not enough to stop it passing GA. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Everything has been addressed. Any other concerns just let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

All good, passing now. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Copyediting notes

• "Most of his former classmates recalled their time at St. Paul's with Baker solely by his athletic achievements.", "By the time Baker left St. Paul's his sporting achievements had helped make him one of the school's most popular students": I'd lose these two sentences. My concern is that these two sentences make him look less rather than more impressive ... if what he's known for is being popular in high school, then he must not have been very well known.
• Except for that, going through my list at the FAC, it looks like you covered everything down to "Running through the whole article quickly". - Dank (push to talk) 14:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

--Another Believer _(Talk) 20:25, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Aviation claim(s)

The text asserts that Baker "led a squadron of twelve aircraft, the most to have ever flown in military formation" to Princeton. This may be a considerable romanticism by Salvini, the source. In a work by historian Juliette Hennessy of the Air Force's Historical Division in 1958, The United States Army Air Arm, April 1861 to April 1917, page 179, it indicates that the flight consisted of ten aircraft, not twelve, that only seven were flown by military (National Guard) aviators (the other three were flown by a civilian instructor and civilian students training at the aviation school on Governor's Island), that they were led by Captain Raynal Bolling, and that Baker flew as an observer in a Curtiss JN4 flown by another civilian, Cord Meyer. Meyer was a Yalie also commissioned in 1917 and flew again with Baker in the 103rd A.S. Because this is an FA, I am going to do more research before/if I edit this, but whoever originally sourced this might go back and check Salvini's source. I discovered this in sourcing Baker's date of commissioning, which was April 30, 1917 in the Signal Officer's Reserve Corps, with a rating of Reserve Military Aviator. (p. 246)--Reedmalloy (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I hate being a gadfly about this article, but the sources used appear to have been more interested in Baker the athlete than Baker the military officer. The text states his May 21 claim for a kill was denied, but Maurer and AFHRA credit it. The claim taken from a newspaper account of his being promoted to lieutenant in March 1918 is clearly at odds with the facts. He received his commission almost a year before, as noted above, and as a first lieutenant. He is said to have gone to France on August 23, but the history of the 26th Aero Squadron states that he was detailed in July 1918, along with most of the officers of the 1st R.A.S., to go to France to assist in setting up the urgently needed aviation school at Issoudun. Here is a summary of the 26th A.S. and Baker's service with it and the 141st A.S., taken from Gorrell's History of the Air Service of the AEF: (Major) Bolling, (Captain) James E. Miller, and (Captain) Phillip A. Carroll (whose school on Governors Island trained Baker) organized the 1st Reserve Aero Squadron in May 1917. 1st Lt. Hobart A. H. Baker was an original member. On July 14 he was one of ten officers of the 1st R.A.S. (including Quentin Roosevelt), commanded by Miller, ordered to France to accompany 49 flying cadets who were the first students to be trained under an agreement with France. In the meantime, the squadron's enlisted men continued training at Mineola, New York, and sailed for Halifax on the RMS Baltic on August 23, then in a convoy on Sept 5 for Liverpool, arriving Sept 15, then immediately on to France, arriving at Issoudun on September 21. There they were were re-designated as the 26th Aero Squadron. Two-thirds of the enlisted men of the 26th A.S. immediately began six weeks of training at French schools in Pau or Tours on repair and maintenance of Nieuport biplanes. When they returned, the aviators (including Baker) began flying training on Nieuports. At the end of 1917 nearly all the personnel of the 26th A.S. were transferred to other units. Baker and ten other pilots (all of whom became noted pursuit aviators) were described as "continued with their training." Baker joined the 103rd Aero Squadron on April 3, 1918, while it was still assigned to a French air group, and after it had begun combat operations. The 141st A.S. arrived in France after six months in England on August 16, 1918,were sent to the Air Service Concentration Barracks at Saint-Maixent on August 20, where 1st Lt. Baker took command. At the time it was without pilots or airplanes, but began to receive both when it reached Colombey-les-Belles on September 16.--Reedmalloy (talk) 08:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Infobox mess

Is there any particular reason why this article needs to have two infoboxes, the second of which repeats some of the information given in the first and also makes it appear that he won the Croix de Guerre with the Princeton Tigers? Bencherlite^Talk 10:37, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I would suggest just using {{Infobox person}} instead of multiple boxes like this. Course, I tried doing that on a similar article in the past and had another project rush in and basically take over the infobox. Resolute 04:10, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Good idea, I've done that. I've not included height/weight (as these aren't given in the article and so were unsourced) and I've not included the list of squadrons with which he served (but if someone thinks they should be added, go ahead). Bencherlite^Talk 10:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

HHOF Banner

Just a recommendation, but the Hockey Hall of Fame banner should be displayed at the top of the info bar, as seen in any other HHOF member. Tried myself but for some reason could't get the code to work — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spilia4 (talk • contribs) 07:24, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

While that would be ideal, Baker was notable in multiple fields, so his infobox is a more generic one that can accommodate this. That does, unfortunately, preclude the use of the HHOF banner, which is limited to the ice hockey infobox. Likewise, it eliminates the usage of any banners the college football project uses. A similar case would be Lionel Conacher. Thanks! Resolute 21:42, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

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