Talk:Henry Allingham/Archive 1

older entries

The article identifies Allingham as Britain's oldest soldier, but contains not mention of any British Army service. I had previously changed this to "oldest member of the armed forces", but that change seems to have been undone (possibly as part of the major reworking of the page). Should I make the change again or is there another word that should be used? Cjrother 02:07, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Make the change again if you want. I suppose technically he wasn't a soldier, it's just that in general 'soldier' is the word I see used on websites, etc. I think the general public uses 'soldier' for anyone who fought in a war. --Ben davison 14:55, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have changed the page to "oldest member of the armed forces" as Allingham joined the Royal Navy, and transferred to the RAF on its creation. He was a sailor and an airman, never a soldier. 88.105.128.47 01:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Commissioned?

I cannot find any evidence that Allingham was comissioned. In fact [[1]] states that ... They married shortly after leaving the RAF (Henry says that he preferred to get married than attend a commissioning board).. Accordingly, I have removed the Category:Royal Air Force officers tag. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, please quote it and replace the tag. 88.105.128.47 01:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Picture

Is it possible to use one of the pictures (of him) from the BBC Website for this, as long as you note that it was from there? Would add a little to the article and there are plenty of stories about him there. RHB 21:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed so, and preferrably one of him at age 110, which he hopefully will be in less than an hour's time. Extremely sexy 22:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Tone

WP is responding so slowly for me just now I've given up trying to edit myself, but... calling him "Henry", while affectionate, isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. He should simply be "Allingham" throughout. 86.132.139.154 04:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Even at age 18?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 06:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What difference does age make to it?--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 11:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe you actually asked that. What difference DOES age make? For one, age 18 is young enough to be a high-schooler. Respect is supposedly EARNED over time as we get older. This is, after all, an article about a 110-year-old man. From that perspective, age makes all the difference in the world. Had he died at 79 this article wouldn't be here.

But I take offense with the false pomp and dignity that now we can't call him "Henry". Ironically other Wikipedians run around, deleting the "Mr." titles as outdated.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 01:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You didn't seem to understand what I was getting at there, although I don't think I made myself too clear. What I meant was that I don't see why it would be a contradiction, or be inappropriate in tone, simply to refer to him as "Allingham" throughout the article, i.e. "Allingham was born in 1896. At age 18, Allingham joined the army. At age 100 Allingham received a message from the Queen for his 100th birthday". Of course age makes a difference to the subject matter of the article but I don't think it should mean we refer to him as "Henry" when younger and "Allingham" when older - there are few other articles which would use this somewhat clumsy wording (which would probably not agree too well with the current manual of style, either).-h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 15:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, surnames are generally used to refer to a person in biographical articles regardless of age once their full name has been stated already: for example, Britney Spears is referred to as just "Spears" from her childhood to the present, not "Britney".-h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 16:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/WarVeteranHenryCelebrates110thBirthday.htm

We see that it was the British press itself that inculcated the 'cult of Henry'.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 01:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the original poster - he should be called Allingham throughout the article (except where it may be necessary to distinguish him from other Allinghams). Most of us aren't on a first name basis with him. Cjrother 03:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

111th Birthday

Almost certain to reach 111? He is the only surviving veteran of the Battle of Jutland, the only surviving member of the founding members of the RAF and the oldest man of both the United Kingdom and Britsh Isles, so it would be nice to have him still around for a bit longer yet! :) YourPTR! 18:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree: hopefully. Extremely sexy 12:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Just over 2 months to go now. What I find most extraordinary, is that another man shares the exact same birthdate! I wonder if this is the first time that has happened, that 2 people over 110 share the same birthday? All the more remarkable, since very few men who reach 110 reach 111 (ok: so they are not there yet, but so far, so good), it is about the same odds as a 113 year old woman reaching 114. :)YourPTR! 18:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The record for two people sharing the same birthdate is 112 years 325 days (Camille Loiseau and Toyo Endo, both born Feb 13 1892). Camille made it to 114 years 180 days.R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

And there have also already been several others. Extremely sexy 15:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Happy Birthday! 111 is a magnificient achievement. :)YourPTR! 17:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed so: just try to imagine this. Extremely sexy 00:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Just came across this thread - you may be interested in the birthday problem, which explains why it's more probable than you might think that two people in a small group share the same birthday. LHMike (talk) 21:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture with Simon Hughes

I managed to get permission from MP Simon Hughes to use this image under a free licence which Wikipedia accepts. So I've uploaded it to Wiki commons and started using it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RichyBoy (talk • contribs) 22:18, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

6/6/1896-

This is the first time that two men of the exact same birthday reached the age of 111. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.237.89 (talk) 23:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Would love to see this become the second World War I veteran Good Article! Some concerns though:

1. The lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD. Specifically, it must cover every major point/heading made in the article. As one, but not the only, example, the lead doesn't really cover his World War I career, which is a very important part of the article! It also must not introduce any facts that are not mentioned in the body of the article. For example, the article doesn't mention that "He is the oldest ever surviving member of the British Armed Forces (overtaking George Frederick Ives on November 1, 2007)" Overall, the lead needs some work.

• I've extensively altered the lead, could somebody comment on what else is needed?

1. All one-two sentence paragraphs must either be expanded or merged with the surrounding paragraphs, as they cannot stand alone.
2. Some statements require citations:

   The second, third, fifth and sixth paragraphs of "World War I"

   "Allingham returned to the Home Establishment in February 1919 and was formally discharged to the RAF Reserve on April 16, 1919. He then joined Ford Motor Company, where he worked until his retirement." (World War I)

   The second and third paragraphs of "After World War II"

   "A couple of weeks later on, in May, he moved to St Dunstan's, a charity for blind ex-service personnel, at Ovingdean, near Brighton." (After World War II)

3. "He was one of only four British WWI veterans who attended the Cenotaph in London on 4 August 2004 to mark the ninetieth anniversary of Britain's entry into the First World War." (After World War II) Do we have a source for who the other three are? If so, it should be mentioned/wikilinked who they were
4. The "After World War II" section needs a bit of cleanup, as it reads a bit like WP:PROSELINE in its current state.
5. Refs #3 and #18 are the same and should be combined. Ref #19 18 is broken.
6. The third external link is dead. The first and eleventh external links are the same.

All references now archived on webcitation/webarchive and all citations combined were appropriate RichyBoy 00:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

To allow for these changes to be made, I am putting the article on hold for a period of up to seven days, after which it may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your hard work thus far. Cheers, CP 03:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• I should be able to do most of this myself - I was planning to get back to improving these articles.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-197326.html In case I don't though, this has some good extra info. http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1269255,00.html That's citable for events like working with ford

The cenotaph ceremony was: William Stone, Henry Allingham, Fred Lloyd, John Oborne

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/pictures_502812/WORLD-WAR-I-VETERANS-LAYING-WREATHS-AT-THE-CENOTAPH-FOR-THE-90TH-ANNIVERSARY-LONDON-BRITAIN---04-A.html RichyBoy (talk) 16:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• I've made quite a few changes - mostly making sure that all the links are in webcite/webarchive, re-written a chunk of the lead so that it complies much better with WP:LEAD but there is still work to do there. Also, I've moved supercentenarian stuff from the lead to the appropriate section, buffed up the awards section, added the 90th anniversary cenotaph stuff, added a number of extra links and a few minor twiddles as well. I'm not able to edit Wiki for a week or so now so somebody else needs to take up the mantle for a bit. RichyBoy 03:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Impressive, but unfortunately not enough for a GA pass. The hold has expired on this article so I'll give the call for about a day or so: does anyone else plan on working on the above points (as in, with the next few days)? If so, I'll extend the hold. If not, I will have to fail the article at this time. Cheers, CP 16:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It appears that the concerns have not be adaquately addressed within the span of the hold, therefore I will be failing the article at this time. If you believe this review to be in error, you may to take it to good article reassessment. Thank you for your hard work thus far. Cheers, CP

Oldest ever Englishman?

Is Henry Allingham now the official longest-lived English man ever? And if so, is this worth noting somewhere? He has lived longer than John Mosely Turner, though he still has some way to go to beat Welshman John Evans and become the longest-lived UK man. Rrsmac (talk) 00:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you're right. Extremely sexy (talk) 16:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Should we put this in the article somewhere? I think this is a major achievement. Rrsmac (talk) 23:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we should. Extremely sexy (talk) 11:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Place of birth

The current wp-article says he was born in Clapham, County of London. This [2] article claims he was born in Clapton, County of London. Calle Widmann (talk) 07:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

His birth was registered under the Hackney district, which covered Clapton, but not Clapham. SiameseTurtle (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Birthday

There are about 130 Google results mentioning his 112th birthday. You think some of them should be put in the article? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 23:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

third oldest living man, but can't tell how many WWI older veterans there might be?

I read the following sentence in the longevity section: On 8 February 2007, with the death of 110-year-old Antonio Pierro, he became the oldest known living veteran of World War I as well as the third-oldest living man in the world. I dont feel at my best right now, but surely if he is the third oldest man in the world, then there are only two possible people who could be older WWI veterans, and it ought to be a simple matter to determine whether or not they were? Or should the qualifier 'known' apply both to his status as WWI veteran and also as third oldest man? just a wording quirk which struck me reading through, readers shouldn't have to do logic exercises. Sandpiper (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

He is the joint-second oldest man in the world, and the oldest living WWI veteran SiameseTurtle (talk) 19:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

HMS Kingfisher

Presently the article links 'HMS Kingfisher' to a ship which its article says had been renamed HMS cruzier in 1916. It also sounds a most unlikely ship to have been present. I think HMS Engadine (1911) was present, and is credited as launching the first plane to take part in a sea battle, or some such. The disambiguation page suggests there might have been no HMS Kingfisher in 1916, or we have a ship missing. A brief look on the internet shows others confused on this point. People are suggesting HMT Kingfisher, although again whether T stands for Tug or Trawler or something else is again mysterious. Such ships were miscellaneous requisitioned ships put to other purposes, which could fit for one carrying a plane. See eg this RAF article [3] Sandpiper (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

A longer search on the internet provides this link to FLIGHT magazine archive: [4] which confirms that HMS Kingfisher was an armed steam trawler. The published source for this is given in the article as 'The Story of a North Sea Air Station' by C. F. Snowden Gamble (page 126). I haven't edited the main page as I'm only a noob. MinorProphet (talk) 20:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Henry Allingham joins the scouts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/7735936.stm

Perhaps someone could work it in to the article? SiameseTurtle (talk) 17:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

 Done; also added it to the news at Portal:Scouting and to List of Scouts. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Allingham becomes a chartered engineer

http://www.bdpost.co.uk/content/barkinganddagenham/post/news/story.aspx?brand=BDPOnline&category=news&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newsbdp&itemid=WeED05%20Jan%202009%2013%3A51%3A10%3A967

It's good to see he's keeping in the limelight. Maybe that's what keeps him going. SiameseTurtle (talk) 18:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The intro is a little TL;DR

A lot of the records, longetivity etc. held by Allingham is repeated in the later longetivity section. The intro is too long. It should be condensed and summarised, the first paragraph I mean. Not every record he holds is important enough individually to go in the lead section.--Wittlewott (talk) 14:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It's fine like this imo. Paulus Gun (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Marriage Length

Just a small pickie thing - it says he was married in 1960, and that it lasted 51 years... but that means they would still be married? Can someone correct it, as I guess it must be 41 years or 1950? --Nunners 08:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nunners (talk • contribs)

It actually says they moved to Eastbourne in 1960, but I've added that they married in 1918. Dorothy died in 1970 (seemingly short of their 52nd anniversary). SiameseTurtle (talk) 08:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Frail Health

Noticing the pictures in 2002 - 2006 He was in considerbly good health. He released a book in late 2008 which must make him the oldest author. On the 90th anniversery 11-11-08 he seemed somewhat more fragile. In March 2009 when France gave him another award he could hardly old his head up. One month until he turns 113. Hope he makes it. I have an idea his public appearances will end by july. He is an amazing person though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.114.40.35 (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, Kentuckil, you were doing okay until that last sentence. People have been "having ideas" like that for years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.244.108.78 (talk) 07:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)