Talk:Guild of Saint Luke

Antwerp founding

The dates in para 2 contradict the para 1 1453 founding don't they? Johnbod 01:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

And was Antwerp really one of the oldest? Even the London one was founded in the 13th C. Johnbod 04:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It got caught in one of those, two different sources, one mentioning earliest specific records and another referencing first mention at all. I deleted again what I had re-added, just to smooth that question over until it can be clarified elegantly. I'm lacking any mention of London's guild in my literature, so I don't know anything except what's been added. Paris had something, I think (I read a little about the rise of the academy there), and I haven't really discussed "Confraternities of St Luke" other than a mention in Italy. I wanted to distinguish between professional and fraternal motives, but there's still room to grow here. --Stomme 07:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone gets there before me—likely as it won't be immediate—I should probably add something about the differences in the Low Countries between artisan painters (which seems to include the Painter-Stainers Company) and the picture painters and other artists represented by the St Luke Guild. The situation varied in different cities, but it's often discussed (usually in the context of the philosophical standing of the mechanical and liberal arts). Was the London guild dedicated to St Luke, or was it just a professional guild for painters (what the art literature calls "house painters"). I would be very curious to know if St Luke is a patron. If not, it would be something different. I also need to clarify when Rome got a Guild of St. Luke, or if they did. I see it in a number of articles call it such, but I suspect it might have been something different. It will be a month or so before I have access to my Italian literature. --Stomme 08:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

See the link & web-site for London. It included both artists and house-painters, but so for example did Haarlem (see link to Judith Leyster). I'm not sure the distinction between artists & artisan's guilds holds up, at least in the medieval period. Nor a fraternal/professional distinction - I think the point rather was that the two went together. I have more sources, especially for illuminators, I haven't checked yet. Johnbod 14:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

They're discussed quite distinctly in some of the literature I cited, and in Antwerp stuff I've read in the past but don't have on hand at the moment. I didn't initially add it because I didn't think there would be so much general guild information. But now that it's an issue, I'll try and add a few sources when I get a chance. --Stomme 15:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, I see we've sort of approached this from two slightly different angles, which somewhat explains the question whether Antwerp is the oldest. I was focusing on the "Guild of St Luke"—the painters' guild— but not necessarily in general terms on guilds to which painters belonged that might or might not have been that particular guild. I think its fine if their is a broad approach, but I think that explains some of the discrepancies. For instance, in my approach, even though the Worshipful Company of Painter-Stainers represented painters and even honored St Luke on certain days, I don't have an indication of it actually being a "Guild of St Luke". My changes in the Italian section were somewhat concerned with explaining how guilds and societies dedicated to the saint coexisted or merged. As far as I know, however, the strict Guild of St Luke is primarily Netherlandish (and region). --Stomme 15:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am broadening the treatment for now - at some future point there might be enough to have two articles. There was a Roman "Compagna di San Lucca" & a Parisian "compagnie..", but I don't know much about them. The crucial point is if, and when, the local authorities authorised any group to regulate certain areas of trade, which in many cases seems only to have arrived long after they were founded. Many medieval bodies corporate contained a saints name tucked away in their full title (there were legal reasons for this, as often the saint technically owned the assets of the body, which was useful in the absence of corporate or trust law) which might or might not be used in their everyday title, so I not sure the presence or absence of "St Luke" in the normal title is the defining factor. That seems to have been a general pattern, where guilds in London, Zurich & elsewhere just had utilitarian names (it seems), whilst in Italy & the Netherlands saints names were used - St Eloi for the goldsmiths etc. Since Netherlandish Guilds of St Luke evidently contained trades seen as related, such as house-painting in Haarlem & saddlemaking in Bruges (also in Zurich), I don't really see them as a distinct phenomenon within the pattern of guilds, although the late diffusion of them to smaller towns might be - but I saw Aberdeen had a painters guild in the C17th - I wonder when that was founded? Johnbod 16:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Members

We need a list of the guild member, I would say. Here's a suggestion (taken from it:Sint-Lucasgilde#Anversa):

   * Pieter Coecke van Ælst (1527?)
   * Pieter Bruegel the Elder (1551)
   * Gillis Coignet (Doyen - 1585)
   * Peter Paul Rubens (1598)
   * Frans Snyders (1602)
   * Jacob van Hulsdonck (1608)
   * Peeter Snayers (1612)
   * Adriaen van Utrecht (1625)
   * Pieter Bruegel the Younger (1625)
   * Theodore Rombouts
   * Erasmus Quellinus II (1633/1634)
   * Jan van Kessel (1645)
   * Jan Pauwel Gillemans the Elder (1647/1648)

...but no sources are provided... --Scriberius (talk) 00:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Since almost all practising artists in the major areas HAD to be members, I don't think we should knock ourselves out making lists, which will inevitably be misleadingly incomplete. Johnbod (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Pic

According to it.wikipedia in one of these houses was the "HQ" of the guild located. Is that true? --Scriberius (talk) 00:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

File:Guild of Saint Luke.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Guild of Saint Luke.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Guild of Saint Luke.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 00:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Guild of Saint Luke. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927234127/http://www.codart.nl/publications/show/chapter/10/ to http://www.codart.nl/publications/show/chapter/10/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:54, 11 January 2018 (UTC)